Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??

Subject: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 01:58 PM

I have been given an amazing new laptop for Christmas. It's a Mac, and I've always had a PC before. I have many, many files on Noteworthy Composer, but would like to convert them if possible to a program that would work on the Mac. I know there are other ways to do it, like putting a partition on the new computer, but if possible I'd like to get Finale or something instead.

Any ideas??

Thanks in advance.

Allison

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 04:15 PM

As I understand it, Noteworthy Composer can hold files in a compressed format that they do not publish the specification for, so there are few if any other programs that can read them. You can save Noteworthy files in an uncompressed format that quite a lot of programs can read, including some for the Mac. So much depends on how exactly the 'many, many' files are currently stored. Your first step might have to be to convert them all to an uncompresse format.

Anyone who actually owns Noteworthy Composer can probably correct my understanding!

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 05:36 PM

Allison

Have a look at this post here: Noteworthy to MusicXML, where a user has a link to a NWC to MusicXML converter. If it does a reasonable job and you're intending to use Finale, then I'd use it to convert to XML which you can then import to Finale.

(Don't worry about the second post re zlib.dll. If it's the compression library you can get it from Zlib (check with the author that that's the missing file).

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 05:55 PM

Via XML you can use Sibelius too, though I don't know about the ins and outs of importing specific programmes into it - usually they're pretty import-friendly though. I love Sibelius and use it on both Mac and Windows - they're fully compatible and I bounce back and forth between them like a tennis ball. You might check out Sib's website before making a final decision:

http://www.sibelius.com/home/index_flash.html

Also, there are ways of running Windows on your Mac laptop WITHOUT partitioning the hard drive (you'd need VMware or Parallels software - too long to explain here but it can be done); though this is not necessary for Sibelius, which will work fine on Macs (and probably Finale would too).

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 06:31 PM

Both Finale and Sibelius have MusicXML import directly these days from the File menu (or equivalent wizards). In the old days you needed the Dolet XML plug in to do it (and you might need it for full support of all XML features; I don't think all of MusicXML is supported in the built in versions, but I haven't checked the level of support recently).

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: MaineDog
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 06:50 PM

Allison,
Be warned: Finale is difficult to learn. Although it is powerful, the user interface is anything but simple. I bought a copy of Finale 2007 recently and I must say I still prefer Encore for most of what I do, Including 8 parts of Bach. The new Gvox-Encore is out, and it will accept XML files (they say). If noteworthy can output XML, you should be able to move your stuff over. I am still struggling with these programs, and I'll kep you posted, about my progress, if you like.

Jim

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 07:05 PM

A correction to my remarks above on the compressed formats: some tools I have do object to the Noteworthy compressed format but the main one I use (Harmony Assistant) can read those files. That being so, there are probably other programs around that can read the compressed format.

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: MaineDog
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 07:59 PM

Actually, it seems that the Encore V5 is necessary to import/export XML files, and it won't be out until sometime in January. See www.gvox.com
MD

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 09:17 PM

The little experience I have with Finale makes me agree with MaineDog - its learning curve is VERY steep (although this was quite a time ago and I never really "lived" with it). I did have Encore for a few years, but I like Sibelius much better - neither is terribly difficult to learn and both are quite intuitive; but where Sibelius wins is in its flexibility. It leaves you freer to make changes afterwards, re-jig pages and generally mess around and rearrange if you need to, whereas Encore - at least in the days when I was using it - was quite a lot more restrictive and you had to pre-plan to a greater extent. However (and it's a big "however") that was years ago and much could have improved since then. Encore was at that time marketed by Passport Software and in fact the company went out of business (at least I think they did) so it's probably unfair to judge by a past product. GVOX seem to be the current manufacturers.

Certainly Encore appears to be cheaper - the choice probably depends upon how complicated your scores are and what you need to do with them. Sibelius gets my firm vote for its flexibility, ease of use and intuivite learning. But cheap it ain't, even with the academic discount (if you're eligible for one). You can download a free trial version, which seems like a good, risk-free way of getting acquainted with it. (No, I'm not receiving a sales commission...) You can probably do that with the others too, or get a demo disc so you could compare these programmes before committing yourself.

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: MaineDog
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 09:58 AM

I thought about Sibelius, but I could not get their demos to run, on either of two different computers, even after I downloaded the extra stuff it demands, like a new windows installer, and a new dotnet. (in addition, installing the new dotnet caused other software to fail -- )
Now that I have inhereted 3 more computers, perhaps I can dedicate one to Sibelius.

I currently use Encore version 4.1 from Passport. It works for me, but I know that it does not run fully under Windows 2000 -- the lyrics and text do not work right. Version 4.5 works, but I didn't get it because I don't need those features.

I also use SmartScore X for scanning, but I don't like its printed music. Hence the temptation to move scanned music to Finale or Encore. I think Encore has better music engraving than Finale, but my older Encore can only import midi files, so I lose all the formatting I did in Smartscore when I import something.

I may get Encore version 5 for the xml file capability after I get to try their demo in January.
MD

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 12:26 PM

Those hassles with the demo (even a CD?) sound strange! But I just went straight for buying the programme itself, so I bypassed that stage and never experienced problems. In any case, whatever software Allison chooses will have to work on a Mac. Which brings up a question for her:

Allison, what OS are you running? Presume it's the new one, Leopard, if the puter was a Christmas gift. Doublecheck with the software companies that they're fully up to speed with it (they should be, but you never know). Otherwise, keep an eye on the websites and wait for a bit till everything settles down - new OS's often seem to have teething problems (this is putting it mildly in Vista's case).

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 12:42 PM

Just for info if you're new to Apple: The PREVIOUS operating system to Leopard (called Tiger) is designated 10.4.11; Leopard will be 10.5.whatever - and these all come under the OS X (Operating System 10) umbrella. These numbers will help you identify your version precisely, if you need to.

10.4.11 is the last Tiger upgrade (unless there's been a new one very recently). If you're not sure what OS or grade you have, you can identify it by clicking on the little blue apple icon in the upper left corner of your screen, and then on "About this Mac".

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 01:17 PM

On the main programs Sibelius and Finale, Sibelius still costs rather more than Finale. However both of these systems have cut-down versions available. Sibelius G7 and Finale Guitar, although both nominally guitar-oriented versions are general notation programs. Sibelius also has it's Instrumental Teacher's version. All of these cost considerably less than the full system, although with some features removed. If you are thinking of one of these, it might be worth while looking at the other versions to see if they will do what you want.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 05:04 PM

Allison, I used to own Finale and found it user-unfriendly. I now use Sibelius for everything and find it easy to use now, particularly if you have a keyboard MIDI connection. It's really fast for lead sheets and arrangements and the copy looks professional and neat. I like its
guitar and related string instrument notation. It's easy to convert notes to tab for 6 string guitar, 5 string banjo, mandolin and will even do exotic instruments such as domras and balalaikas. I find it tremendously helpful in preparing songs for students. I use the top line for the tune (lead sheet form) with the chords, the second line for guitar or whatever stringed instrument notation and the third line for the tab.

I don't know Noteworthy but I do know that Sibelius will do pretty much anything you ask of it. Finale will too but it's a case of Parkinson's Law. You can really get bogged down on the commands.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 05:26 PM

Well, this is all very interesting. Thanks for all the input!
For now, I think I'm going to have the computer wizard put in a "parallel" (I KNOW I'm not phrasing that correctly!!) so I can just keep using NWC, which is what I'm comfortable with, and which has the added advantage of being where my hundreds of files already are.

This new computer, a Macbook Pro, is so massive in its scope that I'll never miss the space thus used.

But it's very helpful to see your collective ideas on other software, for when I'm ready to take the plunge!

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 09:36 PM

Make sure you're familiar with all your options: If you get a "boot camp" partition it means you will have to close down everything and reboot when switching from the Mac to the Windows side, and it will use up some of the hard drive space - but as you say, there's plenty to spare. (Also, you have to buy a copy of whichever Windows OS you're using).

If you use a "virtual machine" programme like Parallels Desktop or VMware, you don't need to reboot and can click in and out of it at will, but you may need to upgrade the memory (easy to do, though it costs, as do the programmes). Make sure to get your local tecchie to explain all the options so you make the best choice for yourself.

Best of luck - let us know how you get on -

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:05 PM

Can a MAC use MIDI? If so, save the Noteworthy piece you want to work on as a MIDI file and transfer it to the MAC.

But, if I were you, I would just keep my PC and my Noteworthy. There's no point in turning your back on years of work and comfortable habits just to please somebody who gave you a Christmas present.

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: MaineDog
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 06:06 PM

MIDI is pretty universal, and yes macs can do MIDI. The problem is that midi is notes only - you don't get any music formatting. Sometimes the key signature can be lost, or even the time signature, which usually results in a useless mess if you are trying to recover music notation.
This is the reason we want to use XML files, or perhaps FIN files, so as not to have to repeat all the editing you had to do before you could make a decent MIDI file.
MD

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 08:38 PM

Have you looked at nwc2xml?

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 11:11 PM

'The problem is that midi is notes only - you don't get any music formatting.'

i don't understand that observation. I work with MIDI's, which come in a time signature, a tempo, a key, clefs, in staves, and with the sounds of different instruments. I can change any of the above. I can write new parts and change existing notes.

How can you say you don't get any music formatting?

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 04:39 AM

MIDI implies a basic format, certainly, but no more. Repeated phrases, for example, are usually sounded out directly, rather than using the equivalent of |: :| ; since there is no concept of a 'page' in MIDI any thoughts like 'where is the best place to put a page break', 'how many systems to a page' and so on simply don't apply. Although it is possible, I have very rarely seen the sort of overall flavour of the music in MIDI that is common on sheet music: 'Majestically', 'Soothingly' and so on. Signs like mp, ff and so on are directly represented in the volume of the notes, so don't exist as separate symbols. And so on.

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 07:43 AM

Just out of curiosity, I put a few notes and bar lines in NWC. The score can be seen here

I used Noteworthy to save this as a midi file. I can show it's contents here as a csv text file:

0, 0, Header, 1, 2, 192
1, 0, Start_track
1, 0, Title_t, "Test midi"
1, 0, Text_t, "By NoteWorthy Composer"
1, 0, Copyright_t, "Copyright � 2007 NoteWorthy Software, Inc."
1, 0, Copyright_t, "All Rights Reserved"
1, 0, Text_t, "Generated by NoteWorthy Composer"
1, 0, Key_signature, 2, "major"
1, 0, Time_signature, 4, 2, 24, 8
1, 0, End_track
2, 0, Start_track
2, 0, MIDI_port, 0
2, 0, Title_t, "Staff"
2, 0, Control_c, 0, 7, 127
2, 0, Control_c, 0, 10, 64
2, 0, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 110
2, 94, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 0
2, 96, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 110
2, 190, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 0
2, 192, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 110
2, 352, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 0
2, 384, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 110
2, 478, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 0
2, 480, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 110
2, 542, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 0
2, 544, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 110
2, 606, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 0
2, 608, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 110
2, 670, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 0
2, 672, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 110
2, 832, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 0
2, 864, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 110
2, 958, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 0
2, 960, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 110
2, 1022, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 0
2, 1024, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 110
2, 1086, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 0
2, 1088, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 110
2, 1150, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 0
2, 1152, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 110
2, 1246, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 0
2, 1248, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 110
2, 1342, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 0
2, 1344, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 110
2, 1504, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 0
2, 1536, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 110
2, 1630, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 0
2, 1632, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 110
2, 1694, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 0
2, 1696, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 110
2, 1758, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 0
2, 1760, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 110
2, 1822, Note_on_c, 0, 62, 0
2, 1824, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 110
2, 1984, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 0
2, 2016, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 110
2, 2110, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 0
2, 2112, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 110
2, 2174, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 0
2, 2176, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 110
2, 2238, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 0
2, 2240, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 110
2, 2302, Note_on_c, 0, 64, 0
2, 2302, End_track
0, 0, End_of_file

I then used Noteworthy to open the midi file it created. I stuck with the nwc defaults when doing it. The score it produced in importing it's own exported file can be seen here

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 08:14 AM

Presume it's over-literally interpreting the rhythm - ??? (Did you input it in realtime?) That's the kind of thing Finale used to do, at least in the bad old days. Took me longer to edit my piece than it would have taken to write it out in quill and hand-made ink (including drawing my own 5 parallel stave lines).

I think Allison's idea of having a Windows component on her Mac so she can use NWC in the format she's familiar with is probably the least hassley solution. (It will enable her to run other Windows software too.) Then, if she later decides she wants to, she can get one of the professional score-writing programmes which work on both Apple & Microsoft platforms and import her NWC into it, install the new programme on BOTH sides, and shuttle back and forth between them via a memory stick (if the drive is partitioned, otherwise not necessary). This is pretty much what I do, and it works a treat. But, really, if she's happy with Noteworthy, why change to another programme? You know what they say about things that ain't broke...

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 08:21 AM

No Bonnie, I entered those notes on a score. No tricks of odd timings in any of that.

The reasons for the differences are the midi does not have repeats. It does not have bar lines so can't cater for the odd 2 notes at the start. While it has worked out some note lengths from the midi note on/note off events, it has failed to detect some of these note on/off sequences are triplets.

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 08:38 AM

Of course with the midi not containing the notation information needed and programs having to make their own interpretations, different programs can display the same midi differently. Here are 2 more attempts from the Noteworthy exported midi.

RoseGarden
NoteEdit

I'd guess the upmarket programs like Finale would make better attempts than anything I have but that is just a guess...

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 08:46 AM

I was just reading somewhere about RoseGarden, from someone who really thought it was brilliant, but: isn't it only for Linux users? Got that impression but can't remember where I saw it, so I'm not sure -

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: MaineDog
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 08:51 AM

I have reasonably good luck transferring music in 2/4 or 4/4 via midi,
but whenever I tried something in 12/8 -- for get it. The receiving midi program - in my case old Encore, cannot seem to fit the notes into place. Typically, the first measure or two come thru ok, but then I begin to get strange errors of timing. This is odd because I am not talking about midi files made by my poor performance, but by carefully editing a scanned score. I have tried using different quantization settings and so on, but then, one can lose the short notes. Another factor is whether the receiver is told to recognize triplets or not.

Another confusion can result when the music has a partial measure pick-up at the beginning. This sometimes causes all the bar lines to be in the wrong place--a problem not easily fixed in most programs.
MD

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 09:00 AM

It's only for Linux, Bonnie. I don't know if there would be a chance would be of getting it working under OS/X.

I haven't really used it yet. At first glance I think I prefer the old version of Cakewalk I used to use on Win but I might grow to like it and I will be able to use it if I do start dabbling with midi again...

...Maybe next year. I'm toying with the idea of going dual Linux boot on my PC and having one Linux installation for general office and my odd bits of development and the other more geared for multimedia. If I do, on the multimedia side, I might end up with my usual favourite, OpenSuse, but Ubuntu Studio is one of possible candidates already set up that way.

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: MaineDog
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 12:21 PM

Jon, do you know where I can get Ubuntu Studio on a DVD, its too big for me to download. I tried Rosegarden on Fedora Core 6 but it wouldn't do midi because the kernel was too slow.
MD

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 01:23 PM

The cheapest alternative would be to use Bryan Creer's Noteworthy to ABC converter (shareware, I think) which runs on Windows, and then use BarFly on the Mac (free for a reasonably-featured version, shareware for the whole thing).

Bryan posts here, I forget his ID.

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: Janet Elizabeth
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 04:12 PM

I've been looking for something for the Mac too. Finale is too expensive for simple score-writing (actually it's for copying a hand-written score someone gave me).   I haven't tried it yet but ...

...there appears to be a free, simple, score-writing aid from the Finale people called Finale Notepad. Currently at http://www.finalemusic.com/products/finale-notepad/resources.

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Oct 14 - 07:42 PM

I use Finale Notepad on Mac: originally had the free version but then upgraded to the very cheap next stage up ( under 10 US$ ). Has its limitations e.g. Can't change key or time signature halfway through a tune. Several friends have recommended the free Musescore, where you can do such things.

Subject: RE: Tech: Convert Noteworthy to Finale or??
From: Mark Clark
Date: 29 Oct 14 - 11:32 AM

I've never been a Noteworthy user so I can't speak to converting NW scores but I've used MuseScore for a number of years and like it very much. I've used Finale and still have an up-to-date copy of Sibelius but I use MuseScore more often. One reason is that MuseScore has a nice way of quickly entering notes without being a keyboard player. But I think MuseScore printed output looks nicer than Finale ever did. It's close to LilyPond which looks great but has no GUI and is very time-consuming to master.

If you're more interested in tablature then you might want to check out MUP (MUsic Program). It involves coding the music sort of like ABC and it looks great when printed.

      - Mark