OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 12:22 PM

I expect the US government is just happy to see the Kenyans practising "Western Democracy" - as they know it.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 11:31 AM

Kenya is all about stealing an election. Something that could never happen in the USA, of course.

Here's a bit from the story in this morning's Guardian (and note the last paragraph especially):

...A joint statement by the British Foreign Office and the Department for International Development cited "real concerns" over irregularities, while international observers refused to declare the election free and fair.

The European Union's chief observer, Alexander Graf Lambsdorff, said that in one constituency his monitors saw official results for Kibaki that were 25,000 votes lower than the figure subsequently announced by the electoral commission. "Because of this and other observed irregularities, doubt remains as to the accuracy of the result of the presidential election as announced today," he said.

But the US, which cooperates closely with the Kibaki government on anti-terrorism matters, congratulated the president on his re-election and said it supported the electoral commission's decision. Robert McInturff, a state department spokesman, said: "The United States congratulates the winners and is calling for calm, and for Kenyans to abide by the results declared by the election commission..."

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 10:58 AM

Well they need to get that kid back to Oxford immediately.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 08:53 AM

Alton-

"Pakistan last week, Kenya today. When will the western world realise that the mentality of these countries is third world and no amount of talking or throwing money at them will ever relieve their problems."

Yes, why don't you retreat to some hole and shovel in the dirt afterwards (no easy task!).

However, I do agree that there are no simplistic solutions to what is happening in Pakistan, Kenya, and many other countries on this planet.

The Bhutto family does seem to be exercising some positioning strategy. According to the papers I've read this morning, it was the husband, Arif Ali Zardari, who was designated in Benazir's will to be her sole successor and lead the PPP party. He in turn appointed their son Bilawal Bhutto-Zardari chairman of the PPP, while presiding over day to day affairs of the Party until the son completes his education at Oxford. The Party's vice-chairman Makhdoom Amin Fahim would be the actual candidate for prime minister if they win the national elections, if and when they take place. This strategy might even work given the surge of sympathy for the Bhutto family, and criticism that would be focused on the financial manipulations alleged to have been orchestrated by Zardari might be deflected.

That's a lot of factual material, and a few assumptions, to mull over. But how about a few more remarks about Obama, just to keep things stirring?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: GUEST,Alton
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 08:25 AM

Pakistan last week, Kenya today. When will the western world realise that the mentality of these countries is third world and no amount of talking or throwing money at them will ever relieve their problems.

Regarding Africa and India, leave them to it and let's get on with looking after our own country. Health and education are simply a disgrace in Britain while our government pours billions into countries that neither acknowledge or show gratitude for our hard earned taxes arriving daily at their doorsteps.

Charity begins at home I say.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: 282RA
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 09:35 PM

That's what remains to be seen, I guess. I don't know why they would lie and expect everyone to believe it without giving anyone a chance to examine the body.

But the footage clearly shows no bomb threw her into anything and it sure looks to me like she was shot and collapsed into the car. Meanwhile more experienced people have looked at the footage and said the same thing--that she was shot, fell down into the car and then the bomb goes off.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 09:28 PM

"...Joe Lieberman being a Jew who DOES have close ties to Israel doesn't seem to rile anybody--but me..."

                     Me too - 282RA


                     But why is the government trying to cover for the gunman. Didn't he die as well, and if he did, it would be just like Ruby shooting Oswald. It would cover everybody's asses.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: 282RA
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 09:14 PM

To get off the subject a bit, Obama, to my knowledge, is NOT a Muslim. It would be a damned shame for America if he loses the nomination for that reason. If they just don't think he has what it takes, okay, but if people vote against him because of some stupid rumor (and even if he were Muslim with no ties to any Muslim nation, that should not be a factor anymore than Joe Lieberman being a Jew who DOES have close ties to Israel doesn't seem to rile anybody--but me) that will be yet another black mark on America.

But back on the subject--it now appears that Bhutto was shot after all. As you all know, the Pakistani govt insists that she died hitting her head on a handle. I didn't buy it when I first heard it because a surgeon had already examined her and found bulletholes. How could he be mistaken about that??

New footage, however, shows that she was shot first, collapsed INTO the car and only THEN does the bomb go off. Furthermore, the handle she allegedly hit her head on so hard that it killed her is pristine. No blood on it, not a speck.

When the assassin fires, you can see her hair and veil move or jerk from the impact of the bullets and she collapses down into the car.
I don't see how the govt can maintain that she hit her head on a handle or that the blast knocked her into it. This new footage proves conclusively that it was neither.

God knows what the reaction will be in Pakistan.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 09:13 PM

"...which you did not preface by saying it came from Christian Radio..."

                Ron - I don't think I'm making my point. If it came from Christian Broadcasting I wouldn't know because, like I said, I don't listen to those stations. And I've conceded that any American traveling in Pakistan would need protection--okay?


    "Rig perhaps missed his point that assasinations are not entirely unknown in the US."

                Peter - Yes, I'm very much aware that Timothy McVay was, if fact, Christian. I think the guy who shot Garfield was as well.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 08:27 PM

Oh, I'm very sorry Charley. I missed the irony in the phrase on your blicky. Glad you appreciated the Tariq Ali article, as I did too (without agreeing with every word of it).

That was a good analysis by McG a number of posts back. Rig perhaps missed his point that assasinations are not entirely unknown in the US.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 08:00 PM

Rig--

Hope you told them Obama is not in fact Muslim but Christian--which he is. Did you? If they told you he was Muslim, and you did not disagree, silence consents--and you are thereby helping to spread rumors. But perhaps that doesn't bother you. It's very easy to find out the truth on this--if you haven't done so already. Unless you don't care about the truth--which is certainly possible.

And just what did you mean with your "won't need the protection" remark?--which you did not preface by saying it came from Christian Radio--if it did--actually it sounds like one of yours.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 07:08 PM

Okay McGrath--and Ron too--I'll concede, even people with cultural ties to Islam will need protection when traveling in Pakistan.


    '"...already believe Obama is Muslim".   And why do I think you are doing nothing to disabuse them?'

                I don't know why you would think that, Ron. Those folks get most of their information from Christian Broadcasting; I don't listen to it, and they won't listen to me.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 06:41 PM

"...already believe Obama is Muslim" So why would that imply he was less likely to be shot rather than more likely? Two varieties of religious fundamentalist nutcases after him instead of just one...

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 06:29 PM

Rig--

"...already believe Obama is Muslim".   And why do I think you are doing nothing to disabuse them? The question is whether you know the truth or not--and whether you enjoy spreading rumors.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: GUEST,Cruiser
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 05:28 PM

a U.S.A. style of democracy to an insanely religious country...

"Takes one to know one..."

Yes Sir, I agree.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 04:52 PM

Oh, and a number of the people I work with already believe Obama is Muslim. So the message is already out there.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 04:52 PM

Rig--

"....won't need the protection".   Pray tell, what was that supposed to mean? You're a master at dodging and weaving.

Are you sure you're not related to Bush?

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 04:40 PM

Actually, it follows completly. Say Obama is nominated, can you imagine what Limbaugh, Hannity, and the Swift-Boat bunch will do with his middle name?

                Keep in mind, a great many Americans still believe Saddam Hussein was involved in the 9/11 attacks. They still think there are weapons of mass destruction out there someplace, and Iraq was on the verge of developing an atomic bomb.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: GUEST,Aristotle
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 04:29 PM

Riginslinger – the king of the non sequitur.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 03:21 PM

a U.S.A. style of democracy to an insanely religious country...

Takes one to know one...

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 02:51 PM

Look, Ron, I didn't name the guy!

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 02:31 PM

Richard is right, Rig. Your post mentioning "Hussein" is despicable. Even if meant as humor. If it was meant to be funny, you need to get a better writer.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 12:41 PM

Riginslinger, your post (102) is simply disgraceful.

TrollGuest, Cruiser, your apparent assumption that all Pakistanis or all Muslims (not sure which you mean) are corrupt is equally disgraceful.

But if you meant all politicians, you might, statistically, have a point (grin) - Robert Marshall-Andrews excepted.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: GUEST,Cruiser
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 11:52 AM

Like her father before her, the daughter became corrupt, and so will her son with any attempt to bring a U.S.A. style of democracy to an insanely religious country like Pakistan.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 11:30 AM

Maybe rule by inheritance ain't so bad! But it isn't working too well in the White House right now, is it?

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: GUEST,Cruiser
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 10:36 AM

Yes, but Mr. Bush is not even in the same category as the 2 people I mentioned. Bush is in his own special low-level category of religious insanity and misguided self-importance of being a "war president" an agent of "god", a christian crusader of the worst kind, and "the commander".

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 10:23 AM

Some people cannot see past their own aggrandized self-importance and are willing to sacrifice others' lives to support their egos.

Um.... people like George W. Bush for instance?

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 10:04 AM

What a hell of a way to run a party, a nineteen year old son!

Of course there is our way, and participant democracy in Kenya and Russia produces curious results. Maybe rule by inheritance ain't so bad! Anyone for restoring monarchy?

One does hope for an autopsy, so as to provide some clarification of the cause of death, if not the motives of her assassins.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 09:58 AM

You've got to wonder why they would do that to the boy, and to the party.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 07:46 AM

I see that Bhutto's nineteen year old son has just been handed the job of leader of the party. I don't like to be too pessimistic, but I should think his prospects of getting a decent life insurance policy have just taken a dip. It is a chilling warning to those who persist with the fantasy of Pakistan becoming a democratic state in the forseeable future.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: 282RA
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 08:52 PM

This happened almost entirely due to Bush administration incompetence. He got us so mired down in Iraq that he neglected Afghanistan for all intents and purposes. There should be no reason the Taliban were able to stage a comeback. This was due in no small part of the Taliban have a great deal of support in outlying areas of Pakistan.

This enabled quite an anti-US sentiment to simmer and spread throughout the Pakistan-Afghanistan border which is what threatens Musharraf now. Had he not become threatened, the US wouldn't have needed to engineer a Bhutto return. Had she remained in exile, she wouldn't have been assassinated. And Pakistan wouldn't now find itself virtually crippled.

Such a "key ally" to be this incapacitated damages Middle East policy immeasurably. The US is just digging itself a deeper hole. Every time it tries to plug some leak, another just springs up somewhere else. Bush was warned that this would happen and he did not listen. And still he cannot free up troops in Iraq to concentrate on the Afghanistan-Pakistan problem. NATO seems to be loosing heart in the fight.

Bush and his circus totally underestimated the fight in Afghanistan. They thought it would be easy and that they could cencentrate the bulk of their forces in Iraq. Now Afghanistan is resurging with Pakistan pretty much out of the picture while Iraq slowly simmers down but we don't dare siphon off troops there and send them to Afghanistan and we have no new troops to send since our army is depleted.

They have bitten off way more than they can chew. We're like Nicholas Leeson who destroyed Barings Bank over a weekend of speculating the bank's assets on the Asian stock market--the more he bet, the more he lost; the more he lost, the more he bet trying to win it all back. By Monday morning, there was nothing left to bet. So goes Bush administration foreign policy. We mismanaged too many large stakes early on and lost. Now we're betting the farm trying to win it all in one fell swoop. Not going to happen. It never does.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 03:44 PM

I'd think it was immaterial whether she died from concussion from force of the blast pushing her against the lever of the sunroof--or more directly from the blast or shrapnel. If the blast had not gone off, she'd be alive. And to say, as the Pakistan regime now says, that if she had not stuck her head up out of the car she'd be alive, is saying that she had to refrain from direct campaigning--which is always more effective than staying cocooned inside your bullet-proof vehicle. Of course the regime would say that--they only wanted her to campaign enough to give legitimacy to Musharraf's planned win.

Interestingly enough, from what I now read, her death has not helped the regime's position, since many Pakistanis, like some Mudcatters, believe the regime is implicated in her death, whether through sins of commission or omission.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 02:22 PM

"In fact, the official story from the government at the moment is, she was never really shot, she bumped her head trying to get back in the car, and the bump on the head killed her."

The official story seems to be that either as she was attempting to avoid being shot, or that when she was trust forward by the concussion of the bomb going off, she fractured her skull by striking her head against the handle of the car's sun-roof.

But—

I heard on the news this morning (NPR) that someone (a relative, I believe) who was preparing the body for burial, said that she definitely had a bullet-wound in the back of her head.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 02:08 PM

Obama won't need the protection. His middle name is Hussein.

Which if anything puts him at greater risk.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: GUEST,Cruiser
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 01:43 PM

The fact still remains, Ms. Bhutto was as corrupt as the other Pakistani leaders; she was just a bit less corrupt regarding human rights violations.

Although this will seem very callous, she was as foolishly "brave" as General Custer was. Some people cannot see past their own aggrandized self-importance and are willing to sacrifice others' lives to support their egos.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 01:22 PM

'"But they'd better ensure there is pretty good security for her and for Obama in the coming months and even years "'


                      Obama won't need the protection. His middle name is Hussein.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 11:30 PM

Mainly, Hillary will benefit because her strong suit is supposedly "experience"--if you don't look too closely.

It's really stretching it to imagine a sympathy vote for her as a woman, or because of the strong feeling against her--which on the Democratic side is due primarily to her perceived aiding of Bush's foreign adventures, and on the Republican side is totally independent of Bhutto.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 10:21 PM

100

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 09:46 PM

"assassinations don't just happen in Pakistan"
Too true McGrath!
"But they'd better ensure there is pretty good security for her and for Obama in the coming months and even years "
Too true as well! However, each stage of security removes such people from contact with the electorate. Democracy can only suffer from this as well. Bhutto accepted the threat in order to foster an understanding of democracy among her people.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 09:26 PM

PeterK-

I don't have aproblem with the "Tariq Ali piece" linked above, and encourage everyone who is really interested in understanding what has happened to read it. I doubt that many Mudcatters will do that. It's much more satisfying to just react to international events with hardly a clue of what is going on. I often do that myself.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 08:54 PM

Invade Pakistan? Not too likely - they actually do have Weapons of Mass Destruction. And an invasion would probably ensure that those were in the hands of the very people who would use them, and not just in Pakistan.

I think it more likely that the USA will do whatever it can to try to ensure there is a strong authoritarian government that can sit on things - and only too likely that this will fail, and that there will be that there might be a strong populist government swept to power, which would be strongly nationalist and probably anti-Western, at least in rhetoric. Rather akin to what happened in Iran a generation back.

And in the USA itself I can see Hilary Clinton benefiting, with some of the hate against her looking a bit too close to what was said about Benazir Bhutto by her opponents.

But they'd better ensure there is pretty good security for her and for Obama in the coming months and even years - assassinations don't just happen in Pakistan.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 07:29 PM

Charley, I read that Tariq Ali piece when it was published a week or so ago. What's your problem with it? Too well informed?

Giok said: "If there is the SLIGHTEST chance of the militants seizing power in Pakistan, the US and her allies will be in there quicker than lightning." But how can America charge in anywhere, when they are already struggling to maintain troop levels in Afghanistan and Iraq? And WHAT allies?

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Greg B
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 07:10 PM

She was a flicker of civilization in a society of savages.

To say nothing of having a face that radiated light and
beauty, which probably didn't hurt.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:37 PM

Ron - I know they have elephants in India, do they have them in Pakistan as well? Maybe the thread hasn't crept as far as we thought.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:26 PM

Rig--

You're right about Iowa (though it has nothing to do with the thread). The reason is obvious also. Something on the order of 40% of the usual Republican caucus vote in Iowa are voters who call themselves Christian conservative. As a Republican running in Iowa, to not appeal to those voters is to write off about 40%.

This is also the reason the Republicans will have big trouble if they pick Giuliani as the nominee--those true believers are also the ones who are willing to man phone banks, canvass, put up signs in their yards, drive people to the polls. etc.--and they won't do any of that for Giuliani--he's too moderate in social views for them.

The question is whether they would do it for McCain--whether having a certified national hero as the nominee--as opposed to yet another draft-dodger (Giuliani)-- would offset his moderate social views enough to make them proud to support him.

But it's just possible this is thread creep.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:10 PM

Robo - Yes she was all of those things.


                  Don - Somebody in Alabama or Arizona must be snapping their fingers, because all of the elephants seem to be in Iowa scrapping for the nomination.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:16 PM

I have a lot to say on the subject: "Religion-positive or negative?" but that is for a different thread than this.

I was a member of the international student community at my university. I remember taking an attractive Pakistani coed for her first motorcycle ride ("Please if you have an accident, make sure to kill me! I don't want to be disfigured!") We had a nice, SAFE, ride on my used but maintained 750, and during lunch we delved into politics, and in her conversation I realized that it was a matter of fact to her that political winners jailed and executed the losers, because if they didn't the same would happen to them. This was a revelation to my young ignorant self.

Much later, when ul Haq planned to execute Benazir's fater, Ali Bhutto, the student association attempted to however weakly delay the act by inviting him to be a guest speaker (he had a past affiliation with our school). The Indian Student Association quickly and decisively put the kibosh on any such action, however ineffective it would have been.

Anyhow, I had a keen sense of loss when I heard the news yesterday morning. I doubt she was perfect, but she was clearly one of "the good guys" in that environment, she showed grace, class and courage in a tough place.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:00 PM

In that case, to blame the religion is still doesn't follow. It's the whakked-out weirdo who killed her, not his religion, even if that's what he thought it told him to do.

The "Son of Sam" killer some years back said that God told him to kill the people he killed. The man was insane. Whatever he thought was talking to him, it sure as hell wasn't God.

You could hardly blame religion for some psycho's delusions. Or some political assassin's motives.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 02:47 PM

Okay, in an effort to avoid being labeled a perpetual finger snapper, I'll say this: at this point in time, we don't really know the motive of the fellow who killed her. In fact, the official story from the government at the moment is, she was never really shot, she bumped her head trying to get back in the car, and the bump on the head killed her.
                   So we'll wait and see if somebody claims credit for the killing, and if-and-when they do, we'll see if some whakked-out religious weirdo did it. If, when all that has been accomplished, we can be reasonably certain that a whakked-out religious weirdo killed her, we can conclude that religion is dangerous, and she was a victim of religion.
                   Until that time, we're only guessing and we really don't know.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 02:34 PM

Jeez, Rig, you must be really desparate!

"She's dead! What more evidence do you need?"

That's the same kind of logic as the guy who kept snapping his fingers all the time. A fellow walked up to him and said, "You know, that's getting really annoying. Why do you keep doing that?"

"Because," said the finger-snapper, "it keeps the wild elephants away."

"Keeps the wild elephants away? But there are no wild elephants within thousands of miles of here!"

"See?" said the finger-snapper, "It really works!"

Don Firth