Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 03:12 PM

Yikes. Must stop clearing my private data, as Firefox calls it. It seems to throw me off Mudcat!

---

I've received a number of complaints about this thread. It's one of many nasty threads we have, usually dominated by the same little group of nasty people.
Frankly, I don't know what to do about threads like this. I don't want to get involved in thses squabbles and I think any effort at intervention would be futile. Besides that, I just don't want to read all this crap. I'd start a thread to discuss how to handle this sort of thing, but a thread like that would end up in more squabbling. If you have opinions or suggestion on how we should deal with this animosity, contact me by e-mail or personal message.
I'm going to close this thread for now and let people cool down. If you want to continue the discussion, start another thread and use a civil tone.
-Joe Offer-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 03:08 PM

And to you, Dave. Mine was a little French number called Longue Bastide that I've sadly renamed 'Long Bastard'...

Friendship and honour uniting and flourishing 'twixt both sides the Irwell! Whatever next?

Cheers,

Nigel

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 01:39 PM

I happened to pop back in after eating some very good, rare beef, with potatos roasted in duck fat and steamed cabbage with leaks, all washed down with a rather tasty Rioja so I suspect our moods are well matched, Nigel:-)

Have a wonderful year and I look forward to the new threads.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 01:05 PM

My oh my oh my.

This could have been an interesting, informative and evah so erudite thread about:

i) The recording process and its role in/relationship to f*lk music;
ii)The question of whether tradarts should recieve state funding and if so how and for what;
iii) both of the above.

At times it has even threatened to be! Unfortunately it seems to have turned into an attempt to give poor Mr Polshaw a pasting for having the temerity to start the discussion in the first place.

Whats all that about, then? Time to abandon ship, methinks. In any case, I'm listening to PJD's 'Flat Earth', have a venison stew bubbling away on the stove and a decent bottle of red open, so I'm in far too good a mood for all this. May start a couple of new, rancour-free threads aabout the key issues being ignored here, though, in a while.

Happy New Year!

Nigel

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 05:27 AM

Happy new year all:-)

Thanks for enlightening me Rumncoke. Like I said earlier I could well have got the wrong end of the stick and, once again, apologies for misinterpreting your intentions. I still stand by my argument though. Even though it may not have been you saying it in this instance, I will always disagree with anyone saying that music should just be allowed to be changed and 'improved' regardless. More often than not changes to the composers intentions add nothing. Look at this thread as an example. I interpreted your words to mean something different and it seems to have attracted a whole host of unsavoury posting for what appears to be no apparant reason. What if I would have misinterpreted one of your pieces of composed music in the same way? It would certainly have become worse than the original!

And I hope I take the term 'average man' in the context I believe it was intended and treat it as the compliment it seems to be. Much as I would also prefer to be naive than manipulative:-) BTW - is it white or dark rum? I love the dark navy rum myself and had more than a couple of glasses of 'Pussers' last night.

Melissa. I did say I may not be courteous next time but what the heck, It is a new year and a time for forgiveness and all that. If you feel offended or slighted in anyway by me feel free to PM me. But if you have nothing possitive to add to the thread then just don't post to it. Easy.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Melissa
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 06:52 PM

Happy New Year, Rumncoke.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Rumncoke
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 06:34 PM

Oh dear - I ache from laughing - what a hoot!!

Dave - I think that everything you assumed about what I wrote is entirely wrong. Please don't let that concern you in the slightest. It puts you fairly and squarely in the situation of the average man.

I could go with believably naive - yes, I could live with that.

And - to everyone - I hope that all that you seek out to enjoy, where ever and when ever, is to your satisfaction, whatever type of performance, at any level of competence.

Just don't try to go through a hot summer without a fridge.

Ha - half an hour to go - I shall now prepare the makings of a glass of my namesake and await the New Year with my customary mixture of hope and nostalgia.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Melissa
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 03:47 PM

I suspect the mysterious characteristic you've seen in me and defined as 'sophistication' is probably more accurately called Maturity, Dave. The confusion of terms probably comes from the introduction of a rarer quality known as Discretion.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 11:43 AM

A pretty professional recording and musician all the same;-) Didn't fully get it but I am part way into the Mahogany celebrations! Probably my last post of the year.

I like that bit about how recordings should operate. Very apt indeed.

Cheers and a happy new year.

Dave

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 11:27 AM

Personally, I go to folk clubs & singarounds to avoid professionals.

And let recordings operate more on the level of document that product, though very often the one becomes the other in terms of cultural heritage.

Otherwise, I watched this earlier on and I'm still smiling:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aHE6AL3BEYQ

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 10:21 AM

Now then, hopefully having got back to some sort of order...

Couple of points made. What can we do to ensure the continuity of good music without handing it over to the TV and pop media? I think Diane had a couple of suggestions. Any more?

Is there any way to get the rank and file to accept that, while old uncle Fred very rightfuly has his place, there are better things about?

I can enjoy even the odd poor performances at clubs, particularly if I have paid only a couple of quid to listen to amateurs, but I enjoy far more the festival and concert performances of the true professionals. When we do get those pro's at the clubs how do we ensure that they are paid a proper rate?

and, back to the opening post, who agrees that music with a structure and a history can be as enjoyable as the Avant Garde. You don't need to 'break any barriers' to be good. I accept that you don't need to rigidly abide by the Copper family songbook either but surely there is a place for all?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 10:11 AM

Melissa. I did say I would only explain that one more time but in your case I will make an exception.

The thread you clipped was off-topic by the time it was closed, and if you have points that you feel need to be made in this one, it would have been sensible for you to have made them clear when you decided you weren't done.

In my first post I explained it was from another, now closed, thread and I explained why I disagreed with it. How did I fail your, obviously far more sophisticated than mine, expectations?

It certainly shouldn't have lasted long enough for the imbecilic slams on me or anybody else to have been aired.

Examples please. I have seen no personal attacks apart from the ones stemming from your own keyboard. In fact, moving back a line...

Nothing is gained, nothing is said, and there's no reason for them to exist.

Well, Melissa, if you feel that is the case then why carrying on posting to it? Particularly seeing as you are the only one who is gaining nothing and adding nothing of any quality.

Now, I really am done explaining myself. The next reply may not be as courteous.

Don't slam th edoor on the way out please.

Cheers

Dave.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 10:07 AM

If you took the mothballs out you might be able to pronounce "Americans" in a more recognizable fashion, Diane. Your generalizations and put-downs serve no purpose.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 09:00 AM

Got to try this, though I'll use a dumped harmonium rather than my violin which is the only article of value I own.

Actually, I think I saw this performance at a Hammersmith gay bar before it became a pole-dancing joint, despite John Humphrys leading a campaign against the change of use.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 08:49 AM

I once saw a naked lady violinist pissing in her fiddle as part of a piece of performance art; she then attempted to play a series of fragments torn from a copy of O'Neill's and hung on a branch of what I at first took to be hawthorn, but was later told was, in fact, blackthorn. Either way, most of these fragments were set on fire by the candles she used to illuminate the performance. The more the piss slopped out the f-holes, so the wetter her body became as she pranced widdershins around the blackthorn bough, playing ever more furiously on the barely resonating strings.

Erudite folkies in the audience could be heard muttering things like: "Banish Misfortune", "The Bantry Lasses", "Father Fielding's Favourite", and "Ah, Sure, Such a Pair!" as the appropriate fragment was played.

I wonder, do people still do such things? Maybe I should do a search on YouTube...

(No videos found for 'pissing in a fiddle')

Ah well, we live in hope, eh?

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 08:15 AM

The closed thread was about a composed piece of art music being sampled for a tellyad for rubbish products. Nothing to do with "f*lk".

A pretentiously naive quote from someone from the horse tendency labouring under the assumption that "all music is f*lk" and absolutely everyone including Uncle Fred has the right to bugger it up is used to continue the discussion as the 'harmonium' thread has been closed, I think because someone who doesn't know me at all called me 'an old trout'.

The only 'juvenile exhibitionism' displayed in this thread has been a couple of Murkans throwing their copies of Rise Up Singing out of their prams because they fail to recognise the need (in their own land) for:

(a) the tradition to be respected while conventions might be broken and

(b) the tradarts to be properly recognised and funded.

This thread is far from being a 'dud'. I thank Dave for bringing the discussion to it and Nigel for his insightful contributions.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Melissa
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 07:41 AM

The thread you clipped was off-topic by the time it was closed, and if you have points that you feel need to be made in this one, it would have been sensible for you to have made them clear when you decided you weren't done.
As it is, you began with a partial clip which wasn't yours. I'm simply vaguely interested in why anyone would think that was appropriate.

Sinister plots require forethought and a certain amount of logic. Neither of which have been shown by the main contributers to this current nonsensical display, but if you feel that your axe has been adequately ground, I'm happy for you.

Juvenile exhibitions like this thread are as pointless as pissing in a fiddle. Nothing is gained, nothing is said, and there's no reason for them to exist.

This thread should have been closed as soon as you started with an unattributed quote. It certainly shouldn't have lasted long enough for the imbecilic slams on me or anybody else to have been aired.

If starting duds is one of your simple pleasures, you've done well.
Congratulations, and thanks for taking the time to answer my question.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 05:57 AM

Dave, was this what you intended when you clipped that portion from the previous thread?

I am not sure what the 'this' you are referring to is, Melissa! I did already say, quite early on, that I started this thread because I had something to say about the clipped piece but could not do so on the thread in question because it had been closed. In my opinion it should not have been closed while people were still discussing the topic, but that is only my opinion and I will go with the decision of the management.

It has been suggested that I may have read too much into the clip and, just in case I did, I apologised. But I have already said I do not think that was the case, along with my reasons. I have also explained why another turn of phrase I used was chosen and, yet again, apologised in case my original phrase was misleading.

One final time (I hope) to make it clear. The clip contains lots of cliched arguments that I disagree with. I could not argue with it on the thread on which is was posted because that thread was closed unexpectedely. What I intended was to voice my opinion on the clip, to have some reasonable adult discussion and to have some people try to change my mind. That does appear to be, in the main, what has happened. What I did not expect was accusations of causing trouble and 'catfights' (whatever they are). Nor did I expect to have to explain myself on multiple occasions. Where I have been ambiguous or unclear however, I am happy to do so.

I am a person of simple pleasures, tastes and motives. Not a politician. Please don't assume that I have some sinister plot to get people arguing; I don't.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 08:41 PM

Meanwhile I'll be looking for, then washing, my Scan Tester and Jinky Wells t-shirts ready for that Voice Of The People stadium tour,

Won't iron them though. Wouldn't do to make too much effort for the tradarts which deserve such scant attention.

After all, anything's good enough for . . .

Oh, and to the person who wondered why not take concerns raised here to "where something could be accomplished", they have been and stuff is beginning to happen. It's just that there are those who apparently do not see the need and instead slag off those who do. Odd.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Melissa
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 08:16 PM

I'll wait for Dave's reply, but thanks anyway, Diane.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 08:10 PM

Mr Polshaw began the thread with a quote that highlighted what he termed an "unbelievably naive and pretentious" view of the tradarts.

The rest of us have been discussing ways of remedying this and how to get our music and culture treated with the respect it deserves.

You haven't.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal
From: peregrina
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 08:08 PM

I am lurking too, wondering: why?

And why not take the concerns raised here somewhere where something could be accomplished?

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 08:01 PM

Just lurking.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Melissa
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 07:58 PM

Dave, was this what you intended when you clipped that portion from the previous thread?

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 07:18 PM

Melissa, all three of your posts on this thread - particularly the last two - are brimming with vitriol, so I don't think you have any room to point fingers... the last one was virtually an ad hominem attack!

Meanwhile, I repeat my earlier, politely phrased question - what is plasticised about properly funded, well played traditional music?

And there are more of us than you and Diane posting on this thread and most of the posts are pretty well mannered. The issue is bigger than the occasional lapses into pettiness, dontcha think?

Moving on to respond to Frank's post a while back, I don't believe recording should seek to replace or compete with live music - both are and should be very different experiences. However, I do feel that recordings should be far more than a memento or souvenir of a gig - and all too often in the folk world that's all they are. That's one of the reasons I'm so impressed with the current crop of young English traditional singers - they seem to have got their heads round the concept of the album as an artifact in its own right - and really know how to use the studio well. So for those of us - such as myself - who can't get out to gigs as often as we'd like to, the CD becomes a pleasure in its own right. Though according to Melissa's earlier post, such CD listening behaviour is a highly suspect activity!

Meanwhile, I wouldn't touch any CD by uncle Fred with a bargepole, though I may attempt tap his knowledge before he fries the last of his braincells. And make sure he gets the odd square meal, of course!

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 06:54 PM

And a Happy New Year to everyone!

Why carry on a discussion in such a bad tempered way? (Who? If the cap fits...)

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Melissa
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 06:20 PM

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Diane Easby - PM
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 04:30 AM

Sweet Geeze, 'tis morning now and transatlantic muddle hangs in the air.
It can only be assumed that Melissa was getting well stuck ino a large bottle last night.
Here goes in words of as few syallables as possible:

Jeri's post of 0633 seems to suppose that the funding and administrative measures I advocate for English tradarts are not needed in the US.
I say that they certainly are.
Though I would have imagined that someone who claims, unlike by far the majority of US citizens who despise and/or ignore local and/or immigrant music and musicians, rather to be aware of them would have noticed this already.
_______________

Do you talk like this to people you know?
If so, that's probably why you're so lonely and bitter.

Hostility is not the best way to get a point across, but it does a fine job of wasting words and time when you don't have anything worth saying. Apparently, this thread was created to say absolutely nothing in the most poisonous manner?

Your attitudes and approach are a lot more destructive and counter-productive for "tradarts" (trendy, say-nothing crapwords are something I DO despise) than lack of funding.

When this particular vile wind of a thread is finally closed, I will be relieved. There is more than enough nastiness in the world without members of a themed site blowing toxins on each other. Maybe you could start a Quarantined thread as a follow up to provide a service for the handful of members who have outcast themselves in a similar way.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 07:39 AM

WLD - There's nowt at all wrong with a bit of disrespect but when it becomes a tradition in it's own right where do we go from there? The pretentious nonsence from both the hippy and punk era's are prime examples. Yet within both those fads there was the good and excelent as well as the dross. You seem to say on occasions that traditional arts are bad as a whole yet I know from other conversations that you do enjoy some exponents of the same. Surely good music is good music wherever it comes from. OK - I agree that there are some parties that would say if it is less than 200 years old it isn't worth doing but surely they are in the minority nowadays? Just like those who would espouse that nothing older than last weeks pop charts is worth listening to?

Do you actualy have anything against traditional arts, done well of course? Or do you just think that some people go too far in their 'protection' of said arts? Is it not worth trying to make sure that all music is of the best quality for the intended audience? Now - there's a get out! What is the 'intended audience'? A few fat blokes in the back room of a pub (with me in the middle) paying 30p each or a crowd of 300 in the Bridgewater Hall paying £15 a ticket? But I digress...

Exactly what is it you don't like?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 06:35 AM

Reserving the right to steal bits? Ah, like the Disney Corporation had a go at with The Lion Sleeps Tonight. Fortunately Solomon Linda's family won back the rights to the song through the courts.

Ol' Walt (representing US globalised capitalism) 0
Zulus (representing the dispossessed rightful owners of their own culture) 1.

Good.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 06:32 AM

Sorry - lost cookie.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 06:30 AM

QUOTE: If theres a tradtion. I want to be outside of it: dispesctful of it; unencumbered by its requirements; unsubsidised by its patrons; uncowed by its nauseating pretentiousness

And that degree of cultural self-loathing is also peculiarly English, and is in itself some kind of tradition, although not one to be preserved or admired... thank god there are a whole generation of players and singers unencumbered by such negative baggage who are just getting on with playing the music!

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 06:17 AM

If theres a tradtion. I want to be outside of it: dispesctful of it; unencumbered by its requirements; unsubsidised by its patrons; uncowed by its nauseating pretentiousness.

I would advise any musician with blood running through his or her veins to do the same.

Just reserve the right to steal bits now and then.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 06:02 AM

You have obviouslsy never been to Mountain View, Arkansas, Diane. I have and have the T-shirt proudly telling me it is the Folk Music capital of the World! I believe everything I read on a T-shirt so it must be true;-0 Never seen so many people sittin an' a'pickin an' a'grinnin. All genuine authentic hill-billies. Every last one. And in a dry county at that! With the state of folk in the US being so good they don't need funding! Now, all we need is for Walt Disney to get hold of ours as well...

:D

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 04:30 AM

Sweet Geeze, 'tis morning now and transatlantic muddle hangs in the air.
It can only be assumed that Melissa was getting well stuck ino a large bottle last night.
Here goes in words of as few syallables as possible:

Jeri's post of 0633 seems to suppose that the funding and administrative measures I advocate for English tradarts are not needed in the US.
I say that they certainly are.
Though I would have imagined that someone who claims, unlike by far the majority of US citizens who despise and/or ignore local and/or immigrant music and musicians, rather to be aware of them would have noticed this already.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 04:18 AM

Melissa, if properly funded, well played traditional music is 'plasticised' what then are the qualities that 'authentic' music should have? Presumbly it has to be poorly funded and badly played...

I think part of this is about different conceptions of what we're talking about and what should therefore be done about it, coming from different priorities on different sides of the Atlantic. For me, I'd like to see better funding and official support for English traditional music... this is already haappening with some of the work that the EFDSS are doing with, for instance, heritage lottery grants. Its still a drop in the ocean though. I'd also like to hear a little more traditional music on national, state funded radio instead of the one hour and a few songs here and there we currently get: we need to make a bigger dent in the wall of American and home grown American influenced pop (presumably what Diane means when she refers to 'Uncle Sam pop'). I'm not anti such music, just fed up of its monopoly...

Teaching kids about traditional music in school seems an obvious and admirable place to start. They already learn about other sorts of music, but the authorities here do seem to have a blind spot when it comes to traditional music. It could even be done as part of a local history curriculum, if it is approached from the angle of regional as opposed to national traditions. We may even then get to the point where there's demand for more than just the one degree level course in traditional music in the entire country...

Which is a long drift from the original post which was about whether recordings were 'making water into ice'. Point is though, if you don't conserve the water, you're buggered when you need ice.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 10:42 PM

Are you insulting Jeri, or everyone who lives in the US

Why no.
Just those who imagine that the level of tradarts education and funding is adequate.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Melissa
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 09:16 PM

Are you insulting Jeri, or everyone who lives in the US, DianeE? Either way, I find it amazing that you're brilliant enough to know with such certainty what any of us want/welcome. You're way ahead of me, as I would have thought "Uncle Sam pop" was a bullshit label and that your opinions were simply your opinions and no more valid than anyone else's.

Thanks for all the great, informative tidbits the pair of you have graced us with! Now that I know I don't have any interest in local/regional/etc, I can save a lot of time and effort by staying home listening to cds.
I'd appreciate it (if you have time) if you could sort of direct me toward what I SHOULD be interested in. As a presumably ignorant person, I don't know which plasticized artists I ought to support.

Thank goodness I was told that this isn't a catfight-nonsense conversation! Without that, I would have taken some of the above comments as pointless and argumentative.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 07:48 PM

What? You mean arts funding, venue management and promotion of tradarts and musical education receives so much Bush administration backing and dosh that everything in the US tradition is hunky-dory?

I'd say (in my limited experience) that while the Lincoln Center was very nice, I didn't notice that it was replicated anywhere else and it's a VERY BIG country. Come to think of it, other than in one or two pockets of Virginia, Kentucky and Georgia, I didn't come across any sort of music that's not available absolutely anywhere else in the world, by which I mean, obviously, a steady diet of globalised corporate Uncle Sam pop.

In Woodstock there were serried ranks on the village green of Dylan wannabe clones complete with Woody hats and harmonica harnesses all singing Like A Rolling Stone in unison. Maybe by now some of them have learned American Pie too. And Springsteen's greatest hits. So, yes, I can see why you're telling me I'm quite wrong and the US tradition is in no need of a similar shake-up such as I envisage for England. Our emigrants took their music across the Atlantic but now we've got it back on the Songlinks CD. You don't want it any longer, any more than you welcome local or regional musics, cajun, conjunto, musics of immigrant communities or Native American culture. No, of course not. Not when you have Ms Clinton singing The Star Spangled Banner on YouTube.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 06:51 PM

No examples of ad hominem attacks, Jeri? Or have I found something that you said and misrepresented it? Please don't think that I am attacking you in any way. Just trying to help you formulate a more cohesive discussion. I honestly enjoy things that are well done and well thought out. Be it music or rhetoric I cannot understand things that do not make sense. Please help me see why you feel the need to accuse people of things they have not done. I have already apologised, twice, where it has been pointed out I may be wrong. But no-one, as yet, has proven the case against:-(

PM me if it is not for general discussion!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 06:33 PM

Diane, those actions really have no effect on my unless I perform or go to school in the UK. Nevertheless, I see by your reference to one particular person that we do indeed mean different things by the phrase. Good luck with your efforts.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 06:29 PM

Apparently John Phillip Sousa lamented the advent of recording technology because he
thought it would interfere with people's motivation to want to make music themselves and
become mere specatators. I think he may have a point here.

On the other hand, most of us musicians have learned much from recordings. Without them, though, it would be harder to find but beneficial to learn music person-to-person.
A lot can be learned from being in the same room with a "teacher" that's different from a lecture or a recording. Observation, imitation and a physical presence makes a difference in musical instruction. A large part of education comes from "mirroring".

A recording can freeze a performance by building up an expectation of the listener to want to hear the recording duplicated live. Modern popular music audiences have this problem. This is a disadvantage of recording.


When I go to hear a performer, I am often pleased when they do a selection differently than what was on the recording.

I also like to hear different recordings by the same artist with years spanned in between.

Recording is a way of documenting a performance but by no means can replace a live one. There is an excitement from a live performance that sometimes can be captured on recording.

A well-produced studio album is sometimes
better than a performance in an environment
destructive to the performer.

The problem is that too few well-produced studio albums make it into the public marketplace. So many are gimmicky with overproduction or distracting musical elements
that eclipse the artist. There are a great many CD's out there that could be made into frisbees.

I think the nature of folk music (which I still believe to be a valuable term) is to get away from too much polish and show business. It could be argued that even those lionized by a certain cogniscenti as being "traditional" can be valued for their imperfections as well as their musical correctness. Here, I agree with Jeri. Uncle Fred may have something else going for him other than keeping his pitch or remembering every verse.

Nigel asks a legitimate question though. Would you pay good money to see Uncle Fred? Probably not whereas I might pay to see a traditional artist perform but probably because that artist had a sufficient show business savvy to interest me as an audience.

I think that folk music transcends the individual stage performer or Uncle Fred as being a part of a process that everyone can own.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 06:28 PM

"recordings are where folk meets pop. Recordings are 'hot' today and totally forgotten tomorrow."


Yeah, that explains the upcoming Voice of the People stadium tour...

Remind me to dig out my Sam Larner t-shirt.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 06:14 PM

Oi, Diane! Don't send them to my sitting room! I only just got rid of the last lot!

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 06:04 PM

There's not one thing even the most outraged among you can do . . .

There are many things such as:

* lobbying for increased and better distributed national and regional arts funding
* pressure on organisers/promoters for more professional standards at venues
* campaigning for higher standards of music tuition through the education system,

a combination of which will lead to vastly increased public awareness and national pride in the tradarts which an entire generation has been taught to despise and ignore. This can and must be reversed.

'Good enough for f*lk' was a catchphrase of the late Alex Campbell (a one-time excellent Scottish musician who was frequently - like Uncle Fred - completely pissed onstage). I always assumed he meant the words ironically but he was all too often too far out of it to distinguish the difference. Jolly funny chap though he could be, such highly unprofessional behaviour is not the way to go. And perpetual wannabes should stay in their bedrooms, or at least venture no further than Nigel's sitting room.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 06:00 PM

QUOTE: You find one thing you can misinterpret and then jump on it.

No, I actually disagree with most of what you said. No jumping was required or carried out.

What's this business about doing your job well being akin to treating folk music as 'pop' anyway? And the musicianship being relatively unimportant? If that's not a justification of mediocrity, I don't know what it is...

QUOTE: People will sing or play.

Hopefully they will also spend a respectable amount of time rehearsing in the privacy of their bedroom before they inflict it on unsuspecting members of the public, too...

Cheers,

Nigel

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 05:37 PM

I'm starting to see how this form of 'discussion' works. You find one thing you can misinterpret and then jump on it.

I didn't say that folk music should be crap. There are many degrees of quality, and even the 'travelling minstels, griots, jesters, bards' started somewhere. The bottom line is this: people will sing or play. Some will be good and some will suck, and some who suck will later be good. There's not one thing even the most outraged among you can do about this except complain impotently on some forum on the internet.

'Good enough for folk' doesn't mean that anyone is satisfied not being better. It means they can sing or play while they improve. If they're horrible and they don't try to get any better and they persist in torturing people, I'm out the door (or at least cringing silently). I suspect though that the phrase is code for perpetual wannabes.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 04:47 PM

BTW (at the risk of upsetting some of my allies on this thread) - I still like folk clubs occasionaly. They are the last bastion of fat middle-aged, middle-class grumpy alcies like me:-) In just the same was I enjoy American wrestling. At least The Undertaker, The Rock and Mr McMahon have the decency to rename themselves 'Sports entertainment'. Maybe folk clubs could be re-christened 'Those other sporting sound entertainment related' clubs.

Tosser clubs for short.

Damn, I've made the previous question too easy...

:D

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 04:39 PM

Sorry, Jeri (and rumncoke), yes I did say that. What I should have said is what the author seems to be saying AMONGST OTHER THINGS is that etc. etc. etc. I actualy did go on to point out lots of other things I disagreed with but as you seem to have picked the one point I could be ambiguous about I will clarify that one.

recording it (music) is like turning water into ice. How else am I supposed to interpret that? Turning water to ice is a particularly pointless task. It wastes valuable enery and does nothing but occasionaly makes a poor product more palletable. After it has frozen it then melts never to be seen again. How does likening the recording of music to this magnificently pointless excercise do anything to help anyone?

As to ad hominem attackes. I too would hope that they are not tollerated. It is a rule of the mudcat. If you can point out to the management where such personal attacks have occured then I am sure they would only be too happy to delete said attacks. Are you sure you are not thinking of situations where someone disagrees with an accepted point of view and states their case in a forceful manner? Maybe one with which you disagree?

There is a world of difference between 'Polshaw is a tosser' and 'Dave Polshaws views are sometimes ridiculous.' One I agree with. The other I don't. I'll leave it to your imagination...

:-P

Dave

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 03:44 PM

Yeah, lots of my friends say, "I'd love to get into listening to folk music, but the recordings I've heard are just too damned professional. And that really, really puts me off. Next they're going to demand that classical music is played professionally, too, the bastards."

BTW, I like this term 'tradarts' and I think I'm going to start using it to describe the music I like now 'folk' has become such a meaningless term. It could even incorporate singer songwriters like Steve Ashley and Chris Woods who write within the tradition...

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 03:26 PM

I'd love to get rid of all that is smug and insular and deeply unappealing about folk music

Hallelujah Nigel, so would I.


. . . not perfect and may not even be good, but they're 'good enough for folk'

No Jeri, they're bloody well NOT.

Tradarts are something really, really special, something which is recognised in most places other than England, although there have been 'professionals' (both in the sense of being paid as well as being consummate performers) for centuries. What is required is proper recognition and official funding (rather than for stupid running about games which are costing uncounted billions) to shock our population into appreciating what a treasure they have.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 03:02 PM

Jeri.

So... travelling minstels, griots, jesters, bards? Are these not all professional entertainers of years gone by? What's with this myth of folk traditions always being about the veneration of the amateur?

It's all well and good to have anyone participating in singarounds, private gatherings, stuff taking place in the home, etc etc. And that's part of the folk tradition (though not always about folk music - private singing within my family was never about traditional song). These informal gatherings are for whoever feels like participating: ability, skill, talent, professionalism etc doesn't come into it. Yes, we'll tolerate pissed up Uncle Fred singing a rubbish song out of tune and getting the words wrong and going on for way too long... after all, he's family...

Professional singers of traditiional song, however, are a different matter entirely. They are taking your money to do a job, and as such certain standards apply - just the same as if they were plumbers or social workers or hairdressers or computer programmers. This doesn't make them 'pop' - it makes them good at their job. And what the hell is 'pop' about a decent standard of musicianship? Does this expectation around professional standards somehow 'taint' folk music? Do you really want badly played, badly sung, badly recorded folk records? Do you really want to keep it small and minority and obscure, or do you want to be able to say to your friends, 'listen to this music I love. It really is something special'?

And a recording may be a moment frozen in time, but the person making the recording better be putting all of their heart and soul into making it special if they're expecting me to part with £12.00 for it: regardless of the programming policies of US radio stations. I think I have every right to expect that. If they're not prepared to put in the effort, frankly, they're in the wrong job.

This is a bit of a rant, I know, but I'd love to get rid of all that is smug and insular and deeply unnappealing about folk music.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 11:04 AM

Clearly, the moment you play your tune out for the first time it ceases to be yours alone as players (or so the musician hopes) incorporate it into the vast treasury of what has gone before. A musician's greatest achievement is to have the courage to add to our cultural heritage. But the greatest nightmare is to have it buggered up or, even worse, labelled 'f*lk music', a meaningless, way-past-sell-by term.

Of course a recording is a mere snapshot in time. A further example of digital advance aiding musicality is that different takes at different times can be compared bit by bit (as it were). Should you want to.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 09:50 AM

First, you have

Folk music set up on a pedistal is going nowhere - if you want a tune with no ending 'to resolve' then what you do is make one up - because that is what happens when musicians make music. A tune will get away, it runs like water or sand, from one player to the next, from one playing to the next, gliding between instruments and keys and modes and minds and from one playing to the next and never quite the same always taking a little but leaving more, and always from one playing to the next so it is not and never will be what one person thinks of it, because it is always something old and new and borrowed and you can even blue it ... recording it is just like making water into ice, a pause, nothing more.

Then Dave Polshaw sums up his intepretation

What the author appears to be saying is that good music is not worth recording.

Huh?

You really DO have a frozen moment in time, no matter how good the music is. Real life isn't that way, and folk music in the real world isn't that way. I've known people who've recorded a song, but never played it the same way before or after.

And there really should be not criticism of 'good enough for folk'. REAL folk music has to be learned, little children play and sing it, old people whose voices are worn or whose hands don't work as well as they used to, and everybody in between who are just trying to improve. They're not perfect and may not even be good, but they're 'good enough for folk'.

They wouldn't be good enough to record. I wouldn't buy a recording of someone who wasn't a lot better than the average community musician, but recordings are where folk meets pop. Recordings are 'hot' today and totally forgotten tomorrow. Radio stations, at least in the US, play newer releases, and if it's older than a month, possibly less, it's hardly ever played. Radio stations exist to sell records and to give people a taste of what's new. We wind up with charts and polls and awards and all sorts of pop music industry features used for folk.

So, you talk about your folk recordings as if they were pop, and the most important thing is the musicianship, not the music. I will search scratchy 30-year-old recordings all the way up to modern recordings - folk, pop or otherwise - for music I want to learn. Then I will go play it somewhere with other people. I will try to be good and will enjoy it. I will likely change it even if I try not to, but I probably won't record it.

This 'living tradition' doesn't exist to support the recording industry, but the recording industry can help people find and learn songs. At best, the relationship is symbiotic. At worst, some poor soul comes along who tries to make people believe if you aren't good enough to be a 'star', you shouldn't try. You can feel whatever way about it you like, but I and my friends will keep singing.

Oh, and I'd hope future ad hominem attacks aren't tolerated here.
That looks like the fatal trend in the thread started by someone asking about a piece of music used for an advert.

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 09:09 AM

Maybe I did read too much into it, Kevin. If so I apologise unreservedly to the original poster of the passage. I don't think so though. All the danger signals are there -

1. if you want a tune with no ending 'to resolve' then what you do is make one up.

If this doesn't suggest that it's OK to bugger up someone elses music then I don't know what does. OK - Some may improve with 'making bits up'. The vast majority will not

2. it runs like water or sand, from one player to the next, from one playing to the next, gliding between instruments and keys and modes and minds and

Oh, god. Sorry. I can't even bring myself to repeat any more of this 60's twaddle without a good dose of LSD. As soon as I see or hear it the shutters go up in defence agaist being assailed by more Hurdy Gurning Men, Tales of Pornographic Oceans or Knights Sat in White.

I realy do try to be open minded and there are lots of current singer songwriters of many genres that I do enjoy. But in my time at the local folk club I have heard far more from the Vogon Poets of Adams' Guide than I have of Bob Dylan. Maybe I am just getting too gumpy in my dotage or maybe I have just realised that the limited time left is far to precious to be wasted smiling politely at the people who make the music 'better'!

And I do quite like MFAFH - even with it's lack of ending. But just because an Irish band plays it does not make it folk music. In fact it is as misrepresentative as that Morrisons delivery bloke joining forces with all and sundry to 'help' make 'his roots music' popular.

It was also as much the fact that anyone detracting from the viewpoint that this tune was wonderful and should be played by all and sundry on the brain removal box was stopped from voicing their opinion by an over zelous elf. Why is it that anyone who speaks their mind against a paricular passage of music is silenced but political critisism and character assasination seems to be fair play on this 'music' forum?

Oh, one final thing. Melissa. I was being kind by dropping the line about 'play it, dance it, sing it.' It is nothing but another cliche to add to the passage and if I included that I would also have to include Well this has turned out a pathetic as I thought it might and just stop whigeing, please. Both phrases quite likely to cause 'catfight nonsense'. And no, I did not bring it to another thread to cause trouble. I brought it to another thread because someone did not like the valid arguments on that thread had already decided to close it. What else am I supposed to do if I had further comment to make?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Is it really? (Recordings/Music On a Pedestal)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 05:56 AM

In the first place, the piece of music under discussion is NOT 'f*lk music' (whatever that is) but a quite recent composition of very well-known origin by the late musician/producer Simon Jeffes, whose work has been described as modern, semi-acoustic chamber music arising from a dystopian dream arising from a bout of food-poisoning delirium.

A version of the tune has been sampled for some tellyad for which, it is to be hoped, all royalty dues have been paid. Its precise origin was the composer finding a harmonium in a skip and, indeed Music For A Found Harmonium was the first tune he wrote in it. Allegedly. This may or may not serve to explain why it is constructed (like it or not) the way it is. No-one knows and he cannot now be asked. The fact remains that it is very much in copyright and a different arrangement should be credited as such: Composer SJ / Arr Joe Bloggs.

The subtext of the post Dave plucked from elsewhere is the flawed philosopy of a certain 'good enough for f*lk' gang who think they can do what the hell they like with any music whatever the provenance without credit or payment. They cannot and this is one loophole which the digital revolution is going some way to close. Musicians deserve protection of their livelihoods whether or not you actually like their work. That is not the point.

Subject: RE: Is it really? ('What is Folk?' 2007)
From: melodeonboy
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 08:06 PM

I agree with you on this one, McGrath, especially your first sentence. And your quotation from Sydney Carter is spot on.

What's all the fuss about?

Subject: RE: Is it really? ('What is Folk?' 2007)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 07:35 PM

It seems to me that Dave has read into that quote quite a lot of stuff that isn't really in there. All Rumncoke seems to be saying is that music keeps on changing as it goes around, and always will. Which seems commonsense to me. It gets written down or recorded, and that's a valuable way of preserving what was played or sung at one particular time and place, maybe by the person who made it up, maybe by someone passing it on.

But there's no reason to assume that that is going to be the end of it - it never has been in the past.

There's a quote from Sydney Carter I had occasion to post in a frecebt thread which seems apposite: "There is nothing final in the songs I wrote, not even the words, the rhythm and the melody. This is not an oversight; I would like them to keep on growing, like a tree. They have a form, I hope; so does a tree. But it is not fixed and final. It must develop according to the time and place, it must adapt itself to soil and weather." Some songwrites don't see it that way. But that's how it sems to work in practice.

Subject: RE: Is it really? ('What is Folk?' 2007)
From: Melissa
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 06:44 PM

Ice melts and turns back into water...it's a perfectly fine form of preservation and I have no argument with the metaphor.

The chosen quote appears obnoxious with the exclusion of the line about "...play it, dance it, sing it..."
Did you bring it into a new thread because you LIKE the catfight nonsense that was going on in the other thread?

Subject: RE: Is it really? ('What is Folk?' 2007)
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 06:35 PM

I'm not entirely clear about what we're discussing here ~ especially if it's not yet another variation on "What Is Folk?"

I'll throw in these semi-random but hopefully relevant observations:

The learning and passing-along of songs is entirely different since the invention of sound recording devices than it ever was before. This is equally true of "folk" and "classical" music.

Within the realm of folk music, and especially within the most improvisatory and informal traditions or "sub-genres" (e.g., The Blues), the existence of a particular recording often takes on a sacrosanct "written-in-stone" aura that was never intended and should not be regarded as seriously as many "scholars" might prefer. A given folk artist may have sung and played a particular song just a bit differently every time he/she performed it, but the version that came out on the day Mr. Collector showed up with his tape recorder has now somehow become the one and only "true original" form. Not true! Contemporary musicians should feel just as free to rephrase and reinterpret as their predecessors did.

Subject: RE: Is it realy? ('What is Folk?' 2007)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 06:21 PM

Oh - and sorry MudElf. I do NOT want a discussion on what is folk music. I never intimated any such thing. Please explain why you added such nonsense to the title and remove it forthwith.

Thanks

D.

Subject: RE: Is it realy?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 06:16 PM

Do the phrases

"Well this has turned out a pathetic as I thought it might."

"If it is music then play it, dance it, sing it, whistle in the shower feel it in the street, take it with you when you go -"

and

"just stop whingeing, please."

Really add to the discusion. Jeri? They were the only ones I missed. As to who formulated the whole concept of 'Folk music on a pedestal is going nowhere' then I doubt very much that 'rumncoke' is the first to voice that opinion and will not be the last.

Just what is your point please?

D.

Subject: RE: Is it realy?
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 06:11 PM

Oh, I got it. Rumncoke, and the whole post was:

Well this has turned out a pathetic as I thought it might.

Folk music set up on a pedistal is going nowhere - if you want a tune with no ending 'to resolve' then what you do is make one up - because that is what happens when musicians make music. A tune will get away, it runs like water or sand, from one player to the next, from one playing to the next, gliding between instruments and keys and modes and minds and from one playing to the next and never quite the same always taking a little but leaving more, and always from one playing to the next so it is not and never will be what one person thinks of it, because it is always something old and new and borrowed and you can even blue it ... recording it is just like making water into ice, a pause, nothing more.

If it is music then play it, dance it, sing it, whistle in the shower feel it in the street, take it with you when you go -

just stop whingeing, please.

I have to agree that recording freezes one particular playing of a song or tune at one particular moment of its history. Doesn't have to stay frozen.

Subject: RE: Is it realy?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 06:03 PM

Sorry, Jeri - Something to do with music for a found harmonium and it being used as a TV advert. And does it realy matter who wrote it? I am not particularly impressed by names and rarely remember them. Mea Culpa:-(

D.

Subject: RE: Is it realy?
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 05:59 PM

Dave, what was the thread and who wrote what you've copied?

Subject: RE: Is it realy?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 05:54 PM

BTW - my tastes are far from 'conservative'. I do love the stuff Maddy Prior has been doing with 'Span and the Carnival Band recently but I also enjoy Amy McDonald, Steve Earle and ChumbaWumba. My last 2 traditional albums were the Stones 'Let it Bleed' and the Beatles White Album while my latest choice of 'modern' stuff was Katheryn Tickells Air Dancing.

Funny stuff this music...

Subject: Is that realy what music is about?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 05:48 PM

Sorry for the vague title. It's all I could think off. A thread, now closed, contained the paragraph

Folk music set up on a pedistal is going nowhere - if you want a tune with no ending 'to resolve' then what you do is make one up - because that is what happens when musicians make music. A tune will get away, it runs like water or sand, from one player to the next, from one playing to the next, gliding between instruments and keys and modes and minds and from one playing to the next and never quite the same always taking a little but leaving more, and always from one playing to the next so it is not and never will be what one person thinks of it, because it is always something old and new and borrowed and you can even blue it ... recording it is just like making water into ice, a pause, nothing more.


Well, sorry. I just find that unbelievably naive and pretentious at the same time! Music will get away. Of course it will. But are all the avenues it explore to my taste? Are they hell. Are all the highways and byways good? Of course not. What the author appears to be saying is that good music is not worth recording. Why the hell not? If old George MacNuddle down the local has a song that everyone enjoys and is happy with then record it for heavens sake! Old George won't be there for long. If Stefan Bjorn Dillon wants to do his own thing with that tune, in A minor (nearly) then let him. But don't expect Georges family to like it! Or me.

If recording music is like turning water into ice then bring on the frigidaire. Let the new generation listen and learn. And then give us a new but GOOD version. Not all change is good. Not all tradition is bad.

There. Off my chest.

D.