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'Songs of The Irish Travellers' reissued
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Subject: Irish Travellers From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Dec 07 - 04:36 AM There seems to be a revival in interest in Traveller singers in Ireland the present time (a bit ironic considering the general attitude to Travellers here, which verges on ethnic cleansing). I have just received my copy of the newly re-issued 'Songs of The Irish Travellers', the magnificent, long unavailable collection from Tom Munnelly's recordings, first issued in 1983 by European Ethnic Oral Traditions. This has been published by the Travellers' organisation Pavee Point, and follows hard-on-the-heels of the (mainly) music CD 'The Rainey's', (a family of Travellers from Galway). A few years ago P.P. issued 'Whisht', a collection of songs and stories from the Cassidy Family, recorded by American collector Alen MacWeeney in 1967. MacWeeney's book of photographs, 'Irish Travellers - Tinkers No More', which has a CD of songs and music (including the beautiful 'Blue Tar Road' sung by its composer, Liam Weldon) was published earlier this year by New England College Press, and is available on the internet at a very reasonable price (we got our copy from the UK company, The Book Depository). Early next year, broadcaster Paula Carroll is putting together three programmes for Lyric FM, based the Irish Tavellers Pat Mackenzie and I recorded in London from the early 70s onward. Who knows, after all this activity, people might start to regard Travellers as human beings - stranger things have happened at sea! Jim Carroll PS All the CDs were made with the assistance of The Irish Traditional Music Archive. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: MartinRyan Date: 29 Dec 07 - 12:29 PM There's quite a lot about Tom Munnelly's work with travellers, and some singing from John Reilly, in the radio programme mentioned in this thread Regards |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 29 Dec 07 - 04:29 PM Pavee Point is at http://www.paveepoint.ie/, but details for Songs of The Irish Travellers don't seem to be available yet, unless I've missed something. Can it be ordered directly from them? |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: ard mhacha Date: 29 Dec 07 - 04:30 PM Jim we are all willing to give travellers a chance, but, they would help their cause a lot if they made some effort to clean up their rubbish on leaving. They have just vacated a car-park in our town which they used for the past month, they know the law and no amount of persuasion would move them on, they moved on a few days before Christmas and our council workers have spent a day clearing up the mess. Have you ever tried to talk to them? they try all manner of means to put you off, our local estate committee left a couple of skippy bins but they preferred to use the nearest fence. The travellers would help matters if they listened to reason. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Barry Finn Date: 29 Dec 07 - 04:49 PM This thread was about their music not about your disdain for them ard. Always feel that need to discolor a good topic, eh! Barry |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: oombanjo Date: 29 Dec 07 - 04:57 PM Let us know where & when the CD will be released.cheers Oombanjo |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 29 Dec 07 - 05:38 PM This sounds like a great CD. Looking forward to hearing it. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Dec 07 - 04:59 AM It should be available from Pavee Point - (the record No. is PPCD004) - if not Cladagh will have it. Will pass on further details as soon as Ireland comes to life again. I'm not sure where it will be launched, but Irish Traditional Music Archive will have the details. Around the time it first appeared by European Ethnic Oral Traditions another cassette appeared entitled 'Ancient Ballads in Ireland' (also including Travellers - for instanceMartin MacDonagh singing a beautiful Young Hunting). This too has been unavailable for years and greatly deserves re-issuing - any enterprising soul out there - Dick Greenhaus.....? ard mhacha "Have you ever tried to talk to them?" Yes, we recorded them for over thirty years and came to the conclusion that they create no more mess than any other community - the difference being that they have no council to clear it up after them. I used to live opposite Anfield football ground and I now live within walking distance of The Willie Clancy Summer School - you should see the mess left behind the events held there, but you'll have to be quick, as the man with the bucket and brush takes it all away for us the following day. I've got an idea - you try talking to them, and perhaps you'll understand the problems bigotry and ostracisation causes them. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: ard mhacha Date: 30 Dec 07 - 05:13 AM Barry no doubt it should be a music Thread, have another look at Jim Carroll`s post and then start advising me. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Stu Date: 30 Dec 07 - 09:12 AM No Irish No Blacks No Dogs No Travellers No Blacks No Dogs No ___________* No ___________* No ___________* *Insert currently acceptable racial scapegoat here. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: dick greenhaus Date: 30 Dec 07 - 12:02 PM Jim- " This too has been unavailable for years and greatly deserves re-issuing - any enterprising soul out there - Dick Greenhaus.....?" I love to re-issue good musc. Who owns the rights to this? |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Dec 07 - 02:38 PM Dick, It was issued by European Ethnic Oral Traditions (in practice Tom Munnelly and Hugh Shields). Side one (C90 cassette) is from Northern Ireland and is largely from Hugh's collection; side two from the South and is mainly from Tom Munnelly's recordings (Folklore Department). Hugh is fairly well out of things now, so I don't know who to ask, but I believe Nicholas Carolan at The Irish Traditional Music Archive would help. I know Tom was keen on re-issuing it, but became too ill before he could do anything. I can't over-stress how important a collection it is, probably the best album of ballads sung by field singers ever to come out, with unique versions of Dowie Dens of Yarrow, Sir Hugh, Johnny Scott, Outlandish Knight, Lord Gregory, Knight William (Child 74), (the only version this side of the pond of) The Demon Lover, Lord Abore (Child 87)...... Would be glad to help in any way I can to get it re-issued. Best, Jim Carroll PS Happy New Year to all. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: MartinRyan Date: 30 Dec 07 - 03:08 PM I second all of this - some wonderful material there. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: GUEST,Falkirk Date: 06 Jan 08 - 08:17 PM Jim Carroll what planet do you live on ? Travellers HAVE been convicted of involvement in robbery, cons, violence and other despicable crimes. Travellers habitually defraud their neighbours, demanding high prices for substandard day labour. The Georgia Governor's Office of Consumer Affairs issued a press release on March 14, 2007 entitled "Irish Travellers Perpetuate a Tradition of Fraud." Travellers advocate the Commission for Racial Equality in the UK, to say that Travellers are a distinct ethnic group with an ancient history is rubbish,they are immoral thieves and frequently steal property. Equal rights for these people leading to the passing of the Caravan Sites Act 1968 is flawed,their lifestyle and culture in the UK is repulsive to the law abiding community. The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994,repealed part II of the 1968 act, removing the duty on local authorities in the UK to provide sites for Travellers and giving them the power to close down existing sites. How often is this enforced, NEVER. They know the law and manipulate it on a daily basis. Your post in support of them is revolting. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Brendy Date: 06 Jan 08 - 08:42 PM "Travellers HAVE been convicted of involvement in robbery, cons, violence and other despicable crimes. Travellers habitually defraud their neighbours, demanding high prices for substandard day labour" No more than Settled people. Settled people are better manipulators of the law, in fact. People are people, and I know (as a lot of Irish people know) what discrimination is all about. I find it very hard to be a hypocrite in such circumstances. The Travelling community have been the guardians of a wealth of songs and music over the years. B. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Jan 08 - 08:49 PM I didn't like the way this thread turned on Ard, who can always be trusted to come up with minority point of view - but I have never doubted his sincerity. Myself, my fathers family were Irish travellers - so I suppose I should get up on my hind legs and sing the Christy Moore line.. However where I live in Nottinghamshire, the gypsies have bought a lot of brownfield sites, (there are a lot available since Thatcher closed all the coalmines) and turned them into encampments and they seem to be kept clean and decent. I have heard quite a lot of Irish people say similar sort of things to Ard so I think there must be some substance in what he has said, without it being some sort of worldwide conspiracy of diddakois, like our Scottish pal sems to think. There is a good discussion of gypsy virtues and vices in Django Rheinhardt's biography - get a hold of it if you can. I suspect the truth is not pure or simple in this case. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Gulliver Date: 06 Jan 08 - 09:17 PM I am totally anti-racist and used to have nothing against Travellers. Then a couple of years ago I managed a charity shop which was visited by a number of Traveller families, who consistently robbed everything that wasn't screwed to the ground. I and my staff (mainly elderly ladies) were so often threatened by members of this community that I had to call the Gardai on a regular basis to deal with them. The problem didn't emanate from just one family, but from numerous families from different parts of the country who visited the shop while on shopping trips to Dublin. I have the greatest respect for Jim Carroll and others who promote Tavellers' music, and mention this only to show that there is a problem out there with Travellers' behaviour (which goes way beyond my own experience mentioned above), and until this problem is dealt with public attitude towards them will not change. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Jan 08 - 04:08 AM Guest Falkirk, Thank you for your (unidentified - how else!) posting - it sums up perfectly all the bigotry and racism that is at play at present here in Ireland. Were it aimed at any other religious or racial group it would be illegal - against Travellers it is apparently acceptable. In the early sixties Birmingham JP Harry Watton proposed that all Travellers who failed to conform to the 'normal' way of life should be exterminated - I take it he has found an enthusiastic supporter in you? Gulliver: "I am totally anti-racist". Sorry - your message suggests otherwise. Later on this morning I will almost certainly open my newspaper and read of a fight, stabbing, drive-by shooting, arson attack, rape, murder, robbery, fight or other act of violence which has taken place recently in Limerick (known affectionately here as 'Stab City'). This will be repeated throughout the week and will be echoed by similar reports from Dublin, where, if we are to believe our press, everybody who is not taking drugs is selling them. I have yet to hear of Limerickians or a Dubs being refused service in a pub, having their homes torched or their children either refused a place in a school or, at best, driven out by racist taunts, because of who they are, racially, socially, or geographically. A couple of Decembers ago, here in the small rural West of Ireland village where I now live, a family of Travellers who had been made homeless by a caravan fire and who had (uncharacteristically) been temporarily re-housed by the Council, were driven out into the worst of winter weather by a chanting mob of residents; not because they had done anything, committed any crime, not even because they had a 'reputation'. The mob leader, a good Christian, admitted that they were totally unknown to herself and her friends. It was because they were Travellers and the mob were, just like you and Falkirk, racist bigots. To attribute unsavoury, anti-social characteristics to any group in society is illogical, unjust, and, in any decent society, illegal, and has led to some of the worst crimes in history. I have no idea what your experiences are with Travellers; surely you aren't claiming that the 30,000 Travellers who are at present on Irish roads, have 'all' used (and stolen from) your charity shop. Rather, I would guess that yours and your friend Falkirk's views have been formed by reading the tabloids. Brendy; "The Travelling community have been the guardians of a wealth of songs and music over the years". While I agree totally with your sentiments, if the Travellers had never sung a song, nor played a note of music, they would not deserve the ethnic cleansing process they are being subjected to at present. WLD In the thirties the German people were well aware that every Jew was a conniving, money-grubbing thief who regularly performed a blood sacrifice, and we all know that every black man has a great sense of rythm and a big willie! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Brendy Date: 07 Jan 08 - 04:37 AM Is this thread about the music of the Travellers, Jim, or about the mass killing of Irish Travellers? I take it that's what you mean by 'Ethnic Cleansing'? ... this thread should be below the line ... B. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Jan 08 - 04:39 AM too bloody true - see the Robert Johnson You tube thread -its like those people who said the black and white minstrel show was good clean fun. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Brendy Date: 07 Jan 08 - 04:45 AM "There seems to be a revival in interest in Traveller singers in Ireland the present time (a bit ironic considering the general attitude to Travellers here, which verges on ethnic cleansing)." Anyone else would have celebrated that irony as a breakthrough, Jim. Progress comes through progress. You don't do 'your cause' any justice by approaching it in this manner. B. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: GUEST,The Wild Colonial Boy Date: 07 Jan 08 - 07:10 AM begorrah and bejabbers weelittledrummer for the loife of me I cannot see how in the name of Jesus and Mary Robert Johnson and the black and white Minstrels got into dis conversation though I'll admit some of those traveling fellas do look a little on the dark side after a day on the old hot asphalt. Now why dont you try lightnenin' up me old wee Garson and try and stay on subject not all of de's fellas is as loony about da' blues as you. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Jan 08 - 07:39 AM you started it, you invaded Poland |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: GUEST,The Wild Colonial boy Date: 07 Jan 08 - 08:01 AM Bejeesus actualy its not dem fine traveling folk from de olde country who are causing a whole yolk o' trobble round here its do'se Nottingham Hillbillies thrashing seven Jesus's out their drums all day arghhh weelittledrummer will you leave dat old Poteen alone |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Gulliver Date: 07 Jan 08 - 02:27 PM Jim, please don't call me a racist bigot--you know nothing about me. I am a little bitter about what happened in my shop--and so would you be if you were in my shoes--but outside of the families who caused the trouble I don't hold a grudge against Travellers and have fought against racism all my life. I was trying to be honest in mentioning my experience with a number of families as a way of illustrating why a bias exists--I may have gone overboard in playing the devil's advocate. This experience did not prevent me going out of my way to help those Travellers in need, in any way I could, and I have made friends with Travellers and they come along regularly and are made welcome at our Sunday session in the Liberties. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Jan 08 - 02:50 PM Brendy, In the course of thirty years work with Travellers we constantly came up against the bigotry and racism displayed here; so-much-so that our relationship with them makes it impossible for me to discuss them without commenting on their predicament. As you pointed out yourself "The Travelling community have been the guardians of a wealth of songs and music over the years." What should we say; "thanks for the songs; now feck off back to your squalor and stay out of our pubs and houses"? Putting it on a purely musical basis; both Jeannie Robertson and Belle Stewart often commented wryly on the fact that they were given national honours by the same people who wouldn't previously have given them a bucket of water to wash their children with. In the same vein, piper Johnny Doran, who largely re-introduced the uilliann pipes back into the music of this country (and put County Clare on the map for many musicians), would have received the same treatment as the family I mentioned in my previous post, had he attempted to settle into a house here, or anywhere in Ireland in the present circumstances. God knows, these threads drift off topic often enough without people crying foul; please don't do so only when it is convenient. My approach to music has always been a holistic one - the music and song being only part of a larger picture. If you can't live with that, fine, get me thrown off the forum Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Ruth Archer Date: 07 Jan 08 - 03:01 PM "However where I live in Nottinghamshire, the gypsies have bought a lot of brownfield sites, (there are a lot available since Thatcher closed all the coalmines) and turned them into encampments and they seem to be kept clean and decent." But there's still a lot of resentment about them in Nottinghamshire, isn't there? Newark is a very interesting place... as a complete aside, I noticed that my gypsy friend's horse-drawn caravan, which has been parked on the road outside my village since before Christmas, has been joined by several others and some new piebald horses tonight...there's going to be a right party up there! (everyone round here - just south of Grantham - seems quite welcoming of the travellers who stop here.) |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Jan 08 - 03:09 PM Not a lot of resentment round here in the ex-pit villages Ruth. Newark is quite a posh place with a castle, very scenic - I don't suppose they'd want a gypsy encampment at the back of Windsor Castle much either. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Ruth Archer Date: 07 Jan 08 - 03:13 PM newark - posh?!! You ARE joking... there's the remains of a castle wth about 3 chi-chi shops - the rest of the town's well rough. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Jan 08 - 03:14 PM What I am telling you about Newark for, if you live near Grantham. Where's your folk club? I never knew you were so close. It would be nice to meet up. I used to go to college at Stoke Rochford. i wrote a load of songs about those years on my website. http://bigalwhittle.co.uk/id10.html |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Ruth Archer Date: 07 Jan 08 - 03:22 PM I'm 5 minutes down the road from Stoke Rochford! I know an old chap in my village who used to work on the estate at Stoke - when it was still an estate, and not a teacher training place. I don't have a folk club - I programme a venue and a festival in Loughborough. Sorry - this isn't much about travellers, is it? |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Brendy Date: 07 Jan 08 - 03:35 PM James old fruit... My point that there are 'good' and 'bad' in every community. I lived in a horse-drawn in a field near Feakle for 2 years, and 'on the side of the road' in East Clare and South Galway for nearly 5 years. During that time I had travellers from Limerick, Galway and Ennis come up to my door with interests including horse tackle, Whippets, music, and 'casing the joint', and ,in a couple of notable cases, actually trying to burgle my stuff. But never have I ever classified a whole people by the actions of a few. I never will, and I live with myself and others just fine with that philosophy. In your first post you describe the treatment of the Travellers as that which"... verges on ethnic cleansing". Further down the thread you talk of the "... ethnic cleansing process they are being subjected to at present". There'll be no telling how many mass graves we'll have hidden beneath the Mullingar Bypass by the time this little chatty ends... .... Brendy throws a sheep at Jim.... B. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: GUEST,Winger Date: 07 Jan 08 - 03:41 PM It seems to me that this thread got off to an unfortunate start with Mr. Carroll's use of the term "ethnic cleansing". However bad the lot of Travellers in Ireland over the past 50 years, I don't think it's ever got to "ethnic cleansing". That's what the Nazis tried to do to the Sinti, Jim. Of course these's large degree of suspicion, resentment and distrust of Travellers. They're regarded as outsiders. Just as the current influx of Poles, Lithuanians and other non-Irish are. It's a problem and it's not getting any better. But it's not "ethnic cleansing" - not by a long shot. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Seán Báite Date: 07 Jan 08 - 03:49 PM Heard the programme alright on Radio Eireann (via internet) where a few tracks from that LP of Tom Munnelly's recordings were played - great stuff indeed. Reminded me of a film I managed to see down here in the wilds of France 'Pavee Lackeen' where a few of the non-music issues brought up in this thread are dealt with (not too much music in the film though, sadly). Irish music would definitely be far poorer if the travellers had not kept traditions alive that others behind their lace curtains felt were beneath them.. Also puts me thinking of the Pecker Dunne... where do you go to get recordings of that fella ?? And mention of Hugh Shields bings me back to my college days - is he still alive ? |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Brendy Date: 07 Jan 08 - 03:54 PM Pecker Dunne & Margaret Barry B. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Brendy Date: 07 Jan 08 - 03:58 PM ... you'll have to do a search for the names on that site, I think... The page I attempted to link to hasn't come up (probably inside a Frame, or something...) B. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Brendy Date: 07 Jan 08 - 04:10 PM ... think that's it now... Jim should have a few recordings, I'd say. I think he does that kind of thing... B. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Jan 08 - 04:13 PM I got a Pecker Dunne cassette from from Graham's record store in Port Rush |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Seán Báite Date: 07 Jan 08 - 04:20 PM Thanks Brendy - found my way to the album in question alright. I'll have a look in Ireland next time I'm home (hopefully in the next couple of months). Is that album recordings from the 60s/70s (if Maggie Barry's involved too ?) WLD - I'm 3 hrs drive from Biarritz - I think I can give Portrush a miss this year :-) |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Jan 08 - 04:29 PM Grahams are on the phone - they'll send stuff to you. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: The Sandman Date: 07 Jan 08 - 04:42 PM About eighteen months ago,I was out and about picking up a bit of firing[in my local cemetry getting some wood].when a car pulled up outside the gates,and two blokes called me over. they said to me, we called on a house down the road[they were travellers trying to get work Macadaming].and theres a fellow,on his own down there, who we think needs a doctor. now they could have mugged that guy,but they/we saved his life.I then contacted the district nurse,and he was given Hospital treatment. where were his neighbours?he had been unable to move for three days,If it hadnt have been for travellers leafletting for work,that old fellow would have died . Dick Miles |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Seán Báite Date: 07 Jan 08 - 04:44 PM Ta all the same, WLD - but as I said, I'll save myself the postage and bring it back with me next time I'm in the Auld Sod... They won't manage to understand my Dublin accent up there in anywaze :-) (You are talking about Portrush, Co. Antrim ?) |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Brendy Date: 07 Jan 08 - 04:45 PM From this page: Scroll down the page a bit The Pecker Dunne Pecker Dunne was born into a travelling family in Wexford c1933. Like other travellers, he used to played on a fiddle he made himself. He performed outside hurling and football matches. He also busked widely in Ireland, England and France. Resembling a Mexican bandit with his trademark beard and stocky build, he is a colourful character, as widely known around Ireland as Margaret Barry was to a previous generation. He is best known for The Miximatosis Rabbit and a version of The Black Velvet Band called The Old Morris Van. It was from him that Sweeney's Men got Sullivan's John. For the past 20 years or so he could be heard singing and playing the banjo in Killarney and at Munster Final day in Thurles. He featured in the film Trojan Eddie with Richard Harris and Stephen Rea. Nowadays he lives in County Limerick. Aged 74, he was treated in a local hospital in 2007 for a throat illness. His spirit was as high as ever. Sr Carmel O'Sullivan said: "Part of his healing process is playing music and we've found that he has brought a lot of pleasure to other patients in the hospital as well. He has been playing the banjo behind his back, playing it with a biro and also with a part of a bicycle pump. Discography Travellin' People from Ireland, Pecker Dunne, Margaret Barry and others, Mulligan (Re-released as The Very Best of Pecker Dunne in 2001). Could be, Seán Báite. The Pecker decided in '01 apparently, to take Margaret's name off the album. That's nice.... B. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Brendy Date: 07 Jan 08 - 04:47 PM .. sorry about the bad html (forgetting to close the brackets after 'a bit') B. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Jan 08 - 08:54 PM that's it. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Jan 08 - 03:57 AM Over half of the Travellers on the roads of Ireland today have no access to a legal stopping place - fact. Proposals to build halting sites have to go through long legal battles due to the fact that whenever they are announced there is inevitably a protest mounted by local residents - fact. Several years ago the government brought out a law making the illegal parking of a Travellers' caravan punishable by a heavy fine or imprisonment and CONFISCATION OF THAT CARAVAN - fact. Two years ago a court ruled that it was not a basic human right that Travellers should have access to running water or sanitation facilities, lighting or heating; the result of which is persistent poor health and a significantly reduced life expectancy compared to that of the settled community - fact. Whenever Travelling families have attempted to move into houses they have been met with protests such as the one I described which took place in Miltown Malbay a couple of years ago - fact. Incidentally, the (large - youngest not yet a year old) family involved in the this incident finally decided to move from their temporary house and into a small touring caravan parked on a local beach (in mid-December) when they were stopped on the high street and informed that if they remained in the area they would be needing the assistance of the Fire Department again - it was claimed at the town meeting that they moved out 'of their own free will'. Several years ago the parents of children at a County Galway National School decided that unless Traveller children were removed, they would take away their own children, hence shutting down the town school - fact. Last year a farmer was tried for killing a Traveller who he suspected was about to rob him - this was not a spur-of the moment killing. The farmer shot the man with a shotgun, beat him with a stick, then went in to his home and reloaded his gun, came out and executed him as he lay on the ground - the jury disputed none of this, but ruled that the farmer's actions were permissible - fact. Last year, here in Clare an unarmed Traveller boy was stabbed to death by a knife wielding policeman's son - watch this space. Examples of incidents like these can be given ad-nauseum in present-day Ireland. While I realise that this is not exactly Hutus slaughtering Tutsis, in the long run the end result will be the same. I would guess that in ten/fifteen years time there will be very few, if any Travellers on the roads of Ireland; this is a view shared (and recorded by us) of many Irish Travellers who have previously said things like "there will be Travellers while there are wheels on the road". This situation has been brought about by intolerance and ignorance such as has been amply displayed on this thread. When I came into folk music I quickly became aware of the role Travellers played in keeping the songs and music alive. I cut my teeth on recordings of Jeannie Robertson, The Stewarts, The Willet Family.....etc. If we are to take some of the statements on this thread at face value (no, not you Brendy), we should regard these people as thieves and parasites who happen to have songs. When we started to collect, many of the people we recorded became close friends. We took their songs stories and information, which were willingly and generously given; now we are told that we can't discuss them here as human beings with human problems (largely caused by the ignorance and intolerance of the settled community), because it is 'off topic'. Seems more than a little ungrateful to me. Jim Carroll PS Hugh Shields has Alzheimer's Disease and will almost certainly not work again. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: GUEST,The Philosophical Gypsy Date: 08 Jan 08 - 04:43 AM Message removed due to personal attack. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Jan 08 - 06:32 AM It is called discussion. It is what friends do. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Maryrrf Date: 08 Jan 08 - 09:53 AM I don't want to stir up trouble but I have a sincere question. How does one distinguish a 'traveller' from a non traveller. Okay if they are living in a caravan that's a good indication, but other people could live in caravans too, even if temporarily. Not unheard of for senior citizens to sell the house, buy an RV and travel around. And there have been references to 'settled travellers' - so unless they identify themselves as such, how do the neighbors know? A traveller family moves into a house in town and are harassed - well how does the town know what their ethnic or social origins are??? I realize there is a special language associated with the travellers - shelta, I believe it's called, but as I understood it they only speak it among themselves. Do they speak in such a manner, or with a particular dialect, that would set them apart from others? The only time I have seen an "Irish Traveller" identified as such was a couple of years ago when a woman was arrested for beating her daughter in a parking lot - I believe her name was Marilyn Toogood. She was interviewed on television, and I didn't see anything that particularly stood out about her to mark her as "different". As I understand it there are groups of Irish travellers in the States, particularly in the Carolinas. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: GUEST,Falkirk Date: 08 Jan 08 - 12:18 PM "How does one distinguish a 'traveller' from a non traveller" A Traveller normally lives in a caravan among a community of other Travellers. Usually several members of the one family travel together. They are normally inbred, distinguished by their trade mark top of the range four by four. It's customary to park close to a housing development or retail park so they can help themselves to other peoples property, such as garden furniture,lawnmowers or power tools. Retail parks are an excellent training ground for the up and coming younger members of the tribe, as they can enter a building during opening hours as a group and distract staff members and enjoy a rich harvest of their wares. If you wish to see such groups, go to a site were you as a law abiding citizen would not be allowed to park, view all windscreens for the absence of road tax discs and tread very carefully as you may step in something very unpleasant. These sites generally are on town boundaries to allow easy access to at least three Social Security offices were they can place an X on a claim form for their 16 children and collect a generous cheque on a weekly or daily basis. I hope this information is of some help. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Brendy Date: 08 Jan 08 - 12:28 PM Thanks for that Jim.... I am behind you on this, by the way.... B. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Fergie Date: 08 Jan 08 - 01:37 PM Racism is alive and well, and hiding behind the mask of "Guest" here on Mudcat. No Jews, no Blacks, no Irish, no Travellers. When are we going to understand that Racism is the worst cancer that can be harboured in any human's breast. I live in Ireland and I am friend to many Irish travellers. They are in the main decent, honest, caring and honourable people. They suffer from descrimination in so many areas of their lives that it affects their health, their education, their confidence, their relationships and their life expectancy. Some travellers are fuckers but they are a small minority. I avoid fuckers whether they are from the traveller or settle communitys. I guess I have to learn to avoid racist fuckers here on Mudcat also. Ferus Russell |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: GUEST Date: 08 Jan 08 - 02:19 PM Falkirk and Philsophical Gypsy - a racist and a village idiot; think I'll stick out for the full set. Brendy - didn't think for a minute that you weren't. Maryrrf Irish Traveller families go back many generations. It was believed at one time that they took to the road during the Famine (as it was that the Scots took to the road during the Clearances), but in both cases they date way beyond that, those taking to the road in the 1840s joining with itinerant tradesmen already on the road. Numerous legends of how they first began travelling - my particular favourite is that the first tinker, having been refused water for tea, stole holy water from a church and boiled it; was condemned to wander for eternity. Distinctive names, usually associated with areas - Doran and Cash - Dublin/Wexford (general SE coastal counties), Reilly - Tipperary, Docherty - Donegal, Coffey - Kerry, Donovan/Dunovan (sometimes referred to as 'The Foxy-Haired Dunovans) and Casey - Clare, Ward - Galway (particularly Connemara)......etc. As you say, they have their own language - Shelta (referred by them as Gammon - possibly ass. with French 'Gamin' - street urchin). Traveller friend thought it was dying out 20 years ago until he heard his children speaking it. No longer full language (if it ever was), but interspersed with English. Used exclusively among themselves, though the ones we met were happy to teach it to us. Yes, they do have an identifiable way of speaking, both tonally and accent (generalisation - not always the case). While traditional trades are not practiced nowadays, most can talk about tinsmithing, horse-dealing and doctoring, ballad selling, leather-work making paper and wooden flowers, chimney-sweeping and other common Traveller trades. Very few old tradesman left, though we have rather a nice copper coal-bucket made by a Galway Ward. Jaysus - this is turning into War and Peace. Best, Jim Carroll PS The name Toogood you mentioned is English, but I seem to remember she was Irish married to English. Intermarriage between different Traveller groups nowadays makes it difficult to generalise. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: GUEST,GUEST,The Philosophical Gypsy Date: 08 Jan 08 - 02:31 PM As I said indolent that just about sums up the meaningless of having this discussion here. All your righteous indignation and mealy mouthed big words are pointless no one of any signifcance is listening. Yes some of these oft dishevelled and unruly folk can I am sure produce fine music,but if as a group of people who have chosen to live outside of mainstream society they wish to have the respect of the dominant population they must purge as far as possible the considerable elements within their traveling communities that are responsible for provoking trouble alas this is unlikely to ever happen such discussions have been had from time ad-infinitum with little or no result and in todays overpopulated cities towns nations etc it has become virtualy impossible to adequately cater for the needs of an oft barely literate nomadic class of people that are mostly uncooperative towards the concerns of settled society .As for pontificating about this matter here at Mudcat I am afraid this whole exercise is utterly pointless. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: GUEST,Falkirk Date: 08 Jan 08 - 02:47 PM The old "racist" card is always played when you either can't face the truth or have nothing constructive to say, change the recording. I recall an explosion here in Redding in a council owned building (paid for by tax payers, not visiting thieves)it was totally destroyed on a council-run travellers site, which is never officially used by travellers, they go onto it when Council officials backs are turned. The reason they don't OFFICIALLY use it is because they would have to register a name and Social Services could possibly find there are over 1,000 fictitious children living on the site ! Falkirk Council allowed this type to have bottled gas in their caravans. they WERE NOT ALLOWED to use or store it in any of their utility buildings. Many local children who attend the nearby Westquarter Primary School could have so easily been injured by this careless act which occurred as they were going to school. The travellers site was established at Redding in the 1980's and costs £52,000 annually to run.The 15 pitches which can each accommodate two caravans and each has a washing and utility block (all have been stripped of their copper piping on more than one occasion, including the one adapted for disabled use. Oh, before you start with the line, "How do I know it was travellers responsible" because Falkirk Council had a request for help from a travelling family called Maughan who lost some items in the explosion. No charges were brought against them, I doubt the a member of the law abiding community would have gotten off so lightly. Why is this guy Carroll crawling about here in their defence ? |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Maryrrf Date: 08 Jan 08 - 03:33 PM Thanks for the information Jim. This group of people certainly seems to elicit strong and conflicting emotions. As I am in the States where apparently there are some but very few, I have no direct experience with the Irish travellers. I know of them only in relation to their musical contributions which are extraordinary. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Jan 08 - 04:01 PM Notice:From here on, only registered and logged-in Mudcatters will be allowed to post on this thread. The subject is controversial, and it's just too easy for bigots to hide behind the cloak of anonymity. If you want to post to this thread, you have to be logged in as a member. Any subsequent Guest posts wll be deleted, so please do not respond to them. |
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Subject: RE: Irish Travellers From: curmudgeon Date: 08 Jan 08 - 04:09 PM Thanks, Joe! |
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Subject: RE: 'Songs of The Irish Travellers' reissued From: Fergie Date: 08 Jan 08 - 05:49 PM Thanks Joe Fergus |
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Subject: RE: 'Songs of The Irish Travellers' reissued From: Gulliver Date: 08 Jan 08 - 08:40 PM Thanks Joe--more heat than light being generated here. |
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Subject: RE: 'Songs of The Irish Travellers' reissued From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:10 AM Thanks Joe, I mentioned in my first posting American collector Alen McWeeney's recently published book of photographs of Irish Travellers 'Irish Travellers - Tinkers No More', (inc. CD), which is reasonably priced and well worth having. In an interview he did for The Irish Times he said how difficult it was to find a publisher; he was told on a number of occasions "we don't like tinkers here". The book was published in the US by New England Press. He and his (then) wife Artelia Court were working in Dublin in the sixties and she put together a wonderful book of songs, tales and interviews entitled 'Puck of the Droms', also well worth getting hold of if it is still available. Alen re-visited Ireland fairly recently and made an hour long film 'Traveller' which was shown on Irish TV, where he re-visited some of the families he had recorded and photographed nearly forty years earlier. It is probably the best documentary I have ever seen on Travellers, and the fact that it was shown in black-and-white was a stroke of genius on somebody's part. Jim Carroll |
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