personent hodie - help with Latin

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 11:10 PM

I can see how that would be, Dave. The words look alike, and a personal hoodie would come in handy in a Finnish December.
=======
There's a mistake in my first verse. The last two lines of the first verse should be:

In the vir-. vir-, vir-, In the vir-. vir-, vir-,
IN THE Virgi -n’s womb, Virgin’s womb created.

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 04:04 AM

I keep reading the thread title as personal hoodie and thinking of those oversized hooded pullovers that are very popular for keeping people warm at the moment:-)

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 12:23 AM

I've read about the book Piae Cantiones. I thought I understood it - medieval songs, probably from the monastic life, adopted for the scholastic life in Finland. All in a masculine environment. Nothing wrong with that. Then I looked up 'purerulae,' and it means 'little girls'!

So I think we have a song about a festival in a town or by a congregation. I decided to translate it in a way that emphasizes the singing. I put the Prince Infernal back in and changed the 'junior clericals' to altos, since altos scan.

O today now give tongue,
Sweet girls’ voices and young.
Sing in praise, sing and pray
He is born toda-ay -
God has sent the Great One.
In the vir-. vir-, vir-, In the vir-. vir-, vir-,
Virgi -n’s womb, Virgin’s womb created.

2. He has taken new form
wrapped and swaddled and warm
In a manger lies he.
Ox and cow behold him;
Prophets have foretold him.
And the prince, prince, prince, and the prince, prince, prince,
And the prince o-f Hell, loses power o’er us.

3. Seers came from afar,
wond’ring at the new star,
saw the Child’s Mother mild,
Lay their gifts before him,
Worshiped and adored him.
Gifts of myrrh, myrrh, myrrh, gifts of myrrh, myrrh, myrrh
gifts of myrrh, frankincense, frankincense and go-ld.

4. Let the young trebles sing;
Let the altos join in.
As the angel foretold -
Christ himself most holy
in a stable lowly.
Gloria, a, a, gloria, a, a, gloria, gloria in excelsis Deo!

========
I've heard some awful sad lyrics sung to this tune, but if you speed it up, add a hand drum and maybe some bells, it's fun.

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 08:02 AM

version in Finnish

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 12:55 AM

Probably better "I praise you you from the depths of my soul" - but she wanted a dumbed-down literal translation.

And actually, she could have looked at Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: GerryM
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 12:29 AM

I don't know much about Christian theology (or Latin), Joe, but I suspect that "I praise you in the bottom" is not all that good a translation. I'm a little worried about the man-man-man part, as well.

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Nov 22 - 08:02 PM

And if you want a dumbed-down literal translation, go to Google Translate:

1. Children's voices are present today
praising him who was born to us in a pleasant way,
Given to the Most High God, and from man-man-man,
and from man-man, and begotten from a virgin's womb.

2. He is born in the world, wrapped in cloths,
A manger is placed in a stable for cattle,
Ruler of the heavens, 1 the prince of the hells has lost his spoils.

3. The three Magi came, they inquired a little,
By following the star, by adoring it, 2
Offering him gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

4. All clerics, boys alike,
Sing like angels, you have come into the world
I praise you in the bottom. Therefore, glory to God in the highest.

I don't know where the "1" and "2" in your text came from.

I studied Latin for 6 years. The automatic Google translation is actually quite good.

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: RTim
Date: 16 Nov 22 - 05:52 PM

I first heard this sung by "Nowell Sing we Clear" - (Barrand/Roberts, etc..) and wanted to learn it.
I sing the version from The Oxford Book of Carols - and call it "The Boys Carol" - as below......and here is a link to me singing this with my wife's band - Ensemble Passacaglia.

Tim Radford

https://soundcloud.com/tim-radford/the-boys-carol-personent-hodie


THE BOYS CAROL - (Personent Hodie)
Sing aloud, on this day, Children all
Raise the lay, cheerfully we & they
Hasten to adore thee, sent from highest glory
For us born, born, born x 2
For us born on this morn, of the Virgin Mary

Now a child he is born swathling bands him adorn
Manger bed he’ll not scorn, Ox & ass are near him
We as Lord revere him
And the vain. vain, vain x 2
And the vain powers of hell,
Spoiled of prey now fear him.

From the far Orient, guiding star
Wise men sent, Him to seek
There intent, Lord of all creation
Kneel in adoration.
Gifts of gold, gold, gold x 2
Gifts of gold, frankincence
Myrrh for their oblation.

All must join him in praise,
men & boys voices raised,
On this day of all days,
Angels voices ringing, Christmas tidings bringing.
Join we all, all, all x 2
Join we all Gloria In Excelsis singing.

Piae Cantiones 1582
Words & Trans. Oxford Book of Carols.

Subject: RE: who can translate Latin?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Nov 22 - 05:09 PM

This I believe is a translation of this hymn.

https://hymnary.org/hymn/TWC/175

Subject: RE: who can translate Latin?
From: Charmion
Date: 16 Nov 22 - 05:03 PM

The Oxford Book of Carols has a good singable translation. I’ll dig it out and post it later.

Subject: who can translate Latin?
From: leeneia
Date: 16 Nov 22 - 04:49 PM

'Personent hodie' is a Christmas song printed in 1582 with songs that seem to go further back. Here are the words to the song, and I am interested in a literal translation. There are supposed translations online, but they seem to vary quite a bit from the original.

Can anybody translate this? I'm not asking for rhythm or rhyme.

1. Personent hodie voces puerulæ
Laudantes iucunde qui nobis est natus,
Summo Deo datus, & de vir-vir-vir,
& de vir-vir, & de virgineo ventre procreatus.

2. In mundo nascitur, pannis inuoluitur,
Præsepi ponitur stabulo brutorum,
Rector supernorum,1 perdidit spolia princeps infernorum.

3. Magi tres venerunt, paruulum inquirunt,
Stellulam sequendo, ipsum adorando,2
Aurum, thus, & myrrham ei offerendo.

4. Omnes clericuli, pariter pueri,
Cantent vt angeli, aduenisti mundo,
Laudes tibi fundo. Ideo gloria in excelsis Deo.

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: GUEST,Don Day
Date: 24 Dec 17 - 08:50 AM

This is the version I sing

Music: "Personent hodie," 1582
MIDI / Noteworthy Composer / XML
Meter: 666 66 with Refrain

1. On this day earth shall ring?with the song children sing?to the Lord, Christ our King,?born on earth to save us;?him the Father gave us.
Refrain:?Id-e-o-o-o, id-e-o-o-o,?Id-e-o gloria in excelsis Deo!

2. His the doom, ours the mirth;?when he came down to earth,?Bethlehem saw his birth;?ox and ass beside him?from the cold would hide him. Refrain

3. God's bright star, o'er his head,?Wise Men three to him led;?kneel they low by his bed,?lay their gifts before him,?praise him and adore him. Refrain

4. On this day angels sing;?with their song earth shall ring,?praising Christ, heaven's King,?born on earth to save us;?peace and love he gave us. Refrain


Personent hodie?voces puerulae,?laudantes iucunde?qui nobis est natus,?summo Deo datus,


This is one of many songs which relate to the Holy Innocents, whose feast day is December 28. For more, please see The Hymns Of The Holy Innocents.
?
Earthly Delights: Xmas Carols
This happy 15th or 16th century Latin carol is probably a parody of an earlier medieval song beginning 'intonent hodie voces ecclesie' in honour of St Nicholas, the patron saint of Russia, sailors and children - to whom he traditionally brings gifts on his feast day, 6 December. The parody may have been written for Holy Innocents' Day, a day when choristers and their boy bishop ruled the choir and displaced the senior clergy from their stalls. The tune which accompanied it in the 1582 Finnish Piae Cantiones manuscript was possibly that of the earlier song as a very similar melody is found in a 1360 manuscript from Moosburg, Germany. The English translation used today is by James [sic] M. Joseph.
? ? ? ?
Related Hymns and Carols Matched Content Code HACOC Matched Content
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Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 02:50 AM

Thanks Dave.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from the pdf
Let children's voices resound today, merrily praising
him who has been born, sent by almighty God and
brought forth from a virgin?s womb.

He was born into the world, wrapped in swaddling
clothes, and placed in the manger in a cattle shed,
the Lord of the heavens, the Prince who destroyed
the spoils of hell.

Three wise men appeared; they offered gifts and
asked for a boy-child, following a star; they
worship-ped him, offering him gold, frankincense
and myrrh.

Let all the clerics, and likewise the boys, sing like
the angels:?You have come to the world; therefore
I pour out praise to you: Glory to God in the
highest!?

words from Piae Cantiones, 1582
Translation from The New Oxford Book of Carols

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2017 thread
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=163314&messages=10

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: DaveRo
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 03:08 PM

The link is available on the Internet Archive: here (pdf).

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 02:50 PM

Mudcat seems longer lived than any other sites.

leeneia, I wonder if you made a copy of any of the translations from Marie's link?

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 01:05 AM

Thanks, marje. That looks like just the thing!

Fireworks are going off everywhere because you provided the translation. No, wait - it's twelve o'clock on Dec 31st.

That collection, Piae Cantiones, certainly provided a lot of well-known songs. I see that 'From the Father's Love Begotten,' which I took to be Gregorian chant, is also from there.

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: GUEST,Marje (cookieless)
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 10:14 AM

Here's a site with a more literal translation, which seems to be quite accurate as far as I can tell. I think you should be able to match this up with the English text.

http://www.sbarnabas.org.uk/pdf%20files/STBARNBOOK.pdf

Marje
(now I must go in search of my cookie...)

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 09:37 AM

I appreciate those links, but the translations so far are versified and metric. As an amateur linguist, I'd like to know exactly what the Latin is saying, so I can learn new words and see connections.

I'm going to study the page of facsimiles soon. Right now, the DH is standing first on one foot, then on the other, eager to go for breakfast.

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: RTim
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 08:07 AM

I have this from the Oxford Book of Carols - Tim Radford.

***************************************

THE BOYS CAROL - (Personent Hodie)

Sing aloud, on this day, Children all
Raise the lay, cheerfully we & they
Hasten to adore thee, sent from highest glory
For us born, born, born x 2
For us born on this morn, of the Virgin Mary

Now a child he is born swathling bands him adorn
Manger bed he'll not scorn, Ox & ass are near him
We as Lord revere him
And the vain. vain, vain x 2
And the vain powers of hell,
Spoiled of prey now fear him.

From the far Orient, guiding star
Wise men sent, Him to seek
There intent, Lord of all creation
Kneel in adoration.
Gifts of gold, gold, gold x 2
Gifts of gold, frankincence
Myrrh for their oblation.

All must join him in praise,
men & boys voices raised,
On this day of all days,
Angels voices ringing, Christmas tidings bringing.
Join we all, all, all x 2
Join we all Gloria In Excelsis singing.

Piae Cantiones 1582
Words & Trans. Oxford Book of Carols.

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: masato sakurai
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 01:13 AM

Piae Cantiones (facsimiles) is here. "Personent hodie" is on pp. 23-24.

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 12:30 AM

Meant to add: there is a song with English words and the same tune on Telynor's Off the Beaten Track Christmas CD. There is a small sound sample there. (Mudcatter John P. was part of Telynor.)

Subject: RE: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 12:27 AM

There are several translations on THIS PAGE.

It's one of my very favourite tunes!

Subject: personent hodie - help with Latin
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 12:06 AM

This song has intrigued me for a long time. It appeared in a collection called 'Piae Cantiones' which appeared in 1582 but contained music much older than that. [That collection provided the tune we now know as 'Good King Wenceslas.]

We are having a Three Kings party on Jan 1, and I would like to do Personent Hodie then. I would appreciate it if any Latin scholars would translate the words. Here they are:


1. Personent hodie
Voces puerulae,
Laudantes iucunde
Qui nobis est natus,
Summo Deo datus,
Et de virgineo
Ventre procreatus.

2. In mundo nascitur;
Pannis involvitur;
Praesepi ponitur
Stabulo brutorum
Rector supernorum;
Perdidit spolia
Princeps Infernorum.

3. Magi tres venerunt;
Munera offerunt;
Parvulum inquirunt,
Stellulam sequendo,
Ipsum adorando,
Aurum, thus et myrrham
Ei offerendo.

4. Omnes clericuli,
Pariter pueri,
Cantent ut angeli:
'Advenisti mundo:
Laudes tibi fundo
Ideo: Gloria
In excelsis Deo'.

In the first verse we see a virgin. In the second a manger [presepi] and a stable for brutes. The third has the three Magi. But the fourth - it seems to be saying something about all clericals. Hmmm!