Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??

Subject: Folklore: Boycott Amazing Grace?????
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 03:31 PM

I have begun to feel mild pangs of revulsion when I hear my lefty folky friends sing Amazing Grace. Am I being silly or reasonable???? Here is a song written by a slave trader, a man who made his living through the kidnaping, and often the murder, of African men, women and children. Newton knew full well that he was ripping families apart and that many of his captives would die in the hull of his ship during the long journey across the seas. But he did it anyway, even after his "conversion" to Christianity. Newton had a dramatic conversion in May of 1948 1748 after a fearful storm at sea, but he continued about his slave trading business for another seven years or so after that. And even then, he did not quit out of compassion, but either because of illness or pressure from his English wife (reports vary. Either way, there was nothing noble about his career shift.) And, yes, later in life he became active against slavery. But such changes of heart, it seems to me, are easy as long as they don't affect the pocketbook. I have found no indication that Newton ever divested himself of the wealth he accumulated through his murderous activities. (And he freed none of his "merchandise" after encountering his Redeemer during the 19481748 storm.)

Should we be singing this song??? Or should we leave it for the Klan? I'd sure be curious what folks think about this.

Steve Baughman
San Francisco

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: GUEST,Plonker
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 03:42 PM

1948?

Surely, you mean 1748?

I presume by your 'lefty friends' you mean most of the Christian church, no matter what denomination.

Do get a grip!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 03:45 PM

A fair question, Steve. Too often we hear the tale that Newton's "dramatic conversion" led to his immediately giving up the slave trade, which as you say is not true at all.

My own feeling is that anyone can sing any song, regardless of what kind of person wrote it. For many songs, we'll never know if the person who wrote it was good or evil. Also, meaning is not encoded into a song once, to remain forever static thereafter. To the extent that the text and context allows it, we get to decide what songs mean. "Amazing Grace" can be an anti-slavery song, or it can have nothing to do with slavery, because its text is really about conversion, but does not describe the specifics.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 03:47 PM

lefty friends?
This gets sung by right wing conservatives too.
You used 1948 twice - a cut and paste or are you blind with anger?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 03:47 PM

I don't know if 'we' should be singing it, but if the author's background makes you uncomfortable, then you probably shouldn't.

But did Newton ever "kidnap" anyone? More likely, he - like other slavers - purchased slaves from African tribal leaders who were willing participants in the trade.

I hope we don't have to disavow all manifestations of our various cultural inheritances that are tainted by wrongdoing.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:00 PM

Your choice...

But I think the song could be viewed as his start of a "new life" and that his personal changes came about more slowly. From Wikipedia:

John Newton has been criticised by some modern writers for continuing to participate in the slave trade while, at the same time, holding to strong Christian convictions. This has often been characterised as hypocrisy. But this should be seen in the light of his own estimation of the true timing of his Christian conversion. Writing about the definite change that had happened to him in 1748, Newton would later write:

'I was greatly deficient in many respects...I cannot consider myself to have been a believer (in the full sense of the word) till a considerable time afterwards."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:00 PM

Why not? It's a beautiful hymn with a wonderful sentiment.

Like it or not, slave trading was legal in 1748. While we in the 21st century condemn slave trading as immoral, many of our 18th century forbears didn't share that opinion, and it would be another hundred-plus years before slavery was abolished altogether in the US. I don't think you can accurately judge an 18th century man by 21st century standards.

If you're truly concerned about slavery, visit the Polaris Project online, or any other organization that's against modern-day human trafficking.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Rumncoke
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:02 PM

ER - 1948?

I rather think that it is a bit earlier than that, and you simply can't impose a modern sensitivity on historical figures.

They aren't us, we might have to live with what they did, but we can't judge their actions by how we live now, not if we want to understand anything of why things are as they today or get the slightest notion of how they really were and why.

It is as useless to get all worked up about the slave trade between Africa and the US as it would be to get upset about the feudal system in England, or the clan system in Scotland. Then is not now.

Remember too that the slavers would simply collect up the results of expeditions into the interior made by others - who would also be buying the results of local wars and disputes. If the captives had no value they might all have been killed at once.

The slave shippers, from what I have read, did not personally make journeys into the interior to collect slaves - there are still the ruins of huge slave holding areas on the shores of West Africa. The ships called in, loaded up and left.

All of which down not really have much bearing on the song or the singing of it.

It has come down to us that the song was written by a particular person who made his living so and we know a few of the things that happened to him, but we don't know much really, and life is all too short to go agonising about things long gone.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:02 PM

Well, I hear ya, but I have to say that when I sing it, I sing it for what it says, as a communication-in-the-moment, and I don't go looking for freight to attach to it.

I'd hate to think what sort of freight might show up if we required "moral clean bill of health" on authors before we would deign to sing their songs. Drunkards, druggies, serial relationships of questionable moral status, and gawd knows what all. Maybe homicidal maniacs.

The song should be sung for what it does in the present.

It's not like you're genetrating royalties to slave traders with every performance.


A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:03 PM

Given that "Amazing Grace" is one of the most popular hymns in the African American church, as well as elsewhere, it's probably culturally okay.

But more than that - the slow nature of Newton's turnaround doesn't make the turnaround any less real. Most "conversions" are merely steps in a long process - they begin slowly and take years to work themselves out. Often, they are incomplete and less than perfect. The watershed moment represented by "Amazing Grace" is a marker of the process John Newton went through, but it doesn't represent the whole thing. It is instead the product of a combination of fear, guilt, and - and this is the amazing part - the recognition that even a "wretch," caught up in the worst kind of evil, is redeemable. That it took years for Newton to realize even part of that redemption is entirely normal - and it is the universality of THAT experience that resonates with so many millions.

Dan Schatz

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:04 PM

1748, sorry, and not only did I blow that, but I could not figure out how to edit the original text after I posted it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: MMario
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:05 PM

To not sing this song because the author was a slaver makes about as much sense as for people to repudate their US citizenship because many of the founding fathers owned slaves.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:17 PM

I get that slavery was legal in the 18th Century. Newton did nothing illegal. Just like the Mullahs do nothing illegal when they order women stoned to death for adultery. It's the law. Killing Gypsies, Jews and gays during the Third Reich was also legal. I consider legality irrelevant. I'm talking moralty.

There WAS a widespread awareness during Newton's time that slavery was NOT ok. There were plenty of folks speaking out against it. It's not like I'm expecting Newton to have singularly spotted the issue and taken a solitary stand against what everyone else thought was ok.

It appears that I have more trouble than most posters here separating the writer from the music, especially when the writer was engaged in so odious a form of livelihood. I am also troubled by the fact that Newton wrote the song before he expressed remorse about slave trading.   Song 1772, regret around 1780. It sort of corrupts his message in my mind, that he apparently did not consider slave trading a contributing factor to his being a "wretch".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:20 PM

Steve:

If your own conscience requires injecting into the song what you know about the song-writer 200 plus years earlier, then the song is perhaps not one you should sing. Take a stand and refuse to sing it on the basis you describe.

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

Not everyone will feel that way about it, and I expect it's a decision best left up to the individual singer.

A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:20 PM

Hmmm - I didn't know the history. This is one of the few hymns I like, because (a) pretty, singable tune and (b) no mention of any deities, at least not in the first verse.

And just because it's legal doesn't make it right. Not any more than it being illegal is what makes it wrong...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:24 PM

I have to say that I don't really believe in dramatic conversions, or in lives that are perfect in their moral purity - or at least I don't believe that such things happen for most of us. Fundamentalists do seem to have these dramatic conversions, but it often seems to be just a move from one mindless addiction to another. For most of us, conversion takes a lifetime of stumbling.

I'm a really nice guy, and I've been a pacifist for most of my life - but I made a good living for 28 years doing security clearances for the defense, nuclear weapons, border control, and prisons of the U.S. Government. I disagree with major aspects of all of these, but I rationalize that at least I was working to ensure that decent people were working in these programs. Still, the fact remains that I derived the bulk of my income from nuclear weapons and immigration suppression. That being the case, I can hardly claim any sort of moral purity.

We live in a sinful society of sinful people, and maybe that's a good thing. Only demagogues and dictators can claim moral superiority, and look what awful things they do with that superiority.

Newton wasn't perfect, but neither was the world he lived in. He may have converted partly because of pressure or other less-than-noble reasons, but he did go through the process of conversion and he did grow into the role of a sincere abolitionist.

I think I'd rather sing the songs of a man who went through a difficult, sincere journey of conversion. I love "Amazing Grace," and I'll continue to sing it without any moral qualms whatsoever.

-Joe-

---

And now I'll put on my "editor" hat:
I fixed the date for you, Steve. If you use the "preview" function, you can edit what you wrote. Once you've made a final submission of a post, you have to ask one of us editors to fix things for you - or just post a second, corrected message and we'll semi-automatically delete the incorrect one.

And, I fixed the second date<;-) - el joe clone -

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:28 PM

(BIG GIANT....YAWN!!!) May God, law, rock 'n roll, the scientific method, and all or any other forms of providence give me strength to endure. It's a good tune, awright? If you like it, sing it. If you don't, don't!

Now, where the hell did that teapot go?

(and that's my sole response to the post that began this thread...)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:31 PM

Steve, I think your question was fair. Those that jumped on an incorrect date are certainly entitled to do so, but it speaks more about them than you.

I believe the answer, for me at least, lies in my intent in singing it, as well as what I believe to to be the emotion evoked in the mind of the listener. The evolving awareness of Newton's actions may change that, but for now this song seems to evoke the kinds of thoughts that the grandchild of the Abolitionist movement, that being today's Civil Rights movement, often uses the song. I would point to the David Roth & Anne Hills song, "Amazing Grace/That Kind of Grace" as an example of this. I am so moved by this songs ability to demonstrate that those with the least of reason to exhibit "Amazing Grace" are often the ones that teach us its true meaning. This is one of those songs, for me, where the author probably didn't have a clue as to what his song meant. It is somehow ironically appropriate that a slave trader would be the one that wrote the song that the grandchildren of slaves would adopt as an anthem. I guess if it's good enough for them, it's plenty good enough for me.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:32 PM

The question is entirely too politically correct for me--my first thought is "get a grip," like someone else said.

I don't practice a religion--I'm rather ardently non-christian, yet I find this a beautiful and simple song. We bring our own experience and understanding to a historic song like this, and meanings do change over time. The simple concept can't be appropriated by one particular religion, the idea of Grace is like that of Morality--it's bigger than one religion or the period in which the song was written.

Jessie Norman performing this sends chills up my spine every time I hear it.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:35 PM

(Little Hawk, for those who do not know him, protects his frontal lobes from impure, irrational thought emanations (which are just everywhere) by keeping an inverted teapot (extra-large) over them when he is not posting...).


A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Megan L
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:38 PM

A teapot ach jings ahv bin missinformed ah wis telt it wis a big auld iron skillett.

Subject: Lyr req: Amazing Grace/That Kind of Grace
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:39 PM

Hi, Mick -
Where can I find a recording of that David Roth/Anne Hills song? Can you post the lyrics? I have to say I'm not fond of the revisionist verses included in the Rise Up Singing songbook.
That's not David LEE Roth, is it?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:39 PM

OK so let's examine the origins of all such songs and jettison those which do not meet with approval:-
Alcohol is bad for you..so lets get rid of all the songs with alcohol in.
Murder is not too good either so let's get rid of any murderous songs.
Disease is bad so no songs with disease in.
Breaking up of partnerships is not very nice so let's not sing about it.
What else shall we get rid of Folkies? Is therew anything left in the Folk idiom?
Or should we just sing as we want to?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Tambo
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:51 PM

Dylan was a Jew, then an aetheist, then a born again Christian (although he was never born a Christian in the first place) so what is he now? And how does that affect his songs?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:53 PM

Joe,

My favorite version is found on Matt Watroba's "Live at the Ark" recording. It features Robert Jones singing with Matt. When Jones' voice kicks in on the second verse of the "Amazing Grace" opening, it sends chills up my spine. Matt's recordings are featured at http://www.folkslikeus.org/watroba/records.htm. You will have to scroll down to the Live at the Ark portion.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:53 PM

Georgian, we're not talking about subjects but about the songwriters.

Even the most craven person can create something beautiful, and as others have pointed out, Newton did, in fact, change his beliefs. Most people go their whole lives without ever even looking for their own shortcomings.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 05:00 PM

"There WAS a widespread awareness during Newton's time that slavery was NOT ok. There were plenty of folks speaking out against it."

That's true, and as I already pointed out it was another century before slavery was abolished - so maybe that awareness was not as widespread as you suggest.

Again, if you want to do something about slavery NOW, instead of picking over what happened 200 years ago, google "human trafficking" and find an anti-slavery organization you'd like to support.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 05:13 PM

Should we support George Washington or Thomas Jefferson who held slaves?

I think that a pattern of a person's life becomes more important than any particular
position held at one time. Lincoln did not want equality for Black People when he
came into the presidency but he did change his point of view radically. Jefferson
fought to have slavery outlawed in Virginia.

Amazing Grace is about the realization and discovery that a person can be a "wretch"
but overcome it. "I once was blind but now I see" is an important part of this song.
When people change for the better, they should be commended for it.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 05:20 PM

I don't sing Amazing Grace because I'm tired of it. I think it's an overdone song. We sing a lot of gospel tunes in our trio - I don't have to agree with the theology to enjoy singing the song. But I also wouldn't have to be a hooker to sing "House of the Rising Sun". Songs enable us to take on characters that we would never want to emulate. Otherwise no one would ever sing "Banks of the Ohio" or "Delia".

Steve - get back in the studio. I want to hear a followup to your duet recording with Robin Bullock. Any chances of that?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 05:23 PM

I found the Matt Watroba recording, Mick - it's good. Turns out the lyrics for "That Kind of Grace" were posted here (click) - by some guy named Joe Offer...

-Joe Forgetful-

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 05:25 PM

About three decades ago, I worked as an announcer at a classical music radio station. One afternoon, I put the afternoon's scheduled featured work on the turntable, announced what it was and who was doing it, started the turntable, flipped off the mic switch, and sat back with my feet propped up, a fresh cup of coffee in my hand, and enjoyed the music.

The light on the telephone lit up (the phone in the studio didn't ring in case the mic was open; a light told you that you had a caller). I picked it up and said, "Good afternoon. KXA."

The caller—with a European accent—was furious! He launched into a tirade about the station playing "Nazi music," and threatened alternately to have me fired or have the station's FCC license pulled. There was no calming the man. He was in a frenzy of rage. Finally, he ran out of steam and hung up.

I did a little research, and eventually discovered that the featured work of the afternoon had been a favorite of Adolf Hitler's.

It was a Beethoven piano concerto.

Hitler was also fond of Richard Wagner's operas, and to compound the felony, Wagner was known to be fiercely anti-Semitic. But this didn't prevent him from writing some pretty magnificent music.

Somehow, I don't think listening to—or performing—Beethoven or Wagner, or for that matter, Richard Strauss (another of Hitler's favorites), is an endorsement of Nazi politics, or that going to a Wagner opera means one approves of anti-Semitism. It isn't exactly as if Wagner is still receiving royalties and you are supporting him financially.

I have a repertoire of a few hundred songs. Since the vast majority of them are traditional, and the authors—and the beliefs, peculiarities, and peccadilloes of the authors—are not only unknown, but unknowable to me, I take a song or other work of art on its own merit, not on what kind of an odd-ball the composer or artist might have been, or who else might also like the work.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 06:39 PM

*IF* the issue was about a living composer with nasty political views, and boycotting a song could deny him royalties and put pressure on him, then it would be useful...but 250 years in the past? Nope...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Greg B
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 06:49 PM

I don't know which is worse--- slavers or people who try to tell
other people what ought not be sung.

But seriously, 'Amazing Grace' is a song that has been validated
by its singers, and the times at which they've sung it. So very
often it's been sung at particularly poignant times in the lives
of individuals and groups to express the sentiment that there's
something bigger than all of us which binds the universe together.

It's the singer--- not the author--- and the times and company
in which it's sung that bespeaks the merit of a song.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: gnomad
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 07:14 PM

I don't sing this (I hold no religious beliefs) but I have always assumed its singers were expressing wonder and joy at their personal salvation, rather than just echoing that of an earlier reformed sinner. As such it seems to me that the exact nature of the sin would be a secondary matter. Have I simply had the wrong end of the stick?

Either way I recognise a fine song, as do many other non-believers I am sure. That I cannot subscribe to its sentiment is my loss.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 07:34 PM

You could always consider that it may have been what my brother calls Divine Inspiration that brought it out of Newton; in those few moments it took him to write it down, he was "At One" with whatever higher being he believed in or you might believe in.

Just a suggestion. I know there are times when I listen to Mozart, Beethoven and others, including some folk, when I feel the music is absolutely sublime and directly channelled from someone's heart which was fully open to receiving when they wrote it. My brother leads a fairly miserable life, but when he sets aside his self-pity and starts in on his compositions, he goes to another realm. The music he writes in no way reflects his circumstances at the time; as far as he is concerned it is divinely inspired. It certainly sounds like it to a lot of folks. Perhaps that was the case with Newton.

Imagine having a flash of clarity like that which would inspire such a beautiful song. It would be difficult to sustain that and probably wouldn't be very healthy for one to do so, anyway.

Well, that's my metaphysical two cents worth...:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 07:53 PM

"I don't know which is worse--- slavers or people who try to tell
other people what ought not be sung."

(Well, I'd pick the slavers on that one, and I really hope you would too.) In any event, I'm not telling anyone to do or not do anything. I do, however, hope thaf folks who choose to sing Amazing Grace, and feel warm fuzzies when they do, will keep in mind the horrible things that the chap who wrote it did, things that he never fully repented of.

A broader question, of course, is the extent to which the politics of artists should affect our enjoyment of their art (Wagner is a fine example, Hank Williams, Jr. is another). It is a tough question, and I think it's important one to ask. I'm a bit taken aback by the folks who think it is ogre-like of me to do so.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 07:55 PM

and feel warm fuzzies when they do

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:05 PM

I don't think you are ogre like for asking. Sounds to me like you are a performer with a conscience. I hope your concerns are alleviated by the comments so far.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:17 PM

I would just like Steve Baughman to clarify whether he is in fact the Steve Baughman, acoustic guitar virtuoso, or whether he is an attorney who just happens to share the same name as aforememtioned virtuoso.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Greg B
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:17 PM

"I do, however, hope thaf folks who choose to sing Amazing Grace, and feel warm fuzzies when they do, will keep in mind the horrible things that the chap who wrote it did, things that he never fully repented of."

Yeah, and every time I drive down a country road and look at the
beautiful stone walls, I'll keep in mind that slaves built them. That
way I can suitably ruin the whole experience. Hell, maybe I'll just pull over, pick a rock off the top and bash
my brains out with it in order to assuage my guilt at having enjoyed
the view.

While I'm at it I'll light my Nike sneakers on fire, and toss my
Victorian era concertinas into the blaze. After all, the former
are made by underpaid foreign labor and the latter were made by
industrial revolution era wage-slaves.

Guess I can dump my guitars onto the blaze, as well--- they've
got rain forest wood in them.

Maybe I'll just sit at home and do nothing at all, that way I won't
offend anyone. No, damn it--- the studs in my house's frame were
made from clear-cut Pacific Northwest forests, and the gypsum in
the wallboard was probably strip-mined.

If you don't want to sing Amazing Grace, then don't.

But do stop trying to poison it for everyone else, and FOR GOD'S
SAKE RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S YOUR PROBLEM NOT EVERYONE ELSE'S. If you
have the flu, you don't cough on other people on purpose. So maybe
stop trying to make your personal neuroses contagious as well.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:29 PM

I would just like Steve Baughman to clarify whether he is in fact the Steve Baughman, acoustic guitar virtuoso, or whether he is an attorney who just happens to share the same name as aforememtioned virtuoso.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: maeve
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:39 PM

I see no reason that you shouldn't wrestle with this question if you have the need. Conversion must be joined by repentence and change. There are (thankfully) no rules regarding the required time span for this gradual spiritual growth to take place, except that it does need to be before death.

I've read various Newton biographies over the years, and have great respect for him and for his wife, for struggling with the need for personal change and committment to God's standard in place of a personal human standard. Perfection is not required. God is particularly concerned with reaching those of us who struggle and fail miserably. The journey is its own reward.

I treasure the song and the details of Newton's life because it gives me hope and comfort. His is a perfect example of imperfect man beginning to recognize his shortcomings and the very long learning curve that follows, leading him toward becoming a child of God. Put it into whatever translation you must, but allow yourself to work through what your personal goblins might be. It's between you and God. Meanwhile, I'm glad you asked. Find a song you can sing with your whole heart.

maeve

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:43 PM

"I would just like Steve Baughman to clarify whether he is in fact the Steve Baughman, acoustic guitar virtuoso, or whether he is an attorney who just happens to share the same name as aforememtioned virtuoso."

I am both the Celtic guitar player and the attorney. We're the same person. I'm a rare visitor to Mudcat, but I was at a song session last night and had a reaction (for the first time in my life, by the way) to Amazing Grace. I thought I'd see what folks here had to say about the issue. Thanks for being here to discuss.   

As for Greg B's tyrade, (may I call it that? I think that's what it was), I am, again, puzzled by the tantrums folks are throwing over me raising the issue. Could it be that people don't like to admit that the personal really is political? Is that really too inconvenient a truth for us to want to bother with? I applaud Greg B for recognizing that some human suffering is behind our Nike shoes, a lot went into the stone walls that the slaves built, and our rosewood guitars may indeed contribute to rain forest destruction. What I don't understand is the angry energy over one bringing the point up. These things are not just "my problem." The issue is one with broader implications.

I recognize that we've gone from an old song to current events, but I suspect that there is benefit in recognizing, as Greg B does, that some unpleasant truths might lurk behind the things that we enjoy. Better to know about those truths than not to, eh?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:49 PM

"It's a fair question...". Actually, like SRS, GregB, Don Firth and others, no, I don't think so, not with its connotations of rule-setting. But I would grant that Steve asked the question innocently, albeit in the grip of some anger. Me, I like to remind myself of Si Kahn's line, when I get close to being overly righteous:

"I'm afraid of what you're doing in the name of your god..."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:57 PM

"not with its connotations of rule-setting"

Amen, rule setting is bad. But awareness is good, even when it's of bad things.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:58 PM

Mr. Newton is long dead. He tried to come to terms with the errors in his life that he saw, which is the best that any of us can do. None of us are in a position to judge him, in part at least, because none of us know what was in his heart.

Slavery still exists in this world. Both children and adults are still sold into bondage in West Africa, there are slaves held in Sudan, Pakistan, Haiti, India, and many other places. Check this for an overview-Slavery in the Modern World

Whether you sing "Amazing Grace" or not has no effect on the situation of human beings who are being held in slavery. There are a lot of other actions that you can take which may make a difference. The choice, as always, is yours alone.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:04 PM

"Awareness is good".
Can't fault that, Steve. And indeed, I learned much in this thread about Newton that I didn't know before.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:20 PM

But Steve, where does it stop?

Some music critic took Leonard Bernstein to task for "plagiarizing" Beethoven, pointing out that for the song "There's a Place of Us" in West Side Story, Bernstein had used a passage from the slow movement of Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto, "The Emperor." "Plagiarize!?" snorted Bernstein. "That's a bit harsh. Yes, I did use the tune. Composers have always borrowed from each other. Standard operating procedure. Besides, that's far too beautiful a melody to be used only once!"

In fact, according to Carl Czerny, a friend of Beethoven's, the slow middle movement of the concerto is based on an Austrian pilgrim hymn (!).

So—for enlightenment and education of the listener who was upset by my playing a Beethoven piano concerto and who seemed to believe that Beethoven should not be played because Adolph Hitler happened to be fond of his music, I would suggest that he should also beware of Bernstein and avoid listening to music from Broadway musicals like West Side Story. And a great deal of other music! Because unless you have a very good memory for a lot of melodic and harmonic figures, you might inadvertently find yourself listening to something that will leave you morally and ethically polluted. Perhaps he should stop listening to music altogether!

I am certainly aware of the evil in the world, and I am hardly idle when it comes to trying to combat it whenever I can. But speaking of pollution, I am not going to pollute my own aesthetic enjoyment of music or any of the other arts by researching and carefully scrutinizing the moral character of every artist whose work I consider listening to, seeing, playing, or singing in order to determine whether I should be doing so or not. The moral character of the artist died with him. The art lives on. And unless it consists of propaganda for something that is morally remiss, it is no longer a moral issue.

A work of Art stands or falls on its own merits. What baggage the artist may or may not have carried is not relevant.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:31 PM

I think Steve brings up a perfectly valid point.

whether you agree with it or not, it is surely possible to have a reasoned discussion about it without all the aggressive defensiveness.

to take a wildly hypothetical case, if an absolutely beautiful song were discovered, and it was later established that it had been written by Hitler, would anybody sing it ?

I did say wildly hypothetical ...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:39 PM

"But Steve, where does it stop?"

Yes, Don, that's the tough question. Do we get to where we assume an affirmative duty to investigate the political origins of music before we enjoy it? I'd say no. The KKK uses one of my favorite hymns regularly (Old Rugged Cross). It will not stop me from enjoying the song. It might, however, give me pause about starting the song at a multi-racial song circle in Alabama. Point is, more awareness is good.

But you're right. Where does it stop? I'd invoke my favorite philosopher here, Richard Rorty, who noted that by the absence of absolute rules we are forever condemned to "muddling through." And we muddle through better when we have more awareness than when we have less. Not being naive about the origins of Amazing Grace is better than being naive about them.

You probably find my answer (Rorty's)as unsatisfactory, as I do. But I think it's all we've got.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:39 PM

And, to contribute a little bit of thread drift to the discussion, is there any practical way to prevent bagpipers from ever playing this?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Greg B
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:39 PM

Talking about 'reasoned discussion' in one breath while in
the next playing the 'Hitler card' strikes me as an exercise
in studied rhetorical irony...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:40 PM

Murray, that's a great point. And to the extent that folks admit to discomfort about enjoying a Hitler hit, they acknowledge the legitimacy of my original question.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:45 PM

It is a far cry from "being naive" about the song's origin to require others to think about slavery 200 years ago whenever they sing it. Are you asking them to ignore its spiritual statements, and disregard the elegant simplicity of its tones, and ignore the elegance of its structure?

Here's an idea: how about granting others the right to place their attention where they please? As I said up thread if you feel obligated to think of certain things when hearing certain songs, do so, and act accordingly, but recognize that this is your own personal choice or idiosyncrasy, not something you have some right to impose on another. Why try to make a requirement out of such a thing?

A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:18 PM

As long as one is generally aware of slavery and the multiplicity of other such crimes against humanity, I don't really see that the specific knowledge that Amazing Grace was written by a slave trader, or that the operatic tetralogy, The Ring of the Nibelungen was written by a person who, among other things, was anti-Semitic does anything of value. Newman and Wagner are both dead. Focusing on the unadmirable characteristics of these two people doesn't decrease slavery or anti-Semitism in any way.

The only thing such a focus accomplishes is that it taints one's own enjoyment of otherwise fine works of art.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:22 PM

. . . "Newton," that is. . . .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:45 PM

"but recognize that this is your own personal choice or idiosyncrasy, not something you have some right to impose on another. Why try to make a requirement out of such a thing?" Amos.

Jeez, Amos. . . will you quit feeling like I'm some Nazi trying to "impose" stuff on you? Get it straight: no "requirements" are being imposed, proposed, pronounced, advocated, legislated, or otherwise decreed here. OK?

Don, great point. And if you really think that, then you will have ZERO concerns about enjoying, performing, recording, sharing, and otherwise propagating a lovely little piece of music composed by Adolf Hitler (Murray's point above.) Is that the case? Consistency requires that you say "yes." Otherwise, you'll have some explaining to do :-) But your point is a great one. It has gotten me thinking, much as this entire thread has. I am eager to hear your reply to my question.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 12:14 AM

Steve Baughman -- If you've just found out that Newton was a slave trader, you're the one who has been naive--the song's history, and the man's history have not been kept secret--I can only conclude that, for some reason or another, you've chosen to avoid the details of the history of Slavery, and, possibly even the racism that necessarily went along with it.

As an educated, American adult, and a legal professional, you should have started to deal with this a long time ago. A little bit of revulsion is good for you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 12:32 AM

Hi Ted. Actually, I have know for a long time that Newton was a slave trader, it's just that I believed he had written ths song right after the dramatic conversion at sea and then given up slave trading in response to that conversion. (Incidentally, you'll find that I am not the only one who has fallen prey to believing this myth.) I only later learned that he kept up the slave trade until he couldn't any more. That's not the Newton I thought we all knew and loved.

I hope you'll forgive me for not having all these facts down earlier. And I'll forgive you for making assumptions about my state of knowledge.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:35 AM

I said " If you've just found out that Newton was a slave trader, you're the one who has been naive."   A conditional statement--and since you haven't just found out, the condition isn't met, and we're both off the hook;-)

Looking at my comment, it seems more harsh than I meant to be--my point wasn't meant to be personal judgement--

it was just a reflection on the fact that :
A)a man who had done many odious things did a great thing,
B) that we remember many men who did great and odious things,and
C)to make things easy, we lean toward ignoring one or the other--which, we really shouldn't do--

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:37 AM

Joe, I can tell you, it's real.

Did you know that Newton himself was captured and held as a slave for a period of time until he escaped? Haven't seen that mentioned. Did you know that slavery has thousands of years of history and social and cultural acceptability. The "NOW" generation always seems to pass judgment on the previous generation(s) because the "NOW" generation is so superior.

Please don't think that I am condoning slavery. I find it as one of the most odious institutions. I'm thinking of primarily the enslavement of Africans as the work engines of the incipient industrial revolution. Slavery was practiced by the American Indians and virtually every ancient society. Slavery practiced by the Israelites provided a means of protecting and nourishing the indigent and freedom was granted after 7 years. If the slave asked and his lord agreed he could become that person's slave for life. It was somewhat akin to adoption. Roman slavery could be much harsher but some Roman slaves were quite important people and held positions of power. Women were not even considered people unless they were married. They were chattel, property. A "loose" woman had but one source of income. Also throughout history multiple marriage has been the norm. It's amazing what culturally tinted glasses allow us to see.

As for the song Amazing Grace, in and of itself, it is about Christian conversion. It is the revelation of, first, the self as seen by God. And it is a revelation OF God to the person who has been apprehended with the goods, red handed and totally guilty and desperately in need of forgiveness, salvation. That salvation is afforded in the person of Jesus Christ Who has paid the penalty for our sins. And most of all, it is about God's love and forgiveness which changes lives. That's Grace, unmerited favor with God. You can't do anything to earn it. If you could then Christ's death would have been unnecessary. It's a free gift available to any and all who acknowledge him (Jesus) as God's remedy for Mankind's lost situation. Not lost? Don't worry about it then. Christianity is not for you. As Christ told the pharisees, he came to seek and to save those who were lost.

Christian salvation or conversion doesn't instantly make you perfect, at least not in this world. It does set one's feet upon a new path and there are a lot of growing pains along the way. You are not perfect, just forgiven. You can get up and keep going after you may have stumbled or fallen. You understand that there is a real personal opposition to you and that you have just now begun the real battle against evil. "Through many dangers, toils and snares". You find that people you once couldn't stand to be around are now your best friends and allies. You'll find that some of your old friends will distance themselves from you. This includes family members and other folk you thought you knew. You find some people think you're nuts or need a make-believe friend to get you through life, and on and on. And through it all you will find that it is God who is faithful and not you because it is HIS Grace that saves you. It is a gift. That's what grace is. Thank Him if you know Him and keep on. It truly is amazing.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:54 AM

"it was just a reflection on the fact that :
A)a man who had done many odious things did a great thing,
B) that we remember many men who did great and odious things,and
C)to make things easy, we lean toward ignoring one or the other--which, we really shouldn't do-- "

All points well taken, Ted. No hard feelings. Jeez, I can't even say I disagree with you.

As for your comments, Slag, that's a whole new subject. I'll just say that I fail to see what's so "amazing" about the kind of grace you speak of. I have never seen any difference between the kind of Christian conversion you describe and a general maturing process of the sort that Newton himself perhaps made, and that most of us make as we start acumulating more life experience. Yes, I get that Christians are fond of saying that their conversion is supernaturally effected, but that's going beyond the evidence. Their conversions bring about changes that are no more fundamental than the changes experienced by those who convert to non-Christian religions, have near death experiences, fall in love, have a profound travel experience, discover Rumi, etc. etc. etc. Nuthin' "amazing" about that.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:23 AM

Steve, you've started a great discussion, so don't lose heart.
By the way, I wish more people would discover Rumi. Perhaps it would help them learn to be a bit more tolerant.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:46 AM

There has to be a limit, for practical purposes, to how much consideration should be given to the character of the artist when judging a work of art. Heck, I'll be even more general: The same applies for any act.

An act of kindness or charity is not invalidated by the character of the person. Even criminals can be good parents or good friends to someone. In the UK, there is increasing resistance to the tabloids' raking up the past of politicians (before they entered politicas, or when they were teenagers, for example) in a frenzy to create headlines.

The act should stand and get judged on its own merits. Does it though? The recipient of a gift may consider how rich the donor is and judge it of a higher worth of the donor is poor. That is not judging the act, but the discomfort of the donor - not the same thing.

It's symbolism that gets in the way of clear thinking. A song may be symbolic of something, or used symbolically by a certain group of people, with which we do not want to be associated; the temptation is to drop it. In a sense it depends on our own moral strength to withstand unfair or unjust comparisons.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:27 AM

Sufism is a WAY of being religious. For sure. A very worthwhile study. As for conversion: life changing, viewpoint altering experiences, while not "common" are familiar to all races, creeds and tribes. The Buddha under the Bo Tree, for example. I wasn't trying to be mutually exclusive but I was speaking from personal experience. I can readily relate to similar profound experiences of other. There are many, many points in common to each.

The other point I attempted to make was that we cannot judge a work of art or a good deed by the character of the person who does the art of performs the deed. And, one should always be careful in judging someone without really knowing or understanding the context of their life and historical situation. Each age, each era has its own standard of truth and general idea of what is right and wrong. Some of these standards appear to be universal and timeless e.g. it is wrong to murder. Others, like polygamy are more nebulous or have the weight of history behind it. Judge "Amazing Grace" for it's internal logic, its own beauty. If it doesn't speak to you try "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag"! And don't be afraid to appreciate something just because the originator may have a skeleton or two in the closet.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:51 AM

When people are involved in some institutionalisd evil, and come to recognise this, there are two ways of dealing with it. One is to find a way of removing themselves from it, and the other is to try to reduce the damage being done to people, which may mean continued involvement.

It isn't always obvious that the former way is the right way or the best way. Would it really has been best if Oskar Schindler had cut all his connections with the Nazi machine and with the slave factories?

Deciding how to act in that kind of situation must be extraordinarily hard, especially when personal selfish motivations can be entangled with sincere attempts to make things better than they would otherwise be. As was the case with Schindler - and very probably with John Newton.

I don't think we should pride ourselves on the clean hands we have done nothing to clean, and rush to easy judgements about how others have dealt with these things.

And we shouldn't be too confident that people in other times will not look at the things we are involved in in the world today and think that our hands are far from clean.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:25 AM

What about people that have affairs or leave their wife and kids? Not the noblest behaviour.
Does that stop me from enjoying and singing "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" or, "Turn Your Lights Down Low"?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:59 AM

What sins will future generations see? Will it be the cars? The pollution? The processed foods? Fox News?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Grab
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:11 AM

There WAS a widespread awareness during Newton's time that slavery was NOT ok

No there wasn't. There were people who thought that it was bad, sure, but this isn't the same as "widespread awareness". In the US today, there are people who think it's bad for the environment to drive an SUV every day or run air conditioning in your house in summer instead of just opening windows and closing shutters, but it's safe to say that this isn't a "widespread awareness" in the US as a whole...

Slavery wasn't just legal then, it was actively supported by governments and the Catholic church. It was even supported by Africans themselves - as has previously been pointed out, Europeans were usually simply exporting African slaves who had already been captured and enslaved by other Africans.

Also consider the attitudes of the time. The press-gang was a widely-practised way of getting new recruits for the Army and Navy - essentially another form of slavery. Lower-class soldiers were basically thought of as subhuman cannon-fodder, and wars were started between the European nobility over trivial matters which resulted in massive slaughters of men. The unemployed ended up in forced labour in the workhouse - essentially another form of slavery - and even workhouses were an improvement on the previous situation, because at least they got some food and medical care, and women weren't forced into prostitution.

Basically, this wasn't a time when human rights featured very highly. So although we can criticise slavers by modern standards of morality, we're not in a position to judge them by the standards of *their* day.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Greg B
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:18 AM

Perhaps a more accessible example is that the Christmas carol
"Away in a Manger" was a no-no in Roman Catholic institutions
up until recently.

Why?

It was supposedly written by Martin Luther.

Sort of points up why the whole discussion is absurd. At some
point you get to where you toss out the Constitution of the
United States of America because a bunch of the guys who came
up with the underlying concepts and wrote and ratified it were
themselves, slaveholders. Note that when they figured out that
slavery was a bad idea, they amended it, rather than tossing it.

When they sing 'Amazing Grace' or play it on the pipes at a
fallen policeman's funeral, it isn't about Newton at all, his
conversion or failure to be genuine in same notwithstanding.

It's about the guy in the box.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:24 AM

This is the dumbest thread I have ever seen. What possible difference does it make? It is a beautiful hymn. I am sick of people who feel that we have to apologize for things our ancestors did and pander to whatever group it is that is whining and blaming acts committed hundreds of years ago for their own shortcomings. Slavery was a bad thing but I had nothing to do with it and I owe no one an apology for it. Political correctness or what ever it is called today, is ruining this country. We are what we are today, not what our ancestors were.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:27 AM

I'm not sure any conversion or faith is absolute, and I like to imagine that the continued use of Amazing Grace is the continued trail of Newton's and anybody else's conversion and faith. That he was or wasn't entirely of pure heart isn't so much the matter as he apparently struggled somewhat with faith, and AG might just be the hope in his faith, however challenged. Better hope than doubt for any disciple.

It's far from my favourite hymn, though I don't dislike it, but it is so overused. If I had a penny for every time I've heard it on pennywhistle, pipes, mandolin, voice, organ...I could buy a slave.

Sing it or not, but judge not. There are many other hymns of dubious beginnings.

Fwiw.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:03 AM

Like Steve B., I knew that Newton was a reformed slaver trader, but assumed (or was led to believe) that he reformed at the time of his conversion experience, not years later.

So this is all very interesting, but I agree with those who vote for singing the song without regard for my judgement (or anyone's) of the composer's moral character.

But ~ again ~ this has been a very interesting and informative discussion.

PS, to GUEST,Volgadon: It had never occurred to me that "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" celebrated an audulterous love affair. I'll have to look up the lyrics for both songs you mentioned.

I neither condone nor practice adultery, but I do thoroughly enjoy singing songs that include sly references to such activity. A longtime favorite: "Ain't No Tellin'," John Hurt's version of the traditional "Pallet on the Floor.":

Don't you let my good gal catch you here (2x)
She might shoot you, might cut you and stob you too,
Ain't no tellin' just what she might do.
...
Make me a pallet, down soft and low
Make it where your husband will never know...

I no longer expect anyone among my listeners to take these lyrics seriously. (When I was single and much younger, well, things were a little different.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:21 AM

This song has so endeared itself to many people that its origin is likely of little consequence to most of them. I am certain that there are other examples of works created by men of less than noble lives and deeds that transcend those roots, so long as the works have redeeming social or spiritual value in and of themselves.

You could look at it, assuming you are a religious person, as the Lord pulling good works through the least likely of channels for reasons known only to Him (or Her?).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Kim C
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:51 AM

"And, to contribute a little bit of thread drift to the discussion, is there any practical way to prevent bagpipers from ever playing this?"

I tell you what, if I NEVER hear it on the bagpipes again, I'll be one happy camper. Like Wesley, I think it's an overdone song in spite of its enduring beauty, and one Mister and I won't sing unless someone specifically requests it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 12:16 PM

No, it's a hideous song.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:06 PM

Ah, SO! I wondered how long it would take for this discussion to slide into the realm of the purely hypothetical. "A lovely little piece of music composed by Adolf Hitler."

Here's something to consider:   No person is the villain in his own movie.

I won't go through the murky convolutions of Adolf Hitler's beliefs, but they were colored by a number of factors, not the least of which was a liberal dose of Friedrich Nietzsche's philosophy, especially Nietzsche's concept of the Ubermensche, or "Superman." He believed that the "Aryan Race" (in his mind, tall, blond Teutonic/Nordic types were that Aryan race (somewhat oblivious to the fact that he was neither tall nor blond), and that it was high time that all the human chaff was swept away so that the Übermensch could take his rightful place in the world. Compounding this was his belief (shared by many Germans at the time) that Germany got a bum rap after World War I and that the treaties were unfairly restrictive, so they should be rescinded or ignored.

Hitler thought he was doing the right thing.

Most of the world considers him to have been a murderous madman. The moral here is—it is never a good idea to put a person with irrational beliefs and a bellicose nature in charge of a country. (Ahem!)

If, during his lurid career, he turned his hand toward writing music, I would certainly listen to it, at least once, as a matter of curiosity. Whether or not I would perform it myself and "have ZERO concerns about enjoying, performing, recording, sharing, and otherwise propagating" it, however, would depend on an number of things, not the least of which would be the piece itself, independent of who the composer was.

The question is much too hypothetical to be taken seriously.

Besides,

The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interréd with their bones.
                      —Julius Caesar, Act 3, Sc. 2, William Shakespeare

Give the Devil his due.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:12 PM

...So let it be with Hitler…
The noble Goering
Hath told you Hitler was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Hitler answered it….
Here, under leave of Goering and the rest,
(For Goering is an honourable man;
So are they all; all honourable men)
Come I to speak in Hitler's funeral….
He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
But Goering says he was ambitious;
And Goering is an honourable man….

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:21 PM

We all know Hitler always had a song in his heart. Now that was a painter.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:30 PM

I don't think the rest of the speech really applies. As you said, Murray, this is a purely hypothetical case. "Wildly hypothetical." And when we start positing such hypothetical situations, the discussion can go to ridiculous extremes and become pointless.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:34 PM

So, if we are to ignore good writing because of the author's occupation should we also refuse to praise the works of known criminals, soldiers, prostitutes, lawyers?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: peregrina
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:50 PM

So how did Amazing Grace achieve the kind of popularity that results in the risk of it becoming too-often heard?

There is some nice information about that in the notes to the Smithsonian Folkways CD "Jean Ritchie and Doc Watson at Folk City".

Paraphrasing...
the notes say that when Jean and Doc sang the song together in 1963 it was still little known.
Now I quote: "the version that is seminal to the current popularity of this song was that recorded Newport Folk Festival of 1963. The singers were Jean and Doc with Clint Howard, Fred Price, and Clarence Ashley. Issued on Vanguard records, their version was soon covered by..... [others]... that it was their setting of the old song that led to its popularity is easy enough to prove becuase they used the first verse as a chorus, something that had not been done before. The popular recordings that followed also used the first verse as a chorus and all show their clear and unmistakeable evidences that Doc, Jean, Clint, Fred and Tom [ie Clarence Ashley, his other name] were carefully heard by those who took up this song of faith and made it a household possession of all Americans."--Notes by Joe Wilson...

If you are tired of the tune of Amazing Grace, check out the slow air 'Mrs Jamieson's Favourite' which can be found at thesession.org

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:59 PM

I'm with Bonzo on this one - shame he wasn't thrown overboard before he got to write it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:02 PM

It seems to me that most people will have an emotional reaction to any particular piece of music, whoever the composer might be. Same with paintings and sculpture. If we find out later that the creator of the piece was in some way flawed that really doesn't prevent us from feeling pleasure at experiencing their work. If our singing that song gives pleasure to others down the years who is to say that Newton's legacy was not good.

I can see where you are coming from Steve and can understand how you might feel. I think, though, that it is necessary to divorce the circumstances of the man's life from the beauty of the words of the song, which has comforted many over the years.

I had a work colleague in the 80's who would not listen to a certain singer because he was aware that the performer was homosexual. That guy denied himself a lot of good music simply because he did not like the singer's sexual orientation. That just seemed crazy to me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:06 PM

You will join me in singing and dancing the Fuhrer's favourite tune:"Der Guten Tag Hop-Clop"! All right, key of E?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:08 PM

What jacqui.c said!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:17 PM

actually, I have to agree as well with jacqui c and Don.

thing is, I am irrationally prejudiced in favour of Steve Baughman just because he is such a bloody good guitarist ....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Celtaddict
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:44 PM

This is a fascinating discussion, and even the 'rants' and sarcasm have been sufficiently modulated to allow it to continue without recourse to name-calling and other degeneration. Some excellent food for thought; repeatedly I find myself agreeing with at least part of what most posters have said. Thank you, Mudcatters!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:01 PM

Those of you who have read me at Mudcat know JotSC to be a pretty conservative fellow. Yet I own and still play hundreds of albums from the so-called 'folk scare' period. I'm in philosophical disagreement with many songs I play and enjoy (and I guess that means I disagree with the songwriter also). Generally I enjoy songs that have a more universal message rather than a specific one. But more than enjoying them, I take something from them that expands my way of thinking.

Frankly I don't care who wrote Amazing Grace, or what he was. I get chills listening to Judy Collins perform an a capella rendition of the song. I know where her heart is.

R. Strauss & Wagner were not performed in Israel for decades, but they now have been. If the Israel Philharmonic can play their music, I guess its alright for me to listen to it (not that I had let them influence me anyway).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:15 PM

I never really felt that I was a wretch, but authorities differ.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:16 PM

One of the reasons I said the song is overplayed is because of the media.Whenever a funeral or memorial service makes the evening news you KNOW that someone is going to perform "Amazing Grace". It's as if the media thinks it's the only song that exists. You know there had to be several other songs or hymns performed at any service - but what always gets the air time? Amazing Grace. I've warned my wife that if it's sung at my funeral I'll come back and haunt her.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:20 PM

To the point: "less than noble men..." is ALL of us. And that is exactly the message of the song. No one is perfect and we continue on because of the concept of grace. We can forgive one another. We can love the person and not his actions. "Where sin abounds, there does grace much more abound."

As for the tune? In matters of taste and beauty there is no argument.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:36 PM

Rev. Newton was regarded as one of the important and influential abolitionists in his time.   His writings were brutally honest about the sins and transgressions in his life, and probably contribute to the misunderstanding of him that set this discussion off in the first place. The thing to know, however, is that his written accounting of his life in the slave trade( was of great assistance to William Wilberforce, who fought in Parliment first to abolish the slave trade, and then to abolish slavery itself in the British Empire. Rev. John Newton Biography

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 06:59 PM

"As you said, Murray, this [Hitler hypo] is a purely hypothetical case. "Wildly hypothetical." And when we start positing such hypothetical situations, the discussion can go to ridiculous extremes and become pointless." Don Firth.

Don, Don, Don. Thou duckest the question. You are on record as saying that the politics and character of the writer is totally irrelevant to whether you will enjoy, play and share a piece of music(or do I misunderstand you?.)   If that's what you say, then a hypothetical question for you is fully appropriate. And to avoid you ducking further, let me clarify, Yes, Hitler wrote a piece of music that you think is REALLY COOL. And the question is, Are you still able without hesitation to enjoy, play and share that piece of music????

Again, if you say no, you've got some explaining to do. If you say yes, you're being consistent, (as long as you really mean it.)

Sorry if I'm being harsh with you, but you're making some great points in this thread and I want to see you follow your thoughts thru, not duck out when the hypo gets tough. (It's the lawyer in me. Can't be helped).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:02 PM

Yes, I've often been struck by the philosophical parallels between abolitionism and National Socialism.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:59 PM

What? (quack!) Me? (quack!) Ducking the question? (quack!) Who? (quack!) Me?

Okay, here it is:   If I thought it was a "REALLY COOL" piece of music, yes, I would still be able to enjoy, play, and share it. But not necessarily without hesitation. IF my audiences found it offensive, then I would probably back off. Since, in my capacity as a performer, I am supposed to be entertaining my audiences, if they took offense at the piece, then I would be 1) failing to entertain them, and 2) shooting myself in the foot by continuing to perform it because I may loose those audiences. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't enjoy it myself.

I would have to treat it like other songs that I know some people find offensive. I wouldn't sing raunchy songs at a church social or drinking songs at an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.

Okay, now how does that square with my considering the man who called the radio station (objecting to the Beethoven piano concerto as "Nazi music" because he had heard that it was one of Hitler's favorite pieces of music) a brainless, hypersensitive twit?

Beethoven was often surly and rude, he was frequently behind in his rent, and sometimes he didn't bathe that often. But he was dead before Hitler was born. Save for the fact that he was a musical genius, he hardly to blame for the actions and attitudes of those in the distant future who liked his music. If Hitler liked the music of Beethoven, Wagner, and Strauss, well, bully for Hitler! It shows, at least, that he had a touch of musical taste (unless he liked them, not for their music, but merely because they were German). But to blame those composers for what Hitler did is just plain stupid! And wanting to deprive other listeners of enjoying Beethoven's music just because he had issues with it is just a little fascistic in and of itself!

Okay?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:09 PM

Wilberforce, who Mr. Baughman may have less disdain for, was a child in Rev. Newton's church, and Newton encouraged him to pursue his work against slavery--Wilberforce later called on Newton to make public his remorse on his involvement in the slave trade. It is wrong for Mr. Baughman to assume that Newton bore no private regrets til his "public" statements--most people, even now, hold progressive beliefs privately but refrain from public statements and social activism--

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:21 PM

The "Hitler" analogy is not merely hypothetical, it is totally irrelevant in relation to John Newton. A more relevant analogy might be with the man I mentioned in an earlier post - Oscar Schindler. A man who was far from being flawless, living in a desperate time, a mixture of altruism and self-seeking, and a saviour for a lot of people. I don't think many people would have problems of principle in singing a song he might have written,

Hitler was painter, but a pretty poor one. If he had been a great artist would we feel we had a duty to destroy his painting? An interesting question to toy with, but not one we need to try to settle.

After all if Hitler had been a great artist he would not have been Hitler, and who know how his life would have unfolded. At a much lower level of evildoing it is notable that the fact that the painter Caravaggio appears to have been a murderer has not led to his paintings being shunned.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 09:40 PM

Okay, as some of you have failed to notice, I'm not really taking a position here. I started this thread by askimg if I was being silly with my reaction two nights ago to someone singing Amazing Grace at a session, and I asked this community what other people think of this. I have benefited from this chat and will now say that whatever Don Firth says, I agree with, (don't say anything stupid now, Don.)

I still think Newton was a bad boy, a really really bad boy, murderer and all that, (yeah, chaining folks up in the hull of your ships knowing full well that some will die on the journey is murder) and he was probably not fully repentant, (though I may have too few facts to claim to know for sure about his regrets.) That view of Newton will perhaps forever get in the way of ME PERSONALLY enjoying his music. Or maybe I'll get over it some day. For many others (apparently many many others,) it's not an issue.

In the meantime, I really hope not to hear Amazing Grace in the near future, or even in the intermediate future.

Thanks for being mostly civil in responding to my inquiry.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:36 PM

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, sigh, about time to move this thread to a new, somewhat lower classification?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:43 PM

"Don't say anything stupid now, Don."

Hey, c'mon, man! That's a helluva burden to lay on a guy!

####

One of the first books of folk songs I ever bought back in 1952 was Best Loved American Folk Songs (Folk Song U. S. A.), by John and Alan Lomax, copyright 1947, third edition. One of the songs in it was "Amazing Grace." It wasn't until some years later that I actually heard the song sung. I can't remember by who, but it was before Judy Collins' recorded it sometime in the early 1970s. Her rendition of it seem to be the first domino to be tipped over, because you suddenly started hearing it everywhere. A Scottish pipe band recorded it, then another, and another. It began being played during ceremonies following the death of national leaders, major personalities, police officers killed in the line of duty. . . .

In 1990, Bill Moyers did a PBS special on "Amazing Grace" (CLICKY; available on DVD), and that's where I heard about John Newton and how the song came about.

"Amazing Grace," usually played by a pipe band, has become a standard piece of ceremonial music commemorating almost any event in which sadness or grief may be a component.

Someone dies, a pipe band plays "Amazing Grace."

The kid next door's pet hamster dies, and as he's burying it in a shoebox out in the back yard, a pipe band marches in and plays "Amazing Grace."

You get a hangnail. "Amazing Grace."

You spill your beer. Lookout! Here they come again. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Celtaddict
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:01 AM

Thread drift alert:
Don Firth says:
"Here's something to consider:   No person is the villain in his own movie.
I won't go through the murky convolutions of Adolf Hitler's beliefs, but . . . .
Hitler thought he was doing the right thing."
This is pretty much what Will Smith said recently, that people tend to act for what they see as the best (even if what they see as 'best' is themselves having extreme power or riches, no matter how); he said in effect he doubted even Hitler got up in the morning and said, "Let's see, what can I do that is really evil?" The idea of evil for evil's sake seems to be a standard of cartoons and B movies but does not seem to figure in real life much. But a flock of folks who either did not bother to read or did not bother to think rose up shouting 'Will Smith is a Nazi lover.' Weird reactive populace. (This is related to the fact that niger seed, black thistle seed, is now marketed as 'nyjer' seed so ignorant people are not offended; rather like having folks demand your job if not your head for using the reasonable old word 'niggardly' which means stingy.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Celtaddict
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:04 AM

When my older son was about ten, he asked me, "Why do you always sing about things you disapprove of?" I asked what he meant, and he pointed out, with a certain justice (as I really enjoy sea music as well as old ballads), "Everything you sing is about drinking, fighting, womanizing, or killing whales."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:42 AM

Yeah, the first time I heard anyone go all "PC" over the word "niggardly," it surprised the heck out of me. Perfectly good word, meaning "stingy" or "miserly," and the word's etymology identifies it as of Scandinavian origin. No racial connections or implications whatsoever!

Celtaddict, it occurred to me that your son could say exactly the same thing about the songs I sing.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:04 AM

A quick scan examination of the information on the internet reveals that Rev. Newton became involved in the slave trade after he was pressed into service and traded, at sea, to a slaver. During his "employ" in Africa, he was essentially held in bondage himself--his "escape" being as a mate on a slaving ship. He commanded only two sailings, both after he had begun his religious studies--on the first, only six slaves died(and this was a time when even non-slave sailings often lost passengers and crew to disease), on the second, none, neither slaves nor crew, were lost.   

Though he experienced a religious epiphany, his religious development came from much study, in both secular and theological areas, over many years. He studied with the leading clerics of his day, including John Wesley--his writings were evangelical--he wrote extensively, using the baseness and depravity of his early life as as examples in the conversion of others.

Given the frankness of his writings, and his long service, more than forty years, as priest, curate, and rector, and as one of the leading evangelists of his day, and his later work as one of the leading voices for abolition, the idea that he wasn't "fully repentent" isn't born out by the evidence.

We move for dismissal.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:06 AM

And, incidentally, the famous melody, which, after all, is what the pipers play, is "New Britain", and was added to the verses in the United States, long after Newton's death.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:23 AM

Excellent info, Ted. If that's all true, I'd probably not dismiss the case, but I'd surely consider granting probation.

I've found no such info on the internet, could you share your source with me?

thx,
sb

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 07:50 AM

"I've found no such info on the internet" - you must have been rather cursory in your looking than, Steve.

One thing about the tune is, I gather, that it is extremely easy to play on the pipes (insofar as anything is easy to play on the pipes).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,steve baughman, esq.
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 03:46 PM

"He commanded only two sailings, both after he had begun his religious studies--on the first, only six slaves died(and this was a time when even non-slave sailings often lost passengers and crew to disease), on the second, none, neither slaves nor crew, were lost."

Well, maybe (probably?) I'm an idiot, but the above info has not appeared in the dozen or so Newton sites I've looked at. So since McGrath of Harlow apparently knows exactly where this ubiquitous info is, s/he might kindly direct me to it?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 04:00 PM

Besides, according to he Newton International Center Newton was a captain for six years. Also, his "conversion" was in 1748 but he did not give up seafaring until 1755. Did he only do two trips during that time? Again, I'll keep looking, but some of you are apparently very knowledgable about Newton and will hopefully share some sources with an honest seeker.

Newton Center link is here. As a very pro-Newton outfit, I'm surprised they don't have the info that Newton's defenders have provided above. http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:oW_eBCeB4XgJ:www.johnnewtoncenter.org/john_newton.htm+%22john+newton%22+slaves+died+commanded&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 04:06 PM

Sorry, but I'm on a roll, and the more I read the more I suspect some of the info provided above is nonsense (Newton only captained two voyages, only six slaves ever died on his ships. Sources please.

"Newton later recalled that routinely a quarter of his captives, sometimes as many as half, would not survive the trip across the Atlantic. But there were vast profits to be made from the sale of those who did survive." This is also from a pro-Newton site.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 05:10 PM

Here is my main source, and it includes Newton Biography, Cowper and Newton Museum sources.

Keeping in mind that, apart from ship's logs, the ultimate source for information on Newton's life is from his own works, I've looked for etexts of "An Authentic Narrative", but have so far come up dry.   He is one of the more intriguing characters of an intriguing time.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 05:13 PM

Tidbit for drifting thread: Niggling is a way of fishing. Instead of jigging (oddly, also a word with dubious racial overtones) the lure or bait one merely makes almost imperceptible movements. Hence the phrase "a niggling thought" picks up that connotation of tininess, a thought somewhere between the conscious and the subconscious mind.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 06:44 AM

Hitler was actually not bad as a painter, in a rather boardroomish style based on the Romanticism of a hundred years before. WAY better than, say, Thomas Kinkade or Winston Churchill.

There certainly WAS widespread recognition in the late 18th century that slavery was immoral. At least, there was in Britain (I have read a lot of the Scottish sources). It was an issue that the working classes could identify with, since they were being fucked over by successive goverments they had no more say in than a slave did. In America it was doubtless different, since the poor colonists were doing exactly what the Jamjaweed of the Sudan are currently doing only on a vastly larger scale, and no way could they have faced an issue elsewhere that might have turned round and confronted them with the moral implications of their own actions.

A few years ago very few people could have named the author of the words. (It seems nobody here knows the composer of the tune, either).   Maybe the best thing that could be done with this song is to reassign the credit back to Anon.

What other words is "New Britain" used for? What's *its* story? - the tune is now far better known than the words, and the words would have been left in oblivion without it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 11:23 AM

Jack- The words have been set--successfully--to a number of different tunes, several of which are still current in rural America.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Mooh
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 01:13 PM

If we're worried about whether we should sing it, should we mind St. Paul? He was a murderer, I was reminded today.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 01:25 PM

It's pretty fuzzy in my memory now (I saw the telecast some years ago), but if you can get a copy of the Bill Moyers feature on "Amazing Grace," as I recall, Moyers had a fair amount of background on Newton. If your local public library is sizable and has a good audio/video section, they might have it to check out. I know a DVD of the show has been released.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 02:09 PM

I have "Amazing Grace," sung by the Black group of Elder Gray and the Polaski [TN] Prayer Society, on a cd titled "John Work, III, Recording Black Culture," which Camsco probably has. An Amazing rendition in the leader and response tradition, with development of its own melody.

The 'Anon.' suggestion is ridiculous; an example of the reverse bigotism infecting apologists who would bury the past. Would you cut out Newton's name from "Olney Hymns," 1779, and all the succeeding hymnals that carry his words?

"New Britain," appeared in "Virginia Harmony," 1831, James P. Carrell and David S. Clayton (Winchester, VA).
Hmmm, were either of these composers or their families slave-holders? Would you then ban the melody as well? Let's have a good old Savonarolan book-burnin.'

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 02:19 PM

Newton commanded three voyages, not two, and nowhere in his "Thoughts on The African Slave Trade" does he claim that he lost only six slaves.

It is beyond belief that he could have sailed from the West Coast of Africa with a cargo of 250 slaves (which he did on his second voyage) and lost only six slaves.

It is, I suppose, possible that his final voyage with only 87 slaves could have been completed with zero mortality.

I think we need input on this thread from someone who has actually studied the original source material.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 02:40 PM

Steve:

Your reaction to Newton -- completely understandable in its association with brutality -- is nevertheless personal and is not an attribute of the song.

I do think you should not sing the song, because of the extreme discomfort it imposes on you.

However, I feel the song --any song-- MUST be judged on its merits, its import and its use as a vehicle. This particular song does not carry any message in it of those things that are so detestable, and the chances are god (IMHO) that at the time he wrote it, Newton was not being his detestable self, but was rising above that past, whether he stayed there or not.

On that basis, I should say "Yes", if it can be done well.


A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: robinia
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:17 PM

re the hypothetical "lovely little tune" of Hitler. not only would I sing the thing if it truly WERE lovely -- I'm struck by how quickly "right-thinkers" forget Hitler's stance on things that they themselves very much approve of: youth hosteling, Volkswagon, anti-smoking laws . . .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:20 PM

For anyone interested in the hymn itself:

The original "Olney Hymns" (by William Cowper and John Newton), published in 1779, several printings and editions, was reproduced in facsimile, first released in 1979, by the Cowper and Newton Museum.
Arranged in three books by Newton, are the many hymns by him and William Cowper. American editions began in the 1780s.
Genie posted Newton's original words to Hymn 41 Book 2 (first words Amazing Grace,) in thread 6791, 13 Sept 02: Hymn 41 Amazing Grace

The DT version put's together Newton's first three verses with three others (by Walker?, dropping Newton's last three; in any case it is not the original.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: robinia
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:22 PM

Or to expand a quote from one of Ivan Doig's novels: "Good ideas (and good tunes) ain't got no pappies."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:32 PM

Olney Hymns is on line:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/newton/olneyhymns.txt for the plain text version, which has a few typing errors; the pdf version is recommended, see under: Olney

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 07:27 PM

I like Murray's suggestion that we hear from someone who is a bit of an expert on Newton and the slave trade.

However, that the broader issue is whether it matters what kind of brute Newton was (or was not). I'm hearing most folks say it doesn't matter, as long as either 1) it's a good song or 2)he turned into a good guy later. I respect that.

I suspect that Newton didn't turn into much of a good guy until late in life, which is always the easiest time to do so. Do whatever it takes to make your money (Newton invested money in the slave trade long after he quit slaving) and then after you've secured a comfy nest egg start doing getting all moral about stuff, but never to the extent that your conscience tells you actually to relinquish any of your naughtily acquired gain. Best of both worlds, wealthy and feeling clean.

Sigh, . . .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 08:01 PM

Regarding the Hitler analogy (favored by demographic politicians, lawyers, and other sorts), would you refuse to drive on the Autobahn for moral reasons?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 08:05 PM

Sorry, that should have been political demagogues.

Good God, 'demographic politicians'? I really should preview before posting.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 08:11 PM

Yea, verily, robinia!

The comment has been credited to Martin Luther, John Wesley, and a number of other religious leaders who wrote hymns and put them to melodies well known to most people of their time. When some pathologically pious folk levied criticism that such "popular songs and bawdy ditties" were "unsuitable" for religious music, Luther, Wesley, or whoever it was, is reputed to have responded, "Why should the Devil have all the best tunes?"

Amen!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 10:03 PM

"Why should the Devil have all the best tunes?"
Well, He just picked up Amazing Grace, in my book :-)

Michael, I picked Hitler just cos he seems to be everybody's favorite villain. So he's convenient. I actually prefer Henry Kissinger.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 01:01 PM

"Why should the Devil have all the best tunes?" I think that was General William Booth who founded the Salvation Army. That's what the Sally Army says anyway, and they wouldn't be fibbing. Of course he might have been quoting Luther or Wesley.

Champagne Charlie is said to have been the tune in question. With a rewritten set of words.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 02:21 PM

Yes, Booth is known to have quoted it a lot and many folk associated with the Salvation Army insist that he was the first to say it. But the comment was around long before Booth.

Consensus seems to be that it actually was John Wesley—or more probably, Charles Wesley—who was the main hymn writer in the family. Lutherans, however, are prone to insist it was Martin Luther. But the hymns Luther wrote tended to follow the usual patterns or liturgical music of his day (somewhat four-square and ponderous, e.g., "A Mighty Fortress is Our God," later tidied up and arranged by Johann Sebastian Bach, who was Lutheran).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 11:16 AM

I apologize for having deserted this most enjoyable thread--I had more important (but less interesting) things to do--

Having plundered the web of it's Newtononia, the next steps required real investment--contacting the museum folks and buying the books-and that would have, by the present standard, been investing in slavery--which would have been wrong;-)

At any rate, I am curious about the source Steve's oft sited information on Newton's investments and holdings--my admittedly cursory searches found nothing on that--

Also, there is a sort of hobgoblin that keeps appearing, to the effect that if Newton had been sincere, he would have forsaken his ill-gotten gains--I think this a ridiculous idea--

There are many and high-minded and benificent people, from Gates to Soros,and various Rockefellers, down to the present company--all with some measure of wealth that they can dispense--and some of that is ill-gotten wealth--(in fact, there is a somewhat popular theory that all wealth is ill-gotten)--and yet there are few, no matter how goodhearted, who have forsaken their wealth out of regard for it's source.

My thought is that it is unreasonable to expect Newton to have done something that no one else, even in our "enlightened" times, does.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 01:02 PM

I'm still wondering if we should avoid driving on the autobahn, or using any infastructure that was built using exploited labor, for that matter.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 01:47 PM

This from the Cowper and Newton Museum, per my inquiry.

Newton captained 3 voyages:

Aug 1750 - Oct 1751 Duke of Argyle
Jun 1752 - Aug 1753 African
Oct 1753 - Aug 1754 African

Note, he's still going strong six years after his conversion in 1748.

As for disgorging ill gotten wealth, I do not agree with Ted, and in fact am surprised to hear him say so forcefully, that it is "a ridiculous idea." Hey, you steal, feel bad about it later, give the stolen stuff back. You kidnap, murder, etc etc, make a bundle, if you feel bad about that then disgorge that profit also. Not a radical idea. Unless, of course, you aren't fully repentant, just in need of some device to feel good about yourself again, in which case platitudes will do and no need to do anything that will affect your pocketbook. In consumer law it's common to make the bad guy disgorge ill gotten gains. Sure, it's a lot to ask of Newton, but is failure to do so is informative. Again, he made money on a deadly and unspeakably cruel practice (and, yes, the slave trade was controversial in England even during his time, it was abolished the year he died) later felt bad about it but not bad enough to suffer a little in the money department. Instead he took the easy way to a clean conscience, wrote nice songs and urged other people to stop doing what he made money doing. Sorry, that's not admirable, it's hypocritical. (History is full of people who renounced evil in toto, and then went from riches to rags because of a principle they believed in. It's not like we're asking Newton to be the first.)

As for Michael's Autobahn issue, I am not sure the analogy applies. Nobody thinks driving the Autobahn says anything about your views of Hitler. By contrast, I think singers of Amazing Grace are misled about Newton's nature. So, yes, drive the Autobahn and sing Amazing Grace, but recognize the nasty stuff that went into their making. And if the public begins to view your participating in those actions as an endorsement of their creators, then maybe you should consider abstaining.

Ted, I'll try to find that investment info for you. I read it at some seemingly reputable site.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 01:53 PM

Ted, just re read your post. Last week I wrote a check for $1500 to a client for something that I did about ten years ago that has been bugging me. Client never asked for the money and we've been out of touch for a decade. I could have just written a song for him.

Maybe that's why I'm pissed at Newton.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 02:01 PM

Guest, go piss somewhere else.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,tda
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 02:11 PM

"Nobody thinks driving the Autobahn says anything about your views of Hitler. By contrast, I think singers of Amazing Grace are misled about Newton's nature."

But what if driving down that thing you think my, what an amazing person must've built such an infrastructure?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 02:32 PM

Steve--

As I occasionally have to point out, my comments are intended to be taken l with the lilting irony that we can excercise when we are so removed from events as to be unable to impact them.

In this spirit, I'll point out that Newton has been dead for about two hundred years, so he is not able to comply with any request that you've made, no matter how reasonable it may seem to you.

As to your claim that history is full of people who have forsaken ill-gotten wealth--I'll grant that there have been some--but most kept the ill-gotten wealth--often with the assistance of those sworn to uphold the law--and neither spoke nor speak any regrets.

From the bits of Newton's writing that I have seen, he seemed a particularly stringent and unyielding Calvinist(as if there were any other kind!)--which I respect--and I think he had sincere regrets.

When it comes down to it, you are also stringent and unyielding about your principles, which I do respect--despite appearances to the contrary.

Given all that, I am not about to review the lives of all the lyricists I know of, with a view toward expunging the works of hypocrites and rascals from my repertoire.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 02:44 PM

"By contrast, I think singers of Amazing Grace are misled about Newton's nature."

I'm pretty sure that most people who sing Amazing Grace do so because it is a nice song, an expression of faith, or both. I can't imagine too many people who sing it are getting warm and fuzzy over Newton, if they even know who he is.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 03:55 PM

Here is the source for my claim that Newton continued to invest in the slave trade long after his retirmenent. It's the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A22084599

Ted, I think my only disagreement with you is that I think you're letting Newton off easy. But your points are well taken. Michael, yours also. Perhaps there are not many who think much about Newton when singing Amazing Grace.

Sad to say, there may be more of them after this long thread.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 03:56 PM

What if Amazing Grace was written by someone of a different religion or movement? You might have "Amazing Enlightenment" or "Amazing Jihad" or "Amazing Non-being"! How about "Amazing Humans"? Verses are already coming to mind, some unprintable (to me)! Would we still sing it? The melody stays the same. There is no such thing as a right tune or a wrong tune. The words determine whether the music is appropriate or not. I was really shocked when I learned that the stereotypical circus tune was entitled "Enter the Gladiator"! To me it just does not fit. But, Hey! That's just my opinion. Attack the message, not the mortal frame that bears it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,IRTWM
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 04:10 PM

That is valid only if it were written for the tune, which it wasn't.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 04:42 PM

"But what if driving down that thing you think my, what an amazing person must've built such an infrastructure?"

GUEST,Ida, not even a ripple in the grand scheme of things. It only indicates that the person who thinks that is an ignorarmus about history, and that in no way "glorifies" the builder.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,tda
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 06:03 PM

Exactly. Tongue was firmly in cheek, if that wasn't obvious.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 06:16 PM

Having been raised in a strict Calvinist environment, I never let anyone off easily. I do prioritize my indignation, however.

Genocide gets a lot of it, (and we've had lots of genocide in the last hundred or so years to be indignant about)--as does the ongoing traffic in slavery. We, with nudging from the likes of Wilberforce and Newton, stopped buying slaves long ago, but the Africans who sold them to us, among others, continue to sell them, and we mostly ignore it, and often patronize those who buy and use them--

I am also very concerned about the traffic in human organs in China, where it seems that untold thousands of political prisoners, regular convicts, and Falun Gong practitioners, have been and continue to be executed on payment of cash, so that their organs can be harvested for transplant--

And so it goes...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,vetoda
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 06:33 PM

Steve Baughman, do you drink coffee or eat chocolate?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 06:35 PM

Ted, the issues you raise are indeed FAR more important than whether folkies in the US sing Amazing Grace or not. Kudos to you for bringing them up. They are all the more important given that our personal consumption practices in the US have an effect on such things as slave labor in the diamond and silver mines and in Chinese prisons. And Lord knows how our voting practices bear on those issues. Would that we were all as passionate about these issues as we have been about John Newton's greatest hit.   

I trust you will agree with me, however, that since more knowledge is usually better than less we are better off knowing more about Newton than knowing less about him.

That being said, I'm ready to stop talking about Amazing Grace, unless, of course, another interesting comment comes up :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 06:54 PM

"Exactly. Tongue was firmly in cheek, if that wasn't obvious."

My apologies, GUEST,tda. But as you have undoubtedly noted, when it comes to "things PC," often beliefs are so extreme that one may attempt to indulge in a little humorous hyperbola, only to discover there are people who will actually believe something that you thought was a gross exaggeration. In that light, I mistakenly thought you might be serious. Again, sorry!

Curious, but the human being is a strange breed of monkey.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: GUEST,Peter T
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 06:56 PM

"Should we be singing this song??? Or should we leave it for the Klan? I'd sure be curious what folks think about this. "

I'm sure the original poster was wholly in earnest in posing the question. Try reversing the question. Would anyone suggest that we should sing nonsensical, unattractive doggerel because the saintliness of its composer demanded it?

Amazing Grace is probably sufficiently remote from its long-dead writer to be pretty-much value-free save for the words, tune and type of person singing it these days. Part of my rather limited guitar repertoire, I'm afraid, so it gets played willy-nilly. The folk process transmits and handles stuff, just like evolution.

"my lefty folky friends" - would they recognise themselves from that description? Thought the split these days was meant to be Libertarian/Communitarian, anyway.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 07:39 PM

Not to oversimplify what has become a multi-faceted and somewhat convoluted, not to say occasionally arcane discussion on the merits of this particular piece, I only have two small points to make.

1. It rarely serves any useful purpose to offer ex post facto
      criticism when we cannot truly know the mind of the author,
      despite the historic tidbits we have, nor can we truly
      know the harsher realities of the world in which he lived.

2. Can the music stand on its own merits and is it widely used and
      revered? If yes, then one may like or dislike the piece, but
      it seems to have stood the test of time - and of its origins.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 11:03 PM

"Steve Baughman, do you drink coffee or eat chocolate? "

Umm. . . . no to coffee, kind of to chocolate. I'm scared that this is a trap.   Getting worried.   Go easy on me.

sb

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 11:03 PM

It is always good to find out more about what has happened in history, and what historical figures have done--

In the course of this discussion, I've gotten to know more about Newton than I did-- (apart from details on his slaving, which I'd known about, I've learned about his relationships with Wilberforce and Cowper, and about his evangelical work, etc) I have also learned more about how the commerce in slavery operated(particularly about how the trading of arms fit into it), and I have read some first person accounts of the massacre of Indians and Chinese in California, and refreshed my memory on Junipero Serra---

All in all, a curious, but worthwhile excercise in revulsion.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 12:05 AM

Sitz em leben.<(I hope that's right. It's been a while) It really is difficult to look back in time with 20th/21st century enlightenment. We somehow assume those people had our understanding, should have known our ethics (much of which is still disputed to this day in many sectors). Junipero Serra was on a mission from God, i.e. from the Holy Roman Church, from the Pope and right on down the hierarchy to what? Enslave the Indians? That may have been the effect but his mission was to teach them the enlightened way of the Europeans, the Christians. He would civilize them. His heart was right. Had he not had such a burden for the poor heathen he would have stayed home, taught college, designed flying machines or some other useful thing.

Have you ever noticed that after some time has lapsed after losing a loved one, in most cases, you tend to remember the good things about the person and not the really annoying or bad things? It just kind of happens. We want good things and good memories and we tend to remember and focus on the positive contributions of the departed. Well, unless they were really vile beings like the above stated A. Hitler. The negative instances become cautionary examples. A good historian tries for accuracy in ALL aspects of an event or era but as for evaluating the same he/we all should look for the positive contributions, don't you think? And not toss the good on the scrap heap because of some human foible which we are ALL susceptible .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 07:46 AM

http://vision.ucsd.edu/~kbranson/stopchocolateslavery/
Are you willing to give it up on this basis?
If you are, then more power to you, but if you won't, when this is a very small thing, then it is ridiculous to expect Newton to have given up his entire wealth.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 09:44 AM

Slag--Here is a nice summary of the genocide that Junipero Serra supervised.Indian Country Diaries, California Genocide


I lifted this little comment, with a cited quote, from Lies I was Raised With--which is a long and meandering essay about the Native American Genocide written by an activist who once attended Junipero Serra Elementary School in Ventura--

>Serra's legacy was the death of at least half of California's native population, and a much >greater extermination rate in mission country, of around 90%.

>The authors of Indians, Franciscans, and Spanish Colonization stated,

>"Indian demographic collapse in the missions was not intended but intentional, since >Franciscan congregación [forcing the Indians into the missions and keeping them there under >force - Ed.] continued despite the negative impacts on Indians even though one civil official, >governor Diego de Borica in the 1790s, identified the problem and suggested solutions never i>mplemented by the Franciscans."[55] 

Whatever was in Father Serra's heart, it doesn't excuse genocide--and, even by the standards of his time, his treatment of the Native population wasn't simple a "human foible"---

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: MaineDog
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 10:08 AM

All Christians are black sinners before they get converted, and most do not get cleaned up right away.
The blackest sinner is the one who denies any sin.
God can use black sinners like us to get His message out. Do you think Newton is the only corrupt Christian that ever was?
The GOOD NEWS is that we can be saved, and imperfect people can help.
"Amazing Grace" is an important part of Christianity as well as folk music, so it will survive--forever.
MD

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Green Man
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 10:54 AM

Thi song should be 'Amazing Race' those of you who know me will know why.

;-)

GM

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 02:02 PM

This has been an interesting thread and I see validity in both sides of the issue. I'm not a Christian but I have always loved this hymn. At the graveside service for my brother I had my son take his boombox off into the woods and play a bagpipe recording of it from an unseen distance. I'm not sure if I would now, knowing what I know about the man who wrote it. Now I understand that in the 18th century being a pious Christian did not necessarily make you an abolishonist.
Many actually believed that by capturing and Christianizing the African "heathens" they were saving their souls, even as they enslaved their bodies. Some even pointed to a supposed biblical ordination of the enslavement of the black race: Gods imposition of that punishment on "the sons of Ham" after he derided his father Noah for his naked drunkenness. Hamite was a synonym for a black person well into the 19th century. That being said there does seem to be a certain amount of hypocrisy at play when a man speaks out publicly against an institution while profitting from it. He surely was aware of its brutality having been so closely involved with its practice.
    I find it hard to separate my personal feelings on a work of art from the integrity of its author. It's like when I discovered that Jack London was a racist. And I've never been able to enjoy the works of Wagner since learning of his anti-semitism, even if the conductor of the Israeli philharmonic has decided they're okay.(Beethoven is a different story. You can't fault him if some genocidal madman comes along well after his passing and enjoys his music.) Sometimes knowledge can be heartbreaking but it is still important to acquire it. Works of technology (i.e. driving your Volkswagon on the autobahn or DNA research in light of the recent racist propagandizing by James D. Watson) don't necessarily invoke the same feeling and it IS a personal feeling I'm describing. I certainly wouldn't try to stop anyone else from performing or enjoying "Amazing Grace". I'm just saying that I'll never hear it again without a certain reservation.
    On a lighter note I must disagree with artbrooks and Kim C. I've always thought "Amazing Grace" is the only song that SHOULD be allowed on the bagpipes, but don't tell my wife I said so. She loves the blasted instrument. ;^)
                           Neil

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 02:21 PM

"Many actually believed that by capturing and Christianizing the African "heathens" they were saving their souls . . . ."

For the most part, slave-traders neither 'captured' slaves nor cared much about the condition of their captives' souls. It was a business, a rotten business, and one that enriched Europeans, Africans and Arabs. The anti-slavery sentiment that fortified the abolitionist movement was indeed something new under the sun.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve baughman
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 05:43 PM

I have long been convinced that religion serves largely to justify folks in the pursuit of self-interest. God wants you to have what you want. So going and getting it is good, even if that means killing natives, trading slaves, buying stock in chocolate companies, accumulating wealth while your neighbors suffer, etc etc. The "prosperity preachers" of today are the most obvious symbols of this, but the phenomenon is ubiquitous.

Let's face it, people create God in their own image. Conservative Christians love the death penalty, war in Iraq, discrimination against gays, etc etc etc, and. . . lo and behold, so does God. Conservative Muslims hate America, and . . . so does Allah. Southerners used the biblical "Sons of Ham" (as Neill notes) to justify extreme exploitation of black people. The list is endless.

QUESTION: When has religious conviction ever substantially changed the behavior of a society for the better? When has it ever caused a society to forego empire, conquest, war, even though it believed that such actions would enhance their power? The only place I can think of might be Tibet, which stuck and strikes me as full of people with more than a nominal commitment to sacrificing for principle.

All this talk about Christians being "forgiven" seems to me vapid. Perhaps fogiveness gets you some better treatment in the afterlife (though Christians only pretend to know that) but it sure doesn't seem to make much difference to pre-mortem behavior.

If we could all be atheists we'd start holding ourselves accountable for our actions. That's when moral progress might take off. (Yeah, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc, were atheists, but they were commited to a Higher Ideology of the sort that skeptical thinkers would not be likely to embrace.)

Wow! I didn't mention Amazing Grace in this entire message. Maybe I'm getting over it!

sb

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 06:03 PM

Steve, three words:

Martin Luther King.

Some religious folks, and even religious leaders, actually manage to practive what they preach ~ albeit not many. It's the exception rather than the rule, granted ~ maybe it's the exception the "proves" the rule.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 06:22 PM

Steve--Before you get too carried away with you anti-relgious rants, check Matthew White's 30 Worst Attrocities of the 20th Century. And check some of the website it is a part of--which provides information on all the war/genocide/democide(government caused deaths) of the 20th Century. You'll find that the Atheists are way ahead (though the Christians get credit for their still impressive work)--

Looking at the numbers, one suspects that, though human-kind was able to utilize religious institutions for the work of large scale murder, the elimination of religion )really opened the floodgates. One tends to think that religion may have at least moderated the tendency that we've acted out since the days of Cain and Abel--

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 06:41 PM

"When has religious conviction ever substantially changed the behavior of a society for the better?"

Glad you asked, Steve. Let's see, off the top of my head . . . I'd say that the largely Christian abolitionist movement certainly changed 'society' for the better.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 07:03 PM

Excellent points. But please read the question.

QUESTION: When has religious conviction ever substantially changed the behavior of a society for the better? When has it ever caused a society to forego empire, conquest, war, even though it believed that such actions would enhance their power?

Ted, you're right, lots of bad stuff NOT in the name of religion, in fact most of it in the last century, but that's probably cos the 20th was the first century when there actually were lots of non-religious people around, coupled with lots of revolutions. (Just ordered a book on the Christian origins of National Socialism, if I get it read before this thread dies I'll report).

In any event, I don't think a scorecard is helpful. I'm asking for evidence of religious principles causing a society at large to forgoe nasty stuff that it could otherwise do to advance its power interests.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,tda
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 07:09 PM

Steve, the whole idea of a religion is that you are held accountable before your god for what you have done here. If you believe in an afterlife, you won't want to screw it up by your actions here. There are many bad Christians, Moslems, Jews, Buddhists, pagans, etc., who do not live their religion, even if they profess a fanatical adherence to certain aspects of it. There are plenty of atheists like that too, so really, we are talking about a flaw of human nature, not religion.

BTW, what do you say about chocolate, as we need to practice what we preach, and not get upset over whether or not someone who died 200 years ago did.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 08:23 PM

M.Ted, Yes, you are making my point. I have studied Junipero Serra and have make a study of the California Indians, the Yokuts tribes in particular as they were native to my area and of Father Garcia who operated in my area. This was the time of the Inquisition. The views on individual lives didn't bode well for the temporal. What we see as twisted and tortured logic was straight and clear to those of the day. It IS hard to grasp what these people were thinking. A time of pillories, flogging, public executions and other horrendous practices. And if, in that day, you somehow saw things different from the norm you had best keep it to your self. The powers that were, were above reproach. Bold were those who pushed the Reformation. They weren't perfect either. When you read John Calvin's writings or Martin Luther, Zwingli, etc. you marvel at the venom and vitriol of persons and institutions with which they disagreed. You are doing exactly what I was trying to point out. You are judging these folks through your own standard of morality. You must understand THEIR standard before you can make a meaningful judgment.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 10:20 PM

"BTW, what do you say about chocolate, as we need to practice what we preach, and not get upset over whether or not someone who died 200 years ago did."   Guest tda

Okay, I went to the chocolate site you mentioned. Interesting. I suppose the same reasons that lead one to quit chocolate should lead one to quit wearing Nike shoes, stop consuming fossil fuels, boycott nearly everything from Chinese factories, and assume a monastic existence off the grid with a small vegetable garden in the back. This would be crippling to most of us non-saintly types.

I think a more realistic goal is compassionate consumption with an awareness that our spending habits have worldwide implications, that "the personal really is political." This might mean shopping at a co-op run by politically minded folks who research the origins of the stuff they buy so that you don't have to, buying Green when possible, recycling, giving up meat, or at least substantially cutting back on it, not beating people up, and NEVER voting Republican. All of this can be realistically incorporated by each of us into our lives. If we do so, the world becomes a slightly better place, even if we continue occasionally to sin with the odd Hersheys Kiss.

On a separate note, damn!!! Michael, you sent your reply to my QUESTION just as I was writing my complaint about nobody replying to my QUESTION. So it looks like I was ignoring you. Good point about Christians and abolitionism.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 10:31 PM

Whether I understand or appreciate their standards is a moot point. I don't have to understand their standards in order to come to my own conclusions about what they did. I am entitled to do that, and, in fact, according to many schools of thought, I am obliged to do that.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 10:33 PM

And, by the way, we still live in "A time of pillories, flogging, public executions and other horrendous practices."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 11:25 PM

More thoughts on Steve's question--a cursory reading of the Old Testament seems to show that the children of Abraham were a pretty disorderly bunch until Moses got them into line with the laws and all. Since then, they've tended to be pretty straight up, so I am going to step up and say that Judaism has worked out pretty well--

As to the Arabs(also children of Abraham), you pretty much have to figure that, given that the laws in the Koran are so strict, they must have been really over the top for Allah to come down so hard on them. I know it looks bad in the Middle East now, but most Muslims keep themselves together pretty well--think of how bad it would be if there were no Koran, and everyone was drunk all the time--

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: GUEST,David
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:59 AM

Many Jews that I know won't listen to Wagner because he was an anti-semite, and his music became hitler's favorite.    I have no great love for Wagnerian opera,   but the music, I believe, stands on its own.    I have no doubt that many of the world's historically great works of art and architecture were produced with the labor of people working under virtually slave-like conditions.    Should we reject their obvious beauty?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:16 AM

right, that's enough of "Amazing Grace".

Let's discuss Steve Baughman's beautiful Orkney Tuning instead ...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,tda
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:56 AM

Arabia before Muhammad was in a horrible state, and one of the practices that Islam put a stop to was that of murdering your baby girl.

"This would be crippling to most of us non-saintly types" ooh, but Newton ought to have crippled himself. Right.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 11:55 AM

As to the Atheism of Stalin, George Bernard Shaw once said that Soviet style "communism" was not Atheistic. They had simply replaced Christianity and Judaism with a new religion he called Statism.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:24 PM

So religion is to blame when religious people do wrong, and religion is also to blame when athiests do wrong(?) . . . .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:55 PM

I made it 4/5s of the way thru this thread before i saw the same arguments being repated a few times.

GUEST,Steve Baughman - for an interesting take on newton's true influence on the Abolitionist movement in England - watch the admittedly "feel-good" movie called AMAZING GRACE (imagine that!) which is all about Wilberforce and his life's work. Newton may have taken some time to extricate himself from the business of transport of salves. However, his later life as a cleric and his profound influnce an a young William Wilberforce had a direct effect on the latter's tireless committment towards ending slavery in his lifetime.

The film simplifies things yes, but it shows you that it wasn't the writing of Amazing Grace or Newton's dramtaic conversion that led to sneaky round about manuvering that resulted in the defacto abolution of slave trading in the UK - it was his influence on a boy that did it. By the time Wilberforce grew up to get invloved in government, this influence led him to have his own moment ot or two of being so close to God he could feel it and what he grasped in those moments was that his life was to be given over to the work of abolishing the slave trade.

Whether slavery was right or wrong had not been widely and openly debated at that time. it was deemed an economic "necessity" and polite company didn't discuss it. Wilberforce and his colleagues (who were even more radical than he) spent over 20 years forcing the discussion to take place.   

I would suggest that to answer the question for yourself of whether or not Amazing Grace is a moral song necessitates you delving a little deeper into the events and personalities that led to the abolition of slavery within the UK and territories controlled by the UK . I say this because it is only through reading about Newton's relationship with Wilberforce and then about Wilberforces life and struggle to edn slavery that you can grasp the full impact that newton and his song had on the growing recognition that slavery was an evil that could no longer be tolerated.

Watch the movie first for a quick primer - you can get it from netlfix.

Then, choose a good book on Wilberforce and read it.

You won't be sorry - it's a wonderful story that will at times disgust you when you read who was for continuing the salve trade and why. However, it is thrilling because in the end it was the combination of sheer force of will (wilberforce) and political cunning (his allies) that got the deed done. it almost makes you believe that with the right people in office, our own generation can turn things around. (almost but not quite!)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:11 PM

"think of how bad it would be if there were no Koran, and everyone was drunk all the time-- " False choice. How about no Koran and we're all compassionate atheists working for a better world, and only drunk some of the time, (and never when we're driving)? Sounds way better to me.

"This would be crippling to most of us non-saintly types" ooh, but Newton ought to have crippled himself. Right."          GUEST tda, you're being silly. I have gathered that you are clever enough to see differences of degree between earning lots of money from kidnap, murder and enslavement, on the one hand, and occasionally purchasing food and clothing that was produced by exploited people. Tell me you see that and that you were just not thinking straight in your last post. Or else I'll worry about you.

"So religion is to blame when religious people do wrong, and religion is also to blame when athiests do wrong(?) . . . . " Michael, I'm not sure I'm really blaming religion for very much. I am saying that it offers a convenient justification for self-interested behavior and that it has a very poor record of making people better people, (notwithdstanding some of the examples above. And even in those, one wonders whether it was the religious belief that caused the nice behavior. I do not know, for instance. if people were abolitionists BECAUSE they were Christians, or abolitionists who happened to be Christians.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:14 PM

Thanks, Dave's Wife. Good thoughts.
sb

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 02:57 PM

GUEST,Steve Baughman - I'm glad you appreciated my comments for what they were. It's not wrong to revisit the past or to ask questions about widely held beliefs about the past, a historical figure and the prevailing opinion of that person.

Historical revisionism is certianly not without it's faults mind you. I come at this from a background in Anthropology. In my academic career, I saw more than a few lazy researchers choose to root through a past researchers work like a wild hog in a jerusalum artichoke patch rather than go into the field and do their own work. But then, there are those folks who dare us to take a second look at sainted figures such as Margaret Meade for example and face the facts that she embellished a lot of her informants' testimony or simply made it up as she went along to fit the view she had already decided upon. The damage she did is imeasurably.

ANother field that both suffers and gains from this is Biblical Archeology. An entire field of naysaying things like the Exodus, the existence of King David or Solomon has sprung up from revisionism and it isn't based on actual field data but rather some new wave interpretation of existing data. They clash with the religiously motivated literalists who see the Bible as an exact reference source. What got lost in all this was the more sensible middle road that used real physical finds to show that some of these events likely indeed took place.

So - sure - ask those questions. Ask them of yourself since you're the one who is trying to decide if you should sing it. But before you make up your mind, do the work necessary. It's not easy to know what that work is at first because of the legends and popular history tha gets repeated about the songs creation. Therefore you have to go to if not primary sources such as the writings of Wilberforce or Newton themselves, at least find good secondary sources or crtically well-received contemporary reviews of their lives and lifes works.

The movie I mentioned is a good start only because it's entertaining and it will introduce you to important players in the story that you may not have heard of before. it will give you a basic understanding of the times and what these men faced by way of opposition from the aristocracy and the Prince Regent.

After viewing the film and the extras on the DVD, you can then check out the wikipedia entries and see the suggested readings. That ought to be a good running start.

Good luck and let us know what you think after you've seen the film. I'd love to hear that!

And.. don't be a stranger here. This has been a good lively discussion

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:19 PM

P-P-P-L-L-L-L-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-R-R-R-R-P-P-P-T-T-T-T-H!!!!!!!!!!!


(Just picture me putting my thumbs in my ears and sticking out my tongue now, and wiggling my fingeres, and I think you'll have it...)

(comment is directed at thread and its general premise)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,tda
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:58 PM

I'd suggest reading both the Quran and a good history of Arabia around Muhamad's time. The teachings of Islam were, and are, very compassionate.

Please show me an example where atheism made a man better. Were they good because they were atheists, or perhaps they were good people who just happened to be atheists.
Nobody is claimning that religion equals instantaneous goodness. If a person follows what he believes, it improves him. The abolitionists are a good case in point.

What I meant by refering to choclate, was that if we refuse to change even something small, that doesn't hurt us much in the grand scheme of things, it's a bit rich to go criticisng others, especially when they lived in a different time, with a different outlook.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 06:07 PM

"How about no Koran and we're all compassionate atheists working for a better world, and only drunk some of the time, (and never when we're driving)? Sounds way better to me--"

There is nothing about "atheism" that makes people compassionate--so how you'll manage that is beyond me--and, sad to say, some people get really nasty when they're drunk, so that's no help either. And the whole idea of "atheism" is really a bit dodgy--

"Atheism" relates to one thing only, and that is the existance of God-- so why define yourself in terms of something doesn't exist? It's an oxymoron.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:00 PM

"There is nothing about "atheism" that makes people compassionate--so how you'll manage that is beyond me--and, sad to say, some people get really nasty when they're drunk, so that's no help either." Ted.

Um . . . some people get really nasty when they get religion.

But Ted, I fear you are not well read in this area. As atheists, we believe that we have one life here, that suffering serves no grander purpose, and that injustice will never be rectified in the hereafter. Atheism therefore inclines us more towards compassion for sufferers than does a religion that believes 1) God is in control 2) suffering serves the cause of soul building 3) injustice will be rectified in the end, 4) God punished the dirty bastards and he would only have done so if they had deserved it, 5) blah blah blah, [enter favorite theodicy theory.]

For me, an atheist, every lost life is a permanent loss of staggering proportions. For the Christian or Moslems it's AT WORST a temporary setback, and it may even be a good thing if God willed it.

FURTHERMORE, Atheism encourages us to see our fellow creatures as the frail, suffering-prone creatures that they are, and to have sympathy for even the worst of them. No matter how badly I dislike some son of a bitch, I feel sympathy for him because I know that he will either die young, or he will grow old and experience the intense grief of watching loved ones die, not to mention the grief of arthritis, hearing loss, blindness, impotence, loss of mental acuity, increased vulnerability to disease, loss of bladder control, loss of mobility, prostate cancer, painful urination, halitosis, sometimes really BAD halitosis, etc etc etc etc etc.

(I'll bet good money that if George Bush were a compassionate atheist, rather than a compassionate Christian, he'd have thought harder about starting all them wars. I sure would have. And so would all my favorite atheists. Because, after all, for us death is final. For y'all it ain't.)

So, Ted, I must respectfully request that you think this one over. And, please note, I'm saying Atheism naturally INCLINES us towards compassion, not that it compels us towards it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:08 PM

Oh, and when I say "every life" I mean all sentient life, which includes non-human animals. Atheism allows them to be important too, unlike Christianity which tells believers that it's ok to conquer and slaughter the non-human animals.

Very sad.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 11:43 PM

Atheism is the absence of a belief in the supernatural, nothing more. Your personal philosophy inclines you in the direction you have described, someone else who happens to be an athiest may have a similar point of view or one diametrically opposed.

"Christianity . . . tells believers that it's ok to conquer and slaughter the non-human animals" (?)

Good grief, Steve.

So we would all be peaceful vegetarians (living on the Crass commune?) if wicked, old Christianity hadn't told us to go eat cheeseburgers.

Actually, the only philosophy - religious or otherwise - that specifically forbids eathing animals is (I believe) Buddhism . . . which is - Presto! - a religion.

Good Night.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 12:03 AM

I've read what people say, Steve, and I know what they think, or at least what they want me to think they think.   My comment is intended to point out an amusing irony--wasted, perhaps, some "atheists" seem to take themselves much too seriously--

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 12:46 AM

"Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you. -- Genesis 9:3" Plus all that "slaughter 'em for ceremony" stuff, and the passage about taking dominion over ever animal. I'd hate to be animal in the Bible.

Or in the Dalai Lama's palace. The scumbag eats meat, not sure how he justifies it, but he does.

But come on Michael. I am on record as saying that I don't think religion changes behavior much because people merely interpret its rules as rubber stamping their self-interested behaviors. So, no, I do not think that but for Christianity we'd all be vegetarian hippies living in a commune (though that would be nice, and better for the world.)

I like your point, if a nice person becomes a Christian they'll be a nice Christian, if a nice person becomes an atheist they'll be a nice atheist. I was a nice Christian and became a nice atheist. Christianity did not make me nicer, neither did atheism. I will say, however, atheism causes me to view my fellow sentient beings as having ONE SHOT at happiness, and therefore to feel compassion when I see them fail. Although I suppose I could also, fully consistent with atheism, just say "Hey, screw them, it won't matter in the long run, and besides, they'll be dead soon anyway."

Ted, I am sorry not to get your hint at humor. My computer screen (an old dinosaur that belongs in the 'puter museum) contains only black print and it did not pick up the twinkle in your eye, and when I held my ear to the screen I heard no snicker or knee slapping at your end. All I saw was "There is nothing about "atheism" that makes people compassionate--so how you'll manage that is beyond me--", which sounded to me like a serious comment, and one that I felt needed a serious response, especially given that as an atheist I take myself very seriously :-)

luv,
sb

:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 12:37 PM

Should we be singing folk music at all? ;-)

Please refer to the thread of that title for more revelations on this burning matter...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 12:57 PM

I had resolved, more than once, not to involve myself further in this silly controversy ~ but it refuses to die, going on and on, day after day, and once again I find myself sucked in.

I know many folks who are the nicest kinds of atheists, including my sister and her husband who are currently visiting.

I also know a little about other kinds of atheists, such as, for instance, Josef Stalin, murderer of millions and perhaps a meat-eater as well.

What I didn't know was that the Dalai Lama is a scumbag.

Yeah, I know, that was undoubtedly intended as humor...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 01:02 PM

Yup, it was. Although I do see his meat eating as gross hypocrisy. I would love to ask him about it some day. But no, he's not a scumbag, in my book.

Sorry you think this controversy is "silly." But I'm glad you're following it/them still. (There are actually quite a few controversies being discussed here.)

sb

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 07:50 PM

I knew it was funny. Wry, anyway;-) Was that better?

As to Dalai Lama eating meat, it turns out that Buddhism doesn't actually require vegetarianism. I had some veggie friends who went on a peace trek that was run by some buddhists, and the told the veggies that their dietary needs were slowing down the march, and that they were being selfish. Gotta hand it to the buddhists--

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 07:58 PM

"Sancho and Hefty"

Livin on the road my friend, was gonna keep you lean and mean
Now you wear size Xtra Large
Your hair's slicked back with vaseline
You weren't your momma's only boy, but her hungriest it seems
She began to cry when you broke the scales
And sank right through the floor!
Sancho was a football king, he rode a big white limousine
He wore his bling outside his vest
Which turned the other gangstas green
But Sancho met his match you know, on the pavement down in old 'Frisco
Nobody heard his dyin' words when he said, "I gots to go!"

And all the LAPDs say, they could've had him any day
They only let him slip away, out of blindness I suppose

Hefty he can't dance the blues all night long like he used to do
The pavement Sancho bit down south ended up in Hefty's mouth
The day they laid poor Sancho low, Hefty split for Kokomo
Where he got the kingsize waterbed, there ain't nobody knows

All the LAPDs say, they could've had him any day
They only let him slip away out of blindness I suppose

The boys tell how old Sancho fell, and Hefty's livin' in Penthouse "L"
Old Frisco's quiet, L.A.'s hot
And Sancho's turf's been sold and bought
Now Sancho needs your prayers it's true, but save a few for Hefty too
He only did what a man must do, and now he's growing old

All the LAPDs say, they could've had him any day
They only let him go so long, out of blindness I suppose

I even heard Mark Fuhrman say, "I coulda had him any day!"
They only let him get away, out of blindness I suppose

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 12:01 AM

Oops!? Wrong thread maybe there LH but I DO appreciate it nonetheless! Your earlier thoughts above were what I have come to expect from you: cogent, precise and right to the heart of the matter. Only Chongo might do better, were he so inclined.

And speaking of inclines, thank you SB for your high standard whereby you judge the Dali Lama and God Himself. Had we only known.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 12:19 AM

Chongo is seldom at a loss for words. ;-)

The poor little guy's been working so hard lately that he's got no time for Mudcat. 2 smuggling cases, 1 missing person, and a triple murder to solve. It's great to see Chongo busy for a change, and able to make enough moola to keep himself in whisky and bananas whilst tracking down the bad guys.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 01:02 AM

"thank you SB for your high standard whereby you judge the Dali Lama and God Himself."Slag.

Slag, I think you misread me. I'm not judging the Dalai Lama, at least not for anything other than eating meat. God, on the other, does have real moral problems.

:-)

Phew! Thank God he doesn't exist!

sb

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:56 AM

Sorry I misjudged you Steve! As for God, you'll have a chance to tell Him all about it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 01:07 PM

Portrait of God looking at the Universe He created and thinking, "My Self!! What have I done!??"

Hosanna?

Don Firth

P. S. KaBOOM!!!   [Sound of lightning striking.]
HAH! Missed me again!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:09 PM

"As for God, you'll have a chance to tell Him all about it. "

When Bertrand Russell was asked what he'll say to God on judgement day about why he failed to believe, he said "You didn't give us enough evidence, God."

Quite simple, as long as God allows the state of affairs to be such that reasonable minds can disagree about his existence, he has no reason to be upset with those who doubt.

Christians who think God will be punishing unbelief harbor a very peculiar notion of God's sense of justice, namely that he doesn't have one.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:43 PM

Well, I see the broad brush of sweeping generalisations has been applied liberally in this thread. Without getting into it too much, I would point out the following:


In the mid 1960s, the Dalai Lama was impressed by ethically vegetarian Indian monks and adopted a vegetarian diet for about a year and a half. Apparently he consumed primarily nuts and milk. Unfortunately, he contracted Hepatitis B and his liver was seriously damaged. For health reasons, he was advised by his personal physicians to consume meat. While he has eaten meat in moderation ever since, the Dalai Lama has repeatedly acknowledged that a vegetarian diet is a worthy expression of compassion and contributes to the cessation of the suffering of all living beings. However, he eats meat only on alternate days (six months a year). He is a semi-vegetarian, though he wishes to be a full one. By making an example of cutting his meat consumption in half, he is trying to gently influence his followers.

"While many of the great Tibetan teachers did and do eat animals, the Dalai Lama has broken new ground by publicly stating his case for vegetarianism. If we seriously consider the compassion inherent in His Holiness' advice and actions, Buddhist meat-eaters could similarly try to eat vegetarian at least every other day to start out with. Since Buddhists have taken vows not to kill, they should not support a livelihood that makes others kill. Even if one does not have great compassion for animals this would meritoriously save humans from performing heinous deeds. The power of each human being becoming vegetarian releases the most intense suffering of the animal realm—the agony of factory-farmed animals. This profound action can help slow the grinding wheels of samsara, bringing to a halt the cycles of suffering of the entire animal realm and influencing their eventual liberation. When animals are not just looked upon as creatures to fill our stomachs, they can be seen as they really are—beings who have the same Buddha nature as we all do.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:48 PM

If God is omnipresent, Steve, which seems to be a fairly common spiritual concept if you look into it the more esoteric spiritual literature, then absolutely everything is evidence! ;-)

People get into problems with their ideas about God primarily because they think of "him" as some sort of large separate human-like being who is "out there somewhere"...like a great big powerful guy that lives across the street or in the next subdivision or something. Like Saddam Hussein or George Bush or the Queen? They can then blame him for the stuff they don't like, strike bargains with him, and demand evidence of his existence.

Pathetic. ;-) No wonder they have trouble believing in "him".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 03:25 PM

Thanks for the excellent post about the Dalai Lama, Kat.

Most North Americans now eat a great deal more meat than their body requires, and it is a major cause of chronic health problems. Most people in this society would be better off to eat about a quarter of the meat they are presently consuming. They'd also be better off to eat a lot less salt and sugar, and a lot less white flour products.

As for vegetarianism, some people thrive on it...and some people don't. Everyone has to find the diet that suits them best. Some people need meat in their diet, while others don't. You can get all the protein the human body needs in any case by eating various forms of beans and lentils, for example.

Meat is not the only good source of protein.

One reason that North American vegetarians often end up not eating a very good diet is that they don't know what foods are needed to balance out their diet properly...so they end up eating, say, a lot of salad and dairy products and grains...but they don't eat the beans or the lentils or other things they need.

Be that as it may, the most common causes of illness due to diet in North America are the OVER-consumption of meat, processed foods, sugar, salt, starch, coffee, soft drinks, and junk food generally.

"Do you want to Supersize that?"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 03:34 PM

Quinoa. Great stuff.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 03:53 PM

Thanks for the Dalai Lama info. I did not know that. Hey, he's a great force for much of what I believe in, I've been to Tibet, love the whole scene, and do not want to pick on the guy too much.

HOWEVER, it does seem to me that being opposed to slaughtering animals for food, but parcitipating in eating them "for health reaons" is a bit like being opposed to stealing, but doing it for time to time "for financial reasons."

What I hear the D.L saying is "compassion for all animals, but I'm ok killing them when my liver needs it."

Or am I being unfair to H.H.?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:02 PM

Thanks for posting that, kat. Isn't it interesting how, when one knows the whole story, the bumper-sticker version tends to look a bit mean-spirited? An object lesson for all of us in this political year, no?

Bit of thread drift, but since this thread has wandered all over the map anyway. . . .

Of the many books I've read in my life (and having been an avid reader since the age of six, that's a fair number), one of the most enjoyable and thought-provoking pieces of fiction I've read is Mary Doria Russell's The Sparrow. It's hard to classify. Many people regard it as science-fiction because it deals with space travel and alien contact. And it has won several awards as best science fiction novel of the year (1997-98). But one usually finds it in the "General Literature" section of most book stores. It also deals, in a most interesting way, with religion.

Whether the reader believes in God or not is not really at issue here. But the belief in God of several characters in the book is. Interesting cast of characters. Some of the characters are non-believers. And during a long journey in the confines of a sub-light interstellar space ship, believers and non-believers get along reasonably well, although sparks fly occasionally. By the way, several of the characters are aliens (although, strictly speaking, they are inhabitants of the planet being visited, so it's the Earthlings who are the "aliens"). God is not a character in the book.

Mary Doria Russell was raised Catholic, then later converted to Judaism. Someplace along the line, she got very philosophical, and her first novel, The Sparrow, was one of the results of her ruminations. It may not answer anyone's questions, but it will certainly give a reader a few questions to think about. In fact, book clubs and adult forums associated with some of the more liberal Christian churches have discussed the book at length, and have found it very thought-provoking and challenging.

The expedition is to a newly discovered inhabited planet in the nearby Alpha Centauri system.

From the back cover:
      After the first exquisite songs were interpreted by radio telescope, U.N. diplomats debated long and hard whether and why human resources should be expended in an attempt to reach the world that would become known as Rakhat. In the Rome offices of the Society of Jesus, the questions were not whether or why, but how soon the mission could be attempted and whom to send.
      The Jesuit scientists went to Rakhat to learn, not to proselytize. They went so that they might come to know and love God's other children. They went for the reason Jesuits have always gone to the farthest frontiers of human exploration. They went for the greater glory of God.
      They meant no harm.

The expedition goes horribly wrong. And the Jesuits who sponsored the expedition hold an inquiry to learn what happened. But Father Emilio Sandoz, as far as they know, the only survivor, refuses to talk. Then, when he finally does blurt out what happened, they are horrified. The following day, they are walking in a garden, trying to recover from the revelation and make sense of it. The following conversation takes place:

      "There's an old Jewish story that says in the beginning God was everywhere and everything, a totality. But to make creation, God had to remove Himself from some part of the universe, so something besides Himself could exist. So He breathed in, and in the places where God withdrew, there Creation exists."
      "So God just leaves?" another priest asks angrily. "Abandons creation? You're on your own, apes. Good luck!"
      "No. He watches. He rejoices. He weeps. He observes the moral drama of human life and gives meaning to it by caring passionately about us, and remembering."
      The Father General quotes Matthew 10:29: "Not one sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing about it."
      "But the sparrow still falls," says the priest.

Whether one is of a religious bent or not, this is an outstanding novel. As is the sequel, Children of God. Both are available in paperback.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:10 PM

LH, good points. I know as a vegetarian, I still do not get enough protein, partly from bad habits from not knowing how to use soy and partly from not being able to use lots of higher protein products due to high sodium content including cheeses and even the soy-based "hot dogs." :-) Might also point out that about 2/3rds of the planet's surface is given over to grazing of animals used for meat. A very inefficient and not very healthy use of our resources. Here's more:



How Our Food Choices Can Help Save the Environment
From a speech delivered to EarthSave Baltimore
by Professor Steve Boyan

The Union of Concerned Scientists says that the two things that people can do which will most help the environment are (1) to drive a fuel efficient automobile (that means, not a SUV or a truck), along with a decision to live near to where you work. That recommendation is indeed important. Anything you can do either in what you drive or where you live is important. The 2nd thing the Union of Concerned Scientists proposed that people could do which also would have dramatically good consequences for the environment: to not eat beef.

I'm going to go one step farther than UCS: I suggest that you refuse to eat any animal or animal product produced on a factory farm. And I'm going to tell you why.

In 1990, when I first read, that 10 people could be fed with the grain that you would feed a cow that would be turned into food for one person, I was impressed. But I was not moved. The reason was: if 10 people would be fed because I gave up meat, I'd give it up. But, I thought, if I give up meat, it won't have that impact: it probably won't have any impact on anything at all, except me.

I was wrong. If I had known that for every pound of beef I did not eat, I would save anywhere from 2500 to 5000 gallons of water - you heard it, for every pound of beef, 2500 to 5000 gallons of water, I would have been moved. It's a good idea to save water; we are depleting our underground aquifers faster than we are replenishing them. The largest one, the Ogallala, which covers a vast part of the country from the mid-west to the mountain states, is being depleted by 13 trillion gallons a year. It is going to run out. Northwest Texas is already dry. They can't get any water from their wells.

One may read the rest of it HERE.

Steve, the way I read it, is HH is striving to be a supremely compassionate being, which we might all hope for, for ourselves. He is after all huan like hte rest of us. While he struggles with this, his compromise is that he not participate in the death of the animals which provide him with food. I am sure, at some point, he will be able to go completely vegetarian and will have attained that state of Compassion which is so desirable. I would note he has it down to six months out of the year.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Barbara
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:27 PM

In re the original topic, I always want to know how the song came to be, and it sometimes influences my singing of it. I do still sing Amazing Grace, though not as something I believe, but rather as a song that has a good tune that lots of people know. The difference is, I don't lead it/start it.
At that same sing I sang "How Can I Keep From Singing?", a song that is closer to what I feel/believe.
Here's another dilemma I've run into: I liked "Song For Vic" [Borneo] a lot better before I learned why it was written. I still like it, but not as much. Borneo

And what about "It's All Part of Being a Pirate"? The rewrite by Tom Lewis is much better known, and funnier IMHO, but the original author doesn't want people doing Tom's version, just his. What's right practice there? Being a Pirate

And here's another dilemma: Mary Garvey rewrote "Deep Blue Sea" to make an excellent song about child slavery, based on a news story that later turned out to be inaccurate. Should we sing it anyway? child slavery

What do I do? I sing the songs I love in the versions I love, regardless of the PCness of it all.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:43 PM

All this concern for our health is well and good. But let's not forget that one good reason (IMHO the best reason) to be a vegetarian if that it's good for the health of the animals.

I am bothered when vegy discussions focus solely on human interests. We share the planet with other sentient beings. T'would be good to keep them in mind.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:49 PM

Sounds like an interesting book, Don.

I think the place people always go wrong in their notions about "God" is that they imagine something (or someone) that's separate from themselves, therefore something by defintion that has limits...rather than something limitless which they are a part of, and which everything else is a part of.

They posit a separate God-being, and immediately they have lost the very essence of what God is, in my opinion. I think God is the entire fabric of existence...the planets, energies, creatures, and phenomena are the various tiny fibers that make up the visible, noticeable form OF that universal fabric which is ultimately: one thing. It's a singularity, manifesting in trillions of apparent aspects.

People assume a separation between themselves and (the) God (of their imaginination) which has in fact never occurred, and they run around trying to "fix what ain't broke", fretting about "original sin" and engaging in all sorts of compensatory emotional gyrations to make themselves feel okay about it. Atheists quite rightly object to the more silly extremes of those gyrations, but they've also missed the boat, in my opinion, because they too imagine that very small concept of "God", the separate God-being, which they quite properly find unbelievable...because it IS unbelievable! ;-)

I base this on a lifetime of non-denominational investigation into the various religions and philosophies that are out there. It has left me happily free of religion and full of faith at the same time.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 05:48 PM

"I think God is the entire fabric of existence..."

Little Hawk. I have no problem with God existing if you define it like that. But I really don't think that says anything, other than that you define God that way.

I could say "God is my banjo" and all I've done is make a statement about my arbitrary and idiosyncratic definition of the word "god." Not sure that does much.

Sure, if god is my banjo, then I recant my atheism.

If, on the other hand, god is some being with a consciousness separate from human consciousness, a being who thinks, feels, cares and does stuff that affects us, then I stand by my atheism.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 06:01 PM

Once again, Little Hawk, I think we find ourselves on the same page.

Weirdly enough, perhaps, Barbara and I belong to a local church (Central Lutheran Church in Seattle). Barbara was raised Lutheran. But she doesn't swallow ideas wholesale, she's a thinker. I, in turn, wobbled around from a vague belief in God early on to militant atheism (college sophomores tend to do that), and finally pondered my way into pretty much the concept that you enunciated just above.

And, lo! it turns out that Barbara believes pretty much as I do. When we got married and I started going to church with her, I was a bit amazed to find that the pastor (with whom I've had many enjoyable conversations and debates) and a fair number of our friends in the congregation believe the same! There are some who hold to the more rigid "orthodox" dogma, but I think their number is on the wane. There are a lot of young people in the church, not particularly involved in the typical selfish concerns such as "personal salvation," or converting the rest of the world, but focus on peace (the church we go to is the national headquarters of the Lutheran Peace Foundation), stewardship of the earth (environmentalism), and alleviating poverty and suffering in the world (free meal programs, finding low-cost housing, and other social programs—without insisting on making people pay for the meal by listening to a sermon). In short, do what Jesus told his followers that they should do. Most of them deplore the pronouncements of fundamentalist Christians and gnash their teeth at the idea some people have that "fundies'" represent all Christians, and generally regarding them as modern day Philistines: all rules, no soul.

One woman (a feisty lady in her eighties) said that, as far as she is concerned, God is not any kind of objective entity, God is a human concept of the Ideal. And should be spelled with two "O's."

Do I believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and that his physical body ascended into heaven? That's the usual myth applied to almost all important religious figures. As Joseph Campbell says, where many religions go wrong is when they mistake myth and metaphor for historical fact. Is Jesus is the Son of God? Or God incarnate? Well, that depends on how you look at it. Define God!

Am I a Christian? Some people would say yes. Others would say no. And what do I say?

Hell, I don't know! Does it matter?

As some wise person once said, "God is a verb."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 06:22 PM

if God is a banjo, then at least he has a sense of humor ...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 07:08 PM

Don. Little Hawk, et al. If God is whatever you want to define it/him/her as, then all discussion is vapid and useless. Like me asking if SWABAKTI is a good thing or a bad thing. If you define it as good, then it's good for you.

But the discussion accomplishes nothing, except to make people think they're talking about something when they're not.

Maybe that's why Wittgenstein said "what cannot be put into words should not be spoken off".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 07:10 PM

Banjos, on the other hand, Murray, are subject to a unified and agreed upon definiton so we can talk meaningfully about them.

Although I don't consider tenor banjos "real" banjos :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 07:22 PM

"Little Hawk. I have no problem with God existing if you define it like that. But I really don't think that says anything, other than that you define God that way."

Yes, Steve it does say something. It says that everything is sacred and of immeasurable value. Not some things....everything. It says that everything and everyone is worthy of respect and love. It says that everyone bears equal responsibility, and that we are all one...therefore what you do to or for another IS ultimately exactly what you end up doing do to or for yourself. It says that all beings are sacred, not just human beings, not just human beings of your group or nation. It says that everything and everyone plays a vital part.

Now consider all that in a philosophical light, and see where it could lead humanity...if believed and applied. The implications are simply tremendous. It is those tremendous moral implications that lie at the heart of real spirituality and which are the hope of the world. All religions have attempted in some way to grapple with those great implications...as have all moral philosophies...but they tend to get so caught up in the outer trimmings (dress, ceremony, which book to follow, which leader to follow, which rules to follow) that they lose sight of the central calling....which is to love ALL of life and all of creation in fullness, not to be mean and stingy and love just the little tiny parts of it that of which you have decided to say, "These ones are mine."

I do not regard God as "some being with a consciousness separate from human consciousness". I regard God as the summation of ALL consciousness, human and otherwise...and I regard the consciousness of any one human as a very small fragment of that totality, but still something sacred in its own right.

If I look at your banjo, I'm seeing a manifestation of God's creative consciousness put to work to make an instrument, created through a willing and capable human being who used free will to utilize and give life to some measure of that creative consciousness, and if I look at you, I'm looking in the face of one small aspect of the living God...as is true also if I look at any other human being...or anything that has life at all.

That's if I remember who I really am and who others are. If I forget, then I'm just looking at some guy named Steve, and I can discount you without a second thought.

What I choose to see, that's up to me. It's a question of my awareness at the time. Better if I see you as valuable, just as valuable as myself, than if I don't. Better if I see everyone as valuable in that same way.


Don Firth - Good to hear. ;-) I have also met many people in the conventional churches who have a similar understanding.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 07:38 PM

Steve, God is for everyone "whatever you want to define it/him/her as". That's how it works. The way you define "God" is what God is for you.

That's the point. If your definition of God is small, mean, and exclusive, then it results in behaviours that are small, mean, and exclusive, agreed?

That's my argument with the conventional separated view of God...it's small, mean, and usually very exclusive. It puts a few things in a little cultural bowl, and says, "These are the things of my God, the only true God, and they are sacred. but all the rest is profane. My God is the only God."

That's not true.

People like to believe stuff like that. It makes them feel really special. It makes them feel safe. It makes them look down on others who don't share their specific beliefs. Such an attitude is small, mean, and exclusive.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 07:51 PM

"God created man in His image."

Okay, whether or not that is true, we do know that man(kind) returned the favor. How a particular individual envisions God doesn't say much about God, but it speaks volumes about that particular individual.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 08:02 PM

I like this type of art.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 08:14 PM

"How a particular individual envisions God doesn't say much about God, but it speaks volumes about that particular individual."

Yeah, Don! That's right.

I don't see God in my image. ;-) Meaning, I don't see God as a skinny guy with no facial hair and bushy hair on his head. LOL!

For one thing, I don't see God as a "guy". If I was inclined to see God as a person at all (and I'm not), I think She'd look more like Joan of Arc, or Joan Baez at age 22 or some kind of pure and heroic female figure, come to think of it.... ;-)

I don't see God as any kind of visual or biological image of a person at all. I see God as something completely indefinable in those terms.

People who see God as a remote, harsh, strict judge meting out rewards and divine justice are, I believe, seeing a reflection of their own harsh, vengeful, indulgent (to their favorites) and judgemental (to the rest) natures...and I can't relate to that view of it at all.

That's the "separate" God concept again, and I don't buy it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 08:46 PM

Yes, we drag out our definitions of God (i.e. God created in Man's own image). The revelation of God from the Bible is quite different. For one (and especially in regards to Bertram Russell's flip comment) it isn't about evidence but faith. That which is not of faith is sin (hamartia in the koine Greek, "missing the mark") and the wages of sin is death. Spiritual and, sooner or later, physical.

And what you all say is quite acceptable for your discussion, how you perceive God. I have no problem with your ideas and the discussion is interesting. But If you are going to discuss Amazing Grace and Christianity then you have to accept at least the premise of the Christian God, namely Jesus Christ as portrayed in the New Testament. That is the source.

Paul's first letter to the Church at Thessaloniki, chapter 2 verse 13: "For this cause also we thank God without ceasing because when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you the believe."

"... in you that believe." Which is key. It can be taken as just the words of men and understood as such. Jesus was just a man, a really great guy, a wise teacher, an avatar, a guru, a good deed doer, etc.;   or God! Compare that with Matthew 16:13-17, Peter's confession. It's a matter of belief, not a fact to be proved by logic or a preponderance of the evidence.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 09:26 PM

Yeah, but I believe everyone is God. Someone like Jesus, well, I think he had reached the point where he was consciously God, and almost nobody does that, because they're too caught up in their little personality. But that's what an Avatar is, I think, someone who has come into the full consciousness of the indwelling presence of God. He (or she) then acts, in effect, as God, not merely in an unconscious or an unaware manner as many people often do when they demonstrate love or truth in a powerful way, but with full awareness of what he or she is doing ALL the time.

There's a long tradition of such Avatars in Asia, for instance, and most of the Asian teachers now recognize that Jesus was one such Avatar, as were others in his region of the world in even more ancient times.

But I'm merely saying what I think about it. Do I know? How could I know? I simply have an opinion...or what I'd call my "best guess". Can I assume anyone that else knows for sure? Why would I assume that? On what basis? And why would I assume that a specific religious text from any specific ancient culture is the final word on the matter? I think further inspired texts are probably being written right now by someone, but they might not be heard about generally for some time...or not at all.

If Jesus or someone like him was walking the Earth right NOW, and speaking the WHOLE TRUTH most people now wouldn't even know about it. He'd be ignored by most people. They wouldn't even be interested. They don't want the TRUTH, they want security, money, a lover, a husband, a new car, a new house, children, a career, etc... We might hear about it much later, long after he was gone. We might not.

Be that as it may, Slag, if your way works for you then that's fine with me. (as I think you know)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 09:37 PM

"it isn't about evidence but faith." WRONG! If you are making a propositional claim, (ie. Jesus was God), then you are epistemically obligated to base that on evidence. Otherwise you can spout off whatever you want, and when challenged simply retreat to the last bastion of the intellectual coward, "Faith", (which I refer to as the "F" word). Once someone invokes the F word, meaningful discussion ends. Faith does not JUSTIFY belief, it simply provides the willing believer with a way out of having to justify her choice of beliefs.

Little Hawk and Don, I love y'all's view of God, strongly prefer it to the Christian and Islamist views of God as human on steroids (really really strong steroids). And sure, if we say "god is everything," that might make us treat other creatures nicerly, as LH points out, but it really isn't saying anything about God, just about the way we define him.

I vote that we all be nicer even though we don't care whether god is everything or not.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 09:45 PM

Me too, Steve. ;-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 09:48 PM

If this thread is now just the typical God argument and is no longer about music, I believe it should go down to BS...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 09:50 PM

Some great writing there, LH. Have to say I agree with you on all of the important points. I think what Woody said bears repeating:

MY SECRET - Woody Guthrie

Love is the only God that I'll ever believe in.

The books of the holy bible never say but one time just exactly what God is, and in those three little words it pours out a hundred million college educations and says, God Is Love.

And that is the only real definite answer to ten thousand wild queries and questions that I my own self tossed at my bible. That is the only really sensible, easy, honest, warm, plain, quick and clear answer I found - when I was ready to throw so-called fearful cowardly thieving poisoning religion out my trash door, it was those three words that made not only religion, but also several other sorts of superstitious fears and hatreds in me meet one very quick death.

God is Love.
God is really love.

Love can be, and sure enough is, moving in all things, in all places, in all forms of life at the same snap of your finger.

Love is the powers of magnetic powers and repulsions that causes all shapes and forms of life to run to a hotspot and meet its mate.

Love makes this wonder then, in fifty thousand billions of uncounted trillions of life's forms, shapes, patterns, in every step and in every stage of life; in the lives of the living cells, in the lives of the living bugs; the lives of the biting insects; the lives of the living reptiles, the lives of the living animals; and in the very life bloods of all the living forms of birds; and in the same plain ways all through the moves and the actions, the very thoughts, of every human being that travels here in plain view of our eyes.

Love moves them all. And in all of them love does move.

And wherever I look to see a wiggle or a waggle or a shape of humanly form, there I know is a thing not to be in any way hated, not in any matter despized (sic) nor even feared, nor shadowed around with insane cold suspicions; but to test forever and for all my days and for all my nights too, my powers of love, (I mean by that) my own powers to love.

Love casts out hate.
Love gets rid of all fears.
Love washes all clean.
Love forgives all debts.
Love forgets all mistakes.

Love overcomes all errors and excuses and pardons and understands the key reasons why the mistake, the error, the stumble, the sprawl, the fall, was made.

Love heals all.
Love operates faster and surer than space or time, or both.

Love does not command you, order you, dictate to you, nor even try to base your acts and your actions; love much rather asks for you to tell its forces what to do and where to go and how to build up your planet(s) here by the blueprint plans of your warmest heart desire.


Love can't operate in your behalf as long as your own sickly fear will not permit love to operate in your behalf.

Love is universal.
Love governs the spin and the whirl of this earthly planet all around through your skies here;
Love moves and love balances every other planet star you see there above you by the uncounted blue jillions.
Love moves and balances fifty billion and more kinds of powers and rays and forces inside every little grain of sand. And love causes peace and harmony to whirl a new whole universe on the inside of every little atom.

Love catches up with space.
Love outruns time.
Love makes the big world little and the little world big.

Love makes all good seed fertile.
Love multiplies and love divides.

Love is in the triggery works of all mathematical numberings.

Love moves to drive the weather and all of the powers of your elements. I see above all how your minds and your storms and all of your clear sunny skies are not just big accidents.

Love allows no accident to happen.
Love lets no waster occur.
Love wastes no ounce of motion.

Love works all mysteries.
Love works all miracles; yet I call no working of love a miracle. (Nor a mystery).

Love labours only for the next good and welfare of the most people; for by doing the most good for the most people, love operates fastest.

Love balances, holds, and controls all the moves and acts of the sun; the sun must shine by the grace and permit and by the very permission of love itself.

Love fires and burns and boils around in every inch of the great fiery belly and great fiery face of the sun, but, love also does the same job for several other millions of great suns Greater in size and power than yonder's daily new morning sun.

Love is all force.
Love is all power.
Love is all energy.
Love is all strength.
Love is all health.
Love is all beauty.
Love is all good work well done.
Love is all fun.
Love is all pleasure, all joys known.
Love is all eternity.
Love is here now.
Love is the thinker of every good thought.
Love is all there be.
Love is all space. There be no space that is empty of love.
Love ties all things together.
Love makes all things one thing.
Love lends all. Love takes all.

Love flows over with more love lights than all of the great splashes of all our great sunshiney waterfalls.Love kisses above and down below your waterfalls.

Love makes all your good & bad laws and love takes up your own sickly laws and breaks them into sand grains just for the laffs and for the kicks.

Love is always glad to make you gladder.
Love feels sad when it makes you sadder.
Love works best when you give it a big job of work to do.
Love loves you most when you love love the most.
Love sees you best when you see love the best.
Love finds you when you find love.Love finds you where you find love.
Love meets you where you meet love.
Love gives to you what you give to love.
Love loves most of all to work for you.

Love loves most of all to build up or to tear down as you desire and as you command.


I say to you, take up your post and your command of love.
I say to you, take up your very own gift and talent.
I say to you, take up your power of command.
I say to you (and to all of you and yours), take up your word, take word of your command.
I say to you, this power to command the absolutely neutral powers of love, this command is your very own birthright; no piece nor coin, no pile of gold, no penny paid, no dollar mailed, no stamp licked; no priest asked, no minister called-unless you so desire it and so command things to be thusly and solely (for the well and goodful use of most of us).

Command love to work with you and for you.

Command love to operate in you and through you to heal, to help, to lift, to bless, to cleanse and to spread the good word and the good news that the day of human hate and fear and dark lostness is all over and all gone and a day of new bright command at your hand;
For your own sense of your own commandery will grow only as you pass the great command (word) onto all of your dear dearly beloveds in humanly shapes of misery, till your commands sets them freed into their own commandery


To love is to shape, to plan, to order and to command.
To know how to love fully you must learn how to command fully.

No human is full grown till the love tells him to command all. Fear before none. Quiver before nothing. Kneel at no spot. Beg no cure. Be a slave to none and master to none.
Command the skies.
Command the planets.
Command the starlights.
Command the very heavens.
Command love to move and to act for you and your sweet mate-and for all the other such love praise like you and your mate and your children.

Command your plan (in love) to come to pass.

The resolution in my union hall is a command passed on in love for the best welfare of the union members.

You have to learn to love even your most deadly bitter enemy if you'd really hit the most high peak trail of your own powers as a love commander. You must bring death to none and life to all or you'll just never quite tip the high top as a love commander.

Your love command must forever be just exactly the direct opposite of war's crazy baseless hatreds. Peace. Peace. And sweet sweet peace must be the song of thy tongue tip. Peace is love. Love is peace. Your love command must for all eternity and be your peace command.

One true love commander can turn the universes of hate into heavenroads and byways of love, love, love.
Sweet love.
Sweet love.
Sweet love.

Excerpt from Born To Win, by Woody Guthrie
Copyright (C) 1965 (renewed by Woody Guthrie Publications, Inc.)
Use without permission prohibited.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 09:58 PM

If Amazing Grace is OK to be sung at the inauguration of Liverpool as the 'City of Culture ' its good enough for any one !

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 11:14 PM

I love it Kat! When you've said Love, you've said it all! It was Jesus who said "God is love". God is not willing that any should perish. There are about six different words in the Greek that can be translated "love' and the three most common are "eros" the love between lovers, "phileo" to be a friend and "agape" which is a selfless love for others. And it is this last that is the supreme and sacrificial love that so moves us and motivates heroic acts.

Steve, I didn't invent "faith" and it's not a refuge for the intellectually challenged though some may use it as such. I'm saying that the human intellect is limited and can only take one so far. Human reason cannot save you spiritually. You have to deal with spiritual maters ummm, how can I say this? SPIRITUALLY! That may appear as a tautology but it's really not. It's presenting a different realm which has partial conversation with the empirical world. You can approach the object of faith with the words of men but it cannot be possessed via a verbal, purely intellectual understanding. And Christianity is not alone in this. Zen comes readily to mind and many other spiritual disciplines can attest to the ineffability of the spiritual moment. But you are right in that it does effectively end any discussion on a purely intellectual level at some point. Our courts don't even ask for absolute proof but proof beyond a reasonable doubt or in matters civil, a preponderance of the evidence.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 11:55 PM

"God is Love." Sorry, Kat, I just don't know what that means, and I suspect it means nothing. It just conveys a feeling, like mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......... or wow! or harumph! I do not believe that such a statement says anything about God, only about the mood of the person making the statement.

"Zen comes readily to mind and many other spiritual disciplines can attest to the ineffability of the spiritual moment." Slag, great points, thanks for being a deep thinker here, (I mean that seriously.) But I think there's a diff bet the faith of Xtnty and the "faith" you see in Zen. The latter does not make propositional claims of the sort that Xtnty does. There are no "wrong" facts in Zen, (s'far as I know, though I'm weak on Zen).

Christianity, by contrast, at least the evangelical and Catholic kind, makes plenty of factual claims, Jesus rose bodily, he was part One of Three, God exists and has XYZ qualities, God gets pissed if thou dost x or y or z, etc. These are FACTUAL claims, they are either true or not. I see no room for "faith" in deciding such matters, any more than I see a place for faith in believing the earth is a certain age, string theory is true, quarks exist, Alexander had a horse named Bucephulus, etc etc.   

Imagine someone saying "I have faith that Oswald killed Kennedy." How would that sit?

I say abolish faith. Believe what the evidence supports, and where the evidence stops, take a position of epistemic humility, accept that you don't know and don't use "faith" to justify the beliefs your heart desires.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 12:42 AM

Don't apologise to me. I was quoting Woody..I also happen to agree with him, though I am not religious by any means. I am spiritual. I think what he meant was LOVE IS, when it comes down to it, human beings are in a sorry state without love.

As I said before, it seems the very broad brush of generalisation is being used a lot in here, esp. in your postings, Steve. There are plenty of Christians who believe in a metaphysical translation of the Bible, believe Jesus was an avatar, one among several throughout the ages, etc., much as LH posted a while back. It just doesn't do to make sweeping statements, lumping all of one group together when the group is so broad.

There are myriad of these discussions in old threads at the Mudcat. If you do a little research you will find more than you probably imagine exists, here.:-)

Slag, glad you liked it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 01:33 AM

"It just doesn't do to make sweeping statements, lumping all of one group together when the group is so broad."

Kat, good point, and I do know that. It's just hard to keep typing ("Christians, at least those of the evangelical or Catholic variety") over and over. I hope that folks can tell that when I'm criticizing Christian dogmatism my target is not folks who think of Christ as an avatar.

So your point is well taken and I'm glad you made it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 04:41 AM

Good lord, Kat! What an excerpt.

That is the Holy Word of Life in a nutshell. That's the foundation of existence, and Woody Guthrie put it all down in simple words in what must have been, for him, a moment of pure inspiration. (And Woody wasn't always so nice to the people he knew...but he had the capacity to believe in the innate goodness and noble potential of humanity and to care deeply about people. That's very evident in his work.)

No wonder the young Bob Dylan said of him the he was "the greatest, the holiest" (some words to that effect...I don't recall exactly) The young Bob Dylan loved Woody Guthrie and everything he stood for so much that he'd have done anything for him. That's pretty much how I felt about the young Bob Dylan too. It goes around. When someone can speak a great truth and go straight to the heart of it and lay it bare, hearing that can change another person's life forever.

THANK YOU, Kat! I might never have seen Woody's words on this if you hadn't posted them here.