Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)

Subject: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 03:50 AM

I watched the second part last night (I'd videoed it) and in the first dancing scene they danced to a familiar tune and it's bugging me that I can't remember its title. Anyone know it?

Also, although it only showed a fiddle player, I could have sworn I was hearing a melodeon too (sounded like John Spiers's playing to me). The only music credit was for a bloke I don't think I've heard of.

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:25 AM

The tune is Sue Harris's Fireside Polka, quite some feat as she wrote it about 160 years after the book was published. Don't think there were all that many melodeons about at dances in the early 19th century either. The track sounded like a direct lift from the Spiers & Boden Tunes CD.

Sense & Sensibility 2 is still up on the iPlayer.

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:51 AM

Hope Sue gets a composer's royalty for it. She should - IF the powers that be realise that it's not a trad tune...   IF the little form has been filled in...   IF... if... if...

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: GUEST,clockwatcher
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 08:08 AM

They obviously go to great lengths to try and get the locations and costumes etc. looking right. So why can't they go the extra micrometer and get the music right too ?

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Anne Lister
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 11:39 AM

My husband would tell you that more often than not they DON'T go to enough trouble with the locations and costumes, either. Try sharing a sofa with him when there's a historical drama on and witness the comments, fury and general wriggling that goes on!

Anne

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 12:23 PM

What's Sue Harris up to these days? She was among the first folkies I ever took a shine to, seeing her with JK at the Grey Horse in Shiremoor back around 1975 when I as only thirteen or fourteen, buying a copy of the High Class Band album, which I still have, and love - did it ever make it on CD I wonder?

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 02:05 PM

Sue Harris

Her solo CD Pastorelo that Beautiful Jo put out a couple of years ago is sublime.

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Tootler
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 02:41 PM

My husband would tell you that more often than not they DON'T go to enough trouble with the locations and costumes, either

I'd go along with that. I don't know about the locations, costumes etc. but I have noticed that whenever trains are featured they get it wrong more often than not. I know it is difficult these days with only preserved steam railways available, but they often choose totally inappropriate preserved lines and get the locos etc. totally wrong.

In the past, Jane Austen adaptations have usually managed to get the music reasonably OK, usually by "mining" Playford for tunes.

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 03:08 PM

Other than the emergence of the polka as a social dance in Bohemia/Slovakia was possibly quite a few years later than the publication of Ms Austen's novel, the use of Fireside Polka, written as it was, fairly recently, in an authentically traditional style, is not the issue. Sue Harris's composition is jolly nice and she is obviously entitled to composer's royalties for the broadcast of her work in the production.

The production team had, clearly, got hold of Tunes, an excellent Spiers&Boden CD. This CD features many tunes (including Playford) which could have served equally well. A violin/melodeon duo performance of which is still, however, anachronistic, though I'm unconvinced that this actually matters. What John'n'Jon (and many others) do is interpret, compose and add to our culural heritage. Long may this continue.

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: GUEST,cardboard cutout
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 03:15 PM

I think I might have forgotten to watch the second episode (I had certainly intended to), but if you heard some melodeon playing that sounded like John Spiers, that will be because it was!

I've been told Spiers & Boden arranged and recorded the dance music, but then couldn't make the filming, so Tim Van Eyken and Matt Norman (from Wren Music) stood in.

Doubtless if I have got this wrong, someone will correct me.

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:12 PM

It was a bit blatantly out of period, wasn't it? My impression is that generally in this kind of production the BBC makes at least some effort to get the music more or less to fit. (They did with Pride and Prejudice, for example).

An enjoyable production anyway, though at times a touch more Georgette Heyer or even Barbara Cartland, rather than Jane Austen. But I'm looking forward to seeing the final episode.

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:16 PM

The music was so ludicrously wrong, it should have been done by the Mellstocks. No doubt we'll have the same problem with Lark Rise on Sunday, at least I've got the Cottesloe Production to fall back on!

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 05:35 PM

"I think I might have forgotten to watch the second episode You can see it via BBC i-player

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:00 AM

Aren't they, like for Cranford, repeating S&S on Sundays?

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Anne Lister
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:06 AM

It's shown on Sundays ... don't know if there are repeats.

Anne

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: GUEST,Jim Causley
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:26 AM

As Matt Norman's housemate i can officially confirm that yes it was Matt and Tim van Eyken playing the music!

I know this because he made me watch the playback onn BBC iPlayer and paused it in the split second where you can catch a wee glimpse of Matt with a long ginger wig on playing his fiddle!

No shots of Tim sadly as Tim rightly informed the BBC that melodeons would not have been invented at the period in time when Sense & Sensibility was set!!!

Yet despite the lack of melodeon shots they cunning kept the music in becuase of course Joe Public isn't intelligent to spot that in a million years!

This brings back memories of uilleann pipes in Braveheart...

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: GUEST,Jim Causley
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 04:31 AM

PS Matt adds that when they were doing the filming of that tiney sequence (which took a whole day to shoot) the choreographer was very strict about getting the dance moves exactly correct which begs the question, why not the bloody music then???!!!

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 05:48 AM

..because I'd rather hear Squeezy on melodeon:-)

Sense and Sensibility (episode 2) is repeated this Sunday at 16:10

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:25 PM

By the same token I suppose you could say that electric guitars were not invented at the time of Lark Rise, but I'm used to the Albion music for that show.

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:42 PM

Lark Rise was openly and intentionally using modern instrument and arrangements in a very upfront way, as a dramatic technique. This version of Sense and Sensibility seemed to be dropping the music in in a casual and rather lazy fashion.

There's an analogy with the difference between producing a play in modern dress, and producing it in period costume, but not getting the costume right.

It didn't really detract from the enjoyment of this production - but getting it right would have added something.

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: The Doctor
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 02:25 PM

One of the problems with anything like this is that it does distract and detract from the programme itself, even if only in a small way. This thread bears that out. In the last episode of Cranford Miss Pole and, I believe, Miss Forrester shot round a corner to avoid someone, and I missed what they then said because of the plastic drainpipe running down the middle of the wall behind them. Even if just one person believes as a result of this that there was plastic guttering, or melodeons for that matter, in the middle of the 19th century then I think that is regrettable. If you are going to do a period piece in a period setting then the historical adviser should make sure that there are at least no glaring anachronisms.

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 03:04 PM

But, to be authentic there should only be candle light so everything would be dim and smokey at the ball

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 06:05 PM

Candles give a good light if you have enough of them.

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Anne Lister
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:32 AM

The film "Barry Lyndon" was, I believe, filmed using only authentic lighting ... but all of those candles would probably represent a health and safety issue these days!

Anne

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Fidjit
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 05:42 AM

iPlayer. Thats only for people in UK.

I was watching something, a BBC thing, two days ago. (We're way behind you lot) I think it was caled "Kamber house", or something. About young things in Bath (Don't take that the wrong way) Dancing Playford. One of the dances was announced as "On a Summers Day"

Good it was too.
Chas

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Fidjit
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 07:05 AM

Subject: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: GUEST,Boatz
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 07:24 AM

Does anyone know what the music was that Marianne (Charity) played in Colonel Brandon's library towards the end of the 3rd Episode?

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 05:30 AM

can somebody tell me when part 3 is being shown again. I watched parts 1 and 2 on saturday.

thanks Naz

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 05:36 AM

It was repeated last Sunday but it's been wiped already from the iPlayer.

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 02:28 PM

According to the Radio Times (buried in the small print), the final repeat episode is to be aired next Saturday evening on BBC4 - but make sure to check their website for the time, and don't just be logical and assume it will start when last week's did. The Beeb can get a bit Creative with their scheduling, and I've missed out before because of this. (Why they couldn't break down and - shock, horror - show ALL THREE on the same night beats me. It's not like they're overloaded with material...)

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 02:29 PM

This is referring to a repeat of the repeat...

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 30 Jan 08 - 08:02 AM

Speaking of authenticity in movies--

Many years ago, while I was a college student, I watched the film "Lord Jim" along with a fellow student who had lived in India and in Thailand, and had traveled extensively in southeast Asia.

He kept pointing out errors in the film. An important plot element is about a shipload of Muslims en route from India to Arabia for the hajj. He pointed out "Those [extras] aren't Muslims; they're Sikhs." He could tell by the way they dressed. At another point, he said, "That's a Cambodian village." I can't remember what it was supposed to be, but it wasn't Cambodia.

I was impressed with him, and disillusioned with the movies. At that time I had never been outside the US.

I suppose movie-makers always rely on their audience NOT having any special expertise about the subjects they portray.

If you're a musician, and you notice errors in the music, you have to assume there are errors in every other area, too.

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Marje
Date: 30 Jan 08 - 11:50 AM

I'm glad we've cleared up the question on what instruments were heard and seen. I thought I heard a melodeon, but as I couldn't see one, and anyway I knew they weren't invented then, I wondered if I'd imagined it. Now I know the BBC want us to believe that in Jane Austen's day, melodeons were in use but were not yet visible. And now I come to think of it, I've seen that in other period dramas - a band of musicians who are plainly not responsible for the music that is being played, but miming to it with different instruments.

It's true enough, if you happen to know a bit about any specialist area, you'll notice inaccuracies and anachronisms. I'm interested in language as well as in music, and I often spot modern expressions that have been transplanted into the 18th century or whatever. It tends not to arise in Jane Austen because the dialogue is mostly taken from the novel. Perhaps she should have described the band and their tunes in a bit more detail, and then the BBC could have got it right.

Marje

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Jan 08 - 06:10 PM

It shouldn't be too difficult to get it right for Jane Austen's period. There were a not insignificant number of publications and manuscripts containing popular dance tunes. I often come across references to these in notes in tune books. The instrumentation should not be too difficult, either. Violin, woodwind - flute and oboe mostly, (clarinet less likely at that period) plus either cello or serpent for the bass. Reproductions of late 18th cent/early 19th century instruments are available from modern makers.

A group such as the Mellstock Band would almost certainly be able to supply suitable music on appropriate instruments.

What is really needed is a sufficient desire to get it right - at least within the limits of the budget - and I suspect that is what is lacking. Earlier adaptations of Jane Austen by the BBC were usually reasonably OK on the music with suitable instruments and tunes from the Dancing Master. That particular publication would have been long out of date by then, but many of the tunes would still have been in circulation.

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 30 Jan 08 - 06:22 PM

serpent for the bass? didn't he play with adam and eve for a bit?

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 08 - 07:28 PM

Just to put it in proportion - it was a pretty good production, and Hattie Morahan as Elinor was outstanding. Here is the BBC website about it with interviews and suchlike.

A pity they didn't take that little bit of extra trouble with the music, as they have in some previous productions, but don't let that put anyone off watching it. Or getting the DVD for that matter.

Andrew Davies reworking of the plot was pretty good. In fact I felt he improved the ending. Jane Austen has Elinor and Willoughby get together before her sister and the Colonel do. Davies reversed that, so reducing the slightly cynical quality of Jane's ending.

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 30 Jan 08 - 09:10 PM

Please tell me this is not the otherwise-quite-good production in which Elinor betrays the original text and its author by publicly bursting into tears before rushing out of the house on learning that Willoughby has left, or returned, or succumbed to or recovered from galloping consumption, or whatever it was ...

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Marje
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 04:48 AM

Of course, Tootler, you're quite right, the BBC could and should have got it right. My final comment (above) was a little tongue-in-cheek - I didn't really think it remiss of Jane Austen not to have described the band in detail.

As you say, it's just a matter of having the will to get it right - it wouldn't have to cost any more, all they need is to ask the right people or organisations (heck, just ask US!) and they could avoid the obvious bloopers.

The broadcasters haven't really got their potted music sample sorted out for this period, have they? When we get a programme about the Tudors, we tend to get Greensleeves on a recorder or something like that; when it's France (any region, any time), we get Parisian waltzes on an accordion; when it's Northern England, it's the New World slow movement by brass band; but for Jane Austen's country dances, they haven't yet got a ready-made soundtrack sorted. The Mellstock band ought to offer them a purpose-made CD with instructions as to how the tunes were danced to, and an offer of appearing in person to play the same instruments in the film if required. But maybe they've tried that.

Marje (henceforth available to the film industry as Traditional Music Consultant at very reasonable rates)

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 05:45 AM

Mistake there - I meant Elinor and Edward of course. Elinor and Willoughby would have been a bit too much of a reworking of the plot...

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's time travelling Apprentic
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 11:14 AM

serpent for the bass? didn't he play with adam and eve for a bit?


was their back up band East of Eden....

Charlotte (remembering a time that she wasn't even born in)

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: GUEST,Guest, Jacobson
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 06:47 PM

Does anyone know who composed (what I assume to be the original music)in the scene where Margaret is riding on the horse with Edward (toward the beginning)? It's played again later in the movie. I can't find the composer/artist anywhere.

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: meself
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 07:04 PM

And, of course, assuming that McGofH was infallible, I repeated the "Elinor and Willoughby" error. Elinor and Edward ...

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:09 PM

Guest Jacobson, the original music was composed by Martin Phipps, who also did the score for North & South. More here:

http://www.coolmusicltd.com/Composers/Martin-Phipps/Martin-Phipps.html

Subject: RE: Sense and Sensibility (BBC 2007)
From: GUEST,Guest Jacobson
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 06:40 PM

THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!