Why should we sing folk music at all?

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 02:50 PM

Well yes, the point at which I accepted the King's shilling and signed up to become folkie footsoldier was around 1964.

By 1965, every town had two or three folk clubs. People used to organise tours of just the folk clubs in one major city. The late Barrie Roberts told me about a guy who actually sold folk clubs as thriving businesses.

What had sparked all this was the American folkscene. The music charts had acts in it like Peter Paul and Mary, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon Bob Lind, Leonard Cohen, John Sebastian's The Loving Spoonful, Pete Seeger, Joan Baez - all big names on the American folk scene.

John Lennon said one week that his favourite album was Blues, Rags and Hollers by Koerner , Ray and Glover - and straight into the English top twenty went their album. The American bands like the Byrds were copyng English bands like the Searchers and tackling Dylan material, and that was the first time I heard the phrase folk rock.

More important than all that was the fact that everywhere you looked - people all around you were having a go. Folk music was a genuinely exciting artistic movement, embracing just about everybody and everything.

Cotrast this with the exclusivity of today. People being told as I have been on this thread(albeit in a kindly way) what you have done with your life isn't folk music.

Theres a book called Baby Let Me Follow You Down by the late Ric Von Schmidt - its just been reissued in paperback and you can get it on Amazon. Its about the generous spirited people who got that ball rolling. And its that folk revival I have kept faith with, long after its demise. It was to my my mind jealousy and self interest that set up all these boundaries, and thats when folk clubs got all sneery and unpleasant.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 01:53 PM

Little Hawk,

It's all good, harmless fun and allows us all to state why we do what we do...

Nigel,

Nigel, I can't really say a lot about your comment on Wendy's album except thanks!

Bring your banjo over to KFFC sometime...we can have a basic frailing session while discussing the merits of trad versus contemporary!

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 01:43 PM

Considering that this thread was launched as a joke, an exercise in ironic comment directed tongue in cheek at the "Should we be singing Amazing Grace?" thread...it's amazing what legs it has grown. ;-)

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 12:43 PM

Paul, I do agree with virtually every thing you just said (apart from I'd call the debate 'robust' rather than 'violent'...). And I'd suggest your good lady wife's CD is a great example of how to combine quality interpretation of traditional song with excellent contemporary songwriting.

I too own an evil b**jo, by the way. No talent for anything but the most criminally basic frailing, though... one day!

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 12:34 PM

Sorry the 'neither am I' at the start of that last post refers to Gene's post not the one from WLD that snuck in while my back was turned.

Touching on WLD's post, and a discussion for a different thread perhaps - but I wasn't around at the 'heyday' of the folk club scene, WLD, so I'm curious. Did what was happening then 'connect' with the wider population much more than - say - the current festival scene does? Or was it still a bit of a minority sport? I'm not trying to be smart here - it's just that you were obviously part of that scene and I was a wee bit too young.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 12:31 PM

It's also a way to pass on history?

Bit like nursery rhymes.

Sal

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 12:30 PM

Nigel,

My point is that life is to short to argue about the definition of folk (or take a pop at one group or another) and it seems completely irrelevant to my everyday experiences of attending, performing at & running "folk" clubs and events. There is almost universally "Trad" and "contemporary" music represented...and if it is well done (and sometimes not!)I usually enjoy it and if I don't enjoy it I can still appreciate the effort a person is making.

A good song is a good song......let's just get on with doing our thing...whatever that is and stop agreeing so violently..

I'm off to play my banjo a bit more (isn't that a bit American....or West African or whatever?).

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 12:29 PM

Neither am I... well, I am a bit, or I wouldn't be on here at 5.30pm on a cold January night... having said that, I'll second that emotion, Gene (the one about pissing contests).

However... this thread has given me an idea about how I can magically double the size of my folk CD collection without adding a thing to it that I don't already own. Now there's a thought and a cunning plan...

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 12:29 PM

Its not a pop - its just an observable phenomenon.

Its supposed to be our national folk music, and its not connecting with many of the people.

For god's sake don't stop doing whatever you're doing, theres few enough people at it already.

I think some of us are allowed to express our doubts about the present situation.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 12:14 PM

I mean, OK, everyone with an interest in folk music thinks they KNOW what it is (and isn't), and I'm no different. But the only purpose of debating The Meaning of Folk here would be to turn the thread into a big pissing contest between the (opposing?) sides with nobody actually changing their position or giving an inch...which might be fun, I suppose but I'm not quite THAT bored...

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 12:08 PM

Banjiman, I wouldn't want to police what anyone sings, plays, puts on in their club, enjoys in the privacy of their own home. I don't even really care what they chose to call what they do. If I buy an album or see a gig I don't enjoy because its mislabelled it's not the end of the world, just a bit annoying. I just struggle a bit with 'contemporary folk' types taking a pop at people who prefer traditional music as Gene appeared to be doing (but has since assured us he's not)... and for that matter I struggle with 'traditional folk' types taking a pop at people who prefer contemporary music. However, there does seem to be a lot more of the former than the latter on Mudcat. Thank god I have considerably better taste than anyone else, that's all I can say!

The answer to the original question, of course, is: if anything becomes about what we should or shouldn't do we're past the point of it really mattering anyway.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 11:57 AM

"If you don't know what it is, then you can hardly pontificate on why it is or is not popular..."

Oh, I know what it is. But why should I tell you? :)

(Nice try, Richard, but I'm not gonna take the bait)

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 11:44 AM

well this is the trouble, I'm not the one setting out the boundaries - saying what you do isn't folk music.

all I can say is, its meant to be.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 11:26 AM

"Why should we sing folk music at all?"

Where should the boundaries be drawn in order for us (presumably) to stay clear of it?

B.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 10:47 AM

I'm with you on this 100% Richard... It's a well beaten path, this one...

B.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 10:45 AM

Now then, Brendy, I AM KEEPING VERY CALM ABOUT THIS SO FAR!

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 10:44 AM

... where's that popcorn...?

B.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 10:37 AM

If you don't know what it is, then you can hardly pontificate on why it is or is not popular, or indeed why one should sing it. Not dissing your music, Gene, indeed I think you do credit some to "trad". I may or may not like it and you'd be welcome at any folk club I ran, but since the thread is "Why should we sing FOLK music at all?" the answer to that depends on identifying FOLK music.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 10:36 AM

I think what set me off on that train of thought was actually a little quote from Martin Carthy on greatest hits album cover:-

"To begin with I tried to make the music fit into what I already knew, but gradually it became apparent that it doesn't work like that and actually its a language all on its own. you've got to try and make it work on its own terms, and if you don't know what those terms are, you've got to try and find out. That's the adventure."

I really don't think an appreciable number of people are taking that adventure trail with him. And meanwhile what the rest of the population has to say is being neglected, and told moreover that their contribution isn't folkmusic.

I love quite a lot of traditional songs, and I even try to play some of the simpler and more well known ones. We can all join in a sea shanty, and the easier stuff. But even well known traditional songs are so different from modern songs that most people can't sing them well. I'v got recorded versions of The Plains of Waterloo and The Bonny Bunch of Roses - and you can see the songs have defeated professional singers who have applied themselves to learning this language that Martin was speaking about.

Yeh you're right Jim, i suppose my main influences are American - but I think you're a bit late to worry about the invasion....haven't you heard we re-invaded them in the 1960's. I'm reminded of the what Doc Watson said on hearing the Rubber Souls album for the first time. he said that is the way music is going - you can't get out the way of a hurricane.....

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 10:11 AM

.....I'm not at all sure that the young are alienated.......

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 09:05 AM

So let me get this right -

weelittledrummer -

The universality belongs to contemporary folk. that is what most people try and perform when they call themselves folksingers.

And it remains the most attractive aspect of folk for the vast majority.

Gene Burton

But folk could be so much more than just a genre of music (and vastly more popular) were it not for the nefarious influence of it's self-appointed custodians.

This attitude alienates many, especially the young, and is a principal factor in the decline in popularity and knowledge of folk music (including traditional songs.)

This isn't a problem, it's a business opportunity.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 07:00 AM

My posts were concerned with factors affecting the popularity and knowledge of folk music (however you define it), not with factors affecting singer songwriters and whether or not their careers "take off", whatever that means. I think, as a folk music fan, I have the right to express my opinion on that. For my own part, I just sing for the love of singing whatever it is I'm singing...and even if I was looking to forge professional career in music, I wouldn't be doing it through the folk club scene.

"Can we not just sing (and play) because we enjoy it...."

Yes. We can. And I think that just about takes care of the matter.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 06:25 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong Rabbi, but I believe there's an old, typically Jewish, saying:
"Keep one eye on the past and you're blind in one eye. Keep no eyes on the past and you're completely blind..."

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 06:21 AM

Well said Banjiman!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 06:08 AM

Hey guys a good song is a good song......in my experience the best folk clubs "allow" and encourage both traditional and contemporary songs & singers.......why seek to put in false divisions?

Can we not just sing (and play) because we enjoy it....we had a little singaround at ours last night (Front Room Folk as we call it in these parts) one of our "acts" followed "Cold Haily Rainy Night" with an amusing Mandola & Mandolin take on "Sweet Caroline" complete with folky harmonies(Trad. arr. Rossi & Parfitt....according to some).

In the context of a social singaround (can you get more "folky" than that?) both were hugely enjoyable and worthy.

I come back to a good song is a good song (and even some bad songs can be enjoyable in the right context).

Paul

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 05:46 AM

Gene, forgive me if I'm being naieve, but are you really suggesting that every time a singer-songwriter's career fails to take off it's somehow the fault of people who enjoy listening to traditional music?

That seems to be the logic of your argument. And there was me assuming your average singer songwriter hoped to make it or otherwise on the basis of his or her talent, luck, charm etc, etc. But no, they've got to fight their way through hordes of traditional music fans intent on screwing things up for them.

Now, I know plenty of people who perform their own material on largely acoustic instruments (most of them wouldn't be seen dead in a folk club, mind). Some of them are incredibly good at what they do. I've never once heard a single one of them complain about their careers being threatened by these powerful and malign creatures and their supposed nefarious influence!

Shouldn't decent singer songwriters just ditch the paranoia and hostility and get on with what they do best?

Cheers,

Nigel

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 05:36 AM

Look, there is nothing wrong with contemprary music simply because it is contemporary. Some of it of course is crap and some is excellent.

But the context of the question is "why should we sing FOLK music", not "why should we sing" so it necessitates a distinction between folk music and other music.

I am happy to see you here, Gene Burton, and I don't want to stop you performing contemporary music (nor do I want to stop you performing traditional music). But you are talking nonsense.

"Folk" music must have a meaning synergetic with "folk arts" and "folk lore". I happen to think that the 1954 definition is very close to right for that purpose, but whatever defintion you wish to apply, there has to be one for the purpose of the thread and it has to work consistently. If you think you can formulate one,please do so.

Your music, Al, excellent though it is (and I mean that most sincerely, folks), is based more closely on the practices and in some cases folk traditions of the USA than England. That is why your assumption that something is "folk" music just because it happens to be a war-chant on the association football terraces is inappropriate. If you want to be colonised (as in "colonies", not "colons" nor "Co-Lin Powell") feel free, but I don't.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 04:41 AM

"The universality belongs to contemporary folk."
Sorry WLD; no it doesn't. As a general tendency contemporary song is introspective self examination couched in a private language and using references quite often understood only by the singer (armpit music, as somebody once described it). Time and again I have come away from such a performance feeling like a voyeur who really shouldn't have been listening to something so personal, also with the impression that the singer resents, or at best is indifferent to my presence. I have often felt that, had it not been for the fee, they really wouldn't have bothered turning up in the first place.
Traditional song is the opposite; it has been something that anybody can relate to should they be given the opportunity; that's why it survived as long as it did without outside intervention.
That it no longer does so is a reflection of what has happened to us and our relationship to our culture rather than a comment on the song form.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 04:22 AM

I was just singing some folk music at home in my music room.


I sure hope no one finds out...!

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 02:26 AM

well I think just the opposite Shimrod.

I think most traditional folk is very poor stuff. Its a tradition that has bypassed most people in the land, and very often they reject it just because of the sound of it. Someone who can make those old songs live is a bit of a rarity. Without those admittedly talented few, most of the stuff would be in libraries.

The universality belongs to contemporary folk. that is what most people try and perform when they call themselves folksingers. This is the common tongue.

It grabbed peoples attention as the sound of their own thoughts put into music at the time of the cold war. And it remains the most attractive aspect of folk for the vast majority. People kicked about by authority, like the miners in the miners strike, responded at a visceral level with a song like Athenry and Irish rebel songs. People at odds with the enforced jollity of Yuletide responded to Fairytale of New york.

Most contemporary singers songwriters find no place in the review section of folk magazines or on folk radio programmes or on folk festival platforms. the music lives and breathes in England without subsidy by virtue of the folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 05:27 PM

You're too kind :)

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 05:26 PM

Well said, Gene.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 05:24 PM

"...the nefarious influence of it's self-appointed custodians."

By which I mean those who construct an artificial divide between traditional and contemporary folk songs, discount the possibility anybody could similtaneously perform their own songs AND traditional folk songs (most of the singers and musicians I admire most do/did both); and apparently believe that the traditional songs so beloved of them somehow appeared by magic out of the ether without ever having to be written or composed by anyone. Doh! This attitude alienates many, especially the young, and is a principal factor in the decline in popularity and knowledge of folk music (including traditional songs.)

(from Shimrod) "These "self-appointed custodians" are, of course, "The Folk Police"."

If the cap fits...

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:14 PM

I like to spice my folkcorn up with a decent sized helping of primal four-to-the-floor fuzzed-out garage rockcorn. Popcorn's for wusses.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 03:39 PM

I do believe there is a special area outside where you can eat POPcorn without offending anyone.....

:0)

Peter

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Ernest
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 12:15 PM

POPcorn is not allowed here: you have to take folk-corn instead

;0)

Ernest

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 11:59 AM

*sits back with popcorn and watches the show*

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 10:43 AM

Matt - I think the traditional singer is more of an 'interpreter' of song - a very different beast than a singer songwriter. Without wanting to go anywhere near the dreaded 'what is folk?' debate, and not wanting to create a heirarchy of value bewteen traditional and non-traditional music, I think some people are singers and not songwriters, and unfortunately the primacy of the singer songwriter as the pinnacle of everything worthy and creative in the post-Dylan era means that the role of the skilled interpreter has been somewhat downgraded and demeaned: the old "What? Who don't write your own material?" attitude, usually served up with a dollop of condescension and sniffiness (not that you were doing this, I hasten to add!). Personally, I love a well-interpreted song (conversely, I find traditional songs sung as if they were the phone book deeply depressing)... and to draw a parallel outside of the folk tradition, some of Scott Walker's greatest work was his interpretations of the songs of Jacques Brel.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Kara
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 10:01 AM

Because it make you feel good, and HERE is a great place to have a sing
all the best
Kara

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 09:56 AM

"I've seen gigs from singers who are quite clearly very talented and creative of exclusively traditional material and I've thought it's almost a bit of a shame that they're not actually writing their own songs."

And I've seen (why "seen" - surely "heard" is more appropriate?)gigs from talented singers doing their own material and thought, why aren't they doing traditional material? To me, "contemporary folk" (can such a beast exist?) does not have the pedigree and 'universality' of traditional material. There is obviously a place (or there should be) for contemporary songwriters - and some of them are quite brilliant - but I don't go to folk clubs to hear these people - I'm much more interested in traditional song.

And before anyone starts - I would not 'ban' anyone from performing in folk clubs - in fact, unless a club has a specific policy (a perfectly reasonable thing to have, in my opinion) I would defend anyone's right to sing anything they like. Nevertheless, the 'anything goes - it's all folk music' crowd should not expect automatic approval from me, or anyone else who believes, like me, that folk music is a distinct genre with reasonably well defined parameters.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: matt milton
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 09:09 AM

I think I have quite a different attitude to folk to a lot of musicians: I don't really relate to the custodial aspect of folk musicianship. For me folk's just one music among many others that I enjoy and play – the one I listen to the most, sure, but nevertheless just one among many.

So for me this is an interesting question and has nothing to with devil's advocacy or irony. I could never find it satisfying to just play traditional material. While I can sort of understand why other people do, I can't imagine ever really wanting to do this myself. I like writing songs; I love traditional material, but I don't perform any and doubt I ever will.

Obviously, most musicians do a bit of both. But every now and then I've seen gigs from singers who are quite clearly very talented and creative of exclusively traditional material and I've thought it's almost a bit of a shame that they're not actually writing their own songs. As if they're conserving a body of song at the expense of their own. One example: I love pretty much everything Anne Briggs recorded, but I think the songs she wrote herself are head and shoulders above the rest of her repertoire and wish she'd written more.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 06:23 AM

"But folk could be so much more than just a genre of music (and vastly more popular) were it not for the nefarious influence of it's self-appointed custodians."

These "self-appointed custodians" are, of course, "The Folk Police". People who have the temerity to have opinions on folk music and to express those opinions on forums like this (oh, the evil bastards!!).

These opinionated monsters, by preferring older, traditional forms, and not enthusiastically endorsing the latest fads and fancies, are often seen to be, by implication, 'criticising' other people's tastes in music. This is, of course, anathema to those who either have no opinions of their own or are insecure in their opinions.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Darowyn
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:20 AM

Clearly we should not sing folk music at all. Nobody should ever take pleasure in their long cultural heritage in case that causes offence to people who have no culture.
(and where is the "irony" smiley when you need it?)
Bert, thanks for "Dashing Away with a Smoothing Irony"- brilliant!
cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 03:40 AM

QUOTE: "But folk could be so much more than just a genre of music (and vastly more popular) were it not for the nefarious influence of it's self-appointed custodians."

Who are these people? What are the nefarious things the nefarious bastards are up to now? We should be told!

People will continue to sing folk music for as long as they feel the urge to apply the term to the music they play. Regardless of what folk music is...

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Janie
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 07:48 PM

We is folks so we sing folk songs. If we was turtles we would sing turtle songs.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 07:34 PM

Because, pound for pound, it is certainly melodically (and arguably lyrically) more resonant with the human ear and human condition than any other genre of music. But folk could be so much more than just a genre of music (and vastly more popular) were it not for the nefarious influence of it's self-appointed custodians.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 07:29 PM

Don, exactly! I am going to tell my brother he needs a guitar...forget the singers and the symphony orchestra for his new opera...turn it into a ballad! **bg** It could start a new trend...instead of composers using trad/folk songs in their compositions, they can forget the "long hair" stuff and write their own roots. Hahahaha!

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: Gurney
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 07:18 PM

I started singing it because it was so much more powerful than the beige, ice-cream music that was pop then.

I carried on singing it because I could get away with my level of musicianship, and I couldn't/can't play jazz well enough.

I still sing it because I'm human, singing songs about humans, written by humans, and I'm old enough to generally ignore the PC brigade. Or abuse them, if they ask for it.

As Bat Goddess says up there, those who ignore history are destined to repeat it. Additionally, however, there are, IMO, worse consequences than repeating history, such as being PC with non-PC enemies.

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: MaineDog
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 07:09 PM

Right on, Murray, you got me.
BTW, Murray was the first person I noticed on Mudcat whom I knew from the real world, and his presence here induced me to join.
We can't be too picky, or thin-skinned. I even sing pagan songs for the solstice, but I don't worship pagan gods.
Peace to all
MD=Jim+Dex

Subject: RE: Why should we sing folk music at all?
From: RTim
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 07:08 PM

Because we love it!

Tim Radford