MacPherson [how to pronounce?]

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 12 May 19 - 04:12 PM

There's no single Scottish accent so just cos one Scot pronounces it 'fair' doesn't mean another wouldn't say 'fer'. I'd agree 'fear' isn't the norm

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 19 - 12:05 PM

Trying to imagine how my Scottish son in law would pronounce it I suspect neither "fur" not "fair" but somewhere in between unreachable by either an English or American voice.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 12 May 19 - 11:52 AM

There is a sung comedy routine,
"MacPherson and MacFee,"
on the album Highland Voyage from the 19 ... '60's, was it?

The singers are John Grieve and Alex MacKenzie.
The two names in the title are pronounced frequently
as the song is sung.

And there is indeed NO fear in MacPherson,
it sounds more like
Mac FAIR son.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: leeneia
Date: 11 May 19 - 11:34 PM

Guest MacPherson, when I imagine a Scottish person talking, it seems to me that your pronunciation, Mac FAIR son, is the most natural.

I started this thread in 2008. Eleven years, and the debate continues.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Kenneth mcpherson
Date: 11 May 19 - 03:33 PM

From what I'm told fur wss ouldbe correct but every one will pronounce it different

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Vic Smith
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 12:05 PM

The important thing to remember is that "Ph" is sounded as an "F"
The "P" is silent as in sea-batheing.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 01:58 PM

Ah'm no feart!

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Guest MacPherson
Date: 27 Sep 17 - 01:35 PM

If you talk to a Highlander with an accent it is:
Mac Fair son. If you can fake a highlander accent with s slight roll on the 'r' it sounds natural. If you can't then Mac fur son is correct.

My athair(father) always told me There's no fear in MacPherson

Cheers

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:08 AM

The old conflict between Scots Gaelic and Doric. The "fear" variant is related to Gaelic for "man" whereas the "fur" is Doric for "I don't really speak Gaelic, I'm just a Kiwi blagging it. It's so bloody cold I don't dare open my jaw and I need to sound butch when I'm painted blue with me bits dangling in the air."

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:53 PM

Mo the Caller -- Monkey Puzzle Tree (I have one in my garden)

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Sharilyn McPherson
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 09:18 PM

My maiden name Is McPherson and I was taught that it was pronounced McFurson but most of my dad's family call it McFearson. But what really upset me was when I told people my name was McFurson they would say, oh you mean McFearson like I didn't know my own name. My grandfather called it McFurson but his brother called it McFearson. I never knew why.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 08:10 PM

The usual way I've seen the name in this poem spelt in early sources was "Phairson":

The Massacre of MacPherson

(It's in spoofed Highland English).

Don(Wyziwyg)T has it right. The similar MacFAIRson is still the commonest pronunciation in Scots, but it's often Anglicized to MacFURson. Edinburgh is nearer to where the MacPhersons came from than Glasgow is.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 05:47 PM

I live about five miles from the village of Trottiscliffe, in Kent, UK.

It is locally variously pronounced:

Trotscliff
Trotslee
or Trosley.

The most commonly used "Trosley" has now been adopted by the owners of "Trosley Country Park", so I guess that will be the official one henceforth.

Don T.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 04:42 PM

Guest says

"Tunesmith if 10 million people with questionable numeracy think 2 and 2 is five; it's still 4"

Your powers of logic and reasoning are probably the lowest I have ever encountered!

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 01:10 PM

Even in Scotland it isn't a hard and fast rule.

Visit Glasgow (often pronounced "Gleska"), and you will hear about "MacFURs'ns", while Edinburgh seems to be home to "MacFAIRsuns".

However, in some twenty holidays in Bonny Scotland, I have never met, or heard of, a "MacFEARson".

The Scots, apparently, are "AFEARED" of Naebody.

Don T.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 12:45 PM

""There was some footballer that played for Wales (I think), years ago. His surname was 'Death' - pronounced DEETH.""

I think the name was originally spelled De'Ath, and pronounced Dee ath.

Don T.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 12:08 PM

Tunesmith if 10 million people with questionable numeracy think 2 and 2 is five; it's still 4.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 10:24 AM

I know what to do. Scour Scotland for somebody named Pherson and ask him how it's pronounced. Then add the Mac.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler (Well-known pedant)
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 08:57 AM

Slaithwaite? Chop Gate?

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 08:04 AM

This thread prompts me to ask how you pronounce Araucaria.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:28 AM

Yes it does!
For example, the correct English speaking pronunciation of Paris is "Pa-ris", even though the French would call it "Pa-ree".
It's pretty simple, really.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Guest TF
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 06:46 AM

Precisely my point Tunesmith. Just because millions do something doesn't make it right.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 03:01 AM

Guest TF, well according to your theory, most Americans (over 200 million) would pronounce the name "Edinburgh" incorrectly!
But, as I've stated previously, there cannot be one universal pronunciation of a place name.
For, example, according to your theory, most Brits would be pronouncing New York and New Orleans incorrectly!
But, then again, according to the French, most Americans would be pronouncing the word "Orleans" incorrectly!

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Guest TF
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 07:04 PM

Just because thousands of Americans pronounce it MacFeerson doesn't make them right. I've never heard anyone sing the song and pronounce it that way.
People from furth of Scotland may choose to pronounce Machinery as Mac Hinnery but here in Scotland we still pronounce it Masheenery.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 06:52 PM

A friend of mine posts himself on Youtube as MacFiercesome!

And if you'll forgive a wee thread drift - a large number of Scots spell the word definitely wrongly, simply because they pronounce it DEFINAITELY (with emphasis on on the AI).
Hoo did that yin cam aboot?

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 03:32 PM

I don't suppose there is a correct "universal" way to pronouce any proper noun.
For example, are we - English speakers - pronouncing the capital of France incorrectly when we say "Pa - ris".
Afterall, the French should know how to say it properly, and they say " Pa -ree".

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 03:18 PM

MacPherson rhymes with person, but final syllable pronunciation seem to vary , generally somewhere between FUR and FAIR.

Btw, in Chicago, there's a main street pronounced go-EE-thee spelled Goethe. And a town in Massachusetts pronounced Byoona Vista. Not to mention PEE-roo. Illinois.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Megan L
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 03:14 PM

How do you spell MacPherson? SMITH he got fed up wie ejits askin him every twa seconds and changed it.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 02:39 PM

Whether it's spelled McEwan or McKeown, I would have no idea of how to pronounce it. So I agree that there's no improvement in the alteration.

Many years ago, I worked as an attendant at a public pool. One summer we were ready to close and catch the bus home, except that there was a forgotten five-year-old to deal with. Given the neighborhood, she probably had a long, hard=to-pronounce name of Polish derivation. She couldn't tell us anything of herself or her family except that she was "Denise."

That was when I decided that family names should be recognizable, pronouncable even by the littlest members, and spellable by the general public.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 10:55 AM

The distinguished British actress Dame Geraldine McEwan at the beginning of her career in the late 1940s spelt it McKeown. The regular theatre critic of Punch magazine at the time was called Eric Keown*; I remember his waxing quite facetiously lyrical at the time about how he could see no improvement in the alteration. I happened to meet Dame Geraldine some years ago after a performance of hers I was reviewing and reminded her of this, which she recalled had caused her some amusement at the time.

~M~

*I never met him to establish whether he pronounced it, without the patronymic prefix, as Kee-own or Kew-an. Anyone here happen to have known him, or otherwise know the answer ~~ or even have that name themselves, to settle the matter?
Looking Dame G up in wiki, btw, I find she is exactly three days older than me!

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Kentucky
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 09:45 AM

My birth name was McPherson and I was raised to pronounce it with the fur sound.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 07:30 PM

Thanks leeneia; my pleasure.

Although nobody on Mudcat has seen the primary distinguishing marks of my sex, several (including JennieG and Sandra) have observed most of the secondary ones. The beard is a bit of a giveaway, as is the baritone.

And to add a bit of info about pronunciation of Scottish names, I grew up pronouncing my name with the 1st syllable as in "row your boat" (as well as wondering why I had been given such a Scottish name; nobody in my family had any knowledge of Scottish connections) and it wasn't until I met Alistair Anderson that I found out the Scots pronounced the 1st syllable as in "one unholy row".

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 05:55 PM

'I do have a colleague at work, who migrated here from somewhere in the Scottish highlands and who extends that syllable slightly, to the extent that I hear it as "fair", and this is how I've always heard it pronounced by anyone in Oz who sings MacPherson's Lament.'

=====
Everybody gather round! Rowan has actually responded to the original question. Furthermore, the original question had two parts, and she responded to both of them.

Thanks, Rowan!

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 08:26 AM

My great-aunt also worked there, she was employed as a seamstress by the Australian Agricultural Company & later had a dressmaking business in Peel St, Tamworth. None of this was mentioned when she married in 1919 when she was described in the local paper as a spinster who had done voluntary work in the recent war.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: JennieG
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 07:39 PM

Both my great-grandfather and grandfather worked on Goonoo Goonoo station, in fact my grandfather was born near there. I've always known how to pronounce it, but it certainly trips up the unwary.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Rowan
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 07:37 PM

And to get to the original question, most in Oz (with no personal experience of Scotland) that I've heard say the name, pronounce M(a)cPherson as Mcfurson with a short "fur", even though the stress is on that syllable. I do have a colleague at work, who migrated here from somewhere in the Scottish highlands and who extends that syllable slightly, to the extent that I hear it as "fair", and this is how I've always heard it pronounced by anyone in Oz who sings MacPherson's Lament.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Rowan
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 07:18 PM

There are two towns in Oz named Wauchope. The one in the New England is pronounced WARhope and the one in the Top End is pronounced WALKup; I haven't a clue how the distinctions arose.

The Goonoo Goonoo (pronounced GUNNa GUNNoo, as Sandra indicated) is just south of the New England and was the location of the earliest of the cattle camps when cattle were brought into the area in the 1830s. Cattle produce a lot of dung, in quantities much bigger than the Aborigines of the area had ever seen and there weren't any dung beetles to get rid of it. The local Aboriginal language word for "shit" was "goonoo"' with a short "oo" (as most of us might pronounce "book") in the first syllable and, because there was A LOT of it, the word was doubled. But the earliest written versions had a "u" for reasons I can't locate, although there were lots of Scots involved. This led to the current pronunciation, possibly influenced by strained relations between the local Scottish settlers and their English bureaucrats.

There are lots of Scottish place names on the northern tablelands of NSW and the story is that the more Scottish locals became more and more pissed off with the Sydney administration in the 1830s and 1840s, leading to persistent lobbying of the Colonial Office to establish a separate colony with a separate administration; their preferred name for this new colony was "New Caledonia". After a while, the Colonial Office dealt with them by establishing a new colony, but the border was 100 miles or so further north and the new colony was gazetted as "Queensland". Further, all maps of the northern tablelands of NSW would in future have, in the largest font on the map, the name "New England" printed across them.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:49 PM

It's Thaydon Boys

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 06:00 PM

Have we had Milngavie yet? (Mulguy!!!)

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 11:47 AM

Well, it's fun, isn't it, Poppa?:-)

Theydon Bois Thee-den-bwah? Thed-boyz? Taydn-boy?

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 11:45 AM

Thanks Snuffy, kat & everyone. No definitive answers (not that I expacted any) but plenty of interesting stuff to muse over.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:09 AM

McCanno?

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Snuffy
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:04 AM

Poppagator,

At a monthly folk session I attend in the heart of the English countryside, our Mr Doran pronounces his surname DOOR-en, while Mr Moran prounces his Ma-RAN (like meringue without the G sound at the end)

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 06:40 PM

MORE -On.is how it is pronounced in this area.
KEVIN MORAN irish footballer was definitely not pronounced morann.
but here are two other variations
Moran (Irish: Ó Móráin) is a modern Irish surname and derived from member ship of a medieval dynastic sept. The name means a descendent of Mórán, translated as Great One. Morans were a respected sept of the Uí Fiachrach dynasty in the western counties of Mayo and Sligo. In Ireland, where the name descended from the Gaelic, it is generally pronounced (phonetically) "more-in",
by way of variation,
Virtual Dinnerparty: Dylan Moran « Snoogiewoogie's WeblogMoran is pronounced 'MOARN, usually mistaken and pronounced 'more-an', of course the unusual pronounciation has something to do with the fact that the man ...
now failte,your own name is pronounced round here:foycha.undoubtedly its different in standard gaelic,but thats the west cork variation
and the name whooley is welly,and also wooley.
never mind the fish fingers,just get your facts right.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 05:36 PM

PoppaGator - my colleague pronounced his surname with the accent on the second syllable - DorAN, but I don't know if that's the Irish or Australian way.

sandra

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 03:34 PM

Poppa, maybe some long lost relatives amongst This Lot could tell you.:-)

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 03:22 PM

In the US, the second syllable of the name Moran is usually accented: more-ANN (or muh-RAN). I've occasionally heard it with more of an accent on the first syllable (MO-ran), and wonder if that might be closer to Irish usage, or if it's simply a mispronunciation.

My father's mother's maiden name was something much less common but very similar: Doran. She passed way many years before I was born, and none of her family seem to have immigrated with her and her husband's family, so I don't know anyone in the States with her name. Therefore, I'm not sure which syllable she and her folks might have accented.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Failte
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:40 PM

Captain Birdseye has been eating too many fish fingers!

In Ireland 'Moran' is definitely not pronounced 'moron', but 'more-an'.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 03:55 PM

From: Brendy - PM
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 10:01 PM

Moran: 'More-in' not 'More-ann'.
in ireland it is pronounced moron.and what about Theydon Bois

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 03:47 PM

aye and wymondham in Norfolk,is windham.
however Billy Anthonys Bottom,IS Billy Anthonys Bottom,andIam sure it is one of the finest bottoms in Somerset.