MacPherson [how to pronounce?]

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 02:05 PM

How 'bout Beauchamp, variously pronounced "BEECH-um" or "BO-sham," etc.?

There's an old Creole family in New Orleans named Bagneris. Vernel, a musical-theatre personality whose play "One More Time" made it to Broadway some years ago, pronounces it "BON-a-REE," which is probably pretty close to the original French pronunciation, I suppose. His relatives who are involved in local politics use a more Anglicized "bag-NAIR-is."

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 08:20 AM

Cornish village of Mousehole pronounced Mowzel. And of more relevance to folkies, as some editors have failed to spot, the Hazebro round whose light Sam Larner was a-fishing is actually the Norfolk village of Happisburg.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Bee
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 08:57 AM

CBC National announcers have been taught to pronounce French place names as the French (or at least, the Quebecois) would pronounce them. It is a source of amusement to us, here in the Maritimes, when we hear them gamely trying to pronounce names like 'Musquodoboit' and 'Quispamsis' as if they were French. Musquodoboit, and I think Quispamsis as well, are Mi'qMa'q names, and Musquodoboit is pronounced locally as 'Musk-a-dob-et' - certainly not 'Muska-da-bwah'.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 08:49 AM

Looked at your list, m'Gra, for one of the places I used to live - Shrewsbury. There was a survey done in the local paper, the Shropshire Star, while I was there, on how to pronounce it. Turns out most locals don't even pronounce the first r, so it comes out as:
SHOOSBRIE (not SHOWSBRIE).
BTW there's a place up here called HarLAW (emphasis on 2nd syllable, as also in DunBAR, DunLOP, etc)And I once heard a newsreader refer to Ban-CHORy (as it's spelt) but it's BANc'ree.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 10:04 AM

That's interesting about dropping the first r in Shrewsbury. I think there can be too many consonants in a word and people start dropping them, no matter what the spelling calls for.

Another case would be Blytheville (Arkansas) which rhymes with Bible.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Tyke
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 07:08 AM

interesting

Subject: Lyr Add: DON'T CALL WAGGA WAGGA WAGGA (G. Ghampion
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 01:19 AM

this is the perfect place to bring in my favourite Australian placename.

Goonoo Goonoo in the New England area, Rowan's part of Oz - in Australian Aboriginal languages plurals were created by repeating the word - and this one is now pronounced Gunny Goonoo! It probably wasn't originally, but words change over the years/centuries, especially when used by speakers of another language.

more on Doubled up place names including the words to Greg Ghampion's song "Don't call Wagga Wagga Wagga"

sandra

and keeping this a musical thread, here's Greg's song -

Don't Call Wagga Wagga Wagga

© Greg Champion/Jim Haynes
(Warner/Chappel Music Australia)

This version first released on the album 'Stand Back Australia'.


Now once I met Ted Egan legend bushman that he is
a lotta folks they know their Outback well, and Ted he sure knows his
he knows those towns with funny names, the ones that make you laugh
and when it comes to the double names, he says "ya don't do things by
half", and

Chorus 1
Ya don't call Kurri Kurri Kurri
and ya don't call Gin Gin Gin
ya don't call Mooney Mooney Mooney
and ya don't call Kin Kin Kin
ya never call Pindi Pindi Pindi
and ya don't call Grong Grong Grong
and ya don't call Wagga Wagga Wagga no sir
callin' Wagga Wagga Wagga is wrong

It's Lang Lang and it's Ki Ki Wangi Wangi and Woy Woy
and if ya call Tumbi Umbi Tumbi, well that proves you're a silly boy
Cocklebiddy isn't Cockle, Duckinwilla isn't Duck
Burpengary isn't Burpen, Muckadilla isn't Muck
Uranquinty isn't Uran, and Petrie isn't Pee
you'd look pretty silly callin' Liili Pilli Lilli and Wee Waa isn't Wee, and

Chorus 2
Ya don't call Walla Walla Walla
and ya don't call Curl Curl Curl
ya don't call Mitta Mitta Mitta
and ya don't call Wool Wool Wool
ya never call Pura Pura Pura
and ya don't call Bong Bong Bong
and ya don't call Wagga Wagga Wagga no sir
callin' Wagga Wagga Wagga is wrong

It's Terrigal not Terry, and Stanthorpe isn't Stan
Peterborough isn't Peter, Dandaragan isn't Dan
Kenebri's not Kenny, Jackadgery isn't Jack
never ever call Jimboomba Jim and Macksville isn't Mack
so now you'll all remember Ted Egan's good advice
some words are so fair dinkum that you have to use 'em twice, and...

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 02:26 AM

poppagator, there's a village called Kibworth Beauchamp also in Leicestershire and also pronounced Beecham.

Subject: RE:  [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 09:18 AM

To quote a good friend of mine. "There is no Fear in MacPherson."

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 09:32 AM

Then there's Kirkcudbright pronounced Kirkoobry, Avoch pronounced Och, and Anstruther pronounced Ainster.
G ¦¬]

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Snuffy
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 01:08 PM

A good example of dropping excess consonants is the Warwickshire town of Coleshill - pronounced Kozle

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 03:47 PM

aye and wymondham in Norfolk,is windham.
however Billy Anthonys Bottom,IS Billy Anthonys Bottom,andIam sure it is one of the finest bottoms in Somerset.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 03:55 PM

From: Brendy - PM
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 10:01 PM

Moran: 'More-in' not 'More-ann'.
in ireland it is pronounced moron.and what about Theydon Bois

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Failte
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:40 PM

Captain Birdseye has been eating too many fish fingers!

In Ireland 'Moran' is definitely not pronounced 'moron', but 'more-an'.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 03:22 PM

In the US, the second syllable of the name Moran is usually accented: more-ANN (or muh-RAN). I've occasionally heard it with more of an accent on the first syllable (MO-ran), and wonder if that might be closer to Irish usage, or if it's simply a mispronunciation.

My father's mother's maiden name was something much less common but very similar: Doran. She passed way many years before I was born, and none of her family seem to have immigrated with her and her husband's family, so I don't know anyone in the States with her name. Therefore, I'm not sure which syllable she and her folks might have accented.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 03:34 PM

Poppa, maybe some long lost relatives amongst This Lot could tell you.:-)

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 05:36 PM

PoppaGator - my colleague pronounced his surname with the accent on the second syllable - DorAN, but I don't know if that's the Irish or Australian way.

sandra

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 06:40 PM

MORE -On.is how it is pronounced in this area.
KEVIN MORAN irish footballer was definitely not pronounced morann.
but here are two other variations
Moran (Irish: Ó Móráin) is a modern Irish surname and derived from member ship of a medieval dynastic sept. The name means a descendent of Mórán, translated as Great One. Morans were a respected sept of the Uí Fiachrach dynasty in the western counties of Mayo and Sligo. In Ireland, where the name descended from the Gaelic, it is generally pronounced (phonetically) "more-in",
by way of variation,
Virtual Dinnerparty: Dylan Moran « Snoogiewoogie's WeblogMoran is pronounced 'MOARN, usually mistaken and pronounced 'more-an', of course the unusual pronounciation has something to do with the fact that the man ...
now failte,your own name is pronounced round here:foycha.undoubtedly its different in standard gaelic,but thats the west cork variation
and the name whooley is welly,and also wooley.
never mind the fish fingers,just get your facts right.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Snuffy
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:04 AM

Poppagator,

At a monthly folk session I attend in the heart of the English countryside, our Mr Doran pronounces his surname DOOR-en, while Mr Moran prounces his Ma-RAN (like meringue without the G sound at the end)

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:09 AM

McCanno?

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 11:45 AM

Thanks Snuffy, kat & everyone. No definitive answers (not that I expacted any) but plenty of interesting stuff to muse over.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 11:47 AM

Well, it's fun, isn't it, Poppa?:-)

Theydon Bois Thee-den-bwah? Thed-boyz? Taydn-boy?

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 06:00 PM

Have we had Milngavie yet? (Mulguy!!!)

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:49 PM

It's Thaydon Boys

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Rowan
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 07:18 PM

There are two towns in Oz named Wauchope. The one in the New England is pronounced WARhope and the one in the Top End is pronounced WALKup; I haven't a clue how the distinctions arose.

The Goonoo Goonoo (pronounced GUNNa GUNNoo, as Sandra indicated) is just south of the New England and was the location of the earliest of the cattle camps when cattle were brought into the area in the 1830s. Cattle produce a lot of dung, in quantities much bigger than the Aborigines of the area had ever seen and there weren't any dung beetles to get rid of it. The local Aboriginal language word for "shit" was "goonoo"' with a short "oo" (as most of us might pronounce "book") in the first syllable and, because there was A LOT of it, the word was doubled. But the earliest written versions had a "u" for reasons I can't locate, although there were lots of Scots involved. This led to the current pronunciation, possibly influenced by strained relations between the local Scottish settlers and their English bureaucrats.

There are lots of Scottish place names on the northern tablelands of NSW and the story is that the more Scottish locals became more and more pissed off with the Sydney administration in the 1830s and 1840s, leading to persistent lobbying of the Colonial Office to establish a separate colony with a separate administration; their preferred name for this new colony was "New Caledonia". After a while, the Colonial Office dealt with them by establishing a new colony, but the border was 100 miles or so further north and the new colony was gazetted as "Queensland". Further, all maps of the northern tablelands of NSW would in future have, in the largest font on the map, the name "New England" printed across them.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Rowan
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 07:37 PM

And to get to the original question, most in Oz (with no personal experience of Scotland) that I've heard say the name, pronounce M(a)cPherson as Mcfurson with a short "fur", even though the stress is on that syllable. I do have a colleague at work, who migrated here from somewhere in the Scottish highlands and who extends that syllable slightly, to the extent that I hear it as "fair", and this is how I've always heard it pronounced by anyone in Oz who sings MacPherson's Lament.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: JennieG
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 07:39 PM

Both my great-grandfather and grandfather worked on Goonoo Goonoo station, in fact my grandfather was born near there. I've always known how to pronounce it, but it certainly trips up the unwary.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 08:26 AM

My great-aunt also worked there, she was employed as a seamstress by the Australian Agricultural Company & later had a dressmaking business in Peel St, Tamworth. None of this was mentioned when she married in 1919 when she was described in the local paper as a spinster who had done voluntary work in the recent war.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 05:55 PM

'I do have a colleague at work, who migrated here from somewhere in the Scottish highlands and who extends that syllable slightly, to the extent that I hear it as "fair", and this is how I've always heard it pronounced by anyone in Oz who sings MacPherson's Lament.'

=====
Everybody gather round! Rowan has actually responded to the original question. Furthermore, the original question had two parts, and she responded to both of them.

Thanks, Rowan!

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 07:30 PM

Thanks leeneia; my pleasure.

Although nobody on Mudcat has seen the primary distinguishing marks of my sex, several (including JennieG and Sandra) have observed most of the secondary ones. The beard is a bit of a giveaway, as is the baritone.

And to add a bit of info about pronunciation of Scottish names, I grew up pronouncing my name with the 1st syllable as in "row your boat" (as well as wondering why I had been given such a Scottish name; nobody in my family had any knowledge of Scottish connections) and it wasn't until I met Alistair Anderson that I found out the Scots pronounced the 1st syllable as in "one unholy row".

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Kentucky
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 09:45 AM

My birth name was McPherson and I was raised to pronounce it with the fur sound.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 10:55 AM

The distinguished British actress Dame Geraldine McEwan at the beginning of her career in the late 1940s spelt it McKeown. The regular theatre critic of Punch magazine at the time was called Eric Keown*; I remember his waxing quite facetiously lyrical at the time about how he could see no improvement in the alteration. I happened to meet Dame Geraldine some years ago after a performance of hers I was reviewing and reminded her of this, which she recalled had caused her some amusement at the time.

~M~

*I never met him to establish whether he pronounced it, without the patronymic prefix, as Kee-own or Kew-an. Anyone here happen to have known him, or otherwise know the answer ~~ or even have that name themselves, to settle the matter?
Looking Dame G up in wiki, btw, I find she is exactly three days older than me!

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 02:39 PM

Whether it's spelled McEwan or McKeown, I would have no idea of how to pronounce it. So I agree that there's no improvement in the alteration.

Many years ago, I worked as an attendant at a public pool. One summer we were ready to close and catch the bus home, except that there was a forgotten five-year-old to deal with. Given the neighborhood, she probably had a long, hard=to-pronounce name of Polish derivation. She couldn't tell us anything of herself or her family except that she was "Denise."

That was when I decided that family names should be recognizable, pronouncable even by the littlest members, and spellable by the general public.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Megan L
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 03:14 PM

How do you spell MacPherson? SMITH he got fed up wie ejits askin him every twa seconds and changed it.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 03:18 PM

MacPherson rhymes with person, but final syllable pronunciation seem to vary , generally somewhere between FUR and FAIR.

Btw, in Chicago, there's a main street pronounced go-EE-thee spelled Goethe. And a town in Massachusetts pronounced Byoona Vista. Not to mention PEE-roo. Illinois.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 03:32 PM

I don't suppose there is a correct "universal" way to pronouce any proper noun.
For example, are we - English speakers - pronouncing the capital of France incorrectly when we say "Pa - ris".
Afterall, the French should know how to say it properly, and they say " Pa -ree".

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 06:52 PM

A friend of mine posts himself on Youtube as MacFiercesome!

And if you'll forgive a wee thread drift - a large number of Scots spell the word definitely wrongly, simply because they pronounce it DEFINAITELY (with emphasis on on the AI).
Hoo did that yin cam aboot?

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Guest TF
Date: 13 Jan 13 - 07:04 PM

Just because thousands of Americans pronounce it MacFeerson doesn't make them right. I've never heard anyone sing the song and pronounce it that way.
People from furth of Scotland may choose to pronounce Machinery as Mac Hinnery but here in Scotland we still pronounce it Masheenery.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 03:01 AM

Guest TF, well according to your theory, most Americans (over 200 million) would pronounce the name "Edinburgh" incorrectly!
But, as I've stated previously, there cannot be one universal pronunciation of a place name.
For, example, according to your theory, most Brits would be pronouncing New York and New Orleans incorrectly!
But, then again, according to the French, most Americans would be pronouncing the word "Orleans" incorrectly!

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Guest TF
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 06:46 AM

Precisely my point Tunesmith. Just because millions do something doesn't make it right.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:28 AM

Yes it does!
For example, the correct English speaking pronunciation of Paris is "Pa-ris", even though the French would call it "Pa-ree".
It's pretty simple, really.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 08:04 AM

This thread prompts me to ask how you pronounce Araucaria.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler (Well-known pedant)
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 08:57 AM

Slaithwaite? Chop Gate?

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 10:24 AM

I know what to do. Scour Scotland for somebody named Pherson and ask him how it's pronounced. Then add the Mac.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 12:08 PM

Tunesmith if 10 million people with questionable numeracy think 2 and 2 is five; it's still 4.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 12:45 PM

""There was some footballer that played for Wales (I think), years ago. His surname was 'Death' - pronounced DEETH.""

I think the name was originally spelled De'Ath, and pronounced Dee ath.

Don T.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 01:10 PM

Even in Scotland it isn't a hard and fast rule.

Visit Glasgow (often pronounced "Gleska"), and you will hear about "MacFURs'ns", while Edinburgh seems to be home to "MacFAIRsuns".

However, in some twenty holidays in Bonny Scotland, I have never met, or heard of, a "MacFEARson".

The Scots, apparently, are "AFEARED" of Naebody.

Don T.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 04:42 PM

Guest says

"Tunesmith if 10 million people with questionable numeracy think 2 and 2 is five; it's still 4"

Your powers of logic and reasoning are probably the lowest I have ever encountered!

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 05:47 PM

I live about five miles from the village of Trottiscliffe, in Kent, UK.

It is locally variously pronounced:

Trotscliff
Trotslee
or Trosley.

The most commonly used "Trosley" has now been adopted by the owners of "Trosley Country Park", so I guess that will be the official one henceforth.

Don T.

Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 08:10 PM

The usual way I've seen the name in this poem spelt in early sources was "Phairson":

The Massacre of MacPherson

(It's in spoofed Highland English).

Don(Wyziwyg)T has it right. The similar MacFAIRson is still the commonest pronunciation in Scots, but it's often Anglicized to MacFURson. Edinburgh is nearer to where the MacPhersons came from than Glasgow is.