Public Liability Insurance (UK)

Subject: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Mr Sooz
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:56 AM

The Lincolnshire Folk organisation has been asked to organise a day of folk music at Burghley House (Big Flash Stately Home) in the spring. We thought this seemed to be a good idea and we have enough performers available to fill the day and give a high standard of entertainment. Everyone will be giving their time freely. However it looks as if this will not actually happen because all performers have been asked to provide a copy of their Public Liability Insurance documentation.
Is this reasonable?

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 05:07 AM

Costs me about £60.00 per year to cover a book stall (!!) It's Ok to live without it until something goes wrong.

Members of the EFDSS get cover - but only for small audiences. People could probably club together I suppose. Try an insurance broker.

HTH

Dave

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 05:19 AM

Membership of the Musicians Union or Equity gives automatic Public Liabilty ! Just think what it woud cost , if some bloody fool sued because he had tripped over a speaker stand !

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Snuffy
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 05:53 AM

Membership of EFDSS, the Musician's Union, the three main Morris Organisations, and other similar organisations, includes Public Liability Insurance cover. A certificate should be included in your renewal pack each year.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: gnomad
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 06:05 AM

Association of Festival Organisers have some insurance connections, and might be able to give some pointers.

As to "reasonable", well the country is becoming increasingly litigious, so I don't blame the venue for requiring cover. It's a shame that they need to, of course, but not their fault.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 10:31 AM

I'm just about to renew the bands with Musician's Insurance Services
based in Derby...ww.musiciansinsurance.co.uk

65GBP 5000000 indemnity on one claim

Baz
ABU

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Mr Sooz
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 11:19 AM

I have Public Liability Insurance as a craft worker which covers me for craft fairs where I'm selling my wares and our Folk Club is a member of EFDSS so that we are covered for our own events and our festival. However, all of these performers are going to be out of pocket enough on the day without expecting them to pay out for insurance.
I suppose the only solution is for Lincolnshire Folk to join EFDSS but that would be a big hole out of our funds as well.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: GUEST,A .Bystander
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 11:37 AM

Surely if Burghley House has asked for,presumably,amateur players it's up to them to organise pub.lib.for the event?
Bit like having a high-class wedding and asking the guests to bring their own champers...

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 01:23 PM

Burghley is best known for the annual toff's party known as 'The Burghley Horse Trials' or some such drivel (not sure of the exact wording, the hobbies of the over-blown and over-rich don't really grab my attention).

If there's a ton of 'oss tearing about with some toffee-nosed, plummy-gobbed spoilt little madam hanging on for grim death, then I fully understand the need for that person to have PLI, some plummy-gobbed, toffee-nosed little kid might get a brusing when the rampant beast tramples him/her as it makes a bolt for it's freedom. :-)

But for f**ks sake, what sort of threat to public safety are a few old hippies like us, playing guitars (badly in my case) and groaning on about 'Jolly Plough Boys'? Other than that we might bore the public to death? And before you mention speaker-stands or electrocution, Leadfingers, they're the organisers' problem, not the performers'!

The world's gone mad. And I blame those bastard litigious yanks for sending their stupid 'sue everybody - everything's somebody else's fault and we'll squeeze 'em till the pips squeak' ideas over here.

Phew - that feels better! :-)

Love to all my readers,
Grumpy.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: oombanjo
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 01:43 PM

Mr Snooze I run 2 Small music fests a year and am involved with one other insured together. I insure the fest's through ( events-insurance.co.uk )they give you all the options you will want and are very good. Cheers Oombanjo

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 01:43 PM

Yes,Backwoodsman, ---I have often wondered about the mental state of our " cousins across the water."I read, fairly recently, the interesting case of the newspaper correspondent ( from, I think,the Daily Telegraph---or was he from the BBC ?? ) who ,on his first day in Los Angeles, or some other hellish place, ventured forth in a hire car, and had to brake suddenly to avoid running over a woman jay-walker with a child. The person (a woman) in the car behind him ,crashed into him and was injured, and SUED him !! The fact that his defence was, obviously, that he had HAD to stop ,in order to avoid killing two people, was rejected---- He had braked suddenly, in order to prevent TWO DEATHS, but was still RESPONSIBLE for the accident involving the car behind him !! And these people are supposed to be protecting us from terrorism !! Um----Thanks guys, but no thanks, to be honest !! We'll be OK ----Really !!

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 02:48 PM

RFLMAO!

Or I would be if it wasn't so ridiculous. Wasn't the blame attributable to the lady in the rear vehicle when she clearly was either (a) driving too close to the vehicle ahead, or (b) driving without due care and attention, or (and most likely) (c) both?

That's what comes of putting law-making in the hands of fools! LOL!

Anyhoo - we're well off topic (my fault, I know!), so back to the question of Burghley and PLI in the UK?

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:27 PM

"the mental state of our cousins ocross the water"
Don't be ridiculous.
That implies that they have brains!

Colyn

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 04:41 PM

In the UK anyone shunting into the rear of another vehicle is held responsible.
All event organisers have to be sure that all participants have adequate Public Liability Insurance. As Leadfingers said , just imagine the claim if someone was injured by a stray speaker or whatever especially since we are heading towards the US 'sue culture' and some courts are starting to award damages for non financial loss which at one time was not allowed in British law.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 06:01 PM

Start off by talking to Burghly House to see what their insurance covers. For a one off event it may be possible to add a small premium on to their insurance to cover any extra risk.

For any event PL insurance is a must. You may scoff at the idea of litiguous punters but if you tripped on a stray guitar, fractured skull and never worked again would you sue?

Insurance needn't be that expensive IF you tailor it correctly. Like Dave I have to have insurance to trade. Mine is £75 pa but covers for £10m personal injury and product liability insurance. I've never needed it but if I do it will be money well spent.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 06:19 PM

Mrs Duck, that is not so.

Backwoodsman, one of the things that really annoys me is the uneducated or wilfully stupid criticising those who speak properly.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 06:21 PM

PS. I am well mannered enough not wantonly to criticise the speech habits of ignorami.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 02:25 AM

Richard - don't be a pompous prick. Don't you ever laugh?

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 02:32 AM

Many of the bigger artists and agents expect event organisers to provide insurance but be careful of the small print as many event insurance policies exclude 'participants' which presumably means that if a musician was electrocuted on stage the insurance might not pay out.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 03:41 AM

Typical

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 05:21 AM

Compliment returned Richard, you little charmer.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Tyke
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 06:36 AM

Accidents do happen! I would imagine that event organizers take every care to ensure the safety of all those taking part. I would expect them to have considered the fact that when the inevitable happens they have taken out insurance to cover all those taking part.

It is unreasonable and it's just not practical to expect individual's artists to cover the events public Liability Insurance. Not only that even if each performer produced a copy of his Public Liability insurance before each and every song or tune it would be know guarantee that the insurance company would pay out. Why not? Who knows has the venue hold a music licence has every peace of electrical equipment and PA equipment been safety tested by a qualified person. Is their a rider in that MU insurance that say's an MU Contract has to be signed for that performance or some other little detail in the pages of small print stops the insurance company paying out. What about the havoc that unpaid steward volunteers might cause selling raffle tickets? What if some superstar turns up without an insurance certificate are you going to turn down the offer of a song from Bob Dylan. It has to be better and cheaper for event organizers to take out the insurance for there events.
Insurance that covers all eventualities.                              

Why complain about people being more likely to sue for damages?
Why blame the Americans or the EU?
Why make inflammatory statements blaming another country for your perceived notions of right and wrong? These statements are well out of order. You should be thanking your luck stars that you can sue and that you have the rights that your ancestors fought long and hard to gain.

If you do not agree why not hold your or attend events in some country where some of the workers slave away for long hours for little pay. Where they can't sue their employer if they are injured they are sacked and sent home! Where the are unable to sue for compensation when they are injured through no fault of there own even if they had the money to sue to compensation for any loss or injury or death.

Health and Safety might seem like a pain in the Butt and the monies paid out on insurance for your event seem wasted. I hope they are a waste and you never have to make an insurance claim. Please have a safe festival try not to fall into any Pubs or over any Morris Dancers, Buskers, Banana Skins or Aging Hippies.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 07:04 AM

"It is unreasonable and it's just not practical to expect individual's artists to cover the events public Liability Insurance"

That's precisely my point Tyke.

"Why complain about people being more likely to sue for damages?
Why blame the Americans or the EU?"

How old are you Tyke? Do you remember the days when individuals took responsibility for their own actions, and didn't expect someone to stump up a fortune if they were clumsy, or inattentive, or just plain stupid? I do. And the USA were the originators of the Litigious Society, and our own legal profession has spotted this way of making loadsa money and they've jumped on the bandwagon big-style. You will NEVER come across a poor solicitor. A friend of mine even has a solicitor-friend who keeps a list of 'Serial-Claimers' - you know, the kind of people who back-end the car in front and claim for 'whiplash' or some other difficult-to-disprove 'injury' then, as soon as that claim's settled, whoops they do it again to someone else! Again and again and again. A nice little earner.

"Where the are unable to sue for compensation when they are injured through no fault of there own even if they had the money to sue to compensation for any loss or injury or death."

No problem with that, it's fair and reasonable. What isn't fair and reasonable is when people claim for injuries when they simply weren't looking out for their OWN safety - and that's precisely why I object to the 'sue them all' thinking we have today. But far fewer court cases would mean far less money for the legal profession, which is why they encourage, by every means possible including TV and newspaper ads, everyone who so much as breaks a fingernail to sue some other poor unfortunate.

It stinks.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: MC Fat
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 07:14 AM

At Sheffield Folk Festival we added a clause in our contracts to the effect that artists had the responsibility to have Public Liability Insurance advising them to join EFDSS or Musicians Union etc. It's a bit of a 'cop-out' but it puts the ball in their court if they (the artists)don't choose to have PLI

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 07:25 AM

I don't know about the MU insurance but check the EFDSS insurance very carefully to see if you are covered. It didn't cover my bookstall at a folk festival because of the numbers of audience involved.

If Jim asked the artists to cover themselves - and people believe it reasonable to do so - then that is all Burghley House are doing with the organisation which started this thread.

I would be very careful anyway. The festival will have PLI for its own activities - a member of the public being injured because a tent collapses for example. The artists needs insurance for anything they might get sued for - dropping a concertina on someone's foot for example.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 09:21 AM

Bacwoodstwerp - you started slagging people off because you didn't like the way they speak. That's really charming.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: LeTenebreux
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 09:44 AM

This is standard in the U.S., too. Liability insurance certainly has its merits. My wife fell down some stairs at the apartment we used to live in; they had bad rails and were very slippery (they should have had rattan). Our renters insurance didn't cover it, since it wasn't in our apartment. She was fine, but her laptop was badly damaged. We made a claim with our landlord's liability insurance company and were compensated for half the damage. As a result, and nobody went to court.

Of course, by definition purchasing any sort of insurance is an "expected loss": insurance has to include some sort of markup, otherwise the insurance companies couldn't stay solvent.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Gurney
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 06:56 PM

Some performers should carry insurance. Les Barker should. He nearly killed me with the punchline of one of his poems.

He owes me some washing, anyway.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 08:28 PM

Incidentally , Public Liability Insurance CAN be invalidated if the Holder of the insurance has partaken of Alcoholic refereshment on the day ! Be VERY careful .

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 03:40 AM

Just imagine John, you break a guitar string - it coils round viciously and plunges into the main artery of a member of the nobility. the blue blood spurts forth totally ruining a Van Dyck and priceless antique Aubusson carpet, in his death throes the Duke, writhes in agony and smashes into the china cabinet full of pots signed by Josiah Wedgewood himself, with an eighteenth century biro, the whole thing is captured on camera by a visiting camera crew from Bargain Hunt. before long you are a fugitive ....hiding from justice, alone and friendless. In a lonely hotel room, you pick up your guitar and write a song about your desperate dilemma, and then the real tragedy of the situation hits you ...is it really folk music anyway?

Avoid such situations. Get yourself covered, you know it makes sense.....!

I've been a MU member for years - they never gave me a certificate. I just got a little card, like a credit card - is it on there?

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: IanC
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 06:23 AM

Open Morris is probably the cheapest at £32 a year. They also sent me a PRU licence one year to cover any non-copyright singing the Ashwell Mummers might do.

If you're insured, you'll get a certificate each year. You are now obliged to hang on to it for 20 YEARS!

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 06:48 AM

At dire risk (?) of thread drift, WLD's shtick above might well make a question for a Torts tutorial on Causation and Remoteness of Damage.

Should there be a written contract between the Organisers of the Burghley thrash, and the volunteer performers, I will lay that there will be a Clause to the effect that the volunteer performer indemnifies the Organisers/Burghley House.

PLI Insurance is recommended for Allotment gardening . . .

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 07:26 AM

Precisely what I'm saying Bryn. Were it not for the headlong charge towards the kind of litigious society they have in the states, PLI wouldn't be needed by gardeners, folk singers, flower-arrangers, morris dancers and the like. FWIW, my grandad had two allotments but I bet he'd never heard of PLI.

I don't doubt the need for PLI in today's climate, but I detest the factors that have made it so.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: IanC
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 08:05 AM

Having spoken previously to the Joint Morris Organisations, I've concluded that people aren't really any more litigious than they were - at least as far as performers are concerned. Perhaps we just perceive it that way.

Because they understand that there are some small risks to passers by, Morris teams who are members of the 3 Morris organisations have all had PL insurance since the 1960s. Of these plus EFDSS, there has actually only once been a claim on the insurance in nearly 50 years. I don't know the details but I believe it involved the EFDSS and was in the 1960s.

It's pretty important to understand that if you do cause an accident while performing, you ought to be prepared to compensate the person who might have been injured just the same as if you'd run over them in a car. You wouldn't expect a motorist to say "I just couldn't be bothered to get the insurance". I know that you're likely to do less damage, less often than someone driving a car but that's why the premiums are relatively low.

I think personal membership of Open Morris is £7 a year and for that you're covered for individual folk performances. Teams pay £32.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 08:27 AM

I too abominate the factors which have led to PLI being as near compulsory, for pretty much any leisure activity, as 'F*ck it !' is to swearing.

I was bought up on the 'Volenti non fit injuria' principles. I have scars on the finger and thumb of my left hand from having turned the wrong way in a rapper sword dance. Was I to sue the Side with which I then danced ?

I can hear the hoots of derisive laughter 30 years on - if you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined.

A trespasser took a 'short cut' across an allotment site, having no lawful right to be there. The said trespasser was injured and sued the gardeners' association. The association had PL insurance, and the insurers (whose choice it was and is to settle out of court, as it were) put the best part of £100, 000 - one hundred thousand pounds - to one side to meet the claim made.

Without PLI Liability would have been joint and several among members of the gardeners' association.

Although it blisters my tongue to say this - better safe than sorry. In my view having PLI for a leisure activity has to be compared with being a member of a Motoring Organisation - you hope you will never need it, but without it you're up Shit Creek without a paddle . . .

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 09:07 AM

Did anyone think to sue the trespasser and recover their outlay?

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Grab
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 09:53 AM

And before you mention speaker-stands or electrocution, Leadfingers, they're the organisers' problem, not the performers'!

So suppose you trip up on your way on/off-stage, bump into a speaker stand, and the speaker topples off and injures someone. That's the organiser's problem, is it?

If the organiser says they've got their own insurance, it might be their problem. Alternatively the organiser can say "all accidents involving musicians are the musicians' responsibilities" and then you want your own insurance.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 10:35 AM

Speaker stands, light rigs and other electrical equipment at festivals are usually installed by professional engineers who are trained and experienced. They usually have their own insurance policies in place to cover such accidents. Any festival organiser worth their salt would not use an unlicensed or uninsured engineer/company to install stage equipment. If you, as a performer, set up your own PA speakers and lights, then the liability is with you. If you attach your equipment to a system that is already in place, you may well invalidate the insurance policy of the original equipment and your own, so it's always best to check.

And don't forget that insurance goes two ways. If a member of the public injures or damages you or your equipment then you'd want some compensation from them wouldn't you?

As has been said before, it's all good fun until somebody loses an eye.

LTS

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 10:42 AM

Manitas - Occupiers' Liability Act 1984 ?

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 10:57 AM

.....I think I'm about to stop organising events............

This thread is scaring the cr*p out of me.

Paul

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 12:50 PM

Did anyone think to sue the trespasser and recover their outlay?

Even if they did they would have needed to make sure he had some means of payment - otherwise a fruitless exercise.

This Firm offers stand alone public liability for musicians (they also have instrument insurance at their main site which is called musicguard).

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 12:57 PM

Well we at Faldingworth Memorial Hall are covered for PLI, butin light of Mr Sooz's experience, we are going to have a look at the small print to see exactly what we are covered for.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 12:58 PM

Banjiman, you wouldn't be the first. Many a club, organisation or festival has folded because they cannot afford the ever increasing insurance costs or, in the case of certain traditional activities, find anyone to offer them a workable policy.

LTS

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 01:14 PM

Thanks LTS!!!!!!!

Does any one have any info on who covers what. I have spoken to the Landlord of the pub where we hold Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club and plan to hold the Winter Warmer Weekend. He has basically told me not to be a wuss worrying about PLI as he is covered for all the events he holds in the pub........does this stand up to scrutiny or as the organizer can I still be sued?

Any info gratefully received.

Paul

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: GUEST,Ancient Briton
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 02:14 PM

The paradox is that if you're peniless but insured, you're more likely to be sued than if you're not insured and poor.

Ambulance chasing lawyers are probably looking for pots of gold rather than for victims.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 02:21 PM

OLA '84 does not impose MUCH liability to trespassers but usually the horrid children have cut the padlock off to get in anyway...

There has been a recent-ish case when a drunken lout who broke into a swimming pool after hours and dived into the shallow end and broke his neck failed to recover from teh landowner. Hooray, sense in the courts at last.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 02:32 PM

Its a wonder that person didn't drown.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: oombanjo
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 03:03 PM

Banjiman/Paul Pli to cover up to 15 events a year at your club or in the field behind will cost you around £125.00 with events insurance. I will give you a pm with detailes. Cheers John. AKA the short fat bald one with the banjo

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 04:11 AM

And a further recent Case - some eejit climbed up the outside of a fire escape and landed on his head.

Unbelievable but true - at First Instance the proprietor of the fire escape was found liable. Fortunately the Court of Appeal saw sense and found 90% contributory negligence.

Subject: RE: Public Liability Insurance (UK)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 05:45 AM

"Its a wonder that person didn't drown."

I think you meant 'shame', Les. :-)

Folkiedave - thanks for the Insurance link, very useful.