BS: Are we really this insane?

Subject: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 08:45 AM

This link leads to a story you have probably already heard about a South African young man born with a defect which required the amputation of both legs just below the knee. Now at 21 and with much dedication and hard work along with modern technology he runs competitively and wishes to go to the summer Olympics.

Sorry. It seems he has an unfair advantage. I guess the Olympic Committee fears that he'll start a fad with runners chopping their legs off to run faster.

Geeziz.....gimmee a break......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 08:48 AM

What is wierd is that I knew Neal Rudin who propsed these kind of running devices for normal people 35 years ago.

Ever seen the TV commercial where everyone was wearing these things?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 09:01 AM

Cyborg Olympics coming up next!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 09:03 AM

The only advantage I can see is no chance of hamstring injuries, twisted ankles, ect. But yes - it does seem rather silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 09:04 AM

According to an NPR story last evening the carbon-fiber "blades" give him less of an advantage in running than bone does.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 09:05 AM

I didn't read the story, but the point of Olympic competition is not inclusiveness, it's competition. If he can make the cut, he should go like everyone else who makes the cut.

People who can't make the cut because of physical difference or disability compete at a different level.

On the local level, people choose which level to go for. People who rise to the top in the local competition go on to a regional competition, etc.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Brendy
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 09:11 AM

"Ever seen the TV commercial where everyone was wearing these things?"

Great ad...

I think part of the IOC's reason was that he had to 'put them on'... i.e. take his prosthetic legs off in order to put his 'running' ones on. That was where he apparently had the advantage over the supposedly more able-bodied runners.

They had something along the same lines in Winter Sports a number of years ago, where the entire Dutch Speed Skating team attached retractable blades to their skates, which knocked several seconds off lap-times. There was up-roar, but they were eventually allowed....., and now they're all at it....

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 09:13 AM

Actually, he's been cut because of unfair ADVANTAGE, not disadvantage. And I agree - people with only flesh-and-blood legs should compete together. People with cyborg parts should have their own competitions... which they do, don't they? You don't have to have Down's Syndrome to participate in the parolympics (sp?), do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 09:19 AM

the point of Olympic competition is not inclusiveness, it's competition.

Would that it were, but not so... The point of the Olympics, as evidenced by its sorry history, is making mountains of money for all & sundry before, during and after the fact.

Oh yes, and the widespread use of illegal drugs to give a REAL unfair advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 09:29 AM

Lets test athletes for coffee and caffiene or low cholestorol since these things are an unfair advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 09:33 AM

Lets not stop with Marion Jones, lets imprison Mohamed Ali for steroids.

Also jail all the home run champs for the last 7 years. Then lets go after Arnold Schwar.... opps I guess he is untouchable now.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Brendy
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 10:03 AM

... yes, but he'll be back... ;-)

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 10:15 AM

Nice to see the Olympic Committee is remaining true to form.

Perhaps if he were to offer them 10% of his post-Olympic earnings they would have a change of heart?

The Olympics, which I used to watch avidly, are no longer part of my life. They used to be about healthy competition. Now they are about money. In the words of WC Fields, "F    'em!"

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 10:16 AM

LOL......Good one Brendy!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 10:30 AM

From the article:

Pistorius's paralympic world record of 46.34 seconds is however way behind the best times by able-bodied runners.

The fastest time of an athlete still competing is 43.50 set by American Jeremy Wariner, while the world record stands at 43.18, set by compatriot Michael Johnson. Pistorius has also not managed to achieve the Olympic qualifying time.

Seems to be they are putting the cart before the horse...and not a bionic horse, either!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 10:52 AM

Olympics
Paralympics
Special Olympics

Anyone care to write the distingising features of each? The second two are often confused.....

GregF, I agree BTW.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Grab
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 11:15 AM

Spaw, the point you're missing is that yes, he *does* have an unfair advantage. Those carbon-fiber blades make it easier for him to run than an athlete with normal legs. He needs less energy for the same speed/distance than a "regular" athlete.

You might also have noticed that paralympic athletes in wheelchairs are going significantly faster than "regular" athletes. The world record for men's marathon is 2 hours 4 minutes; the men's wheelchair marathon record is 1:18. Again, it's fairly easy to spot that mechanical aids give you some advantage, so no-one suggests that wheelchair athletes should be allowed to compete in the same category.

And regarding these blades, have you seen films of people using them? Bouncing up and down, they're easily clearing 6 foot in the air continuously, so what do you think that'd do if they allowed those in high-jump against "regular" athletes without them? Major advantage again.

Of course, the obvious response if blade-equipped amputees were allowed to compete would be that every "regular" athlete would get themselves a set of carbon-fibre blades as well, to be attached to their feet. They'd then have the same advantages, and this guy would be left in their dust.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Raptor
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 11:32 AM

Great the time is fast aproaching when the countries of the world will, for a short time, forget about thier differences and come togeather to send the young men and women that have spent most of thier young lives training for most of thier time every day to go and proudly represent thier country and try harder that most of us could or would understand so a bunch of whiners can bitch and moan about a few cases of steroid use or bad judging and make lite of all the hard work millians of people have put into it, instead of just NOT WATCHING it themselves. We realy need people to constantly telling us that what we enjoy is not what we should enjoy because they don't like it.

A wise man said "People always knock what they don't understand"

Why don't we have a thread for those people who want to complain about the Olympics every year they drag out the same tired arguements about the cost, or that we should boycot some country or another cause we have some predudice about the way we think they should behave, or that becaue someone took drugs, all sports are corrupt.

Those people can have a thread that they can agree with each other about how they know best about what I should enjoy watching.



If someone spent thier entire life traing to run as fast as they can I think that it would be unfair to let "Oscar Goldman" Build a "Bionic man" to race him.

I'm proud of all the Canadian Kids that will compete for my country!
Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Brendy
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 12:34 PM

How're ye Spaw...? Good to see you ;-)

Yeah, I suppose we'll have the '400 metres for the Criminally Insane', at some stage....

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 12:52 PM

They have it already. It's called the Race for the Presidency.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Brendy
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 12:59 PM

LOL

'Javelin for the Seriously Constipated'

B.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 01:00 PM

(snort!) ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 01:06 PM

Raptor: I agree and support the kids who train so hard to compete with their peers. In my youth I trained with a few guys who did get to the Mexico City Olympics. I was very very happy for them. Had it not been for a bad dismount from his rings routine, one of the fellows would have 'medalled' (bronze). Broke my heart to see that on TV.

However, I guess I have gotten away from it because of various 'decisions' that were obviously predetermined. Judges who shouldn't have been--watching some countries give 9.5s to performances that deserved 7.5s--what the other judges gave. Maybe I'm just jaded.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 02:48 PM

It makes little difference whether he is at an advantage OR a disadvantage, there's no reasonable way to compare his achievements with other runners. It just makes little sense to do this as competition. He can run, enjoy, and be a good example....but let's not have a record full of asterisks.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 02:55 PM

Hey, then we could go to the Black Olympics, the White Olympics, the Yellow Olympics.....geeze.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: freightdawg
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 03:40 PM

As I understood the ruling, it was made with reference to his specific blades in particular. The ruling did not include all blades per se, but his specific blades. And the advantage that he gained was not so much in speed (as was noted above,) but that he required less energy to achieve the speed he did attain, and he had no lower leg muscle discomfort. As any runner knows, its not your bones that make you quit running, or that cramp up, or that seem to take a vacation every once in awhile no matter how hard you've trained, its your muscles and other soft tissues. He has no danger of sprains, ligament damage, etc.

I equate this with the fellow a few years ago who wanted to compete in the PGA tour but he had a muscle problem that prevented him from walking a full 18 holes. He wanted to use a cart, the PGA denied his request and he sued - and he eventually won. I don't know what ever became of the golfer. He really wasn't all that good. But the issue was one of fairness - everyone else had to be on their feet and walk over a 6 or 7 thousand foot course. He had a distinct advantage over all of his fellow competitors, as he just had to walk a few hundred. The PGA had it right, the courts screwed it up.

Let the sports agencies police their own turf. Keep the courts out of it.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 09:13 PM

Google "Hugh Herr".

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 09:23 PM

After losing one leg, he was asked if it was O.K. to do the other one. He didn't say anthing!

Why?

He was stumped!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 09:26 PM

So I said to my one-legged wife, "Peg?"
----(Utah Phillips 1972 at the Earl Of Old Town in Chicago...)

Ah, nostalgia!!!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 09:35 PM

Art,

He wanted to know if he could play baseball after the operation. They made him an offer as home plate.

Your jokes are terrible. Just TERRIBLE!!! I love 'em.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 09:45 PM

...and my old uncle had a wooden leg--------------from the knee up!

My aunt died of terminal slivers.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 10:11 PM

... and he had a kid called Phil Slivers...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 09:18 AM

I think he should be allowed to compete, but on an "exhibition" basis. Since the question of advantage/disadvantage can't possibly be answered, I don't think he should be eligible for any of the regular medals in his event. But if he's fast enough to make it to medalist level, give him an additional medal. If he comes in third, give him a bronze medal, but give the normal runner who finishes fourth one as well.

Apples shouldn't be allowed to compete against oranges, but that doesn't mean they can't both be in the same salad.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Raptor
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 09:19 AM

Peace You are jaded, and that saddens me.

Think of all the pure sports and healthy competition you are missing out on. I'm with you I felt the same rage with the scorring of Salay & Peltier but think about the emotion you felt when you watched them skate that perfect routine before the judges had thier say. We watch it for them not the judging.

The Olympics is the only spot where we are going to see Hockey as it was meant to be played. Without the voilence that the NHL feels that they need to have to sell tickets. Remember the days when Guy Lafluor and Bobby Orr skated around gracefully and made it artistic? They didn't even need helmuts because there was nobody going to hit them on the head with a stick.

It reminds me of Christmas.
To me it is a time for family to come togeather and a time full of wonderfull memories of childhood such as puting up lights with my dad or trimming a tree with mum, or making crafts and gifts at school for my family....
But theres always some misirable bastards who spend the whole season telling everyone who'll listen that Christmas is a cash grab invented by halmark or wallmart to take peoples hard earned money. These people can't just shut up and ignore christmas they need to convince everyone they can to hate it too. Misrirable people hate to be alone.

I have no problem with people who dislike things (I myself am a very dissagreable fellow to the point of being an asshole on occasion). I have a problem with people who need you you agree with thier contentions.

Peace enjoy your pride and revel in the kids performance. It'll be good for you.

Cheers brother!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 10:08 AM

Cheers back to you, Raptor. I will likely watch some events, but I do hope there's no repeat of the French judge's decision because I actually do know how hard the kids train for a shot at the medals. And I do know that for some it's about personal bests. But I still think the Olympic Committee is more interested in money than people.

"I myself am a very dissagreable fellow to the point of being an asshole on occasion"

Me too. Tread lightly. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 10:50 AM

People LIKE to say hockey is violent, but it is a physical game as much as football. No one complains that football is "violent," yet hockey has far fewer injuries than football, and deliberate intent to injury IS punished heavily and proactively. The physical side of the game comes not from league money motives, but from the pond hockey of young boys using their brute strength to vie for ice position.

People also do not understand that what is called "hitting" in hockey is, in fact, a skill move that frees up the puck, not something done for nastiness. There is a right way and a wrong way to do it, and the object is to win puck possession and ice position.

People also do not understand that the forces applied to a skater on ice-- a slippery surface-- are dissipated by the recipient's movement on that surface, unkike the unyielding surface of a football field.

Avoiding a "hit" also is a learned skill.

There are no victims in hockey.

If you don't like hockey, that's fine, but decrying it on the basis of what is not understood is just mean-spirited.

And equating hockey with figure skating-- that's just ridiculous.

So hockey is not Zen Buddhism. It's not trying to be! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Raptor
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 12:14 PM

There are no victims in hockey?

Tell that to the guy that marty mc sorly hit with his stick!

or the guy that lost his career by getting punched in the head!

or the guy that got his leg stomped on by a guy who just got off suspension for 5 other dirty offences!

No one complains that football is "violent,"

After the play football players help each other up not punch each other down, If that shit ever happened in football the players would get more than a "two minute" suspension.

There is nothing sporting about the fights that are allowed if not encouraged in Hockey!

They say that the coach called for the hit on Moore!

It is like WWF wrestling. Very entertaining but not sporting!

"far fewer injuries than football" Football is rough and more pysical not more violent.

"The physical side of the game comes not from league money motives"

If not to sell tickets then why do they let the fights go on?

Hockey as played in the Olympics is a wonderfull sport but the NHL is full of brutes not atholetes.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 04:38 PM

Yes there is.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Raptor
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 05:22 PM

Art what are you agreeing too?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 08:12 PM

Raptor,

No, there are no victims: everyone who goes into it goes into the game as it is, that they have dreamed of playing-- not the game you wish it would be.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Raptor
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 07:28 AM

So Moore Deserved the punch in the back of the head to give him a concusion that ended his career and agreed to it by joining the NHL?

Nice sport.

I suspect the fellow that calls this entertainment.

Who is your favorite wrestler?

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 08:11 AM

I'm reminded here of the case of Carroll Walker, An archer who lost an arm and rehabilitated himself by learning to draw the bow with his teeth. After a few years of practice he had achieved an amazing degree of accuracy. He was easily able to outshoot able-bodied archers. When he was tipped for the Olympics he was unable to go as the Committee decided "The method of drawing employed is not consistent with that expected for an olympic competitor" Obviously the same double standard applies to Pistorius and by extension to any disabled athlete who wishes to compete with the able-bodied. Hardly an incentive?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Raptor
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 08:37 AM

Susan I'm glad you like NHL, thats great, enjoy, whos your team?

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 09:06 AM

Lets test athletes for coffee and caffiene or low cholestorol since these things are an unfair advantage....Lets not stop with Marion Jones, lets imprison Mohamed Ali for steroids. Also jail all the home run champs for the last 7 years.

Right you are - its perfectly OK to jail some poor Black urban kid for life for using one sort of illegal substance, and these athletic paragons should get a free pass for using another sort.

...young men and women that have spent most of thier young lives training for most of thier time every day...

Just imagine what could be accomplished if these same wonderful young men and women spent that amount of time and effort doing something meaningful for someone else- instead of for their narcissistic selves.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Raptor
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 10:19 AM

"doing something meaningful for someone else"

We get that it does't mean anything to you, but you only speak for you, I hope....

Talk about narcissistic.

"its perfectly OK to jail some poor Black urban kid for life for using one sort of illegal substance, and these athletic paragons should get a free pass for using another sort."

Black kids can take all the steriods they want, there is a difference between Ileagal substances and substances Banned from sports because of unfair advantage.

I need a drug for bad spelling.

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 10:22 AM

Wyh?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 10:52 AM

Raptor, our NHL team is the Penguins.

A fight broke out seven seconds into the game Monday night against the Rangers, and the Penguins started it.

Started it?

The Penguins all but predetermined the game-opening bout between heavyweights Georges Laraque and Colton Orr.

Their motivation resulted in part from what had taken place Dec. 18 at Madison Square Garden. The Pens lost to the Rangers that night, 4-0, and they took a physical beating in the process.
"We looked like kindergarten kids against men," Laraque said.

Remembering as much, and recalling the Rangers' success matching their fourth line against Sidney Crosby's line this season, the Pens opted for a pre-emptive strike.

Upon learning Orr would start the game, the Pens decided to send Laraque, Jeff Taffe and Adam Hall out for the opening face-off.

And they positioned Laraque at left wing, directly across from Orr.

"I'm a right wing, and I go to the left," Laraque said. "I think Colton knew I was going to ask him (to drop the gloves). I would never be in front of him (normally).

"It was too obvious. I don't even think our center worried about winning the face-off."

That's far from the only example of how the Pens have ratcheted up their physical resolve of late, but it's the most recent.

"I wanted to set the tone and show that this game we weren't going to be intimidated physically," Laraque said. "When you fight like that, all the guys on the team kind of respond.

"You saw Geno (the normally mild-mannered Evgeni Malkin) throwing body checks."

Such events tend to have a ripple effect, and it's finishing checks and playing with an edge that ultimately makes a difference once the gloves are picked back up.

But dropping them in the first place when necessary, and the sudden roster-wide willingness to do so, has helped jump-start a Penguins season that had been stuck in neutral.


~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 11:28 AM

Boxing on skates. Quaint.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 11:36 AM

And slidey.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Are we really this insane?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 12:09 PM

there is a difference between Illegal substances and substances Banned from sports...

And that difference is what, precisely? Both are chemicals arbitrarily selected & banned by the overclass to protect people from themselves. Current version Volstead Act, and just as successful- tho considerably more expensive.

Black kids can take all the steriods they want...,
uh, not legally they (or white or blue kids or adults for that matter) can't. Check the law (at least in the U.S., the free-est country in the world...

We get that it does't mean anything to you, but you only speak for you, I hope...

Hope is indeed a wonderful thing, but you'll find in reality that I'm hardly the only one.