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Subject: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Wesley S Date: 17 Jan 08 - 04:01 PM After watching Comanche Moon on TV the last few nights I was wondering if anyone had managed to read all four of the books in Larry McMurtrys Lonesome Dove series? I've read the original but now I'm tempted to read the other three books. I doubt that anyone else has attempted as far reaching and massive a western series as this one before. Most westerns tend to be short affairs – at least the ones I've run into. And it can be argued that McMurtry elevated the western somewhat. Like it or not it's a step above what we usually see on the western book shelves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Amos Date: 17 Jan 08 - 04:23 PM Read the firast two and enjoyed them both. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Bobert Date: 17 Jan 08 - 04:29 PM Didn't read any of 'um but his son, James, is one fine singer/song writer... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: kendall Date: 17 Jan 08 - 04:34 PM I read the first one, saw the tv series, watched the sequel on tv and that was it. Without Gus and Coll it just wasn't Lonesome Dove. The original was the best western I have ever seen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Wesley S Date: 17 Jan 08 - 04:49 PM If I recall the sequel "Return to Lonesome Dove" was done without McMurtrys help or input. I'll have to look that up to make sure. But agreed - the original was the best western I've seen too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: John O'L Date: 17 Jan 08 - 07:13 PM I used to see various bits & pieces of various episodes from Lonesome Dove The Series and Lonesome Dove The Outlaw Years on TV, (featuring Scott Bairstow as Newt Call), but due to my work roster (aka "lifestyle"), I was unable to give the show the attention it deserved. I have since tried to get either or both on DVD but they are unavailable for region 4. While I appreciate that this regional exclusivity is a service provided by the global corporation for my convenience, and is of enormous benefit to countless millions in third world countries, all I really wanted was to watch a few TV shows. Too much to ask, I guess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego Date: 17 Jan 08 - 07:23 PM I just enjoyed the "Comanche Moon" series. I had read the book some years ago. I found this last effort to be much better and more faithful to the story and the characters than the "Return to Lonesome Dove" film. Having spent a lot of time in Texas with relatives there and having read a good deal of Texas history, including revisionist versions, McMurtry nails character, place and language as well as any writer of the western genre. The lead characters in this series were eerily similar to the Gus and Woodrow characters as portrayed by the great Robert Duvall and Tommy Lee Jones in the original. You could almost smell the dirt and the "roadapples" in this one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: DougR Date: 17 Jan 08 - 07:48 PM I agree that Lonesome Dove was the best western series ever. I've read all four of the books and the only one to disappoint was the one about the long walk into New Mexico and darned if I can remember the name of the book ...oops, I remember it now, "Dead Man's Walk." DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Midchuck Date: 17 Jan 08 - 07:52 PM If you consider all of Louis L'Amour's books about the Sackett family as one series, it dwarfs McMurtry's. Not that I'd knock McMurtry. Peter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: katlaughing Date: 17 Jan 08 - 07:58 PM That's kind of what I was thinking, Peter, though not the latter as I have not read any of McMurtry. Something put me off him and the original movie, many years ago and I've not been interested since. Maybe I'll try both, again, some day. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Jan 08 - 08:23 PM Larry McMurtry's books are all exceedingly well written, I think, and they are among the finest works of western fiction ever...but they are ultimately quite depressing also. That bothers me, and it kind of spoiled the experience of reading them for me. I don't believe in a defeatist philosophy of life that ends in the final death and collapse of everyone's best hopes and dreams...in the final defeat of their best potential. I realize that life sometimes IS like that for a lot of people, but I see little use in composing a brilliant work of fiction that leads to such nihilistic conclusions. (I would have to assume that Larry McMurtry has no belief in anything beyond this physical life...in which case, of course, every life would finally end in complete defeat and dissolution. I don't see it that way at all. Not for a moment.) Fiction might better serve to inspire people with what is possible and what is noble and triumphant, then to simply depress them with the presumed ultimate futility of our mortal existence. Larry McMurtry's stories are spectacularly well told, but they leave a really bad taste in my mouth when they end...the taste of death, disillusionment, and ashes. I don't need it. Louis L'Amour's books are brilliant in a quite different way, and they don't leave that bad taste in my mouth when the story ends. Elmore Leonard's books likewise. If a story is a true life story that ends in someone's defeat and tragedy...great...I appreciate hearing what really happened in any true life story....but I don't particularly long for fictional stories that make me feel like slitting my own wrists when I finally reach the words: "The End". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: katlaughing Date: 17 Jan 08 - 10:06 PM Maybe that's what put me off, LH. I can't remember; only that I was just not interested from looking them over. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Art Thieme Date: 17 Jan 08 - 10:35 PM To me, the original L.D. was just about the best western film I've ever seen. I'm looking forward to seeing this prequil. Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Uncle Phil Date: 17 Jan 08 - 11:22 PM I enjoyed reading all four books, though it's been a long time since I read them. Comanche Moon was the last one published and it came out in 1997. Michelle and I were talking last night about rereading them in chronological order instead of the order they were published. That means starting with Dead Man's Walk, my least favorite of the four. I don't recall the books as being depressing – realistic and unsentimental but not depressing. It should be interesting if I feel differently rereading them after more than a decade. I can't speak too much about the TV. I saw bits of Streets of Laredo and it looked pretty good. I watched most of Comanche Moon and thought it was well done. - Phil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Jan 08 - 11:30 PM There were opportunities in Lonesome Dove for various important characters in the story (particularly Augustus McCrae, who was a man of really great possibility) to overcome their key weaknesses, to get past their blind spots in life and turn their whole destiny around...to triumph over their limitations and their long-accustomed habits and make a profound breakthrough. Not one of them did. They all held doggedly to their established attitudes, whatever the heck those were, until it finally destroyed them and those they loved the best. They threw their lives away frivolously and uselessly, despite showing great heroism in the struggle. Call was the worst. The man was an utter disaster. McCrae could have saved himself, he had the character and intelligence to do it, but he ran away instead from the one woman he truly loved to die a pointless and foolish death in Montana. It makes me sick reading something like that. It's the utter defeat of the human Spirit. Real life is tough enough already without composing fictional stories like that which make you feel even worse about it than you already did. That's my objection to Larry McMurtry. I cannot believe what he seems to believe about human existence, and I cannot fathom why he would want to write the kind of stories he does...although he writes them quite brilliantly, no doubt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Art Thieme Date: 18 Jan 08 - 10:36 AM Yes, Little Hawk, you have a point there. But still, life being ultimately tragic for everyone when all is said and done, our free wills allow us that latitude to be admirable or not in the choices we've made. If any of the judgements of it matters at all, and I don't think they do, McMurtry's created picture of human nature is consistent with many machinations of human nature we all exhibit----and many will lead to our downfalls that friends, family and the media will analize 'til the cows come home in spite of it being as meaningless as my pronouncements here. Conversely, if life is tragic, comic relief is the other side of that coin. The yin for the yang of it. Tragedy and comedy sharply defined--and shades of gray as well to allow for enlightening irony. And if comedy is relief, as it is said to be, it is relief from that basic tragedy of life! All the characters are, as we all are to various extents, classic Aristotilian tragidians whose demises are preordained to be a result of their many human flaws----along with the numerous positive traits acting dynamically to create the entire Gestalt for the reader! Bottom line: Add on Robert Duvall and Tommy Lee Jones and you have a GREAT TALE, and it's really well told. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Amos Date: 18 Jan 08 - 11:18 AM Art, you never cease to surprise and delight me with your hidden talents. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: KB in Iowa Date: 18 Jan 08 - 11:38 AM Adding Robert Duvall to just about anything would make it better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: katlaughing Date: 18 Jan 08 - 12:39 PM My Dear FineArt, I have just added to that my file of Art Thiemeisms for "that book" someday. Anybody ever told you how amazing, wise, inspiring you are? Heck, I'll even reconsider the movie because of you, my friend.:-) luvyakat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 08 - 01:19 PM Well said, Art. ;-) Indeed, the humorous twist in the stories does, as you say, form the perfect counterpoint for the tragedy...and I'd say that that is the greatest strength of McMurtry's writing right there, the way he brings humor in, and it's what I like best about the books. McCrae, in particular, is just a delightfully witty character. I thoroughly enjoyed reading "Lonesome Dove" up to a certain point...and then it began to bother me how all the characters were, one way or another, being defeated by life (and by their weaknesses or blind spots). It bothered me more and more, but I perservered to the final end of the story....which I found totally, utterly depressing, as I've said. Being a person who is sometimes afflicted by depression anyway....I don't need that! There are ways to end a life which have grandeur, meaning, and great dignity, heroism and nobility. It isn't always just a sorry and miserable end, and it's never meaningless. Not in my opinion. Matter of fact, I don't think anything is meaningless that happens in life. I think it's all imbued with tremendous meaning. People just don't see that most of the time, because they are unaware of the part they play, and they're distracted by little things. Inspired people do see the meaning that's at the heart of life, and they are remembered for that long after they leave this world. Your pronouncements here may not be as meaningless as you assert, because they are part of your own sacred journey. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Art Thieme Date: 18 Jan 08 - 01:41 PM I too have a depressed side. Zoloft might be keeping me from being bummed out more by a downer read. But I think it's mainly our situational stuff going down here that takes me lower on occasion--and colors and inhibits my receptiveness. There are many films with gratuitous violence and horror that put me in a place I'd rather not go, and I've walked out on them. 3:10 To Yuma was too crammed with negatives, but another factor is that I simply don't like Russell Crowe. L.H., I enjoy reading your posts all the time. That goes for Amos and Kat and Mick and so many others here. Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 08 - 01:47 PM Thanks, Art. I enjoy reading your posts too. They are very well thought out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 08 - 02:11 PM One Russell Crowe film that you might like is "Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World". It's a stunningly fine adaptation of one of O'Brien's books about the days of fighting sail... It could hardly have been better done, in my opinion, and Russell Crowe plays the part of Captain Jack Aubrey very well. He hits just the right notes. The character Jack Aubrey was loosely based on a British naval commander named Cochrane, a man who had a simply extraordinary fighting career for the British Navy at that time when they were definitely the foremost naval power in the world, and were locked in a titanic struggle with France (and at times, Spain). Interestingly enough, I don't think Cochrane ever went up against the Americans, who had a small but extremely good navy of their own at that time. If he had, I'm betting he would have won...but who can say for sure? ;-) The Americans had a handful of the best designed frigates in the world in the early 1800s, and they used them to considerable effect. That is in fact touched on in the movie, as Aubrey is forced to take on a French-commanded frigate that has been built on contract in American shipyards, a vessel that considerably outclasses his own smaller British-built frigate in every regard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: kendall Date: 18 Jan 08 - 02:30 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: deadfrett Date: 18 Jan 08 - 04:12 PM I've been a fan of McMurtry's since reading the Last Picture Show. His tales of Texas and his characters have all was seemed to ring true to life. After re-reading Commanche Moon and viewing the TV version I was disappointed. Pablum for the idiot box. It seems as though aleast two thirds of the story was removed or rewritten. If they did this to the L.D. series, I can't imagine what the Berrybender saga will be like if they get that into production. As for Master and Commander, great movie. I hope they do more of O'Brien's books. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: DougR Date: 18 Jan 08 - 04:14 PM "The Wisdom of Kendall?" DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Art Thieme Date: 18 Jan 08 - 04:42 PM ...but I did not care for the guy who played Blue Duck in the original either. A young Floyd Westerman type would've been better I thought. (But not Graham Greene either.) An actual Blue Duck was a lover of Belle Star's according to Woody's song. Any historical insights into that from somebody? And the real Charlie Goodnight took Oliver Loving's body back to Texas much like Call took Gus back to his grove of trees in the book. I've always loved Utah's song "The Goodnight-Loving Trail"---did it for many years. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 08 - 05:09 PM Yeah, I also thought the actor they used for Blue Duck in the movie wasn't quite right for the part... Someone should do a fully fleshed out movie version of the Louis L'Amour story, "Jubal Sackett". It would make one hell of a good movie if they did it right. The guy who played David Crocket in the recent Alamo film would be great for the part of Jubal Sackett in his middle to later years... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 18 Jan 08 - 05:55 PM I thought they HAD done a Jubal Sackett movie for TV.Perhaps with Tom Selleck? Maybe I'm wrong. LH - I know what you said about some of the characters in the McMurtry books being defeated in life - but I try to see those defeats as positives in the long run. I try to learn from the mistakes some of these folks made. It was the character of Call that helped me to open up a little to some of the choices I could make. He served as a negitive roll model for me. I didn't want to end up like him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Jan 08 - 05:58 PM Yes, I can understand looking at it that way, for sure, Wesley. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 18 Jan 08 - 06:06 PM Sometimes the very besy way for me to make up my mind about an issue is to hear the opposing viewpoint. Call was that way for me. I was determined that I wasn't going to lock up my emotions like he did. We have a movie critic here in town that I almost always disagree with. If I'm on the cuff about seeing a film - and he hates it - I'll go check it out for sure. Sometimes the best examples don't have to be good examples. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Midchuck Date: 18 Jan 08 - 09:47 PM They did a TV miniseries about the Sackett brothers that the first books were about - Orin and Tyrell 'n them. Jubal was the first one over, a couple hundred years earlier, IIRC. Peter |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: GUEST Date: 19 Jan 08 - 02:25 AM About the "depressing" thing-- McMurtry has attempted classic tragedy in this series. In this (and other) such work, every choice by the characters is always the worst--except for all the other choices. Tragic heroes are true to themselves, persistent in their choices, and fearless in the face of consequences. They triumph heroicly, strive mightily and fail because of their humanity. McMurtry is pretty good at all this. I love "Lonesome Dove" and "Comanche Moon." Gus and Call and Buffalo Hump are the real deal when it comes to this sort of ambitious fiction. By the way, for fans-- McMurtry wrote a lesser known, much shorter, western called "Anything for Billy" that I like about as well. It is much more highly refined, and should be on any serious reader's list of great writing by great authors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: kendall Date: 19 Jan 08 - 09:11 AM Master and Commander was a very good book and film.However, I think O'Brien spends too much time on nomenclature. Who cares what a "Cross catharping" or a "Cunt splice" is? He is a good writer, but he won't replace C.S. Forrester and Horatio Hornblower. In Lonesome Dove, the obligitory rape scene I could have done without.I always have a problem with such violence. However, when Gus rode into their camp and evened the score, I cheered inwardly. McMurtry knows how to push my buttons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Jan 08 - 01:21 PM "In this (and other) such work, every choice by the characters is always the worst--except for all the other choices. Tragic heroes are true to themselves, persistent in their choices, and fearless in the face of consequences. They triumph heroicly, strive mightily and fail because of their humanity." Sounds like a description of George Bush's approach to foreign and domestic policy in a nutshell! ;-) (persist stubbornly in your unwise choices...brook no interference....never change your mind no matter what...raise a lot of ruckus...do a shitload of damage...fail tragically in the end, and be remembered as a damn fool by posterity) Maybe that is the unofficial credo of the American West! ;-) Bush, after all, seems to think of himself as a cowboy. kendall - I agree with your comments on O'Brien's writing. I think it's overly wordy and drawn-out, and I think that C.S. Forester's books (the Hornblower series) are much superior as adventure fiction, because they tell their story wonderfully and they stick mainly to the characters, who are quite interesting ones, and the action itself...rather than burying the reader in interminable volumes of minutiae. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Art Thieme Date: 19 Jan 08 - 02:49 PM Rather likle Melville |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: kendall Date: 19 Jan 08 - 03:16 PM Melville is in a class by himself. " There will come a day at sea when you'll smell land where there be no land. And, on that day, Ahab will go to his grave; but he'll rise again and beckon, and all, all,save one, will follow." (Moby Dick) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Jan 08 - 05:40 PM Yes, that's real drama...no doubt about it. Quite the tale. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: kendall Date: 19 Jan 08 - 06:29 PM Who, in his right mind, would sail on the Pequod after that warning? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Jan 08 - 06:38 PM A fatalist might. Or a man with a subliminal death wish. Or a man caught up in the irresistible pattern of his own destiny...like Ahab. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: kendall Date: 20 Jan 08 - 07:50 AM I said, "In his right mind." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Jan 08 - 12:15 PM Yes. (smile) Well, how many people are truly in their right mind? That's the question... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: DougR Date: 20 Jan 08 - 03:29 PM Folks got more than one mind, LH? Kendall: :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Jan 08 - 04:08 PM I've seen people that were of two minds... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Art Thieme Date: 20 Jan 08 - 05:44 PM folk lyric--trad: If I'd a-listened to my second mind, I'd be free and not doing this time! Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: fumblefingers Date: 20 Jan 08 - 10:05 PM Buffalo Hump (PO-CHA-N'A-QUAR-HIP) was a real Comanche War Chief. He, among other tribal chiefs and Sam Houston, signed the Treaty of Tehuacana Creek in 1844. But he broke it in 1845. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: kendall Date: 21 Jan 08 - 08:16 AM Jacqui and I watched Commanche Moon yesterday. I simply couldn't connect with any of the characters at all. I saw it as a typical sequel not worth watching the first time, let alone a second. All those Star Trek wannabees are the same. No other characters can fill Spok's shoes, or McCoy's or Scotty's. You must have a good story line, but strong characters are what make or break the whole thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jan 08 - 11:31 AM Hey, man...nobody can fill Picard's or Data's shoes either! And they weren't in the first series. The original Star Trek was classic, no doubt...but the Next Generation show was actually a better drama with much superior acting and much superior storylines. Following that to the next lot of sequels after NG, however, I agree with your analogy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: DougR Date: 21 Jan 08 - 03:47 PM Gotta go with Kendall on this one. I tried the first episode of Commanche Moon over the weekend and couldn't get with the characters. Perhaps, if I had not read the book ...or seen Lonesome Dove. This production reminded me of a dime western movie in the mid to late 1930's. I didn't finish watching the first episode. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: kendall Date: 21 Jan 08 - 04:36 PM That's what makes horse racing. I often get up to watch old Star Trek re runs at 6 am, but I wouldn't do that for any of the Johnnies come lately. Sorry, they just don't grab me. It's like HIGH NOON IN color. No thanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jan 08 - 05:29 PM Just imagine what it would have been like if they'd had Adam Sandler and John Belushi playing the male leads... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Lonesome EJ Date: 21 Jan 08 - 06:24 PM Hey, I thought Frederick Forrest was excellent as Blue Duck...cold-blooded, clever, silent as a ghost. The scene where he confronts Gus in the river is one of my favorite scenes in the series. LH said "Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World". It's a stunningly fine adaptation of one of O'Brien's books. It's actually a combination of two of his books. Obrien's novels are well-written, exciting, and often humorous. I love the name of the Spanish Frigate that Aubrey and his crew pursues in an early book...the Caca Fuego (Shit Fire). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jan 08 - 07:44 PM Yes, you're right, it's from two O'Brien books. The encounter with the Caca Fuego was a memorable one indeed. I do think O'Brien's books are extremely good, but I don't think they're as good as C.S. Forester's books, that's all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Uncle Phil Date: 21 Jan 08 - 11:48 PM I rather liked what I saw of Comanche Moon on the TV, particularly the actors who played Gus and Clara. I've starting re-reading the books, and thought the actors caught Gus and Clara pretty well. - Phil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Wesley S Date: 22 Jan 08 - 11:41 AM Here's some trivia about Lonesome Dove from www.imdb.com: Originally written by Larry McMurtry in 1971 as a movie script. He intended John Wayne to play Woodrow Call, James Stewart to play Gus McCrae and Henry Fonda to play Jake Spoon, with Peter Bogdanovich directing. Wayne turned it down, and the project was shelved. Ten years later McMurtry bought the script back and wrote the book (on which the series was based). Charles Bronson turned down the role of Woodrow Call Robert Duvall was cast as Woodrow Call but then got the part of Augustus. James Garner was chosen next but bowed out for health reasons, and Jon Voight turned down the role, so Tommy Lee Jones was cast. However, both Garner and Voight would portray Woodrow Call in sequels. The set of San Antonio street, at the Alamo, is the set built for Alamo: The Price of Freedom (1988). It was designed by Roger Ragland. The Latin phrase, "uva uvam vivendo varia fit" that appears on the Hat Creek Cattle Company sign translates to "a cluster of grapes through living begets one grape," representing the synthesis of Larry McMurtry's tale as an American epic. Virtually every major role from this film has also appeared in one of its sequels, and almost all of them have been recast, sometimes several times. In three cases, original cast member have been able to work with one of their successors. Timothy Scott reprised his role in the unofficial sequel "Return to Lonesome Dove" (1993) (mini), but died before production began on the official sequel, "Streets of Laredo" (1995) (mini). He was replaced by Sam Shepard, who had directed him in Silent Tongue (1994). Tommy Lee Jones was replaced in "Streets of Laredo" by James Garner, with whom he appeared in Space Cowboys (2000). Danny Glover was replaced in the prequel "Comanche Moon" (2008) (mini) by Keith Robinson, with whom he appeared in Dreamgirls (2006). The set for Ogalalla, Nebraska, was originally a set built for Silverado (1985), which also starred Danny Glover. For authenticity the producers decided to use real ranch horses in the movie. When the effect of "bullets" hit below Gus' horse, the response was genuine and Duvall was actually bucked off. Because it lent itself to the authenticity everyone desired, the cameras continued rolling and the scene was kept in the final cut. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego Date: 22 Jan 08 - 12:48 PM I suppose my weakness is for a well-developed character, if I have to choose an overriding impression in film. We see so little of it, especially on the big screen. "Lonesome Dove," which I still rate as among the best of all western films I have experienced, excels in this. I found myself disturbed by Gus's death, and by his choices in life. I found myself thoroughly disliking Woodrow, though the character was riveting for its own reasons, not the least of which was Tommy Lee Jones' stoic and very believable performance. I have "known" these people in real life in some way. I may have disliked or been disappointed by them, but I still remember them. I have known, in my own cattle ranch upbringing, the ironic humor and stoic behavior, sometimes unfathomable, of modern counterparts to these characters. McMurtry obviously knew them as well. I frankly don't give a damn what the author's personal demons or beliefs may be. I like this stuff for the same reason many conductors still like Wagner, though they loathe the composer. It's the music, dammit! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jan 08 - 12:57 PM The "music", unquestionably, is great. I'd rather that Gus had woken up at some point, realized "I am doing myself no favors following Woodrow around to his next mistake. I can do better than this." and had gone back to the woman that loved him and thereby saved what was left of his own life and potential. He could have done it. He was capable of turning his life around. Woodrow wasn't. I hate seeing people who are capable of rising above their own foolishness fail to do it. The one great foe anyone faces in life is their own foolishness. I'd rather see them conquer it than be conquered BY it. It's the central drama of human existence. It's the greatest challenge of our lives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Wesley S Date: 22 Jan 08 - 01:03 PM I think that Gus's overriding drive was toward the next great "adventure". Even if that adventure was a stunning failure it was still to be sought out and enjoyed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jan 08 - 01:13 PM Yes, so it seems. ;-) Perhaps Gus and Woodrow were really just rambunctious boys at heart who never quite grew up...despite their mastery of the manly arts of shooting, roping, fighting, and riding. Women know better. I can say that with no reservations, despite the fact that I am not a woman. Without women to keep it on track the whole human world as we know it would have gone to hell and destruction a long time ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Wesley S Date: 22 Jan 08 - 01:21 PM "despite their mastery of the manly arts of shooting, roping, fighting, and riding." Those manly arts only require good eye-hand coordination. No maturity or smarts needed to master those. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jan 08 - 03:28 PM True enough. ;-) Now then there's Blue Duck...a man who spent his entire adult life indiscriminately raping, murdering, burning, looting, killing, torturing....he was the ultimate example of a wasted life that you could possibly find. Yet, he was obviously quite proud of himself. Such is the misplaced pride of the heartless warrior, a person whose death is greeted with joy and celebration by virtually everyone he has ever known, because he never did one good thing for anyone in his whole life. But it all makes for a great story, right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Wesley S Date: 22 Jan 08 - 03:30 PM Songs about sinners are far more interesting than songs about saints. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jan 08 - 03:47 PM Yes, you could say that....but it's not necessarily so. I suggest you read Mark Twain's biography of Joan of Arc (and you'll find plenty of scoundrels in that story to add excitement...) or read a biography of Mahatma Gandhi....or one of Buddha...or of Lao-Tse...or of Jesus...or of other great leaders who selflessly dedicated their lives to help the society they were in and confront and defeat the corruption and oppression around them. While those stories may be a rather different form of entertainment from the standard "adventure" story with its heros and villains...they are in fact stories of far greater significance for humanity in every way and they make for very compelling reading. Just as moving and powerful as "Lonesome Dove"...but fundamentally different. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Wesley S Date: 22 Jan 08 - 04:06 PM I find it interesting what Larry McMurtry has to say about Lonesome Dove in the introduction he wrote in 2000 for a reprinting of the book he wrote in 1985. He essentially calls it an albatross around his neck. He compares it to Henry James being "pestered" about "Daisy Miller" and that Bing Crosby hated singing "White Christmas". He says that : "Artists have sometimes found to their bafflement that they have more or less been trapped by the unexpected and unrelenting popularity of a work to which they themselves had initially attached little importance. In my case the culprit is Lonesome Dove which now seems as remote from me as the Arthuriad or the Matter of Troy – but which blooms eternally – a living Myth-Flower to it's readers or watchers" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jan 08 - 04:13 PM Ha! ;-) That is ironical, Wesley...but it's what tends to happen more often than not with writers and singers. Conan Doyle also got pretty fed up with Sherlock Holmes and tried eventually to kill him off, but enraged fans pressured him into bringing the great sleuth back into print. In the case of "Joan of Arc", Mark Twain himself considered it to be far and away his favorite and most important book out of all the books that he had written...but he published it under an assumed name. He wanted it to be received strictly on its own merits, not as a "Mark Twain novel". That's how important the book was to him. (It would have, of course, sold much better had he published it openly under his very well-known name.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Wesley S Date: 22 Jan 08 - 04:22 PM I would guess that by the time Twain released Joan of Arc that he had no money worries at all. By the way - I've heard that visitors to McMurtrys book store in Archer City Texas can find him working there and stocking the shelves from time to time. But we WON'T talk about his work or sign his books for customers. He's said to be a bit of a grump. But with the money he's made I guess he qualifies as an "eccentric". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jan 08 - 04:28 PM Of course he had no money worries at that time, but that's hardly the point. The point is, he wanted the book to be seen entirely on its own merit, because it was quite a different matter from his other books. He spent 12 years researching Joan of Arc's life, and writing the book. He said that he needed no research at all to write any of his other books, that he simply wrote them off the top of his head. He regarded "Joan of Arc" as more important than all the others put together. I think most people would be quite surprised to know that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Wesley S Date: 22 Jan 08 - 04:31 PM Here's a link to McMurtry's bookstore called Booked Up I unterstand that the store takes up several buildings. If you find a nice book in building 3 you still have to pay for it in building 1. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jan 08 - 06:22 PM Wow. Quite the place for a lover of books... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Uncle Phil Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:24 AM Gus and Call are fictional characters and changing their lives for the better probably isn't an option for them. But if it were an option I can't see why Gus shelving dry goods with Clara in Austin would be better life than the one McMurtry wrote for him. Obviously opinions vary on that topic. The books, in addition to being ripping good yarns, seem more descriptive than philosophical to me. They provide a wealth of detail about how people might have acted and felt through that part of Texas history, but it's up to the reader to sort out what it all means. That's not to say there aren't recurring themes. One that sings to me is his characters' discomfort with the future as it replaces the Texas they know, which he describes in the Lonesome Dove and Thalia novels. I think about that a lot as Dallas engulfs our small town, and I drive to work past Walmarts and McDonalds where I used to drive past horses and cows. - Phil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Jan 08 - 11:29 AM Yeah, that's a recurrent theme in people's lives everywhere. Each succeeding generation experiences considerable discomfort with the future as it replaces the land they once knew. God knows, what I've seen happen to Toronto in the past 50 years is pretty horrifying...and I hate to think what will happen in the next few decades. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Wesley S Date: 29 Jan 08 - 04:57 PM I've just seen that McMurtrys book "Boone's Lick" is in production with Barry Levinson directing, Tom Hanks producing and starring along with Julianne Moore. That's an interesting combination. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Uncle Phil Date: 07 Feb 08 - 01:26 AM I got started re-reading the Lonesome Dove books in chronological order. I finished Deadman's Walk and I'm moving on to Comanche Moon. Deadman's Walk was my least favorite of the four books and reading again reminded me why. Gus and Call are the main characters, but they don't drive the events in the story. If I wasn't already interested in them from the other books I'd probably wonder why McMurtry keeps talking about them. Other random thoughts from reading Deadman's Walk… Neither Gus or Call reminds me of anyone I know, but I know people act like Gus sometimes and like Call at other times. I wonder if McMurtry considered them two sides of one personality, especially since we know they go on to share command in the next two books. I remembered the book as being split about half and half between the trip out to New Mexico and the trip back to Texas. I was surprised to find that the trip back was a short epilogue. I guess I remembered it as longer because there are some extremely vivid, unforgettable images in those pages. I had also forgotten that Gus and Call start out as a couple homeless street kids in Austin. Sounds like they've some first-class talent lined up for Boone's Lick. Should be a good movie. - Phil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Wesley S Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:31 AM I was at the store the other day and I see that "Lonesome Dove" the TV miniseries has been re-released in a wide screen edition. It sounds like it was filmed that way in the first place. And now it's finally seen the light of day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: kendall Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:31 PM I didn't care for the way Blue Duck died. He chose his way out. I'd rather have seen Gus or Call shoot him down like the dog he was. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:40 PM Blue Duck was not an easy man to shoot down. Anyway, in real life things don't usually go that neatly. Pancho Villa died, for instance, in a tawdry street assassination, shot up in his car, and he couldn't even come up with any noble dying words. He said, "It can't end like this. Tell them I said something." What a sad end for a man who had lived life to its dramatic fullness prior to that sudden and totally unexpected ending. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Den Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:32 AM You must be a romantic at heart LH. I'm coming late to this thread but I've enjoyed reading it none-the-less. I only ever read Lonesome Dove after I watched the mini series. I thought like others here that the mini series was probably the best movie of its genre ever. I enjoyed the book too and whoever wrote the screen play remained extremely faithful to the book. In terms of Gus returning to Clare and settling down to a happily ever after. That was never going to happen. Gus had become to settled in his ways over they years. They were apart for too long and had become very different people to the young courting couple they were. How long to you think Clare would have tolerated Gus's penchant for drinking whiskey and playing cards. He mentions these pursuits as some of his favourite things to do in a conversation with Laurie. In the end it was just a run of bad luck that lead to Gus's demise. One of my favourite lines from the movie happens as Gus strolls into the Dry Bean and tries to get everyone interested in a game of cards. He turns to Wanz and says, "put away that rag Wanz the people who come in here wouldn't notice if there was a dead skunk on that table much less a few crumbs." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Den Date: 03 Sep 08 - 12:34 PM You can download Lonesome Dove and read it here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Peter T. Date: 03 Sep 08 - 12:39 PM It's an American male-bonding story, it had to end that way: women are civilization, a snare and a delusion, they destroy the single-minded integrity of the rugged male -- haven't you heard? It was in all the papers, movies, novels, teacosyies......... yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:17 PM Yes, Den, I am a romantic. I always was. I think that women usually have their feet much more firmly planted in reality, and I like and respect them for it. I think that the men who go haring off into the wilds like Gus and Call and engaging in the male bonding escapades that Peter alludes to are fools. However, if it makes them happy, then who am I to say that they shouldn't do it? ;-) (and it gives us great adventure stories too) I think, frankly, that they're just afraid of taking on real responsibility...and I can understand why they would be. It's a very scary business settling down to the domestic responsibilities of attending to a wife, a family, a home, and all that goes with it...and it lasts your whole life. Now, taking on a bunch of Indians or bandits is scary too...but it doesn't usually last too long at all, and you can convince yourself that you're earning your rugged male laurels while you do it, and you can boast to your buddies about your heroics afterward...if you survive. And if you don't? Well, the dead feel no pain, right? Yup. I can understand where all that male bonding crap comes from. It's just avoidance of far more challenging and longlasting situations, that's all. It's an attempt to remain in childhood. Gus and Call were boys who never grew up, even if they were very good at killing people. Call never could have grown up. He was emotionally incapable of it. Now, Gus...he could have. He had the emotional depth and the imagination to be able to grow up any time he decided to. That's why I find Gus's fate particularly tragic. His run of bad luck was bound to come some time. He frittered his time away on trivialities until his clock ran out. There are a great many men who do that. I'll say this, though. Gus was a hell of a likeable guy. Anyone would enjoy having him around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Den Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:24 PM I know Peter, I get it but its a great story none-the-less. I think Gus and Call are a little more complex than we are giving them credit for LH. After all Gus was married twice before and I think that Call was always just awkward around women. I'm not sure that it is a maturity thing. I agree with you I think that Gus is a real character and I think that Duvall played him superbly. I remember an interview with Duvall and he talked about researching his part for Gus. He claims he talked to crotchity old Texas ranch hands and guys who could remember guys who did some rangering. I think that Gus may have been a bit like many of us, Laurie would have taken him for a husband but he wanted what he couldn't have. I think that Clare knew that too and at the end of the day she didn't really want him because deep down she knew he would never be able to settle him down. I grew up in Ireland and I knew men who were like Gus and Call, characters and maybe a little awkward around the womenfolk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: olddude Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:04 PM Little Hawk but the world is full of people like that, the brilliance is his portrayal of those folks don't you think? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:17 PM Yes, his portrayal of the characters in Lonesome Dove is extremely good. However, there is one writer of westerns who I think is even better: Elmore Leonard. He has a somewhat different style from McMurtry. I don't think anyone can beat Elmore Leonard at writing a totally believable western adventure tale. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: olddude Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:24 PM Leonard I don't believe I read any of his, I will have to check it out |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Peter T. Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:55 PM Hombre, yes? yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Riginslinger Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:19 PM So I was researching a piece on Ken Kesey a few years back, and discovered that he and McMurtry were in classes together at Stanford--Wallace Stegner's classes, I think. And there was some written communication between McMurtry and somebody in Oregon about the legacy of Neal Cassidy. McMurtry made the comment that Neal Cassidy was--paraphrasing--"an uneducated dozer driver, and he didn't want to get involved in something like that." Not realizing that you don't "drive" a dozer, I suspect McMurtry would make an ideal Obama voter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:24 AM Elmore Leonard has written a series of superb westerns. Among them: Hombre The Law at Randado Cuba Libre (a sort of Caribbean western, you might say, set in Cuba during the Spanish-American War period) Forty Lashes Less One Three-Ten to Yuma Valdez is Coming They're all so good that you wish he'd written another 50 books along the same lines. I just don't think it's possible to write a western tale better than he does it. Here's a website for some info: http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/l/elmore-leonard/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:30 AM "3:10 to Yuma," recently made into a movie. I think for the second time. But isn't Louis L'Amour recognized as the master of this genre? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:42 AM L'Amour is very good, no doubt, and he's also very prolific. I find Leonard's stories much realer, though. L'Amour is a little too predictable in how he casts heroes and villains, and in how he sets up the dramatic action in a story. I always get the feeling with L'Amour that I'm reading an entertaining story which I can't forget IS just a story while I'm reading it. It seems mythological in a sense. But I get the feeling with Leonard that I'm actually there. He totally convinces me. I would give L'Amour a very solid three out of four stars, in other words on his westerns, but I'd give Leonard the whole four stars. Of L'Amour's books, though, I think that "Jubal Sackett" is absolutely outstanding. It's a great adventure story. So that one I give four stars. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Den Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:44 AM I really like Cormac McCarthy's the border trilogy. Mind you the books take place at the latter part of the 19th century early 2oth but they are great stories if a bit tragic. His dialogue is wonderful and boy does he know horses. LH I'm going to give Leonard a shot (pardon the pun). I do however think that McMurtry will take some beating. Along with the tragedy there was some great humour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:24 AM It's funny about Westerns. I like watching the movies, but could never get motivated by the books. It always seemed to me like there was something missing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:58 PM Sooooo...are you, like, one of them visual types? Know'm sayin'? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Den Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:28 PM Riginslinger, maybe you're not reading the more descriptive authors. Some guys can really put you in the place and time where you can almost smell the dust and cowpies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Peter T. Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:47 PM While we are on this subject, it is a mystery to me why so many people love the film "Rio Bravo" -- I mean it is fun, but you would think it was Shakespeare the way people go on about it. Meanwhile, the worst worst Western novel ever is James Fenimore Cooper's the Prairie. Everything about it the critical theoreticians and historians say about it is wrong: it is insanely boring, and ridiculous. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:53 PM Rio Bravo was, in my opinion, a darned good comic book....and a not very good movie. I had the comic when I was a kid. Finally saw the movie about 20 years later, and was quite disappointed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:28 PM "Riginslinger, maybe you're not reading the more descriptive authors. Some guys can really put you in the place and time where you can almost smell the dust and cowpies." Maybe, but after thinking about it, I'm not sure. Some books really grab the reader, but I don't think I've ever had a western do that. I'm probably not the most sophisticated reader, and have to be entertained on each individual page. I get bored turning pages just to see how things turn out. That's not a critizism of western as much as thrillers, like Tom Clancy or Vince Flynn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:54 PM "have to be entertained on each individual page" Okay, but what entertains you? Do you find character development entertaining, for instance? Or does it have to be action? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Sep 08 - 07:02 PM Mostly, I think, it has to be something to do with language. I'm not a very fast reader, but when I finish a book, I know it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM Ah. Then you should love Elmore Leonard. Very good dialogue in his books, and sometimes tinged with a good deal of wry humor here and there. I highly recommend "Forty Lashes Less One" for that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Leadfingers Date: 05 Sep 08 - 12:24 PM 100 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:22 PM Yeah, I do like Elmore Leonard, but I think I've only read on western of his. The other books were different kinds of things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:34 AM He wrote a number of westerns in the early part of his career. Then he shifted into other types of books...mostly crime thrillers set in modern times. They're all very well written. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series From: GUEST,John LaPrelle Date: 07 Sep 08 - 01:56 AM It's hard for me to stay away from this thread. Most of my buddies are academic types and, like Mudcatters, find this stuff too bloody, too anti-multi-cultural, and too testosterone-filled for their taste. One comment on "Rio Bravo." It is at the top of my favorite Movie list. That is based on my experience of seeing it when I was 12 years old, however. I still like it, but it is the complete opposite from "Lonesome Dove." "Rio Bravo" is about using a huge budget and way too many big screen giants (and giant egos) and still producing a moving, cohesive work. Dean Martin? Ricky Nelson? ... the list goes on and on and all these people had to play second fiddle to John Wayne. About Elmore Leonard... I like "The Law at Randado" and "Valdez is Coming" the best of his westerns. Just to try to add a little. If you guys like Leonard's westerns you might continue the "Valdez" theme with "The Valdez Horses" by Lee Floren. I have had a lot of luck recommending that to luke-warm western readers, but it might not be too late for you guys. The rest of Floren's work doesn't seem as good to me. If you are so transgressive that you would recommend a western to an adolescent, you might try L'Amour's "Down the Long Hills" for boys. It is filled with good old values of honor and responsibility and kids find it really exciting. |
