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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: The Borchester Echo Date: 25 Jan 08 - 01:31 PM I could imagine an unknown Sandy Denny startling an audience but I can't imagine the Unthank sisters achieving that Sandy Denny certainly startled audiences 40 years ago. Her clones (and I speak as one) did not. I first encountered the Unthanks (and Jackie Oates for that matter) in the Bedford @ Sidmouth lunchtime sessions at around the turn of the millenium. I think you might reasonably describe this as a "folk club setting". Most observers then had no doubt that all three (and others) would be "stars" in due course. Personally, I don't think either Winterset album does justice to any of the performers. They are far, far better live, On the other hand, Jackie Oates' solo CD is a stunner. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 08 - 01:18 PM (this guy was somewhat good) |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Jon Date: 25 Jan 08 - 01:15 PM How can a band be nominated for major British folk awards, make albums that sell in great numbers and attract sell out audiences up and down the country, if the band are adequate at best? It worries me... Perhaps tastes have changed or perhaps it is marketing. Personally, if I was say this time going back to a time when I was involved in some way with a folk club that booked artists and had floor spots, I can't have imagined the club wanting to pay "star rates" for them. Floor wise, I could imagine an unknown Sandy Denny startling an audience but I can't imagine the Unthank sisters achieving that. (Never had any that I might think are famous names in this situation but the best I can spring to mind on an odd night I MC'd and called from the floor, I'm pretty sure was the Joe Kerins there has been a recent memorial thread on here) |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Gene Burton Date: 25 Jan 08 - 12:31 PM "How can a band be nominated for major British folk awards, make albums that sell in great numbers and attract sell out audiences up and down the country, if the band are adequate at best?" Fair point to a degree...although to take that line to it's logical conclusion, no act on the UK folk scene is anywhere near as talented as James Blunt, or the Sugababes. Ultimately, whether music is good or not is determined by whether it's good or not, not by "the market". Whether it makes the artist rich, now, that's entirely a different question, resolved by an entirely different criteria. Gene. (Who holds no brief for anyone). |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Allan Date: 25 Jan 08 - 12:28 PM Okay, okay, enough already. Kate, I couldn't really care less what people think of this band or any band or any number of things. The reason I continue with this is that I find it an injustice to be allowed to make statements like 'they're shite' or 'they're adequate at best'. 'I don't like this band at all' is a far better and acceptable way to express an opinion. Don't you agree? Charlotte, my Robert Wyatt remark was out of line. Apologies. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Les in Chorlton Date: 25 Jan 08 - 12:18 PM This thread reminds me of record reviews where what the music actually sounds like is never described or discussed. Consensus seems to be they are more than a bit good but some of you don't like 'em. Fair enough then. Now cloths, dress codes, style ......... .... excuse me you collective people of the folk gathering, cast you minds back to the clubs, concerts and festivals you have attended and decide if what we all have been wearing in our collective folk gear puts us in any kind of position to comment at all in what people wear. And don't give me that "I just wear jeans and an understated T-Shirt". I have seen you,I have committed serious sartorial errors myself and I bet most of the critics above have done so too. But never again! Now, off to Cuba tomorrow, where are my Che T-shirt, Fidel Beret, Salsa pumps and camouflage net. I can't find me camouflage net! |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice Date: 25 Jan 08 - 12:10 PM How can I say anymore when that is all it is? But of course you'd take someone else's word who likes them over me, who doesn't, makes sense to me. God him/herself could love them to bits, it won't change my opinion in anyway, and I am familiar, as one should with a subject, with EMI's involvement and the "tireless work" of the group's management...oh yes and before you ask, I am familiar with Robert Wyatt and his distinguished musical history. Soft Machine and Matching Mole were two of the bands I was raised listening to,me Dad has great taste in music.*LOL* Ta ta sunshine... Charlotte :-) |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,kate Date: 25 Jan 08 - 12:07 PM Why should we take anyone's word for it? Everyone is entitled to make their own mind up. And not everyone thinks they're anything special. Just accept it. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Allan Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:57 AM How can a band be nominated for major British folk awards, make albums that sell in great numbers and attract sell out audiences up and down the country, if the band are adequate at best? Face it MCA, you don't like them, fine but don't preach to us about what is adequate. It's the worst sort of criticism, which comes over as juvenile. Can I also point out that EMI came on board AFTER the band made The Bairns, AFTER the band's own management worked tirelessly on all the publicity material, AFTER they were asked to play the main stage at Cambridge etc etc. EMI are purely there to handle the distribution. the band maintain artistic control. Robert Wyatt told me personally that he thinks they are, quote, 'Wonderful'. I would rather take his word for it than yours. Allan |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:06 AM "there's nothing wrong with frilly dresses, for heaven's sake." The perfect example of style over substance...bugger what these women are wearing, it's not important..you could dress them up in the most chic of clothing and funnel all of EMI's publicity monies into this group. the music etc is still only adequate at best. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Meggly Date: 25 Jan 08 - 09:11 AM Been done already - sorry!! (Black Annis do a morris dance with a bearded woman, in lurid purple swimsuit and snorkel). Da*n it! I'm so unoriginal. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Meggly Date: 25 Jan 08 - 09:10 AM Deary me, deary me, the point I'm making is that I think that style and content are often deliciously entwined (apart from pony-tales which just get entwined with your scarf or heavy machinery). Actually the real point I was making is that people seem to be using "Frilly Dresses" as short-hand for god-awfulness. And I would like to see such a vitriolic thread about a male artist; maybe I should start one about why Jon Boden always seems to wear the same tie. Is it because he's only got one tie, he likes pink or a fundamental indication of the evil hand of marketing ("No you can't change your tie, your female demographic likes pink")? (I like Bellowhead by the way). |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Folkiedave Date: 25 Jan 08 - 08:55 AM Let me emphasise again if we are going down the frilly dresses argument that in a lot of the pictures on the website two wear frilly dresses and two don't. So it's just round spherical objects isn't it - but then don't let the facts spoil a good story. or maybe a swimsuit and snorkle Been done already - sorry!! (Black Annis do a morris dance with a bearded woman, in lurid purple swimsuit and snorkel). Surprised it isn't more well-known............... Yes, doctor I'm coming...... |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,dearie me Date: 25 Jan 08 - 08:18 AM there's nothing wrong with frilly dresses, for heaven's sake. The point that people are making is that they think the Unthank's success may be a case of style over content. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Meggly Date: 25 Jan 08 - 06:11 AM What's wrong with frilly dresses? I like frilly dresses. In fact, if I were a folk singer I'd wear frilly dresses, or possibly a pencil skirt, 6 inch healed patent leather shoes & a twin-set, or maybe a swimsuit and snorkle; & d**n those who'd stop me, by Jove. People do buy books by the cover (well I'm a sucker for a nicely designed print) and, just as the cover of a book is supposed to be a representation of the contents, giving you an idea of whether you'll like what lies with-in, surely the Unthank's music and sense of style come from the same place, their creativity, rather than their style being informed by their marketing team. Or maybe they just like frilly dresses. At least they've made a sartorial effort; many's the time I've wished I could cut the pony tale off an aging singer-songwriter and replaced his Steeleye Span tee-shirt with a nice-shirt-and-tank-top combo. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: PoppaGator Date: 24 Jan 08 - 03:06 PM After perusing this thread for a couple of days, I watched a few of those YouTube snippets at home this morning and have another thought or two to offer. Now, I'm no expert on this kind of British folk music. My overall impression of the group is "OK, but not terribly impressive," but then again I wouldn't know the difference between basic competance and true excellence in this particular field. What struck me was their generally unpolished and "folky" appearance. Now, those You Tube video are of such low resolution that I can't make out anyone's facial features, and therefore can't make a judgement about whether or not good looks are part of their appeal. But after reading those semi-sneering comments about "frilly dresses," I fully expected to see a slickly-packaged act like, say, "Celtic Women." Not hardly! Sure, some of them wear dresses in some of the videos, but they look to be very ordinary homey garments, in some cases ill-fitting and decidedly unflattering. Pretty innocent, I'd say... |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 24 Jan 08 - 12:47 PM There is an amazingly uninformative and waffly article on Rachel Unthank & The Winterset in today's (24.01.08) 'Independent Music' supplement (quote: " Their repertoire may be full of misery and death but these girls know how to entertain ... waffle, waffle, waffle"). Well done, Tim Cumming! ... Although I'm not persuaded to go out and buy a RU & TW album on the strength of your anodyne article. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: redsnapper Date: 24 Jan 08 - 12:18 PM I bought The Bairns a while back on a recommendation here. It is not my most played CD but nevertheless a creditable effort and definitely rooted in knowledge of the tradition. RS |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice Date: 24 Jan 08 - 11:21 AM "if you dont like them...." don't what?*LOL*...you mean this a thread for people who LIKE this particular grouping..hmmm the way I've been reading it, it seems to me there are a fair number of people who DON'T like Rachel Unthank and The Winterset as well as those who like them...as for the remark about "Self-Opinated Idiots" it didn't actually originate with me, I found the joke rather amusing and picked up the ball and ran with it...As for me and RU and The Winterest. I've heard most of The Bairns and ...adequate voices, adequate arrangemnts, but, overall, nothing special, nothing to write home about. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: oggie Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:43 AM Three points - I've not seen them live but I'm not that impressed by the YouTube clips. There's some nice ideas there but they don't persuade me to buy one of their CDs but I'll reserve judgement until I've had chance to see them. If EMI (or any other major) want to spend their money on a folk act then good luck to them, may they have enough success to persuade some more to follow suit. Some may quibble that "it's not the real thing" but gateways to the music are always needed and I'd rather the money came this way than into another X-Factor clone. Thirdly, putting your name to posts does seem to make for a more civilised discussion. Steve Ogden |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Les in Chorlton Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:27 AM Somebody might guess who they are and come to an informed conclusion. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Banjiman Date: 24 Jan 08 - 06:55 AM I'm with you Matt...what do people think is going to happen to them if they actually use their Mudcat name? What are they scared of? Paul |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: mattkeen Date: 24 Jan 08 - 06:30 AM I really am fed up with anonymous cryptic posts |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST Date: 24 Jan 08 - 05:37 AM "you won't regret spending £10 so try it" Oh i think i might |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,stupid, you are Date: 24 Jan 08 - 05:11 AM i think, MCA it was you that started it. get over yourself and stop wasting people's time who would like to discuss this band normally. I for one thought i had left the playground years ago. reading the forum today i can see i am wrong. grow up. if you dont like them, stop coming of the bloody website. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: George Papavgeris Date: 24 Jan 08 - 04:56 AM OK, Allan, smack-smack & brush-brush (or "kiss and make up" in "Bottom" parlance) :-) |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,fawn Date: 24 Jan 08 - 04:54 AM it's all about their darkest moments, that's what makes them so special. They are certainly not a kate rusby clone for anyone interested. they are fab, especially on their second CD, and live you won't regret spending £10 so try it. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice Date: 23 Jan 08 - 05:48 PM "A Forum For Self Opinionated Idiots" so......is someone going to start a thread......? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Allan Date: 23 Jan 08 - 04:04 PM I must have been Mr Angry this morning, as I appear to have made the following obvious errors: 1. Spelt anonymity in an alien language 2. Emphasised the word FOR instead of NOT (just woke up syndrome) 3. Referred to this site as Mudcap!!! 4. Remarked that this is the most negative thread I've ever read, which later in the day I realise it isn't. Most contributers have been fair. The band have always brought me joy and so some may feel my opinion is a little biased. The difference is, there are dozens of artists on the folk scene who I feel are truly awful, but I keep it to myself. Although my reaction looked like it was aimed at GUESTSparkles for the 'ordinary' comment, it wasn't really. My goat was got by the vile comment supplied by GUEST at 6.53pm yesterday. Allan |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: PoppaGator Date: 23 Jan 08 - 03:41 PM I have NO opinion about this group, and know next to nothing about the subgenre of British folk-or-maybe-it's-not-folk music. But here's my input: Someone up there among the earlier posts seemed to imply that heartfelt, soulful, expressive singing that may be less that perfectly pitched is acceptable only when practiced by "source singers," but not on the part of current-day young artists. I beg to differ! Musical expression of any kind is valid insofar as listeners hear it as meaningful ~ whatever the listener might know about the performers' age or background is completely irrelevant. (If it's OK for some dead singer to be "ragged but right," it's OK for you or me as well!) I'd also like to note that I found the explanations of the break-up very interesting and appropriate. Enough information, but not too much, and absolutely no self-justiying posturing and no finger-pointing. Whatever their merits as musicians, these young women all seem to know how to behave as human beings. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Gene Burton Date: 23 Jan 08 - 03:31 PM Always a pleasure, Moley, always a pleasure. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice Date: 23 Jan 08 - 03:09 PM Thanks for the input Gene, much appreciated *LOL* (I knew I couldn't say that with a straight face) |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Gene Burton Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:39 PM "A Forum For Self Opinionated Idiots" I think that'd make a GREAT banner headline for the Mudcat homepage! LOL |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Pop Bottle Date: 23 Jan 08 - 11:12 AM Arrived new to this forum, because I was trying to find out about Belinda O'Hooley's departure -- whichever way you look at it, a great pity for those who loved and admired The Bairns. I appreciate that Mudcat is principally for dyed-in-the-mud, stick-in-the-wool folk enthusiasts, and not for Americana-loving, Cambridge-going jessies like me, but for what it's worth, I'd say the Unthanks on The Bairns can't be accused of failing to take English roots music in new directions, and performing it passionately, while being honest in their commitment to its origins. Their musicianship and singing is a different question - I happen to think they are decent singers with strong, distinctive voices (especially Rachel), which for me is more important than absolute tunefulness. But even if you don't like their voices and don't like their sound, the music is unquestionably strong and committed and original. Anyone who reckons it is "easy-listening" or "winsome" inhabits a different universe from me. It will be a great shame if they lose direction from losing Belinda, but for The Bairns at least, they deserve all the plaudits they get. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: nutty Date: 23 Jan 08 - 09:38 AM Perhaps I do, Twick BUT - point 1 on your list, well covers what I was meaning. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: evansakes Date: 23 Jan 08 - 09:25 AM Nutty...maybe you mean apprenticeship? On the other hand.... :-) Probation.... n. 1. A process or period in which a person's fitness, as for work or membership in a social group, is tested. 2. a. Law The act of suspending the sentence of a person convicted of a criminal offense and granting that person provisional freedom on the promise of good behavior. 2. b. A discharge for a person from commitment as an insane person on condition of continued sanity and of being recommitted upon the reappearance of insanity. 3. A trial period in which a student is given time to try to redeem failing grades or bad conduct. 4. The status of a person on probation. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: nutty Date: 23 Jan 08 - 09:14 AM Whatever your opinion of the Unthank girls - (some will like them - some not) You have to accept that , young as they are, they have already contributed a huge amount to folk music. Like Kate Rusby, they were raised in the tradition, both with folk song and dance and I for one admire them for trying to bring something new and fresh to the folk scene. These are not young upstarts but two girls who have served an extremely long probation and I wish them lots of success. If folk music is to keep on growing we need youngsters like these. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: George Papavgeris Date: 23 Jan 08 - 08:55 AM Ah, OK - I get it. Hmm, dunno - we nearly put something together with Les and Sue, then it didn't work out. Should be passing that way in September, I think. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Georgiansilver Date: 23 Jan 08 - 07:33 AM Hi George...My comment was aimed at a few people on this thread rather than one guest. Allan was talking about the negativity on the thread and that is what I was responding to. Best wishes, Mike. PS When will we be seeing you at Gainsborough again? |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: George Papavgeris Date: 23 Jan 08 - 07:17 AM Alan, Mike, fair's fair: GUEST, Sparkles only said that he/she found the singing ordinary. Personal view. Full stop. Now, everyone is entitled to one of those, surely. Without needing to be told to wash their ears, just for having the temerity to voice an opinion. Let's put the baseball bats away, now... :-) |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Banjiman Date: 23 Jan 08 - 07:05 AM Guest Alan Wilkinson......let's not get confused here.....I agree with you about hiding behind "guest" postings .....but I still don't think RU & The Winterset are that special....I also accept that this might be my own poor taste, as I posted above. Good luck to them though, I don't pretend to be an authority....I just have a view and I'm absolutely not bitter! Paul |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Georgiansilver Date: 23 Jan 08 - 06:52 AM Well said Allan..but what you must accept is that some people on here consider themselves to be great authorities on what is 'good' music and what isn't....they just can't accept that people like us can have our personal likes and dislikes....they just have to be right and will say anything to try to prove their point. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: mattkeen Date: 23 Jan 08 - 06:44 AM I agree with you Allan |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST Date: 23 Jan 08 - 06:43 AM Anyone who finds Becky Unthank's voice 'ordinary' needs to wash out their ears. This is the most negative thread I've ever read online and the guests who get a kick out of knocking a hard working group of young people, who are in this for the love of music, not FOR whatever agenda EMI has for them, should be ashamed of themselves. But they won't be, because they are just bitter twisted people. This has nothing to do with not really liking what they see and hear, it's to do with enjoying the fun of upsetting people. Mudcap has always been a forum for self opinionated idiots. ALLAN WILKINSON - DONCASTER I don't hide behind guest annonimity. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Sparkles Date: 23 Jan 08 - 05:53 AM Shows you what hype and PR from a big commercial company (with money to make) can do. Don't anyone try to tell me that the connection between that and the award is pure coincidence. I find the singing fine but ORDINARY. What's all the fuss about? |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: KeithofChester Date: 23 Jan 08 - 05:13 AM Diane wrote: "I just noticed that it's two years since I put Cruel Sister onto iTunes and had only listened back once so I played it to find out why. Yes, that's why." Cruel Sister left me more or less completely unmoved too. As a consequence it took me quite a while to heed the recommendations of both Phil Beer and Diane and give Jackie Oates a try. Eventually Phil took her with him as a guest on his solo tour last Spring, so I got to hear Jackie live and found her really good. I wasn't the only one in the audience impressed either. I can't say that what I've heard of The Bairns impressed me either. As for the BBC Radio 2 Folk Award Nomination as best folksinger, well that is about as believable as Ringo being nominated for a Brit Award for Best Vocalist! |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: John Routledge Date: 22 Jan 08 - 05:42 PM Heard The Winterset three months ago in Manchester at The Royal Northern College of Music - not as you may imagine a typical Folk Venue. Really enjoyed the performance as a one-off and even bought the "Bairns" CD. The frequent reference to "traditional" however did little to disguise the fact that the arrangements had altered the songs so much - more than I would normally be happy with. Stimulating interesting stuff nonetheless. Belinda was VERY talented and funny and sang three of her own songs very well. She seemed however very much an add-on and will no doubt find success as a more talented musically version of Victoria Wood. We knew we were taking a risk seeing them but it was a risk well worth taking. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Another Guest Date: 22 Jan 08 - 04:38 PM I did indeed read the thread Diane Easby. That is where I took the message from. Your post. After I had read it in full. I then decided to comment upon it. May I suggest you think more before you post to a thread. Any further messages I reply to will have the name of the author added thus avoiding this confusion by those who seemingly post before they think, perhaps through being in a hurry to merely try to seem clever. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: The Borchester Echo Date: 22 Jan 08 - 03:23 PM (Yet) Another Guest: why don't you read the thread? I already posted that @ 11:37 AM yesterday, way, way above. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Another Guest Date: 22 Jan 08 - 02:37 PM >>For your interest, and for balance, here is Belinda's announcement, which can be seen on her myspace. " It is with a mixture of regret and relief that I have left Rachel Unthank & the Winterset. I have enjoyed much of being a part of this band, especially the warmth and humour underlying our music – I will always have fond memories of the past few years and of the music we created and performed together both with the hugely talented Jackie Oates and more recently with equally fab Niopha Keegan. I wish Rachel, Becky & Niopha well. The decision to leave was a very difficult one, but one I am happy with. I will now be managing my own career and I am very much looking forward to a bright future in folk music – who knows what opportunities may cross my path…Maybe Bonnie Tyler will finally ask me to duet with her! Well, dreams aside, I've already started writing songs…see you soon xx"<<< May I suggest that the Winterset's remaining members learn from the modest message that Belinda has left, which contains no bitterness, no unpleasantness and no tale-telling. It is totally lacking in self-pity or angst, making no excuses, nor pointing any fingers. To say nothing is by the far best way. People may then speculate, true, but what does that matter. The people concerned are the ones who know what happened and it should rest with them. It is of no business to anyone else. Might I also take this opportunity to wish Belinda, and her former colleagues well, in whatever lies ahead for them all. |
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