Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers

Subject: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: GUEST,Sue
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 09:13 PM

I've learnt and sing a three or four songs in Scottish Gaelic (some of which I started learning while on courses up on the Hebrides), because I love them. Recently I was told by a (dutch) fiddleplayer of Irish music that I should not sing songs in Gaelic because I don't sing with the correct ornamentation and style. (She has lived up there, so I guess is familiar with these.)

I do agree that this would be the ideal, and in the past I've used any chance I've found to get help with pronunciation. However, to sing them perfectly I'd need to probably move up there and immerse in the community and singing, which is impractical for me. Should I therefore desist?

I'd be interested to know what native gaelic speakers/singers think about this, but also anyone else who wants to respond.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: maeve
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 09:34 PM

When Catherine Ann MacPhee encourages and teaches non-Gaelic speakers to learn and sing the songs, it's sufficient encouragement for me. She has, she does, and I do. Always seek for the best understanding of the language and the culture, apply your learned skills with respect, don't pretend to be something you are not- and enjoy the beauty of the music and language.

It's part of my heritage, and I value that heritage highly; yet even when I have no known genetic link to a particular heritage I would value the songs, tunes, and cultures, learn what I could, and enjoy the sharing of them.

maeve

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: jennbrooks
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 09:36 PM

Sounds to me like you ran into a bit of a folk music snob, don't you think? We have them here in Albuquerque, too, you betcha. I think the best thing to do is to nod and smile and avoid them. And pity them, and leave the room before you submit to the temptation to do them injury. And sing what you love as well as you can. Are you getting paid money for your singing? That might make a difference.

I sing Scots Gaelic with several other women here in Albuquerque. All of us sing because we love the music, and the camaraderie isn't bad, either. We had a run-in at a Celtic festival with the woman in town who sporadically teaches Gaelic, and for the sake of the peace we now call ourselves "Celtic singers" instead of "Gaelic Singers. (And smile and nod and avoid her, as well!)

My husband says I should mention that I also sing in Hebrew, French, Spanish and several Slavic languages, and I probably murder them all. When a younger, better singer, I did try to sing in styles appropriate to the music. (Now I'm happy to sing close to the tune!) My greatest fear is mispronouncing a word that is close to some word that is not polite! You choose where to sing, of course, like not out-dancing the family at a Greek wedding where you are a friend of a friend, but with good will and consideration, sing what you love, and most people who own that music will love you for it.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 09:46 PM

Ignore the naysayers, and interpret what you have learned according to what's in your heart.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 09:50 PM

The question is, do you -and jennbrooks, for that matter- understand the language(s) you are singing in? It all turns on that.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 09:51 PM

I sing in a lot of languages I don't know. Mom laughs when I do the Dalmatian songs... apparently I don't split the words where they actually split. For instance, I sing "svep ti tice isgore" when it's really "sve ptitice isgore" - I don't really hear the difference, but she does. I don't mind... I sing them anyway. As long as I'm not saying something ELSE, at least...

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 09:51 PM

Just so happens that someone posted a gorgeous song in Gaelic here:

Click the "more" link in About this video for the lyrics.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 10:07 PM

Sue, I'm not a native speaker but my parents were and I grew up hearing the language, and as I enter my senior years I am trying to learn and relearn what I should already know. I sing in English but seldom in Gaelic because I am not comfortable enough with my pronunciation. I live in Cape Breton where the language still lives among older folks but they are dying off and the Gaelic is in danger of dying off as well. However, there is renewed interest among learners and it is being taught in some schools. I think that you should sing Gaelic if you wish and encourage you to do so with a small bit of advice. Don't sing something phonetically that you don't understand the words for. If you understand the words you speak it will be much easier to add expression. I am not saying that you have to speak the language but just understand the words of the song. Sentence structure and idiom is much different in Gaelic so this may not be easy but it is a goal worthy of achieving. There is an amazing amount of Gaelic information and instruction available on line that you are perhaps already aware of. Mudcatter George Seto has a website with a lot of song information and he will no doubt respond to this thread as well.
Also I would add "correct style" is subjective and native speakers may have differing opinion on that as well.
Cum suas e! (keep it up!)
             Slainte,
                      Sandy

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Beer
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 10:17 PM

You were just given a lesson by someone who hopefully was giving positive criticism. If he/she was being gentle and kind or forceful, it still amounts to the same thing. Especially if he/she knows what they are saying. Although you may feel a bit hurt by the comment, do not give up but do exactly what you are doing. Also,get some advice here on the Mudcat, but also get other opinions, especially from strangers who love this type of music. Do not go by the opinions of your love ones or friends. Most of them would lie to you because they wouldn't want to hurt your feelings.
Best of luck.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 10:26 AM

"...that I should not sing songs in Gaelic because I don't sing with the correct ornamentation and style"

So every native singer sings these songs in exactly the same style with the same, correct, ornamentation? I think not! If they do it must be a pretty boring tradition.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Brendy
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 10:48 AM

Further to what Malcolm said (because it is handy if you understand the language), if you at least understand the song and can place yourself in it, then go for it. I have heard many Europeans sing songs in English & in Irish and not being native speakers (nor anywhere near it), but who have delivered the songs admirably.

If someone is interested enough to grapple with a song in a foreign language (no matter which language it is), and they go through the process of learning it, then more power to them.

I never pass comment on how 'native' they sound in their delivery, and am grateful to those who reciprocate when I try something in Norwegian.

B.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 01:22 PM

Take the comment as constructive criticism, not as a reason to quit. All of us can always do better, at anything.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From:
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 05:45 PM

Sue. Please do as jennbrooks suggests. - I've been a learner for 12 years and would not call myself an expert. - I would NEVER say such a thing and neither would ANY of the numerous native Gaelic speakers/singers that I know. - Please ignore the one who told you not to sing. They are not part of the encouraging Gaelic singers/speakers that I have known and met from one end of the North American continent to another. As well, any of my Scottish & Irish friends who are Gaelic speakers are always very encouraging of my feeble attempts at singing in the "true language of the Garden of Eden". Suas e! Keep it up, Sue!

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 06:25 PM

This type of folk snobbery makes me seethe.

Some folk fascists would have you limit your repertoire to songs from within a twenty mile radius of where you were born.

I grew up in a Gaelic speaking environment, competed in the local Mod as a child, and nobody I knew in these days would ever have suggested that a non-native Gaelic speaker shouldn't sing Gaelic songs.

Obviously you should know what the words mean, but that doesn't mean you need to master the language completely.

Mary Sandeman was taught how to sing in Gaelic by a friend of my mother, and she didn't do to badly at it. (Ruined her credibility when she became "Aneka" and recorded "Japanese Boy" but that's another can of worms). Point is, she became an extremely competent Gaelic singer considering she had never spoken a word of Gaelic until she was in her twenties.

Conversely, I have often sung "Okie from Muskogee" in venues in the States, and nobody ever suggested I wasn't singing it with the right accent. This may have been because they were usually helpless with laughter, but nonetheless ...

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: MuddleC
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 06:42 PM

...so how does one interpret the words when doing 'mouth-music'?
Wikipedia says >>..In puirt a beul, the rhythm and sound of the song often have more importance than the depth or even sense of the lyrics. Puirt à beul in this way resembles other song forms like scat(jazz) singing.<<<
so, scoobie-doobie-doo to you!!!


I love some of the 'puirt a beul' melodies 'mouthed' by Karen Matheson and her ilk .
Just do the song with feeling for the rhythm and sound if not sure of the meaning of the words.. many song lyrics are meaningless anyhow.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: GUEST,Sue
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 08:15 PM

Thanks so much for all your responses and encouraging comments, that's very helpful. Maybe I'm a bit over-anxious about how gaelic speakers/singers perceive those who try to speak/sing their language, perhaps because while on the music courses at Celoas on Uist I went on a couple of years ago, I did witness a bit of muttered antagonism from one or two people about Americans who'd come over for it (maybe as I'm English I wasn't targeted? not sure why not).

I've learnt a very little gaelic, enough to understand a few words. As for singing it, I would never on principle sing a song I didn't understand - do people do that??!! I only decide to learn a gaelic song (or indeed any song I learn) after hearing it and feeling something for it. And before I learn it, I find the lyrics and translation, to check thoroughly if it does feel right for me to sing it. Then I get as much help as I can with pronunciation as I learn it, before starting to sing it publicly, and continue to ask for advice if I meet a native speaker/singer. It's far more work than the English songs I sing, so I don't sing very many Gaelic ones. I'd rather learn a few as well as I can than sing loads skimpily.

I don't sing mouth music, mine tend to be long slow ones, such as Ailein duinn, mainly because I can't sing fast in any language!

Michaelr - that was an interesting link...I always wondered what happened to the Bothy Band members, especially Triona!

I find every so often something like this throws me, makes me stop and question what I'm doing (just thought of another interesting one I might start a thread on!). Which can only be good, I think.

Sue

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: GUEST,Sue
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 08:59 PM

Whoops, Ceolas that should be.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 02:57 AM

I agree with Malcolm I'm afraid; unless you understand the language you are just singing the tune - a bit like eating the crust and throwing the rest of the pie away.
The beauty of (Irish or Scots) Gaelic songs lies in the combination of the imagery of the poetry and the air and, as with any language, they only come to life in a language you are comfortable in.
Jim Carroll
PS I wonder why people have to reduce a discussion to sewer level with terms like 'folk fascist', and, as far as I have seen nobody is limiting
"your repertoire to songs from within a twenty mile radius of where you were born".

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 06:36 AM

"Just do the song with feeling for the rhythm and sound if not sure of the meaning of the words.. many song lyrics are meaningless anyhow."

Total and utter bollocks.

B.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 08:59 AM

I can sing (how well I would not care to hazard a guess) two or three songs in Gaelic. I sing them very rarely - literally once every few years, if a particular topic to which they are relevant crops up on the night, or somesuch reason. I don't feel comfortable doing it purely for 'performance' because I lack the knowledge to judge my own performance adequately.

However, as to what a Gaelic speaker may think of your efforts, I offer the following anecdote:

Romansch is the fourth language of Switzerland. It is spoken by a very small number of people in the Grisson area. Like French it has two forms of addressing You - a singular (in French 'tu') form which is used only for close friends of a similar age, close family etc. and a plural (in French 'Vous') which is also used for singular people to whom you have no close relationship such as strangers and older people. When they surveyed the language however they found that in Romansch the equivalent of the 'tu' form was used far far more than it was in French. I once asked someone why he thought this was, and he said, after a short pause for thought: I suppose when that few people speak the language, anyone else who tries to is probably going to be thought of as afriend of yours!

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: GUEST,Sue
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 02:29 PM

Brendy - I so agree with you there! to me the lyrics are primary.

Although I do believe MuddleC may be referring solely to puirt a beul songs, which were originally created purely to use as a rhythm for people to dance to (at a time when dance and instruments were forbidden), and thus consist of nonsense lyrics. But he perhaps could have made that clearer if he did.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 02:42 PM

Ask the Dutch fiddle player who says you don't have the correct ornamentation and style to sing a Gaelic song for you, so you can learn from her wisdom and experience.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 02:44 PM

Tho' not a native speaker, I do try a few songs in Irish, having learnt these from a combination of recordings, printed/published versions, lengthy and painstaking production of my own phonetic renderings based on these two elements, and questioning of native speakers about the results. As has been mentioned, it's really essential to understand both the story/situation and the individual words and how these are often "run together", as well as the characteristics of the vocal ornamentation; however, isn't it the case that in Irish singing especially, any degree of personal expressiveness/interpretation tends to be frowned upon, by those who might be considered "purists", in favour of an almost emotionless rendering of a piece? Observations please.

What really gets me is that I can make a better job of any number of Italian songs even tho' I know little about the language other than these songs and a couple of operatic arie!

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 03:16 PM

I live in Ireland but do not speak Irish, and once had the temerity to sing a few verses of The Lament of the Three Marys at a gathering of singers in a mini-Gaeltacht area of Cork (Glanmire). I had been through it translated line by line and buttressed by the few words and phrases I know, and was kindly coached by Tomás Ó Canainn, who could not have been nicer or more supportive. (It was his version on an old Na Fili album that first made me love this song.)

I got through it without major mishap and the audience (which included a lot of Irish-speakers) gave me a truly lovely reception. I had put a lot of careful work into it as well as listening to several native performers sing it, and I DID know what every word I was singing meant; but I felt apprehensive that my California/Boston/20-years-in-London-tinged accent might be so wrong as to be jarring. But the overwhelming reaction I got was positive, and the main underlying attitude seemed to be that people were happy to see singers embracing this material and helping to keep it alive. My offering was done with great respect and as much learning as I could muster, which clearly makes a difference. Vocalising a line of random-seeming syllables meaningless to the singer would diminish the song and rob it of half its value.

For the record, I have lived here for nearly 17 years and never NEVER encountered cultural snobbery from an Irish person in this matter. That seems to be reserved for outsiders -

PS: Catherine Anne MacPhee took the trouble to write out by hand the verses of a song of hers which I loved, and she doesn't know me - I sent her a letter out of the blue, asking where I might find them. What does that tell you?

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: maire-aine
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 03:24 PM

When I was a child, I attended a Catholic school that was predominantly Polish. The choir was composed of the school children, so I learned to sing the Polish hymns. I was 11 or 12 at the time, maybe.

I guess I had a very good ear for the pronunciation, because the choir director (Sister Ann Cecile, I remember her well) would make me sing it alone when she wanted the rest of the class to get it right. Never mind that I had no idea what the words meant!!!

A lot of the kids learned Polish at home, and their pronunciation was a little "loose" by her standards. I, on the other hand, didn't know anything else but what she taught us.

I still remember the Polish Christmas carols, even 50 years on.

Don't let that pompous blowhard get you down.

Regards,
Maryanne

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: MuddleC
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 05:12 PM

I was attempting, but failed miserably, to make the point that many old songs may have 'filler' verses to 'pad' out that song, or may include nonsense strings, such as fo-de-rol, dumble-dum-dooery, la-la-la.., etc. Often some word might be a mondegreen, a misheard lyric, or the same meaning in different wording. Some songs even have words mispronounced 'on purpose' in order to rhyme, or to allow the line to scan.
But, back to the Gaelic songs and non-gaelic singers... I allow them the same leeway as American singers trying to sing English songs, English people trying to sing 'country&western', and anyone who is willing to put themselves up there in order to practice the 'folk' art.
If you want to throw your teddy out of the pram because the song isn't linguistically perfect, why not keep quiet, and just think..'this rendition makes mine sound better'. and clap them for taking part.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 06:50 PM

Guest, Sue -- if you joined the Mudcat (it's free), I could send you a Personal Message, detailing what became of the members of The Bothy Band (I don't think it belongs in this thread).

Or you could start a thread asking the question.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 10:56 PM

Gaelic is one of the oldest languages on earth, but it is also fighting a battle against extinction. The sad truth is that native speakers are growing older and passing away. The survival of the language depends of people who are learners and most native speakers are now aware of this.
They are mostly thrilled that anyone shows as much interest as does Sue.
There will always be a few who differ of course, but that should not be a discouragement. However the tradition is sacred to many and that should be respected by doing our best.
The ear of a native speaker hearing a song works differently than someone used to English as well. Rhyme and meter is quite different and most traditional singing was without instruments. Today Gaelic singing style is changing and that in itself does not always sit well with native speakers.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: GUEST,RWM
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 11:46 PM

I tried learning Irish a few years back, mainly to try to avoid butchering the titles of things. Later on, my friend Tom Standeven (the piper) insisted that if you wanted to truly understand Irish music, the key to the 'nyah' was in the language. I got a chance to hear a stunning variety of recordings he had from the old singers, many of whom he knew, and I still have a deep appreciation for the old songs. BUT...

While wrestling with the notion of trying to learn to sing in Irish, I came upon the one thing that drives me to learn a song in the first place. I love stories. I gravitate to the truly old ballads etc because of the amazing depth of tales they contain, and I almost always tell at least one story whenever I perform. If I am then singing in a language that very VERY few people understand, am I not defeating my own purpose?

To me it isn't about ainging in a language I understand, but singing in one the audience understands. If you are trying to pass on a part of a culture or tradition, isn't the first rule to be sure everyone understands what you are trying to say?

Robt. Mouland

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 02:46 AM

"Just do the song with feeling for the rhythm and sound if not sure of the meaning of the words.. many song lyrics are meaningless anyhow"
Thank you for this - it is the most convincing argument I have ever heard for NOT singing in a language you don't understand.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 04:11 AM

Jim Carroll - The 'Folk Fascists' ar now , fortunately , a dying breed ! I well recall the occasion I attempted to visit a Folk Club a LONG way from home and was told at the door "You cant bring THAT in here , this is a traditional Folk Club" -Pointing at my Guitar case . And these days , there are fewer people trying to insist that the version of a Trad song that THEY sing is the only 'Correct' version .

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 08:56 AM

Seems there are lots of people who want to tell other people what to do one way or another. My advice would be to trust your own judgement not somebody else's.

As for understanding the song. Most of these were written by people in another time living very different lives. You can understand the words, you can feel emotion brought from the music and story, but how much your experience has to do with what the person writing the song was feeling is conjecture. You can only understand the song from your own cultural perspective and what & how you sing might seem completely wrong to the original source.

ETO

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 09:56 AM

That applies to songs in one's own language too, many of which are hundreds of years old (and in the case of English/French/Etc, from another country).

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 11:18 AM

>>From: Bonnie Shaljean
>>Date: 23 Jan 08 - 09:56 AM
>>
>>That applies to songs in one's own language too, many of which are
>>hundreds of years old (and in the case of English/French/Etc, from
>>another country).

Absolutely and the value of them is the feelings & meaning that they
evoke for us. Unless you're attempting to achieve some sort of
accurate historical re-enactment, the worth of any performance should,
IMHO, be judged on its own terms rather than on some arbitrary
criteria decided by third parties that only serve to stifle the
creative process.

ETO

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:58 PM

"The 'Folk Fascists' are now , fortunately , a dying breed "
Nowadays the folk facists are those who use terms like folk fascist to stifle discussion - or am I being a folk fascist?
For me 'fascists' are the people who filled the gas chambers with millions of human beings - never met a folkie who did (or wanted to do) that - yet!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 02:24 PM

"To me it isn't about singing in a language I understand, but singing in one the audience understands."

Amen, brother! To the average US audience, and probably to many listeners even on the other side of the Atlantic, a song sung in Irish/Gaelic might just as well be wordless mouth-music or "scat" or whatever.

While some purists may object, one approach that I have always enjoyed as a listener is when the performer sings a given song in both Gaelic and English. That way, I get to understand the story and absorb the meaning, and also to hear the sound of the song as orignally intended.

It takes a performer who can comfortably function as a storyteller and educator, not simply as a vocal musician. Danny O'Flaherty, originally from the Galway gaeltacht (sp?), more recently a New Orleanian, and now displaced to points west, is a native speaker of Irish who does this type of thing pretty well.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 05:34 PM

Since one-half of my ancestry arrived from Scotland last century, Stuart, to be precise, I always have had an affinity for the literature, history and music of that land, as well as of Ireland, home of my wife's County Mayo ancestors. When I sang Scots or Irish songs in the past, the best I was able to do was an approximation of a brogue or a burr, just to lend a bit of character to a given song. I never hoped to fool anyone into thinking it was more than that. I never recieved criticism for it because, I believe, people knew it was good natured and all in the spirit of the thing.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 07:44 PM

Re audiences understanding the language...I didn't do this at first, but now I make the assumption that at least a few people are either curious or will have a better experience of the song if they know something of the meaning, so I always first read out the translation of the lyrics, which are beautiful in themselves. On the other hand, when I hear a song in a language I don't know, I find plenty to enjoy in the rest of the performance.

ETO - I like what you said. A song comes alive through individual interpretation; no two people ever sing alike (tho' someone did once send me a copy of Ailein Duinn sung by an unknown, and it was an eerie almost-replica of Karen Matheson's singing of it, even down to the production of it - my thought was, why bother? why not do it your own way?).

Afterthought: if any gaelic speaker might be open to giving me feedback on my gaelic singing, that would be most welcome - let me know and I'll send you the myspace link.

Sue

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: GUEST,Seonaid
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 09:59 PM

Been muddling along with snippets of learned and assumed Gaelic from Scots and Irish sources for several decades now. I'll say, as many of you have found, that being able to connect the sense of a song with yourself and ultimately with your audience is the most important thing.
In performing or teaching, I find that people will happily sing along with repetetive choruses in a strange language (or even in "scat"!), but they get more involved with a song if they can follow the story.
My main concern in folk-singing lies in sharing the meaning and the mood, and my main audiences are English-speaking.
Though I surprised a few friends and tutors when I translated Gaelic verses into Beurla when our trio recorded several traditional songs, that decision was consistent with making the beauty accessible to other who might not otherwise find it. But I also encourage people to go on to learn more of a song's language and culture, which some of my students and fans have done.
One of my favorite teachers, Gaelic scholar Dr. James (Seumas) Duran, has been known to show people the many ways in which different Gaelic dialects would express the same phrase or idea. There are even dialect differences based on the *gender* of the speaker. So the discussion of "correct" intontation and phrasing may be much like a discussion of the "correct" recipe for stew.
Work with what you have, be honest, be open, learn, share, collect, enjoy. Expert opinions are, after all, just opinions.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Effsee
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 10:17 PM

Jim Carroll..."For me 'fascists' are the people who filled the gas chambers with millions of human beings"..actually, that was the Nazis.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 03:02 AM

'Re audiences understanding the language'
I saw the Red Army Choir at The Empire Theatre in Liverpool when I was in my teens and can still remember the amusement of a largely admiring audience as they mouthed their way parrot fashion through 'It's a long way to Tipp-e-ra-ry.
Effsee
Actually, the 'German' Nazis had considerable help from national fascists in France, Italy, Poland, Czechoslovakia and many of the other countries they conquered. The Lithuanian fascists earned themselves the nickname 'The Butchers of Belsen'.
My objection to the term 'folk fascist' lies simply in the fact that, for a group of people who share and interest in - a love even - of this music, we manage to invent some vindictive names for those who express contrary opinions to our own; this particular one, IMO, being pretty well the nastiest.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: GUEST,Marie
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 04:11 AM

Sue,

If you enjoy singing these songs then I recommend you keep at it. Tradtional singing in Gaelic be it Irish or Scottish is something that a minority of people are trying to keep alive day to day. I do alot of Irish singing and traditional singing. From word of mouth, I now have 12 children from 6-14 here whom I try to "teach"...by teaching I mean, give them songs with the Irish and English meaning, put in ornamentation and generally help them with finer details going into competitions.
Ornamentation is something that can be learned and put into any song Sue, its understanding the song and putting the story out to your audience that is the key!
I really hope you dont give up on this, enjoy it

Marie

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 12:22 PM

Yes, I've heard a recording of the Red Army Choir's "Tipperary", and it was only once I recognised the chorus that I listened again and realised the first verse, at least, was supposed to be,

"Paddy wrote a letter to his Irish Molly, O,
   Saying, 'if you don't receive it, write and let me know...."

On the other hand, thre's also a fine recording - by their tenor soloist, with vocalised support - of "Annie Laurie", which is as clear as anything.

Re. the posting by PoppaGator, that's exactly right; sing in both the original language and in the "vernacular", wherever you might be. However, this raises the issue of accurate translation or singable rendering, let alone (for Irish songs) the feature of internal assonance; but that's material for another thread. For the moment, what's better; the entire song in the original, then the "rendering" in another language; the opposite way round, i.e., translation followed by original; or, some kind of interspersing the original with translated verses?

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 01:04 PM

Sue: The Scots, more than the Irish, are very proud & protective of their first language. Not too shy about letting you know about your errors either.
You sound like a nice person and people have reacted kindly to your question here. A little too kindly even.
If you do not speak the language then where is the point in trying to sing it? Keeping in mind that "Song" is the ornamentation of the words then it's a bit like doing bike tricks before you learn to ride the bike.
There are many fine, Scottish songs which you can sing in your own accent without offending anyone.
Or, you could actually spend the time learning the language but you're not going to accomplish that on a wee holiday trip.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 01:13 PM

Should mention that for those interested and able to get to Milwaukee Wisconsin in the USA, the 6th annual Sean-Nos weekend will be February 15-17 at UWM Center for Celtic Studies and co-sponsored by Conradh na Gaeilge Craobh Curtin. Workshops and classes in Irish language, sean-nos singing and sean-nos dancing, concerts, lectures, sessions, great craic agus eile. For more info and a complete schedule go to the UWM Center for Celtic Studies website.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 01:31 PM

I have always believed that singing should be an extension of thought.
Without that aspect of it, I believe it becomes an exercise in technique.
If that is what you want - by all means, go for it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 02:16 PM

I may be wrong, but I had gotten the impression that some of the oldest/best-known/favoriate Irish traditional songs have "trditional" lyrics in both Irish and English ~ that is, an English translation of a given song may have been created so long ago, and been "folk-processed" by a bilingual community for so long, that the English-language version is very nearly as well-established in tradition as is the original Irish.

Taking a Gaelic lyric without an established translation or "variant," and coming up with an English version on one's own, would certainly present the kinds of problem/dangers that An Buachaill Caol Dubh alluded to an hour or so ago. Certainly not a job for some who does not understand the original language, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 03:57 PM

Jim lad:
The point of my singing them is because I find the language extraordinarily beautiful both to listen to and to sing. Equally, I would sing a non-gaelic Scottish song if that's what I came across and it moved me - that's my primary selection criterium - corny but true. It's a heart thang... Not sure what you mean about "too kindly" - people here have been pretty upfront as far as I can see - should they have been unkind with it, then?

Jim Carroll:
I'm interested to hear more of what you mean about singing being an extension of thought... some examples if you can?

All these perspectives are great! thank you.

Sue

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 04:20 PM

Sue: Just noticed that you joined up; I failed to take note of your new name yesterday.

Welcome! And, nice pseudonym ~ pretty daring, I'd say...

Subject: RE: Gaelic songs & non-gaelic singers
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 04:32 PM

If Camsco doesn't stock Allan Macdonald's CD/booklet "Dastirum", maybe they ought to - it's his argument for reinterpreting piobaireachd as an evolution of Gaelic song. But he isn't arguing you shouldn't play it if you don't know Gaelic (he is far too tolerant and welcoming a person for that), simply saying what a knowledge of Gaelic song adds to the music.