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Diamonds and Rust

Related threads:
Lyr Add: All the Weary Mothers of the Earth (Baez) (3)
Chord Req: Outside the Nashville City Limits (Baez (8)
Lyr ADD: Who Murdered the Minutes (Treece) (15)
Lyr Req: Be Not Too Hard (from Joan Baez) (14)
Lyr Req: Honest Lullaby (Joan Baez) (3) (closed)
Chords Req: Prison Trilogy (Joan Baez) (12)
Lyr/TAB req: Honest Lullaby (Joan Baez) (3)
Lyr/Tune/Chords Req: Prison Trilogy (Joan Baez) (15)
Lyr Req: Diamonds & Rust (Joan Baez) (16)
Baez duet: Out in the Wild World, Kitty (8)
Joan Baez' songs (10)


GUEST,Jim 21 Jan 08 - 05:28 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jan 08 - 06:06 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jan 08 - 06:11 PM
PoppaGator 21 Jan 08 - 06:15 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jan 08 - 06:24 PM
PoppaGator 21 Jan 08 - 07:01 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jan 08 - 07:29 PM
Amos 21 Jan 08 - 08:09 PM
catspaw49 21 Jan 08 - 09:36 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 21 Jan 08 - 10:23 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jan 08 - 10:41 PM
Amos 21 Jan 08 - 10:59 PM
katlaughing 22 Jan 08 - 12:43 AM
Joe Offer 22 Jan 08 - 03:37 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Jan 08 - 06:32 AM
Amos 22 Jan 08 - 09:40 AM
Banjiman 22 Jan 08 - 09:45 AM
bobad 22 Jan 08 - 10:03 AM
KeithofChester 22 Jan 08 - 10:10 AM
Banjiman 22 Jan 08 - 10:29 AM
Little Hawk 22 Jan 08 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,Russ 22 Jan 08 - 05:13 PM
Little Hawk 22 Jan 08 - 06:25 PM
katlaughing 22 Jan 08 - 06:45 PM
GUEST 22 Jan 08 - 06:56 PM
bobad 22 Jan 08 - 07:07 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Jan 08 - 08:22 AM
John Hardly 23 Jan 08 - 08:48 AM
Lowden Jameswright 23 Jan 08 - 08:50 AM
KeithofChester 23 Jan 08 - 09:02 AM
PoppaGator 23 Jan 08 - 10:45 AM
Little Hawk 23 Jan 08 - 11:03 AM
Little Hawk 23 Jan 08 - 11:14 AM
KeithofChester 23 Jan 08 - 11:30 AM
Slag 23 Jan 08 - 04:55 PM
Little Hawk 23 Jan 08 - 06:07 PM
Amos 23 Jan 08 - 07:49 PM
Slag 23 Jan 08 - 09:46 PM
Little Hawk 23 Jan 08 - 10:21 PM
KeithofChester 24 Jan 08 - 03:27 AM
Metchosin 24 Jan 08 - 04:15 AM
KeithofChester 24 Jan 08 - 07:15 AM
Banjiman 24 Jan 08 - 07:21 AM
catspaw49 24 Jan 08 - 07:41 AM
Metchosin 24 Jan 08 - 11:52 PM
katlaughing 25 Jan 08 - 12:03 AM
Slag 25 Jan 08 - 08:08 PM
reynard 29 Jun 11 - 09:32 AM
reynard 29 Jun 11 - 09:42 AM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 11 - 12:01 PM
meself 29 Jun 11 - 01:39 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jun 11 - 08:36 PM
catspaw49 29 Jun 11 - 08:39 PM
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Subject: Diamonds and Rust
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 05:28 PM

I've always liked this song by Joan Baez and hadn't thought about it for years till someone played it at an open stage on Sunday. Listening to the words, I thought,"Why would anyone buy cufflinks for Bob Dylan?" This seems like the definition of an inappropriate gift. I wonder if he ever wore them. I can't imagine him having a shirt with french cuffs in those days.

I know his name isn't mentioned in the song, so maybe I've always been making a basic assumption as to who it was about.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 06:06 PM

If you look at Bob around the years '65-'66, he was affecting a mode sort of style which cufflinks might have gone very well with. Check out the album cover of "Bringing It All Back Home" for an example of the general look I am speaking of, and check out a lot of pictures taken of him in 65-66. He was not doing the rustic look in work shirts and jeans then, not doing the acoustic blues-man look or the cowboy-hobo look or the serious ascetic working-class look (like in '63), he was doing more of an uptown rocker look, almost like a young Byron gone electric....fancy shirts in bright colors and patterns, groovy Beatle boots, scarves, stylish black leather jackets...cufflinks would have been perfect on him then.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 06:11 PM

The song most definitely is about Bob Dylan, by the way. It could hardly be any clearer, even though Joan played a little mind game on him once in '74, asserting that it was about "her husband" (David Harris). Not a chance. It was about Bob.

She did 2 other songs about Bob on that same album, as I recall, or around that same time. One is "Winds of the Old Days" and the other is "Oh, Brother!"

She also did a lovely song for Sara Dylan called "Still Waters at Night".


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 06:15 PM

Yeah, Bob was quite a dandy, even a fop, for a short while there. Velvet suit jackets, tight shiny pants, maybe even Seinfeldesque "puffy shirts" (i.e., with ruffles).

The period in question was the same era when he made so many "enemies" by picking up the electric guitar. I wonder if the reaction might not have been so overwhelmingly toxic if he had changed only his sound and intrumentation, and not changed his "look" or "fashion statement" at the same time, just as drastically or maybe even moreso???


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 06:24 PM

I think he was rubbing their mental inflexibility in their faces with a certain amount of unholy glee in what he was doing...just as he was doing to the press also at the time. He was challenging them to step out of their usual comfort zones, and those who had no intention of doing so got really angry about it. They already felt 100% righteous just exactly the way they were, and he was mocking their righteousness. He felt they took themselves way too seriously.

And rightly so, I believe.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 07:01 PM

I wouldn't be quite so hard on the public that didn't immediately understand what Bob was up to. Weren't we all part of that public, to some degree or another?

I, for one, didn't know what to make of Bob for a short while there. I was by no means a "purist" or any kind of traditionalist ~ hell, I really liked "Like A Rolling Stone" the first time I heard it ~ but I didn't understand the sudden change in subject matter from real-world societal issues to psychological/internal musing. Took me a while to undersatnd and get on board.

And those clothes! Not my cup of tea at all. Rock 'n' roll, no problem ~ but why not rock 'n' roll in a t-shirt and jeans?


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 07:29 PM

Oh, I'm sure if I'd been following Bob really closely at the time...(I wasn't...I was just listening to Joan Baez, Judy Collins, and Buffy Sainte-Marie...and I didn't catch up to Bob till '69 really)...

Anyway, if I HAD been among Bob's fans, I'm sure I would have been quite upset with the way he changed in '65! ;-) Why? Well, I was young, very set in my opinions, and very inflexible about what I thought was "good music"...and I detested rock music on principle. I was an absolute folk purist. I would have been one of the people he totally pissed off, because I was an arrogant folk purist who had trouble seeing "out of the box".

However, I didn't really listen to Bob properly at all till '69, and by then all that had had a chance to go by, and by that time I was ready to hear people do rock music too. The first Dylan album I really listened to was Highway 61 Revisited (4 years after it was released), and it was like a revelation.

I didn't have a chance to get upset over him "going electric", because electric Bob was the first version of Bob that I ever really focused on. Then I got to like all the other stuff he had done as well.

It's not that I'm suggesting that Bob should have been hard on the general public exactly...I'm suggesting that he was at the center of a very self-conscious in-group, that is, the people at the center of the leftist/political/folkie movement at the time, which was really a political movement. They wanted to hear just one kind of song from him, and Bob was into that kind of song for awhile there...but he reached a point where he didn't want to do that anymore or be limited to it...he wanted to do something different.

When he did do something different he was just castigated for it by the grand high mucky-mucks of that very demanding in-group like teh people at Sing Out magazine...people who figured that Phil Ochs was carrying on the crusade, but that Bob had sold out to "commercialism".

They couldn't see past their own big egos. You had to be on their side or you were just part of the forces of evil or something. It gets tiresome being around such painfully zealous people. Very tiresome.

To Phil Ochs' everlasting credit, he never ceased defending Dylan's creativity to those people, despite the apparent desire of the in-crowd to enlist him as their champion in condemning Dylan's supposed "sell-out".

Dylan foreshadowed what would happen in the lyrics of "My Back Pages". He delivered his most angry comment about it in "Positively Fourth Street". He was by that time at open war with the in-group I have alluded to. They regarded him as a Judas...a sellout...they also secretly envied his success, and it must have really burned some of them that he got to where they couldn't. He, I would think, regarded them as a bunch of pompous bores. They were, after all, so painfully earnest about themselves and about everything they were doing.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 08:09 PM

Funny -- I stood at the stage at Newport is 63-64 when he played electric for the first time in a major public venue, and thought it was absolutely classic. Didn't phase me at all. It was clear he was an engine of creative motion and was going to go where his train took him...so to speak...or whatever...anyway, you get the point.


A


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 09:36 PM

Always amazes me that some folks around here think so highly of Dylan. I mean, I do and all but that's because Bob's the kinda' guy who would stuff Winona Ryder with a Dachshund and marinate her with a rub made from petrified Ojibwa crap. Yeah, a real man.........Bon Appetit!!!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 10:23 PM

I like 100% cotten/linen (Something that can carry Heavy-Starch).

I like REAL French-Cuffs (The kind that fold-back at the wrist to puncture a four-level-membrane).

I have perhaps, two dozen cuff-links (the kind that are ostentacious/obnoxious at church).

I like Bob Dylan - I do not beleive he influeced my style in the selection of haberdashery ( I was wearing Hong Kong French's with elegant links a decade before his scene )

However, you have given me an engaging topic of conversation this next weekend when someone asks, "Where did you get those cuffs?"

Sincerly,
Gargoyle

Looking for OUTSTANDING Tux shirts. The REAL STUFF - that can take "heavy starch" - then try the local "thrift/poor-peolple(real people)/slavation/goodwill." Grab them while you can - the rich folks are croaking and the younger generation wants "nothing to do with dead people's crap."


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 10:41 PM

Well, good for you, Amos. ;-) You were obviously a man of flexible mind and excellent judgement when you stood at the stage at Newport. I applaud your keen appraisal of the situation. Certainly, many of the other musicians who knew Dylan well at the time would have agreed with you. Maria Muldaur was there, and she loved it.

I think though that Dylan's first electric performance at Newport occurred in 1965, did it not? He played "Maggie's Farm" and "Like A Rolling Stone" in the closing set of the evening concert....then followed them up after a brief pause with acoustic renditions of "Mr Tambourine Man" and "It's All Over Now, Baby Blue".

Is that the occasion you are alluding to? If not, when?


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 10:59 PM

It is possible I got the year wrong. You know what they say about the SIxties. But that was the show, all right.




A


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 12:43 AM

I know of at least one other Mudcatter who was there, open-minded, not an egotist, yet hated it when he went electric while there. She and I have gone back and forth on it, because, like you, LH, I first really got into Bob when he was already electric. One reason it upset her so much was because it seemed disrespectful to the other performers.

Hmm...ya never know what you will find on the internet. According to this guy, they were not booing at Bob: http://buffaloreport.com/020826dylan.html.

I remember loving to wear long-sleeved shirts with cuff links back then. My dad let me use some very fancy ones which had been his dad's. I still have them.


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Subject: ADD: Diamonds and Rust (Joan Baez)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 03:37 AM

For the record, here are the lyrics, from www.joanbaez.com:

DIAMONDS AND RUST
(Words and Music by Joan Baez)

Well I'll be damned
Here comes your ghost again
But that's not unusual
It's just that the moon is full
And you happened to call
And here I sit
Hand on the telephone
Hearing a voice I'd known
A couple of light years ago
Heading straight for a fall

As I remember your eyes
Were bluer than robin's eggs
My poetry was lousy you said
Where are you calling from?
A booth in the midwest
Ten years ago
I bought you some cufflinks
You brought me something
We both know what memories can bring
They bring diamonds and rust

Well you burst on the scene
Already a legend
The unwashed phenomenon
The original vagabond
You strayed into my arms
And there you stayed
Temporarily lost at sea
The Madonna was yours for free
Yes the girl on the half-shell
Would keep you unharmed

Now I see you standing
With brown leaves falling around
And snow in your hair
Now you're smiling out the window
Of that crummy hotel
Over Washington Square
Our breath comes out white clouds
Mingles and hangs in the air
Speaking strictly for me
We both could have died then and there

Now you're telling me
You're not nostalgic
Then give me another word for it
You who are so good with words
And at keeping things vague
Because I need some of that vagueness now
It's all come back too clearly
Yes I loved you dearly
And if you're offering me diamonds and rust
I've already paid

© 1975 Chandos Music (ASCAP)


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 06:32 AM

"Didn't phase me at all"

I do apologise for being a pedant, but it's spelled 'fazed', Amos.! :-) :-)

Compact Oxford English Dictionary:-

faze

• verb informal disturb or disconcert.

— ORIGIN from dialect feeze drive off, from Old English.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 09:40 AM

QUite right, chum. Apologies for my egregious linguisitic lapse.


A


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Banjiman
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 09:45 AM

anyone heard the Judas Priest version.......I loved it when I was young.......now I am old(er) of course I prefer the original!

Paul


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 10:03 AM

Reading the words of the song reveal it to be pretty well written, nice imagery, poetic and it gives Dylan a run for his money in the art of subtle vituperativeness.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: KeithofChester
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 10:10 AM

There are two Judas Priest versions on YouTube.

The "original"

Diamonds & Rust (allegro)

And this one, more in keeping with Joan's

Diamonds & Rust (andante)

I saw an interview once where Joan complimented Judas Priest on their "interpretation"

When she sings the song live now, it says "40 years ago" and tends to end

"If you're offereing and rust,
I'll take the diamonds."


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Banjiman
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 10:29 AM

Thanks Keith, I enjoyed those (but of course not as much as the Baez version........not that I can admit on this forum anyway!) a real blast from the past for me.

Cheers

Paul


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 01:09 PM

Kat, the article you link to says it all. I think the audience was mostly booing things that Peter Yarrow said (such as that Bob didn't have much available time to play), not booing Bob Dylan. They mostly wanted to hear a whole lot more of Bob Dylan.

Then all the myths started getting repeated after that, and people began acting them out at future shows. Much ado about nothing!

I've got most of that show here on film on the DVD that just came out, and it's wonderful to watch and listen to.

*****

The song "Diamonds and Rust" is a beautiful song, probably the finest piece of writing that Joan ever did.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 05:13 PM

My first Dylan album was "Freewheeling." Stuck with him until "Nashville Skyline."

I loved the acoustic sound but also loved the electric sound.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 06:25 PM

Me too. The one sounds as good as the other to me. I stuck with him right through "Modern Times" (last year's excellent album)...


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 06:45 PM

Keith, thanks for the links. Lotta difference between the two..older/wiser, maybe? Regardless, it was fun to watch them both.

I don't know, LH. I'll have to ask my friend, again.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 06:56 PM

I don't know Bob Dylan. I can't say, with any certainty, what sort of person he really is. No one can gainsay the influence he has had on popular song, folk or otherwise. That said, I have always had trouble with the manufactured persona; the seeming pose of the enigmatic 'artiste' that took Robert Zimmerman, of Hibbing Minnesota, to fame and fortune as Bob (appropriated from Mr. Thomas) Dylan. I know he's not the first to ride a stage name to success, but I can't help feeling he is still putting us on, talented or not.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 07:07 PM

That is rather rich coming from an anonymous guest.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 08:22 AM

"QUite right, chum. Apologies for my egregious linguisitic lapse"

LOL Amos! Cheers!


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 08:48 AM

wow.

A thirty post thread on the subject of whether or not cufflinks would have been an appropriate gift for Dylan...

...and not one mention of the possibility (dare I say "probability"?) that the word "cufflink" was not a reference to any actual material gift given, but rather, a word that fit the meter and somewhat fit the rhyme ("cufflinks" rhymes with "something") as best Baez could.

Instead, the assumption is that it was a literal gift.

God spare me your analysis of Strawberry Fields Forever. :^)


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 08:50 AM

Anyone familiar with the Blackmore's Night version of "Diamonds & Rust"? - certainly worth a listen


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: KeithofChester
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 09:02 AM

It is always difficult to know how much of a song is literal and how much just to fit, but if Bob really did say that Joan's "poetry was lousy", the lyrics of Diamonds & Rust tell a somewhat different tale.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 10:45 AM

Amos, glad to hear you were there.

I was at the festival that year, but missed that very historical performance. I had been arrested earlier in the evening for underage drinking and spent the night in jail

I did see Bob and Al Kooper, looking very weird and dressed like London "mods," at the Butterfield Blues Band's afternoon performance.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 11:03 AM

Keith, he said her poetry was lousy back in the early to mid-60's....and it was at that time, relatively speaking! ;-) It was then. It later improved greatly with practice. By the late 60's her poetry had improved considerably, and by the mid-70's she was writing some very, very good song lyrics, and has been doing so ever since. "Diamonds and Rust" is a classic example, as are numerous other songs like "Gulf Winds".

It is quite rare for people to write really well when they're starting out, although Dylan certainly did. Joan, like most people, needed some time and experience to hone the craft and reach her real potential.

Bob also encouraged Joan to write songs when she thought she couldn't. They had a talk at some point in the early-to-mid 60's and he asked her, "Why don't you write any of your own songs?" She said, "Bob...because I can't." And he said, "That's bullshit, anyone can write songs. Just sit down and do it."

I've read that in her own autobiographical writings. So Bob may have made a critical remark about Joan's poetry on some isolated occasion, but he also tried to give her the confidence to write in the first place.

As for the cufflinks...sure, it might have been just a lyrical invention to fit the verse...but it's also quite likely that it is literally true, John Hardly, so I see no reason why we should not have a discussion based on that hypothetical possibility. Personally, I think it likely is literally true that she gave him some cufflinks.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 11:14 AM

Sorry. I screwed up the html in that second part.
Yes you did. It was tragic. A total cockup. You're an idiot of the first order. Now say, "Thank You kindhearted clone," before a cufflink latches your butt shut.----Fat Clone

Poppa Gator...that sure was bad timing on your part! Geez. But anyway, you saw the earlier part. I wish I'd been there.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: KeithofChester
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 11:30 AM

Sweet Sir Galahad though was Joan's first song (circa 1969), and that isn't at all bad either. Indeed I think it is a wonderful song. However, I accept Bob probably also heard draft songs that never made it to the stage!

Joan is a very good songwriter. She has claimed that she finds songwriting a struggle, and has more or less stopped since around 1990, relying on interpreting other people for recent albums. But the lovely song Speaking of Dreams (on the album of the same name) from around 1989 shows just what she is still capable of if she pushes herself. Love Song to a Stranger or Love Song to a Stranger Part 2 are very good songs. Honest Lullaby is a brilliant song!


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Slag
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 04:55 PM

Oh Momma, can this really be the end? To be stuck inside (of a) Mobile with (cuff link) blues again?

Well, I really shot that full of holes, didn't I?


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 06:07 PM

I think Bob's "lousy poetry" comment was probably made about actual, literal poetry Joan was writing at the time...not about her later song lyrics...because he clearly made that comment well before 1969 (I would assume somewhere in the years '63-65, when he and Joan were spending much time together and doing a lot of musical performing together too).

I couldn't agree more that "Honest Lullaby" is an absolutely brilliant song. It is the one, along with "Diamonds and Rust" that stands out to me as a masterpiece. "Sweet Sir Galahad" is not bad at all. I very much like most of the songs Joan has written.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 07:49 PM

It's just as well you were in the cooler, Poppa -- if we'd connected, no telling what sort of vile adventures we would have ended up in. Besides, you would never have recognized me if you had seen me -- I was handsome that day.


A


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Slag
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 09:46 PM

I was in my Junior year at college ( age 27 [ 4 year military stint you know]) when that song/album came out (which I promptly purchased and still have) and I got into a long and heated argument with a certain Professor "God". I contended that it was written aobut Bob Dylan. He insisted it was about Joan's husband and sans any facts he resorted to ridicule. I think he thought that he won that little debate, I mean you know? being a college professor and all....


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 10:21 PM

That's how the human ego tends to work. No regard for facts, no regard for objectivity, only the desire to win at any cost...since the uncontrolled ego equates any kind of "losing" with death...simply unbearable!

Here's an example of how that works. I recall well the worst model kit of the battleship Bismark that was ever manufactured. It was Aurora's rendition. It came out right after the movie "Sink the Bismark", which was in the late 50's sometime...and every boy in North America and the UK WANTED a model of the Bismark!!! So the Aurora company obliged by making a grossly inaccurate, seriously poor model of the ship...but in a box with great cover art! Smart marketing. The cover art looked just like the ship. The model....? Sorry, it was one of the poorest, crappiest battleship models ever made, really a pathetic attempt, but just about everyone bought the thing and built it because it was the only Bismark you could get.

A couple of years later Revell and Airfix both did genuinely accurate models of the Bismark by the standards of the time, and that pretty well put an end to that problem.   Who wanted Aurora's disaster any longer? Nevertheless, Aurora continued selling it to some kids who didn't know any better for years and years afterward. It was ignorant newbies who bought it. People who knew their stuff bought the Revell or Airfix kits.

Well, a dozen years went by and I'm standing in a large hobby and games store in Toronto, and there's a woman in there who wants to buy a model of the Bismark for her son. All well and good. She's talking to this eager young salesman with a beard and he's telling her that the Aurora kit...yes, this ancient piece of crap that was no good in 1960...is the BEST kit they have of the Bismark.

I walk over and say, "The Airfix kit is far better in every way."

He says, "That's nonsense! What do you know about it? You don't even work here."

"I've built both of them," I said. "The Aurora kit is extremely primitive. It has about 1/3 as many parts as the Airfix kit and it's just about all wrong everywhere. It looks sort of vaguely like the Bismark from the side, but not the least bit like it from above. I suspect they did the whole thing from a single sideview photo, and just guessed about the rest. It's missing all the smaller antiaircraft guns, and it's all out of proportion. The Airfix kit is accurate, complete, and it looks just like the real ship."

The woman, of course, was a bit confused listening to all this...

The guy with the beard continued arguing vociferously that the Aurora kit was far and away the best one! Why??? Well, because he'd already SAID so...so it just had to be. He certainly could not have been basing his opinion on any real knowledge of the kits themselves. No, he was basing his opinion on his self-image, period. He HAD to be right.

Well, in his determination to PROVE that he was right he finally tore the shrinkwrap off the Aurora kit to show how great and accurate the parts really were.

Really amazing.

I realized I might just possibly be dealing with a borderline mental case by that point, and it might not be wise to provoke him further, so I walked away. I figured, "What the hell difference does it make anyway? This lady's son will sooner or later find out for himself, and I am wasting my time here arguing with a dimwit whose self-image is more important to him than anything else on Earth.

I always avoided that guy after that, because he struck me as being, frankly, a bit dangerous. You gotta watch out for people who'd rather be "right" than be even vaguely rational.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: KeithofChester
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 03:27 AM

Joan says in her autobiography And A Voice To Sing With that during The Rolling Thunder Revue tour in 1975/76 Bob used to ask her to "sing the one about me" and she used to tease him with "you mean the one about David" [her husband], so there is a little bit of an excuse for people being confused.

And A Voice To Sing With (written about 20 years back) is a great read. It is out of print, but you can still pick up good copies second hand.

There is another song we've not mentioned yet she wrote about Bob too, which is For Bobby.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 04:15 AM

I don't know about the reality or not, regarding the cufflinks, but I sure would have loved to have been the dog on the floor at this:

Joan does Dylan

Slightly off topic as well, but their version (should show up in related videos) of Love is Just a Four Letter Word is superb. Those little Scruggs boys didn't suck.

And I've been doing too much early celebrating of the birth of the Scottish Bard.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: KeithofChester
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:15 AM

I really like Love Is Just A Four Letter Word, and had never heard THAT version, so thanks! That IS worth having a link to too.

Love Is Just A Four Letter Word


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Banjiman
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:21 AM

Does life get any better? Joan Baez AND Earl Scruggs?

Perfect!


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:41 AM

Yes it does.....As I said before life can be fantastic having Winona Ryder stuffed with a Dachshund and marinated with a rub made from petrified Ojibwa crap.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 11:52 PM

What nailed it for me, KeithofChester, was that Randy Scruggs wasn't very old in that video and he more than held his own and the look of pride on his Dad's face was priceless.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 12:03 AM

Thanks, Mets! Wonderful stuff!!


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Slag
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 08:08 PM

LH as a modeler in my youth and even ocassionally now---I know what you mean. Another angle struck me that is every bit as powerful as endangered egos: The store had either over-bought that one and was having a heck of a time getting rid of them or it was the kit that gave them the biggest profit margin. Ego is always around regarless of the stituation.

But back to the song. I was still just teaching my self the guitar at that time ( I know, late start ) but I sat down and figured that one out all on my own and even the bridge which I felt reaaly good about! Wow! I was a folk player. I didn't dare call myself a singer at that time. Very little confidence in my voice. Anyhow it is a great ballad that captures the pathos of love and love gone wrong. It was written from the heart.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: reynard
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 09:32 AM

I bought you some cufflinks
You brought me something...

(or should that be "bought"?)

Never had any problem with the cufflinks- it's the kind of thing people used to buy as gifts in those days when they couldn't think of anything useful. Whenever I hear this song I want to know what that enigmatic "something" was and why it just hangs there. Did she just forget? That would mean that this is really what happened and not made up "poetry" as someone suggested above- why make up a line like that?


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: reynard
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 09:42 AM

Perhaps I should start a separate thread...


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 12:01 PM

The "something" that Bob brought her would not necessarily have to be something material. After all, they both brought each other a great deal in a non-material sense...and that's the part of life that really stays with you. The material stuff all ends up in the trash eventually.

It was definitely a set of cufflinks that she bought him, by the way. I heard it in some recent interview. They were staying in the Chelsea Hotel, looking out the windows at snow falling outside, and she had bought him a set of cufflinks. I sort of wish I was back there right now.


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: meself
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 01:39 PM

Um, Little Hawk - you WEREN'T there. Really ....


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 08:36 PM

I meant that I wish I was back in that general musical scene at that time period. You know...Greenwich Village, coffee houses, Washington Square, Newport, that kind of thing?


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Subject: RE: Diamonds and Rust
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 08:39 PM

Why Hawk? Do you need cufflinks or what?

Spaw


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