Critics Group

Subject: Critics Group
From: Banjovey
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 08:41 PM

I'd be interested in learning more about this group of performers who worked with McColl and Seeger during the 1960s and early 1970s. I already have a certain amount of basic information, membership, discography etc. but would appreciate further details

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:50 PM

I have the two 12 inch albums they recorded of London Orientated songs ! ALL good stuff!

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Banjovey
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:52 PM

They also did an album of sea songs and several albums of poetry and songs, all on Argo.

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 04:15 AM

Has anyone written a history of the Group?

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 05:56 AM

There's no history of the Critics Group that I'm aware of. However, there is quite a lot about them in Ben Harker's biography of Ewan MacColl; Class Act. See also Frankie Armstrong's autobiography, As Far As The Eye Can Sing.

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 11:52 AM

And Jim Carroll who posts on here knows a fair bit.

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 04:23 PM

They were also known as "The London Critics Group".

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 04:44 PM

The ones based around MacColl & Seeger were.
The Critics groups in Manchester and Birmingham weren't.

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 05:09 PM

"I'd be interested in learning more about this group of performers who worked with McColl and Seeger during the 1960s and early 1970s.

They were also known as "The London Critics Group".

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 05:22 PM

Terrible echo in here.
The Critics weren't a "group" in the beat combo sense.
Their name stemmed from the concept that they worked together in the spirit of self criticism.
Where they did this was in England's majot cities, i.e. (principally with MacColl & Seeger in London, Harry Boardman in Manchester and Roy Harris in Birmingham).
They were scarcely unknown to each other.
As has been mentioned before, it's all there in some detail in Harker's bio.

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 09:00 PM

So what was the "work" they did, if not play music together? and were MacColl etc just fellow members of the group, or another role?

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 09:08 PM

See Jim Carroll's detailed posts here on the subject for answers to that FAQ. They are recent, so not indexed by the search engine, but a little work with the filter on the main page will locate them. I think most were in discussions with 'MacColl' in the title.

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 12:40 AM

I have no idea if any of it is accurate and it may not be anything than what you already know, but there is this at WIKI, which cna be suspect for accuracy, I know.

There is a letter by Peggy Seeger which mentions a bit and makes note of Jim Carroll, HERE.

An easy way to hunt up Jim's posts is to go up to the Quick Links, use the drop down menu and scroll down to "Old Adv. Forum Search." Click on that, put "jim carroll" in the name box, then hit GO. It will then come up with all of his postings which you can search.

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 03:28 AM

...and that great sax and clarinet player Bruce "Dirty Bopper" Turner played on some of their records, notably Sweet Thames Flow Softly (Argo). I have the LP.

RtS

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 03:41 AM

I think that the only other group called 'Critics' apart from the London one was run by Terry Whelan in Manchester.
The London Singers Workshop, originally started by C.G. member Sandra Kerr (Banjovey - an old friend, was a member of this) ran for nearly 20 years, and there was a group in Birmingham instigated by Charles Parker, also a member of C.G.
Harry Boardman never ran a group in Manchester, but I helped set one up there in the sixties, (before I moved to London to join the C.G.) along with Mary Humphries and Bryn Pugh.
Other workshops worked in similar ways throughout the sixties and seventies, but have no information on them.
At the symposium given for Ewan on his 70th birthday in County Hall in London I gave a talk on the origin and work of the Critics. I still have the transcript of the talk and will be happy to send it to anybody who PMs me.
Ewan said that the time he spent working with the Critics was the most rewarding period of his life; this was certainly the case with me.
It has been my intention for some time now to put together a sound package which includes some of the working methods, voice and relaxation exercises, etc used by the group to pass on to anybody interested; perhaps Banjovey and I can come up with something between us.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 03:51 AM

PS Thanks for the Wiki reference Kat; didn't know of it.
Seems fairly accurate and fair (PBTG) apart from a couple of errors (Bert Lloyd was never involved (nor Tom Paley) and would rather have given birth than criticise anybody!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 04:03 AM

I got the information about Harry Boardman's involvement in Manchester from Mary Humphreys but, as Jim knows very well, I wasn't even there so probably got it all wrong. Similarly, I seem to recall Charles Parker (who I forgot to mention) telling me he was working with Roy Harris in the Birminngham group but here again, best listen to Jim! My own involvement was limited to, I think. four attendances in London so what do I know?

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 04:42 AM

I've now looked at the Wikipedia entry where the entry on membership seems a curious combination of Singers' and Knave people with a few important omissions. Helen Campbell - wow that was a LONG time ago! - (later Leader) but Bobby Campbell and Gordon McCulloch are omitted. As is Enoch Kent (but then perhaps he was also a "usually around" but not actually a member?) Then there was Northumbrian piper Ron Elliott who was later to become Nancy Kerr's father.

No, I don't recall Tom Paley ever being in that precise neck of the woods, let along "criticising" anyone but one of my abiding memories of the Union Tavern is Luke Kelly (when in town). And Dominic Behan, but he never joined anything.

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 05:41 AM

Tom was living in London around that time Diane, I remember meeting him in several clubs.
There was also I guy called Dick Snell who I used to see most weeks at the Cellar Club in CSH, whom I believe was involved with the Critics. That was in the days when Jack and Margaret King ran it.
Giok

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 05:52 AM

Tom Paley still lives in London, in the same place near the Angel. He's still to this day usually at the Cellar which moved out of C# 24 years ago, or at Islington, which meanders around. I meant I can't recall ever seeing him at the Union Tavern, and certainly never indulging in criticism.

As a matter of coincidence he (as the New Deal String Band) has a gig at The Horseshoe next Thursday, 31 January.

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: 8_Pints
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 10:08 AM

With the sad demise of Terry Whelan the Manchester Critics Group was resurrected under Shimrod's leadership last year.

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 10:30 AM

Thank you, Jim. Even though I wasn't there and didn't know about this, this is the kind of stuff I love learning about on the Mudcat. I hope you do get your sound package put together; it sounds well worth it for a lot of folks.

kat

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 11:41 AM

slightly off thread, but I am intrigued as to the identity of Shimrod.

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 01:22 PM

Anyone in the LCG circle recognise the name Aldwyn Cooper (late 60s) or Terry somebody who went to Dulwich College. Festival of Fools, Christmas, 1968.
I travelled with them and others to Russia via Finland in 1968, crossing the border on Aug 21. Kinda memorable. The next year a group went to Galway, and included Aldwyn and a bloke I knew as "Mish" McColl, who'd lost a hand.

I wouldn't want to embarrass any of them by surfacing (it was a long time ago), just like to know if they're out there.

Paws

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 02:42 PM

Aldwyin was in the group - Mish is Hamish, Ewan's son by his marriage to Jean Newlove - still around I think. Only Terry I can put a name to is a good friend, Terry Yarnell. If he went to Dulwich College it must have been to paint the window-frames.

Dick Snell was a good friend and near neighbour when joined and helped me to catch up on the group's work - nice singer. Will put up a full list of the group later
Good luck with the Manchester group Shimrod - delighted it didn't die with Terry.
More later, when I read the thread properly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 02:53 PM

Di,
Roy Harris ran lived in Nottingham and ran the Newshouse Club.
Tom Paley was a regular at the club, never a resident but guested often - nice nights with him and Peggy.
He was renowned for tuning and would take ages - the butt of much humour by all. When he took up Hardanger it took us months to realise it, thought he was still having trouble tuning!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 05:23 PM

Cap'n,

Sadly, we've never met and I doubt that my real name would mean anything to you. I do hope, though, to have the pleasure of hearing you sing at some point in the near future.

Actually, 8 Pints is not quite correct:

(i) I'm not the leader of the group that he refers to - just the 'co-ordinator'. We all agreed that any such group should be a true collective and should be run on democratic lines.

(ii) We decided, democratically, not to call ourselves 'The Critics Group' but the 'Song Carriers Workshop Group'.

The Objective of the group is:

"To meet together to improve our singing of traditional (or traditional type) songs and ballads in a mutually supportive and constructive atmosphere."

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 06:51 PM

Sounds like a highly laudable venture, Shimrod. Hope you and some of the other group members can make it to the next Chorlton singaround to regale us with a few songs (if you haven't done already, of course).

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 02:55 AM

Countess Di,
Having slept on it - could you be referring to Roy Palmer, who was involved with the workshop in Birmingham?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 03:18 AM

Roy Palmer, yes that seems very likely. Do bear in mind that I was trying to recall a conversation with Charles Parker 30 years ago . . .

I went to Terry Yarnell's CD launch about three years ago at a pub in Bethnal Green (not the Knave) and he's singing as well as ever.

Mish is working as an actor mainly, principally in two-handers with Sean Foley but I saw him singing and playing at Peggy Seeger's 70th birthday concert.

Tom Paley is still taking for ever to tune. He says the New Lost City Ramblers used to have a group of fans who turned out just for this and wandered off once th band was actually in tune and started playing.

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 06:38 AM

Terry's Cd launch was in the White Horse (sadly no more) at the other end of Bethnal Green on Cambridge Heath Road.

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: BB
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 03:18 PM

"Tom Paley still lives in London, in the same place near the Angel. He's still to this day usually at the Cellar which moved out of C# 24 years ago".

Every time I've been to Sharp's folk club at C# House over the last 20 years or so, he's been there. Always a delight to see him.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 03:44 PM

Yes, Tom Paley goes to Sharp's sometimes.
The Cellar is currently at the Exmouth Arms beside Euston station on Saturdays.
This is complete different from the Tuesday event at C#.
Don't forget his gig with the New Deal String Band at Islington this Thursday.

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 04:02 AM

Last time I heard Terry Yarnell was playing in a session at the Chevy Chase in East London (must have walked miles to find a pub named after a ballad) - out Stratford way, but has now moved to Suffolk.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Critics Group
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 09:30 AM

Dear Shimrod,

'Well done' sounds bloody patronising, but it is heartfelt.

This from (with Jim Carroll and Mary Humphreys) one of the original Manchester Critics.

Long may the Song Carriers Workshop Group flourish.

Regards, Bryn