Tech: Outdated Software

Subject: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 06:49 AM

The Tech Guy from PC World has just been and gone.He came ostensibly to resolve the myriad conflicts which have been erupting on my computer ever since I bought it a few months ago. These are mainly to do with the audio system. EG., If I plug the headphones in, the speaker outlet stops working. Also, I can record sound from an external source, but not from a source generated by the computer, such as the radio. And every second fortnight, the DVD ROM driver packs up and I have to go into the registry and remove Upper and Lower Filters. (I learned that one after a long phone conversation with PC World.) Oh, and the Internet keeps crashing.

In other words, Windows Vista Home Premium appears to have a lot of associated problems.

He fiddled with a few keys and left after pointing to a 1997 edition of Lotus Smartsuite. "Outmoded software", he said. "You can't expect a modern platform like Windows Vista Home Premium to function properly with a ten year old package."

Now then, I have a copy of Lotus on my computer because I find the spreadsheet and database applications much easier to use than Microsoft. What's more, this package has been successfull installed on three previous editions of Windows. It has always worked perfectly and has never caused any conflicts.

Since the computer is still under guarantee, I feel that PC World have an obligation to get it operating properly. Before I pursue the matter any further, or unload an important piece of software, would anybody know whether the guy is right. Or do I smell a dereliction of responsibility.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Leadfingers
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 06:54 AM

Is there a Vista Friendly up date for Lotus ?
It seems Vista came in SO fast that a lot of people hadnt got Vista frindlly stuff ready

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 06:59 AM

Ahha! I have a spanking new laptop from PC Home for which I am compiling a list of "faults" before I go in for my money back. Lack of sound recording, crash, refusal to run audacity and most useful programmes. I have coped with all the new windows versions and moved all my programmes as required, but Vista is Boll****. My computer gen son (Bsc thinking), recommends the newest version of Linux...I am sorely tempted. But I will first get my money back from PCHome as the kit does not do what it says on the box. ( I am ever the optimist)

Andy

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 07:02 AM

PC World have a reputation for poor or non existant aftrer sales service.

This company was investigated by the BBC Watchdog programme who came up with many -ve findings.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio/watchdog/

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 07:16 AM

Mr Happy; This is not the first time I've had trouble with PC World's after sales service. I certainly won't be buying anything from them again.

Leadfingers. "Is there a Vista Friendly up date for Lotus ?
It seems Vista came in SO fast that a lot of people hadnt got Vista frindlly stuff ready"

I thought that Lotus had been driven out of business by Microsoft, but they have been taken over by IBM. You can still buy Smartsuite from them. However, as I've never had the slightest trouble with my antiquated edition of Smartsuite, and it works perfectly well on Vista, I doubt that's the problem. My guess is that PC World just doesn't want to accept responsibility for a Microsoft product which shouldn't have been put on the market until all the problems had been ironed out. Ah well, that's Big Brother for you.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 07:20 AM

Just looked at that site Mr Happy & didnt find anything about PC World.
I am interested as my daughter is at Uni & phoned me to say she has a problem on her laptop. She went to PC World & they offered to backup her hard-drive (£30) reload Windows (£200) & provide a (???? @ £50) to enable her to transfer files from her laptop to another machine.
I told her I will sort it myself when she visits this week-end.
For £280 we can practically buy a new m/c (hers is 2yrs old).

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Hovering Bob
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 07:24 AM

Yeah Fred, I too have a venerable old version of Lotus 1-2-3 which I wouldn't be without. It works on Vista OK (including the Lotus Organiser) but several other bits of software either don't work or crash! I'm just hoping that everything will catch up and become Vista friendly, or should it be the other way round?

BobH

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: mattkeen
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 07:42 AM

PC world do not have a good reputation, but they cannot fix the short comings of Vista anyway

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Nick
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 07:46 AM

Out of interest if you go into Control Panel and Users and look at the User you are logged in as do you have a feature called 'User Account Control' with a tick beside it? You might want to explore whether things work differently if you turn it off.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 07:53 AM

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/04/12/asa_slaps_pc_world/

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2005/04/20/dsg_sold_old_computers_as_new/

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: jeffp
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 08:01 AM

Maybe Microsoft could release XP Classic, sort of like Coke did after their screwup with the new Coke.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 08:28 AM

I have a laptop and the operating system is Vista. I have never had any problems with it. In fact I get far less problems. My daughter has Vista on her machine and it works great. So many people are blaming Vista and sometimes I think that is unfair.

I would have thought that the only responsibility PC World have, is that all components work properly and that Vista and any other programs that they install, work properly. Once you start installing your own software, you have moved on and they do not need to support you for your own software.

Recently I was asked to help somebody who had just bought a laptop with Vista on. He couldn't send e-mails or receive them, and of course Vista was taking the blame. It was a Toshiba laptop and PC World had conned him into buying Norton. I went back to PC World and they refused to give the guy the money back for misselling him Norton. So I just said to the manger, that they had lost my business. The manger didn't seem to care. The machine I bought recently for my daughter was over a £1000. I bought it from Mesh. Did she win. I think not.
Anyway, I stripped the machine of Norton and installed the free version of AVG and NoAdware. Things improved dramatically. However there was still a problem with E-mail. PC World refused to help and told me to get in touch with Toshiba. I did that and had the problem escalated until I got a really good techie. He solved the problem. Some of theses PC manufacturers put their own versions of Vista on (OEM - I thin k that's what they call it), and because of that, a problem was occurring. Once that was addressed, everything was fine.

I suggest you look at each problem, and document each problem. Then join this website forum and start a thread for the first problem and wait patiently and I am sure you will get it solved. Once done, move on to the next question, until you have solved them. Make sure you post in the correct section, as there are Guru's for each type of issue. and surprise surprise, the website is is supported by TechGuy with people who have a vast amount of experience who support for nowt.
The website is Tech Support Guy. Be clear and precise and don't get ratty with these guys as they help out of the kindness of their heart.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: pavane
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 09:04 AM

Microsoft took stuff OUT of Windows which means that some software is no longer compatible, but you may not find out until you try and run it.

When my XP laptop died, I needed a replacement urgently, but could only buy one with Vista. I found that one of my ESSENTIAL programs, VB5, will not run in Vista. There is no upgrade path, because the 'replacement', VB.Net is virtually a new language. A rewrite in VB.NET of a large program is out of the question, several months of hard (and unnecessary) work, even if it is possible at all.

Luckily, my XP machine has now been repaired and I am back in business. Warning - DON'T buy a new machine, especially if VISTA is installed.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Leadfingers
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 09:10 AM

It would seem that Vista is OK , provided you dont want to run ANY pre- Vista software on it ! But I will stick with XP as long as I can

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Bert
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 09:18 AM

If you still have your old computer you could load Linux onto that.

A couple of years ago my daughter bought an old HP at a thrift store. It was very slow so she bought a new Compaq. I loaded Linux on the old machine and she was most upset that it then ran faster than her new Compaq running Windows.

If you do load Linux, backup all of your data files first as you will need to reformat your hard drives.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 09:55 AM

Regarding the first specific problem mentioned:

If I plug the headphones in, the speaker outlet stops working

Hint: that's what it's supposed to do on most newer computers. That's not really a Vista thing. Modern up-to-date and "withit" manufacturers understand that the only use of headphones is so tweenyboppers can listen to gangsta rap without their parents hearing it. When you plug in the headphones, the speakers are silenced so you can blow your own ears out without disturbing everyone else.

It's quite likely that the headphone jack includes a switch to turn off all other sound outputs when you shove a plug into it.

Vista claims to have better capabilities for running older software than previous Windows versions, and it's possible that there's some truth to the claim; but lots of older programs use "insecure" methods, and Vista doesn't - by default - allow them to do what they need to do, unless you change security settings to specifically allow the "unsafe" methods. The problem here is that Microsoft has provided absolutely no useful help on how to set up the security permissions to do this.

If there really is a problem with "obsolete software," Vista should tell you about it. The typical first symptom is a popup that tells you that there's a problem with the software, usually allowing you to choose to "run anyway." This is typically followed at the next boot by a message informing you that the program has been disabled. The only general criterion for Vista rejection of an older program that I've found is that any program that accesses an optical drive without automatically contacting the "Copyright Police" to tell them what's on the disk will be disabled. (DRM policies are quite rigid in Vista, apparently.)

There may be other reasons for failure to run, but mostly these will be associated with "illegal" - per Vista standards - processor or hard drive access methods and/or programs with known serious and unpatched malware vulnerabilities. If Vista doesn't tell you it's a "bad program," then the program should run, although - as noted - you may have to set up specific security policies to allow it to run properly. (But don't ask how that's done.)

One of the major problems Microsoft has admitted is that they did not provide sufficient "advertising" of new Vista characteristics before putting it on the market. This has been solved by putting nothing but advertising on Microsoft support sites. At least for the present, there is nothing useful there.

Persons attempting to use Vista - and the new Office Programs - must accept the mandatory requirement that an entirely new language must be learned. It is uncertain whether this language is an archaic form of "Mac Speak" (current Macs aren't as obtuse) or is just "baby talk." The high-level former Apple administrator that Microsoft hired under a title carefully crafted to conceal any association with Vista, quite probably left Apple because of an argument over whether the primitive descriptive language he favored was being dropped in favor of having at least a few terms intelligible to persons other than "creative artists" and/or "magazine editors." There is at least an obvious evidence in what I've been able to translate indicating that only a few sub-teens and perhaps selected chimpanzees will find the new "Vista-speak" a "natural" method of communication. That executive has recently submitted his resignation from Microsoft "to seek new opportunities."

Example:

The instruction "To open a file, click "File" and then click "Open."

Is replaced by:

"To perform a task that involves using a document or other object that exists on your computer, click the

            COWSPLAT

at the top left of the window that you have open. There you will find several choices for tasks you can perform if you choose to do so."

When you click the

            COWSPLAT

you do not find a place to simply click "Open a file." Instead, you find a multitude of helpful(?) instructions like:

"If you would like to perform a task that involves using multimedia connections please provide your complete name, address, email address, social security number, bank account number, credit card number and expiration dates, and you mother-in-law's maiden name and you will be instantly connected to someone who will provide you with thrilling and current multimedia programming and content for your immediate purchase and enjoyment."

Approximately a dozen additional and very similar choices may be offered.

At the next click (random selection is about as effective as trying to follow the instructions) you may encounter:

"If this choice did not provide the proper task management utilities to do what you want it is because YOU ARE AN IDIOT. You should not take offense at our providing this information, but be assured that you are exactly the kind of person this system was designed to please, and the features incorporated here are entirely for your amusement and enjoyment."

Okay - so maybe I overstated things a bit(?) - or maybe not. It's only because I just don't yet understand the new Vista-speak.

If your seller's support people can't fix your problem, it is entirely possible that they're a bunch of rip-off artists who have no intention of supporting what they sell; but it's also possible that their support staff consists of people over the age of 13 who don't yet speak "Vista" - or their chimpanzee is busy helping others. Good luck finding someone who does speak the language.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 10:02 AM

Face it- a major purpose for writing new operating systems/software is to make old software obsolete. I've found very few things that software of a decade or so ago wo't handle.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 10:11 AM

LOL!!!

The trials and tribulations you folks are suffering through would all come to a quick end if you jumped ship and got yourself a Mac.


A

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 10:20 AM

Is it raining then?

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: GUEST,dazbo
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 10:35 AM

I've got vista and the main problem I seem to have with it is crashing at least once every couple of hours use (usually associated with either using the media player or displaying pictures - both microsoft products!!). In trying to run a favourite old game - unsucessfully - I'm sure I found somewhere that let you use the pc, emulating I suppose is the word, in earlier versions of windows. This may (or knowing MS may not) help.

BTW vista has a media centre I think it's called: it seems crap compared with what I had on my work's XP laptop before I changed jobs. Anyone else find this?

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 10:42 AM

I love Vista!   I have a new PC and it works wonderfully! I found the new Office programs to be more powerful and productive than older versions.

I was running Windows 98 for nearly a decade. I was like many of you, a stubborn altercocker who did not want to see validity in new technolgy. I bought into all the urban legends of the problems new operatings systems came with. I was comfortable with my old jalopy of a PC and resisted changing. I missed several versions of Windows. Suffice it to say, a number of my older programs would not adapt to Vist. I would not expect it to. The programs that are now available were by and large superior to what I had been running.

John in Kansas hit the nail on the head- it is largely a matter of learning new language.   The benefits far exceed the drawbacks, and you will discover that the drawbacks are usually self-imposed limitations that are easily conquered. Don't be a creature of habit!

The problem is, people expect outmoded software to continue serving a purpose. You would not take parts from an 1960 Edsel and stick it into a 2008 BMW and expect it to work properly. Everything changes and requires people to adapt.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 10:44 AM

"refusal to run audacity "

I run audacity without problem.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 11:09 AM

I'm afraid my next computer is going to be a Mac. Let's hope the XP keeps going for a while. I can live without that learning curve.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Newport Boy
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 12:52 PM

Fred

Back to your original question re SmartSuite 97. I've used SmartSuite and its predecessors for ever. When I moved from Win98 to XP, SmartSuite 97 declined to install, so I upgraded to SmartSuite Millennium (9.8).

I think I could have found a way around the install problem, but the upgrade was inexpensive. I've had no problems since.

As far as I know, IBM has not developed a version for Vista. If your version is working, I wouldn't worry. I don't think IBM are putting any resources into SmartSuite development, although someone will probably tell me otherwise - certainly the changes from 97 to Millennium were not very visible.

On the other topic, today's Technology Guardian has a front page article on problems with Vista sound . I don't think it deals with your problems specifically, but it explains some of the background.

Phil

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 01:48 PM

Don't worry too much about it. The "working name" for the replacement for Vista is already called "Windows 8." Watch for it soon!

An Impartial Review of Vista

Vista seems to be liked by people who run only things that start up automatically via plug-n-play. Mostly what works, works pretty well. Unfortunately, if anything doesn't work, there's very little help available, at least for now.

The new Office 2007 probably would seem a lot more powerful than the Office 97 that would be on most Win98 setups. But one specific task I checked out very carefully that in Word 2002 can all be done on one toolbar (that opens automatically when needed) with about 18 clicks, following the instructions in the Word helpfile exactly in Office 2007, required using three separate "main menus," two of which required drilling down three levels, with swapping back and forth between them, for a total of 73 clicks plus a couple of typed in commands (the typing shortened the process by about 11 clicks).

In previous Office versions, you could customize toolbars to get what you want. Office Help now says that the top toolbars at least are "immutable" and cannot be changed.

Word 97 actually had nearly all the "horsepower" of later versions, but you did have to figure out how to use all of it. Some things were slightly more obvious in later versions.

Phil - WinME is for all practical purposes the same program as Win98SE, with a few more patches rolled into the original disks. The very few changes added in "Millenium" just made it a bit top-heavy. For the things that actually worked, they're the same program, just with a little more clutter in WinME.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: GUEST,Curmudgeon
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 04:22 PM

Funny, I can get Lotus 1-2-3 to work via Vista.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 04:56 PM

Mmmmmm why do the words PC World and wankers go together!

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 07:54 PM

You aren't the only one having trouble with Vista and audio - here is an article in this week's Guardian Technology section: Why Vista sounds worse: Changes to how the latest version of Windows handles audio playback has caused unexpected quality issues for musicians and consumers alike, reports Tim Anderson,

I bought a new computer with Windows XP just a few months before Vista came out. I've had a go at using Vista on other computers since then - and I've decided I was rather lucky not to wait until they brought out Vista before buying.

Maybe a couple of years down the road there'll be a verion that is actually an improvement.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 08:39 PM

"Maybe Microsoft could release XP Classic,"

Actually, Win9x Super Classic... :-P

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Gulliver
Date: 31 Jan 08 - 08:42 PM

If you want to run Vista, get rid of Lotus/IBM applications--these are based on an outdated technology--for example SmartSuite. These were designed to be different from Windows, not to run with it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:34 AM

My 4-year-old computer with Windows XP got sluggish and crashed a lot, so I bought a new one as soon as Vista came out. I got plenty of RAM and processor speed, and 1.5 Terabytes of storage. I've had the computer for a year now, with no problems. I got Office 2007 at the same time, and I will admit that some processes seem to take more keystrokes or mouse clicks (but many common tasks are much easier, like adjusting margins).
Vista works just fine, if you have a computer that can handle it and half an ounce of adaptability. Some older programs won't work on Vista (or perhaps their manufacturers are too cheap to make them work on Vista). Most work just fine - if you have to patience to figure out how to make them run.
Oh, and the DOS version of the Digital Tradition works just great on Windows Vista, so what else do I need?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: pavane
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 02:42 AM

Joe,
Microsoft deliberately took OUT some features which were needed by VB5. They also took OUT a lot of features from the VB language when they replaced it by VB.Net. No doubt to 'encourage' people to purchase new software. (They have also removed the previous version of the Help system).

My problem is not just a program that doesn't work, and can be replaced by a more modern version. It is 200,000 lines of program code (HARMONY) which would need to be rewritten before I can even compile it using VISTA. And it includes some OCX code from other authors which may not even work at all.

As I receive only a very little income from registrations, I cannot dedicate my personal time, unpaid, for the several months' hard work needed to convert it.

But when compiled under XP, the program actually runs perfectly on a VISTA machine.

How many other software writers have found their code made obsolete for no good reason other than to increase Microsoft's profits by having to purchase upgrades?

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 02:59 AM

Joe -

(but many common tasks are much easier, like adjusting margins).

The "easier adjustment" that I would assume you mean is a partial "quick setup" exactly the same as you got in earlier versions if you used the "New Document" button. In older versions it was called "select a template," but in Word 2007 you have to select each of multiple bits and pieces that could be in one template separately from several different "quicker and easier(?)" places.

As seems to be the rule, setting margins may look simpler if you're a simple person and can use the settings that Microsoft has decided everybody wants, but getting part of the same setup that earlier Office versions used, and that MUST BE USED to set up a page to a Publisher's Specification (or to one of my own) requires at least three more clicks than in WinXP and Word before 2007. In Word2007, you must also back out to a top menu and navigate down through multiple levels to get the rest of what was on a SINGLE MENU in earlier versions, which adds another three to five clicks for each of the other parts that used to be on one Page Setup menu.

For a "professional" or "advanced" user, it is incredibly more cumbersome.

It's simpler if you meet the Microsoft "User Profile" partially outlined in my post above in this thread at 31 Jan 08 - 09:55 AM, at the third paragraph from the bottom beginning with: If this choice did not provide the proper task management utilities ...

But the did it all for the Joes of the world, who do meet the Microsoft Consumer Profile I guess.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:03 AM

You may be right, John. I don't want to be bothered with a "learning curve." I want to take the software out of the box, intall it without a hassle, and start using it - discovering new features as I go along. I have had basic DOS, word processing, spreadsheet, and database skills since 1988, when I actually read a couple of books on how to do stuff on computers. Since then, I have expected to be able to use just about any software without much study.

To adjust mrgins and other appearance matters in Word 2007, I hit the ribbon tab for layout, select my margins and orientation and such, and go back to work. Takes about three seconds and four mouse clicks.

It really isn't all that difficult. Admit it, John: you just don't like Microsoft. It's some sort of personal thing between you and the Big Company. Well, as far as I can see, Microsoft is one Big Company that makes a darn good product. Besides that, Bill Gates seems to be doing responsible things with his money.

I've used a wide variety of software since 1988. I don't do programming, but I've taught a lot of people how to use a lot of different types of software. With few exceptions, I've found Microsoft software to be reliable and enjoyable to use. None has caused me the nightmares I've had with some products from Norton, Adobe, Siebel, and a few other big names.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:27 AM

Joe -

I actually have said before, maybe even in this thread, that Vista and Office 2007 may be pretty good. I've also commented that for most users, most things probably will work as expected.

The problem is that they've completely changed the entire language used to find and use simple functions that were very well known and easy enough to find in prior versions, especially if the required features aren't on the "new beginners' list."

Your description of "start using it - discovering new features as I go along is great, if it works for you.

Unfortunately, for my uses of Word I have to be able to use many of your "new features" from the start. I don't have the luxury of stumbling on them later; and by arbitrarily renaming, regrouping, relocating, and separating functions that I use together so that I have to wander around through multiple unidentifiable menus located in strange places, they've made it very much more difficult for me to use Word 2007 for what I expect to do with it. Feedback among other professional/advanced users is that they universally have the same problems and objections.

This would not be quite so much of a problem if there was useful documentation of the changes, but most "above-beginner-level" functions require opening many separate web pages¹ (conveniently linked from the Word Help entires) and in effect wandering all over the Office 2007 web site to find what used to be single concise entries. KB articles typically are very specific about addressing a single topic in each article, so it's very rare to find one that addresses a "how to" in full.

¹ Without a web connection to pull "help files" from the Microsoft web site, as when I'm sitting in my camper waiting for a festival to start, Word 2007 Help files are almost useless, since the content for advanced methods isn't in the program or anywhere on your local machine. You have to look for scattered KB articles and/or "white papers" at Microsoft to get what few answers have been written, and the needs of advanced users are very sparsely addressed.

I also find multiple explanations of how to do setups that were common that consist of "you can't do that in Word 2007." I'm sure that there is something else I can do to get the same, or pretty similar, result, and eventually I'll find it; but they don't tell me what the new procedure is that they've arbitrarily (and not very rationally) provided to replace what many more proficient users have used in previous versions.

If there was an alternate program to seriously compete with Word previous versions for advanced professional users, I'd be looking at it. I know enough about the alternatives to know my preferences and what I expect, and there is no acceptable alternate for what I use Word to do.

I expect to be able to make Word 2007 do what I need, but I should be able to RTFM and get answers reasonably quickly. There is no Word 2007 manual for advanced users, which is essentially my only really serious objection².

² (Except that my scroll wheel still doesn't work, was reported by MANY USERS five years ago in Beta 2, and Microsoft has no fix for it in Word 2007 Professional. Maybe all three of my "Microsoft Brand" mouses are "incompatible hardware," but they don't tell me so, they're the only ones on the shelf at my suppliers, and Microsoft doesn't choose to tell me what to get instead.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Newport Boy
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:18 AM

JohnIK -just a clarification. I was referring to SmartSuite Millennium, not WinME, about which I know nothing.

Gulliver - The Lotus SmartSuite programs were not designed to be "different from Windows" - that's like saying that a Ford is designed to be different from a highway. They are different from the MS Office programs, and Microsoft have certainly made it difficult over the years for competing applications software to keep up to date with operating system changes.

That said - I still use the Lotus suite, and have not yet found anything that Word does and Word Pro doesn't. As far as database work is concerned, I can still develop from scratch a relational application with polished forms and reports using Approach in much less time than my more skilled colleague needs using Access.

However, the main reason for my choice is the price of the software. The Lotus version has always been well under 1/3 the Microsoft version. I have to buy all my own - the work I do is voluntary, and I get nothing back for software and hardware.

I have a few items of old software that I can't do without, particularly ExtraCAD, which I purchased for £35. It does almost everything AutoCAD does, and is small, quick to load and very efficient in use. Unfortunately, the last version in English is 1996, and Vista wouldn't like that. I will stick with WinXP until it's no longer viable.

Phil

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:27 AM

Worth reading this about Smartsuite http://www-1.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=899&uid=swg21253536

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:06 AM

The thing I've really found annoying when I've used Vista is that you just can't move around in it in the same way. They've taken away the little icon up the top that allows you to move up through different levels.

And there are too many changes in things like word that just seem chgaes for the sake of change. At times it's a bit like driving a new car where they've reversed the positions of the accelerator and the brake, or playing a left hand strung guitar.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 08:34 AM

Well the first thing that I did when I got Vista was to click on Start, Controll Panel.
Douible click on Taskbar & Start Menu.
In that dialogue box, click on the Start Menu tab.
Click on Classic Start Menu and then click on OK

Your Task Bar and Start menu will look like previous windows versions.

At least for those that have never done that, you can work like before.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Bee
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 09:31 AM

Like Ron, I've gone directly from 98SE to Vista Home Premium, and I've gone from a ten year old generic 10G, 128 RAM computer to a HP Pavilion 320G, 2000MB RAM computer. Vista has a learning curve and I agree the language leaves a lot to be desired. I find files get copied without my wanting them copied, and files often seem so thoroughly linked to their copies that trashing a file you think is redundant may erase all copies of that file. I need to figure this out.

There's also a problem with .doc files - Vista doesn't like them, and I've had to save such files as RTFs to open them at all, and then they open with a page or so of code top and bottom. This happens with emailed Word and Office files, and with transferred Wordpad files from 98SE (but my Wordpad was experiencing problems on the old system anyway). However, Word Perfect9 files are not a problem, and a friend installed WP9 on her Vista machine, where it has been running with no issues at all. I found a shareware fix for the .doc problem, but haven't installed it yet.

Vista support is terrible, I hope it gets better. HP support, however, has been stellar.

Overall, though, I really do like Vista. And, just last night I switched to high speed (wonderful!). The package came with CD and two installation instruction booklets for anything but Vista. The Vista instructions were a single sheet with hardware connection instructions. It took me all of three minutes to connect cables, install modem, and get online.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 10:11 AM

Before this idiotic proliferation of operating systems, a program was a single file. If you needed to move it to another machine, you just copied it. And when you backed up your stored info, you could also back up your programs.

Just try that, with his "modern" software.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 10:30 AM

"The problem is that they've completely changed the entire language used to find and use simple functions that were very well known and easy enough to find in prior versions, especially if the required features aren't on the "new beginners' list." "

The problem is, people are stuck in the past. You forget what it was like to use a calculator, typewriter, or other devices that were in use before computers. There is a proliferation of systems to give you choice and to meet different requirements. A MAC is great if your intent is to do graphics or media work primarily. PC's are great for accounting, database and other features - and all can do whatever you wish.

If you wish to run old programs, use an old computer! There is no need to upgrade unless your computer crashes. I would not expect to find another Studebaker if I walked into a showroom today.

I found it incredibly simple to move files from one machine to another with Vista.

I would hate to hear the grumbling if we only had one choice. Pick and choose, it ain't hard!   

I have not had any significant problems with Vista, and the benefits have outweighed any inconvenience. I highly recommend Vista.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 10:56 AM

There is no need to upgrade unless your computer crashes.

If you are connected to the Internet, you should be wanting to have your system's security upgrades. At some point, these will no longer be supported for an older operating system.

If you get other new hardware, eg. a printer, you might find drivers are not available for your older operating system.

My main Windows usage stopped with Win 2000 which I didn't think was bad. I did get Vista Home Basic on a new laptop. I've only played with it briefly and I think it's cut down and that Win 2000 was better. Vista's only function for me at the moment is to allow me to check a website works with IE7.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: GUEST,John J
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 10:58 AM

My computer network and software I use for work run under win98SE. It all works fine, I have no need and no wish to 'upgrade' - why fix it if it ain't broke?

On the other hand I do recognise that more complex operating systems may be needed for certain applications. In the meantime I'll continue using my outdated OS, with it's outdated Office '97, and it's outdated Sales / Purchase / Stock Control / Accounts programme. It does what I need.

Just my thoughts on the discussion.

JJ

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: GUEST,funfun goodlife
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 02:08 PM

On a car would you fit a 1998 cylender head to a 2007 model

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: danensis
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 05:30 PM

Certainly Dell are now offering "downgrades" to XP for people who have bought Vista and found it unsuitable.

Of course, sensible people are upgrading to Linux. Vista must be the biggest promotion for Linux in years. Most of the people who whinge about Linux haven't tried the latest distros, which just load up and go.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 05:54 PM

My router died - again - this week. I'm going to replace it and probably get a different type (was using a Netgear router, because when I replaced one with the same product I didn't have to set up my network again.) But I'm strongly considering wiring the computers into the next router. It would save some headaches. I'll try setting the printers on the wireless connection, though.

Here's hoping that the software supporting the router has gotten more user friendly. . . (It takes work to go through and set it up so it doesn't broadcast that it's here, that it only communicates with the devices I tell it to, etc. The default settings in the past have been for wide-open non-secure use.)

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 06:58 PM

Picking on simple ones:

There's also a problem with .doc files - Vista doesn't like them,

This is not exactly a Vista proglem. It's an Office problem, although the two do sort of go together.

All Microsoft Office programs have been converted to new file formats. The new "document" has file suffix .docx, templates are .dotx, but if a template includes a macro it's a .docm, etc. Similar "different" formats are used with new Excel, Project, etc.

If you have a new Office set that came with Vista, you may still need to visit the Microsoft Office Update site and get the export filters to convert .docx files to .doc that older programs can use. The new programs should automatically import .doc and will attempt to convert them to .docx when you save. If you're using an older Office version on Vista, you will need the import filters that are available, also from Office Update, that allow older versions to import the new .docx files.

You may be able to get the filters needed at Microsoft Update by choosing the "Custom Install" and looking through the "Optional Updates" that don't install automatically, although going directly to the applicable Office Update site is likely to get a better explanation of what you're getting.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 08:19 AM

Actually, a small obsolete box can be loaded with linux and used as a router, as well as many other gadgets such as firewalls, media centres, etc. Some small distros are even setup to do that.

Of course you do need to learn how to do it, unlike a dedicated commercial box...

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 08:39 AM

It seems vista is set to obsolete some more. Microsoft warns on Vista update

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 08:59 AM

Yeah, Jon...and one of the programs that Vista SP.1 kills is Zone Alarm 7.1, which is my security program. Quel bummer!

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 03:50 AM

There has been quite a lot of discussion about Vista SP1, and it's been delayed by Microsoft concerns about impact on profits users.

I'm not sure that the effect on "third party programs" is as well-sorted as some of the reports have indicated.

Microsoft says (speaking from the left-facing face) that lots of things will be unusable after SP1.

Microsoft says (speaking from the right-facing face) that most things can be made to work, but may require reinstallation after SP1 is installed.

Microsoft says (speaking from the other-facing "face") that some things must be uninstalled before installing SP1 in order for reinstallation after SP1 is installed to be possible.

I hope that's all clear to everybody now....

Apparently Vista SP1 will disable quite a few "legacy drivers" and some programs.

Many of the older drivers can be reinstalled after SP1 is in place and can be "forced into working" but details are still scant.

For some of the programs it may be possible to reinstall after SP1 is in place, with setup to "'run as' in an earlier Windows version." This "run as" option has been around since Win2K and WinXP. It "sort of" worked in those programs, but there's little indication of how well it will work in Vista. It is likely that some programs that can be "run" may have some features disabled - i.e. they'll stagger and limp, and you can call it running if you wish.

The BBC list is probably up to date with current Microsoft information; but it's hard to tell which face they were talking to.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 04:10 AM

Yer bein SUBTLE again John...

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 05:49 AM

You mean I should have come right out and said that you're supposed to get the best feeling about what comes out of the "other-facing face" 'cause it has the prettiest fat rosy cheeks?

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 05:33 PM

Zone Alarm 7.1.218.0, available as an update, is supposedly immune to Vista's "fix".

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Gurney
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 06:20 PM

I had no trouble getting Works (97) and Publisher 97 to work on XP. I just installed new variants that my son had, and that seems to have provided what was missing.

Maybe that would work for others. I don't use the new ones, all my templates are on the old ones.

Someone gave me an old W98 computer that I use just for the scanner. No driver for any OS younger.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 11:58 PM

Most of the programs on the list are protection programs that interact very closely with the inner workings of Windows. Most of them are subscription programs that are updated on a daily or weekly basis by their manufacturers, anyhow.

So far, I'm not convinced this "incompatibility" with Vista SP1 is a big deal.

And although I like Windows Vista, I've been having some very good luck with Windows XP lately. At the Women's Center, we had a donated computer that didn't work. The operating system disk was lost, but there was a Windows XP sticker on the computer. I reinstalled XP from the disks from another computer, and used the number on the sticker to get it activated. Then I dowloaded and installed Service Pack 2. Now it's the fastest computer in the office.

We had another computer with XP that was very sluggish. I opened the install/uninstall programs list, Googled all the programs I didn't recognize, and then uninstalled all unnecessary programs - particularly old "toolbars" that seemed to be clashing wiht Internet Explorer - and I added a gigabyte of RAM. Works like a charm now.

But I still prefer my dual core CPU with Windows Vista, 4 GB of RAM, and 1.5 terabytes of storage. And I continue to have no serious problems with Windows Vista.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 08:43 PM

A different question under the same heading. What do we do with old software? I have older versions of various programs, was getting ready to pitch them, and thought I would ask here before I do. Any value to them? Advice what to do with them?

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 08:56 PM

It depends, Mick...if you have any idea they might be useful to some charity somewhere....kids who get used computers can often make good use. It really depends on HOW old and what categories. I have perfectly useful programs that are 4-5-6 years old.

It also depends of whether they are payware programs that are, or need to be, registered. Those can be a problem. ('access denied'.. or die after 30 days..etc.)

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 04:10 AM

Ever tried getting file sharing to work between vista and xp machines? Vista is crap.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 05:42 AM

It's certainly true that some people have no trouble with Vista, but many do, and generally it's the more computer savvy, who want more than stock actions who suffer.

I think the definitive overall verdict on Vista has been amply demonstrated by two actions:-

1. The fact that many computer suppliers advertising Vista equipped PCs offer a downgrade to Windows XP Pro as an optional extra.

2. The almost unbelievable speed with which Microsoft produced Windows 7, possibly remembering the unqualified Abortion that was Windows ME.

To me, those events speak very loudly of disquiet, among both Manufacturers and Retailers, as to the useability of Vista.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 05:48 AM

BTW, a question about the thread topic.

In producing Vista, have Microsoft taken out the "compatibility" option, which allows me to run Windows 95 era software in XP, and even some old Dos 6.0 games?

That would, if present, presumably allow the OP to run his software as if working on his old PC.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: GUEST,Fumblefingers
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 12:29 AM

Windows 7 is supposed to be all the things that Vista isn't. My granddaughter's PC has Vista and I hate it. I'm keeping XP Pro as long as possible.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:03 AM

Yes, XP Pro with no updates to mess it up.

Subject: RE: Tech: Outdated Software
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:25 AM

Don't believe all the hype about Windows 7. I've got it running on 3 machines. It is just Vista with some stuff removed. It doesn't have photo/video editing or windows mail (these can be downloaded) you can turn Internet explorer and UAC off. It has the "wonderful" media centre which is supposed to allow you to record TV - However if you live in the UK you you can't record TV streamed from yhe internet (BBC iplayer etc)! You have to plug an external tuner in! It is a matter of "Get less for your money" or simply Vista Service pach 2 at a price!