Pianos In Folk Music

Subject: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:24 PM

I don't like 'em.........discuss

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:30 PM

They are much better than Banjo's :-)

I think its great to hear somebody playing piano and singing a folk song.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Maryrrf
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:31 PM

Count me as one that doesn't particularly like them although they can sometimes work. Usually not my taste.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:32 PM

it depends how they are played.
on one of my albums Cheating The Tide,I had a superb pianist called Sam Richards.
I think they can also work very well in Ceilidh Bands[ eg Reg Hall].Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:33 PM

An out-of-tune battered pub upright piano was always the focal point of the earliest singing sessions I remember as a kid.

....and, you can put your beer on them too:)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:35 PM

Bruce Hornsby and Ricky Skaggs recently released a CD. The bluegrass community generally thought it was "no part of nuthin' " but I liked a lot of it.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:37 PM

It depends on the context - in Cape Breton fiddle music a piano is just the thing. For a sea chantey not so much.

Dan

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:42 PM

Ah! But hev ye ever heard 'Old Brown Dog' by Ralph McTell? - A work of pianistic art and the song just wadn't be the same just on guitar.

That's the ownly one that springs te mind immediately but give uz a minnute and aah'll find more

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:43 PM

I personally do not like piano accompaniment for traditional tunes !

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:47 PM

I like this one June Tabor

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:47 PM

(I'm speaking of instrumental bands here, not solo singers who use piano backing because that varies so much depending upon the artist): I don't like them 95% of the time because they're so often unimaginatively played by people who simply bash out the same three vamp chords, which dominates tonally and doesn't take any real skill to do. I like keyboards to be subtle, interesting, to be able to carry the melody instead of ONLY chording along, and to not take over.

Pianists I like (these are only the ones I can think of off the top of my head at the moment, so this is not a comprehensive list - there are others too):

Micheál Ó Súilleabháin

Kevin O'Reilley (??I think that's his name) in the band North Cregg

Paul Machlis, who plays sometimes with Alasdair Fraser

Another Irish fella with a very straightforward name - so straightforward I can't remember it, Pat Something? He just put a record out a few months ago which has been aired on Irish radio.

Reg Hall, as Dick has already mentioned.

There are certainly more - but sadly they're outnumbered by piano accompaniments that I hate. Never heard Belinda but she sounds like one of the good 'uns.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:53 PM

And this one June Tabor

And this one June Tabor

Blimey, to think that about 16 years ago, I saw June Tabor live, and didn't like her at all. How time can make you change your viewpoint. I am pleased to say. :-)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 02:07 PM

it's too heavy to pack around on your back. No strap would work. Capos would be too expensive to fashion. You couldn't carry this on your back while schlepping down a railroad track singing "Goin' Down This Road Feelin' Bad".

It generally is played so loud that it drowns out acoustic voices. You need sound reinforcement to carry it (not folklike).

It sounds the best on show tunes, some pop tunes, some originals, and some blues ala
Ray Charles or rock ala Jerry Lee Lewis. Elton made it sound good on his first album.
A Bachrach song needs a piano IMHO.

Folk? It's hard to integrate it into an acoustic ensemble. It sounds good in a Contra-Dance band, though. Keeps the dancers on their toes (so to speak). I think of Yvan Breaux with Heritage who really made that thing talk for dancers.

It's great for jazz. Chord changes sophisticated and smooth and sets that mood.

In folk? I believe in simplicity. Sometimes an "um-plunk" sound best for a song because it doesn't get in the way. Simple piano tends to sound like "Chopsticks" but simple accompaniments on the guitar or banjo are more appropriate for folk songs.

Lieder or semi-classical arrangements of folk songs work (but not for "purists") but they don't sound folk-like. Schubert was kind of classical-folky. Many of his tunes became German Volklieder. Gotta' have Gerald Moore (great piano accompanist) and Fischer-Dieskau though. Nicht folky though.

Folk is accessible and I believe that the guitar and banjo are more accessible than the piano (which is so musically capable that in the hands of a beginner, it is most unwieldy).

There is a nightmare of four or five pianos playing folk music together although that number works fine with some guitar an acoustic string players.

88 versus 6, 5 or 12 (or 4) sort of says it. (Oh yes, 36 for autoharp)

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Little Robyn
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 02:45 PM

Johnny Handle in the High Level Ranters. He keeps things bouncing along, using the piano almost as a bass, when he's not playing his accordion.
I've seen him on an old piano that was a semitone out of tune and he just transposed onto the black notes and didn't miss a beat.
But I don't enjoy the semi-classical 'folk songs in evening dress' stuff.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:04 PM

Horrid Horrid Horrid on English folk music (1954 def) and even most nu-folk and neofolk.

They can ruin even June Tabor's singing (which is wonderful). They spoil Carol King.

There was a rather good band (I forget who) at Ely 2007 - and then the effing piano came thundering in and ruined it and my friends all laughed 'cos I stood up and said "Soddit it's a friggin piano I'm out of here" and left.

They ruin the two best Fairport original compositions ("Let her go Down", and the one about transportation to America - Virginny).

Irreplaceable for barrelhouse and boogie and boogie-woogie, great in the hands of Eddie Boyd, Champion Jack Dupree, Louisiana Red, and Doctor John - Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard - people who remember they are a percussion instrument - horrid in the hands of Christine Perfect (Chicken Shack) while still trying to play blues. Grand pianos are worse than uprights. Reg Dwight is wholly unlistenable to (with the possible exception of "Border Song", which nearly makes it as blue eyed soul).

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:11 PM

Depends on what you mean by "folk music." As always!

During the century or so immediately before the invention of audio recording, most people's experience of music, in homes and taverns and other places, involved the piano. Where no one able to play was available, there were player pianos. A whole lot of amateur singing-along occurred in gatherings around pianos. To me, that just about defines "folk."

On the other hand, my own current-day experience of the music most of us consider to be "folk" involves more portable instruments. In my (American) experience, the acoustic guitar has always seemed to be the definitive folk-music instrument. But since then, I've learned that some folks consider the guitar to be anethema to their conceptions of folk music: only fiddles, concertinas, and tin whistles need apply...

Each to his own. As always!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: mattkeen
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:17 PM

Huw Warren who usually plays with June Tabor is a marvellous player but at the risk of agreeing with some of the mad rantings of Richard, I do think that piano usually doesn't work in folk and I don't know why.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's piano playing Apprentice
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:21 PM

try telling that to Beryl Marriott and any number of excellent ceilidh bands currently doing the rounds....discuss

Charlotte (trying to keep her 88's straight)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Doc John
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:25 PM

I hate them in folk music and Frank Hamilton just about sums it up the reasons why they don't fit. They always remind me of why I was put off English folk music as a child: a plumby voiced sopranoes singing 'Greensleeves' or 'Blow Ye Winds Southerly' to piano accompaniment.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:33 PM

Hmm. I'd say that on the June Tabor links, the piano works fairly well. It seems to be unobtrusive and accompanies the songs rather than overwhelming them, which all too often, a piano (or pianist) will do. Harking back to the minstrel tradition, I've always thought that a small, portable instrument such as a guitar, lute, banjo, whatever, depending on the song, is best, but if tastefully done and in the right setting, a piano is--okay.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Curmudgeon
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:34 PM

'Plumby'? You're dragging the depths with that one.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:02 PM

Little Robyn thanks for reminding me about Johnny Handle an 'oldie' but a good 'un'!
I've heard him on a 'joanna' in a noisy bar have everyone singing along to Blaydon Races!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:27 PM

Johnny Handle was mentioned somewhere above.
I recall one year at Whitby Folk Week, in the original Spa balroom, the "goon squad" were setting out for the evening dance. They were moving a podium on castors with a grand piano to where it was needed.
Johnny Handle was at the time seated at the piano and continued to play throughout the move.
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:35 PM

"I hate them in folk music and Frank Hamilton just about sums it up the reasons why they don't fit. They always remind me of why I was put off English folk music as a child: a plumby voiced sopranoes singing 'Greensleeves' or 'Blow Ye Winds Southerly' to piano accompaniment."

well I do believe we've come a little further down the road since those days...a closed mind is terrible waste you know.

Charlotte ( looking at the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Gene Burton
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:46 PM

Must say, I LOVE Kathleen Ferrier's settings of English folk songs; most of which are accompanied on piano...but as in most cases I guess it's a question of what you do with the instrument, rather than the instrument itself...ANYTHING so powerful it swamps the vocal melody is counter-productive, but less is more...

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:49 PM

There is a track on Karine Polwart's new album (where she goe back to traditional stuff and not before time) which has a WONDERFUL piano accompaniment, using the fewest notes possible.

Michael Marra (who is no more folk than Leonard Cohen, but often features on the same bill as folkies) is somebody else who uses a piano very effectively.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:53 PM

June Tabor singin' John Tams' "Pull Down Lads"

Aah thowt 'Let Her Go Down' was a Steeleye song - Aah've gorrit on an album caalled 'Sails Of Silver' and the writing credits are Steeleye Span - not arr. Steeleye Span

Aaawww Look! Aah've been and gone an' become one of them buggaz what nitpick every thread - Aah hate that!

It's like name-droppin' - Aah cannit stand name-droppin'! - Aah wez just sayin' the same te Richard Thompson the other night!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:06 PM

I've always loved Kathryn Roberts''Plains of Waterloo'- her piano playing is a perfect accompaniment to a beautiful song.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:08 PM

Whoever's song it was (and yes I could be wrong) the friggin piano still ruins it!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,irishenglish
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:14 PM

Richard Bridge-Let Her Go Down, and Gone To America are by Steeleye Span, not Fairport Convention. Ditto to those who have mentioned Beryl Marriott, Reg Hall, and as played by Cape Breton musicians. As for the rest of you, I subscribe to the feeling that ANY INSTRUMENT can be used effectively on ANY GIVEN SONG or tune if the arrangement the performer uses calls for it. Take a well known song, say something like Star Of The COunty Down. Now I have heard that by everyone from Van Morrison to the Oysterband, and from harp players to lush string arrangements. Take your pick which version you like for yourself best, but what that proves is these songs are adaptable to many different arrangements and instrumentation. Last night I saw Richard Thompson's 1000 Years of Popular Music. The opening song of which I forget the title, he performed on hurdy gurdy. Later Judith Owen played a stunning version of Down By The Sally Gardens that was piano based, with sparse help from Richard and Debra Dobkin. I have heard that song many times, but hands down, that will now be my favorite rendition, because in the hands of that performer, the song worked with piano. This brings me back to Tim Hart's famous quote about folk rock being as anachronistic to the folk movement as the guitar (Spanish) and the banjo (African). Does piano always work-no it may not, but then again, maybe what a song needs is not fiddle or accordion as well. BOttom line, if it works, it works and you know it when it does!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Murray on Salt Spring
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:18 PM

To accompany a SONG, the piano has to be discreet. In an ensemble, like our old Schiehallion band, it's very useful, if not indispensable. It is a percussion instrument, and for dancing helps the beat (bass, drums, e.g.). I like to think the way I played, sometimes taking the melody, sometimes playing a counter-tune, or even just running arpeggios up and down, varied the sound appropriately. To accompany a rouser of a chorus song, it's pretty good I'd say. But it's true that as the sole accompaniment of a folk song it can intrude terribly.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: BTMP
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:22 PM

At the beginning of the movie 'Songcatcher', there is a beautiful rendition of 'Barbara Allen' accompanied only by piano. It's in the traditional arrangement and quite moving. I play guitar and mandolin and can make some chords and other sounds on the piano (I really can't play). From my perspective, because I can't play the piano like I can the guitar, I admire a well-played tune on the piano. Also, playing accompaniment is more difficult than just playing a melody from sheet music. Most folk and bluegrass musicians cannot play the piano, but it is a gift just as playing the guitar is.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:39 PM

well...some like the piano and folk, and some don't, that's the way of the world....

Charlotte (trying to remember the words to that grand old song, When Father Papered The Parlour)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:46 PM

One day I'm going to write a post about my Mom but for now, take my word for it she could have made it easily as a concert pianist. I grew up listening to her and it took many years before I had the ability to understand just how incredible she was. For now let me say that her playing taught me the one sure thing I could find with great pianists......their sense of "touch."

A piano is a percussion instrument and unlike it's forebear the dulcimer, the sound is created through a multi-piece mechanism. This makes it easy to play badly and loudly. But when you find someone who has learned to overcome this drawback and make the instrument capable of a variety of differing sound levels and can make those changes between them without effort but with feeling, you've found a great pianist. And when you find one with a passion for traditional tunes, dance tunes, pop tunes............well for one thing, you may have stumbled upon Jackie Schwab.

You might know her even if you don't. Have you noticed all the piano work in the soundtracks of almost every Ken Burns documentary? Or did you miss it because it flowed in and out and around and through and above and below without any sense of being obtrusive? That is touch and that is Jacqueline Schwab. Here are two YouTube videos using her for the music. Have a listen........

Johnny Has Gone For A Soldier

Battle Cry of Freedom

Now take your simpleass bullshit opinions that pianos have no place in folk/trad and toddle off somewhere else.   

Spaw

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Gene Burton
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:52 PM

"Now take your simpleass bullshit opinions that pianos have no place in folk/trad and toddle off somewhere else."

But people WILL insist in expressing views contrary to your own (such temerity!)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:55 PM

Charlotte, stop being so.........reasonable!

"They always remind me of why I was put off English folk music as a child: a plumby voiced sopranoes singing 'Greensleeves' or 'Blow Ye Winds Southerly' to piano accompaniment."   

Yep, and though I try, I just can't get away from this! and plumby is the right description.

I'm not saying the piano totally ruins every song or arrangement but it rarely enhances it, as for the June Tabor examples.....these are great performances by June but I would like them more with a different accompaniment......

but then I play banjo...ho, hum.

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:57 PM

^^Of course they will.....that's what Mudcat is all about!!! Lines like that are simply the fun of the place and to be taken with less than a grain of salt!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:03 PM

Spaw, for clarity, I started the thread by saying I don't like pianos.....not that they have no place in folk music.

Now, where are my chips (fries to some) to put that grain of salt on?

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:12 PM

Still in the fat Paul, still in the fat...............

Spaw(;<))

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:13 PM

Now, while we are nitpicking, it's "plummy" not "plumby". The former denotes fruit, the latter a heavy metal.

I still hate pianos, except in the places and styles I mentioned above. Actually, maybe I can tolerate them in music hall (eg "When Father papered teh parlour" as above) too.

I have known people who liked the tinkling noises made in "sophisticated" bars, but they just made me want to leave and find some music.

It's not about "appropriate". I just hate the damned things, except on good thumping honky tonk and boogie. And some rock and roll (eg the Viscounts' hammering version of "Shortnin Bread").

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:15 PM

Richard,

exactly these sort of voices go down like a lead balloon............

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:33 PM

Oh, or a Zeppelin or butterfly?

Unless you use them like percussion, and hit the vox hard enough to get over them, pianos are genteel. Hyacinth Bucket.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:56 PM

True enough the piano is an instrument with a fair history in folk song. That doesn't mean you have to like it though. I rarely do, outside of barrelhouse and such.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:42 PM

>>except on good thumping honky tonk and boogie. And some rock and roll (eg the Viscounts' hammering version of "Shortnin Bread"). <<

Richard
I love Jerry Lee lewis, Fats Domino,Floyd Kramer,even Neil Sedaka with "I Go Ape" etc etc. That is where my love of music is. The piano is a great instrument.

However, I just love people who can play the piano sensitively as well. Spaw put some lovely examples up there and I think I did with June Tabor.

I hate modern jazz piano.

Elton John when he plays his slower numbers plays some beautiful numbers. One of my favourites of his is "The boy in the red shoes" - I think it is that.

Bad Penny Blues is a great number.

The piano does not suit everything and has its place.


Kathleen Ferrier, I do not like but she does one absolutely beautiful number (I don't think there is a piano in that) and its called "What is Life" and that song bring tears to my eyes as much as any sentimental folk song I have ever heard.

At the end of the day, "blinkered" sometimes springs to mind

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 12:45 AM

WONDERFUL instrument.

BENJAMINE - Perhaps, you don' lik em because one keyboard can replace five other players.

Personally, I prefer the full bucket rather than sharing but we each have our different gigs.

It is my guess, that "Super Bowl Weekend" is the slowest five days of the year for American musicians....unless your last name begins with T Timberlake, Turner, Art Thieme, Tagger

From fiddle to bass, from harmonica to rhythm, it is ALL under YOUR control.

I like em.

Sinerly,
Gargoyle

COUNT 8 against 26 in favor

Motion by Benjamin denied.

DUHHHHH - Richard Bridge 6:33 - the piano IS a percussion instrument!!!!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:57 AM

"it's too heavy to pack around on your back."
Sadly - no longer the case. My heart sinks when I see a keyboard being hauled in to our local sessions. Was devastated when I heard Peggy Seeger was using one
Have been desperately searching for an album of one of Ireland's finest fiddlers, Martin Byrnes, without a heavy-handed piano driver.
This is somewhat reminiscent of the bodhran thread.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 03:24 AM

Do some reading Garg. As I said earlier, it is a percussion instrument. Use them as such.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 03:35 AM

Luckily for the rest of us, some people choose not to do so and extend the versatility.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:30 AM

Gargoyle,

Thanks for bringing the world democracy.....just like George Bush huh!

(Hee, hee, hee)

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:10 AM

Going by the Noel Hill LP I mentioned in another thread, I'd have to say Charlie Lennon is good.