concertinas in folk music

Subject: concertinas in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 06:47 PM

I like them...discuss.

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 07:13 PM

English better for song accompaniment than Anglo?

Kitty

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: GUEST,the button
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:46 PM

See, I've heard that before, and I really can't see it myself. Not saying that the anglo is better, like (even though I do play one). OK, so the english is fully chromatic, but then a 30-key anglo is just about playable in any key, and one with over 30 buttons definitely is.

There are/were some superb anglo song-accompanists out there -- Peter Bellamy, John Kirkpatrick (especially the stuff he recorded with Sue Harris), Louis Killen.

I can't really say that the anglo is more intuitive full stop, but it certainly is for me.

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Rowan
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:58 PM

Dick, did you really want us to discuss the fact that you like them?

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: GUEST,the button
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 09:04 PM

I agree with Dick. I like singing to the accompaniment of one, too. Even though my 'tina has quite a soft tone (wooden-ended Lachenal), singing with a 'tina makes you project, even when played quite softly.

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 02:49 AM

English better for song accompaniment than Anglo?


See, I've heard that before, and I really can't see it myself. ……….

The problem that I find with accompanying yourself on an anglo is that, while the song needs a certain amount of breath control, pulling and pushing doesn't necessarily coincide with where you want to breathe in and out. You have to choose your songs and it requires a fair amount of concentration. Not really the best for a relaxed performance.

DC

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: treewind
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 03:09 AM

Re song accompaniments: how many concertina players have a choice?
Keith Kendrick is one of the few people in the world who can play both English and Anglo systems well, and he mostly uses the English for songs and the Anglo for tunes.

On the other hand, amongst concertina systems I play Anglo only, and use it mostly for song accompaniments these days, and Mary plays English, and uses it mostly for playing tunes now. But with respect to Doug's post - I'm not singing while I'm playing, except for the odd simple chorus.

The English concertina has the advantage of being reasonably easy to play in any key. As usual there are exceptions - Harry Scurfield told me he has one song he sings in B major (yes, five sharps), accompanied in that key on a C/G Anglo. It just happens to work well that way, he said.

Anahata

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: the button
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 04:08 AM

Doug -- I know what you mean. There is a tendency to breath in & out in time to the bellows. Another temptation (maybe because melodies are so damned easy to pick out on the anglo) is to accompany yourself by playing the tune on the right hand (with chords/countermelody on the left) and just sing along with the tune. This can be a little monotonous, although it's good for chorus songs, so the audience have a tune to follow for their bit.

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Fidjit
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 04:18 AM

It's a matter of what have you got. I only have an anglo so I use that. (er Along with Guitar, Melodeon and voice only)
I did try an Duet , but couldn't get my head around it. (No jokes please.)

But well This guy can play

Chas

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 07:17 AM

Button.
Louis Killen plays the English,there are good accompanists on all three systems.

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: the button
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 07:38 AM

Cpn -- of course he does. How foolish of me.

I've never (knowingly) heard a duet.

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 07:39 AM

I'm sure that the English/Anglo thing is just how your head is wired up. I've lived with an English player for 20 years now and had an English sitting there for me to try out, but I still can't play a scale on a English. She can just get a tune on an Anglo, so on that basis the Anglo is easier to play:)
We both can't get on with a Maccan Duet, though I can manage a scale on that.
I'm find it interesting that quite a few English player (and Duet players) play the melodian. I find the melodian limiting as compared to a 30+ button Anglo. The best chords are missing!

Robin Madge

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: GUEST,tony geen
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 07:45 AM

I agree with the Captain - I like'em too. They make you think about what you're doing more than other instruments do.

I play a duet. No real problem getting the hang of it, but it took a couple of years to really get going.

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 08:22 AM

button ,Tim Laycock,he is on Boxing Clever,a Concertina cd,available athttp://www.dickmiles.com
Iris Bishop,RalphJordan,MichealHibbert,GavinAtkin,JeanMegly, DickMiles[although English is my first instrument,I have recorded with it].

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 11:06 AM

In my opinion,one of the important things on the English Concertina ,when playing tunes is avoiding sludginess.
listening to the sound one produces,and getting seperation between the notes,is important.
Song accompaniment[on the EC] is quite challenging,IMO a good knowledge of chords and harmony can help.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 11:53 AM

I dont know if this helps anyone,but when I ,I am practising tunes,I often play with a metronome,this makes me listen.I use the following settings, 147 hornpipes,Jigs 115,Reels 103[206]IrishPolkas 140.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Bernard
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 11:59 AM

Well, I like 'em, too!

Not sure I understand the question of breathing in time to the bellows, as I've never experienced the problem. Mind you, I play Anglo, English, Piano Accordion and Melodeon, so maybe that's why.

Thinking about it, quite a few of the songs I do involve holding a fairly long-ish note whilst changing bellows direction a few times - perhaps this could be used as a practice technique if you do experience the problem? Just a thought.

There seem to be two types of player (whether Anglo or English)... those who only play single note melodies, and those who 'fill in the chords' (as I do). Anyone else noticed this?

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Alan Day
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 12:13 PM

I have been compiling Anglo International (now released) and English International(to be released shortly) and this is definitely the case.There are many players out there who play one note at a time and some are brilliant at it,but a compilation 3CD collection of both systems require to present different styles,this is the hard part.
Al

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 12:45 PM

WELL,When I play the English and the Duet,I do not use my air button.
however I know that Tim Laycock uses his air button a lot when he plays Duet,likewise my partner Cathy Cook,who plays anglo,uses her air button a lot,as can be heard on the new concertina cd,Concertina and,
This recording features English and Anglo Concertina,Harmonica and Harmonium,oh and voice.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: GUEST,irishenglish
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 12:57 PM

Pardon me, and I don't mean to be offensive to anyone, but why didn't this thread start off as a technical discssion of the concertina? I love concertina, and to be honest, its an instrument I tend to think of as specifically a folk instrument! I know about the piano in folk music thread currently going on here, and given my own answer, but Dick, since you are a very able player yourself, I find the question a bit odd. It seems like this has gotten into a tech aspect amongst you concertina players anyway, but I don't think on this forum you will get the kind of divisiveness about a concertina as you will get on the piano-apples to oranges. Again, not picking a fight here, just an observation, Cheers, irishenglish

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Surreysinger
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 12:58 PM

Hesitatingly, I'll say "I like 'em" too ... hesitatingly as I'm only about six weeks into learning to play (in my case a duet) ... but I have to admit that I'm finding it addictive ... it seems to have taken over when I REALLY should be doing other things at the moment :-(

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 01:00 PM

Surreysinger,What kind of duet do you have?

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Surreysinger
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 01:03 PM

A loaned Maccann ....

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Surreysinger
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 01:12 PM

I meant to say ... blimey Dick... are you sitting on your computer, as that was a really speedy response!!

And in response to irishenglish, having read your post, I'm not too sure what your concern is... the title doesn't suggest that Dick intended this to be a technical discussion - in fact I would have said that both the title and Dick's opening post were extremely general which rather gives everybody the leeway to discuss whatever they like about the subject ... which at the moment seems to be ranging from general - yes I like them, through to "I play one of these" to Dick's more recent technical observations ... which on reflection might actually be veering off topic ... but then it's his original thread, so I suppose he's entitled [grins]

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: GUEST,irishenglish
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 01:18 PM

Merely to say that Dick used the same thread topic as the pianos in folk music thread, which as you can see, has been pretty divisive, so if he was looking for that with concertinas, the results won't be the same. Again, just an observation. Cheers

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Surreysinger
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 01:19 PM

Ah - didn't bother to read that thread (as I hate pianos in folk music most of the time, and the subject matter didn't interest me) ... so now I can see where you're coming from (to use a rather horrible phrase!!) .Thanks for the enlightenment!

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: GUEST,irishenglish
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 01:23 PM

Cheers surreysinger, and above all good luck with the playing! I've heard some tracks from Dick, and I hope he understands that I do genuinely think he's a good player!

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 01:31 PM

no, I didnt intend this thread to be devisive.
but seeing the other title inspired me,any excuse to talk about concertinas.

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Surreysinger
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 01:37 PM

"any excuse to talk about concertinas."
LOL!!

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Fidjit
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 01:41 PM

Yes surreysinger doing other things. Like remarking to my "Climate warming" song on your myspace site

Chas

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: GUEST,aeola2
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 04:21 PM

fascinating!! one button at a time, left hand melodies, right hand rhythm, duets ( two at a time ha ha ) breathing with the pull and push, makes my pathetic attempts to play and sing at the same time seem quite simple. Still I do enjoy it and it is addictive. and easy to carry around!!

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Surreysinger
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 05:31 PM

Sorry Chas - didn't I reply to that - thought I had ??

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 05:47 PM

Breathing in time with the bellows is something many novice anglo players find hard to avoid, but with practice it should be possible to break the habit. Singing along with the concertina would probably help with this.

A good rule with any instrument when it comes to accompanying songs is to keep the accompaniment simple enough so that you can devote most of your attention to the song. If you find you're having to focus on playing the instrument you won't be able to put the song over properly.

I'm an anglo player, but I was first inspired to take up the concertina by listening to the late Tony Rose accompanying himself on English. I've heard all three systems used very effectively for song accompaniment.

Howard

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 09:37 PM

Get the song sorted out first. That way the breathing should take care of itself. After all, the lungs aren't physically linked to the bellows! I can't remember ever having this problem, but I had been singing with and without instruments for a few years before I started on Anglo.

I have noticed that if someone asks me a question while I'm playing a tune (It doesn't often happen, but sometimes people have the unreasonable expectation that I will know the names of the pieces I play) I would have to stop playing before engaging in speech - whereas I have heard Alistair Anderson give quite complicated introductions to tunes while actually playing at the same time - is he able to do this because he doesn't sing, or is there another part of the brain available which I haven't discovered yet?

Ross

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Greg B
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 09:41 PM

Alf Edwards played English in a rather bouncy style behind the
appropriate songs on the old Lloyd/MacColl recordings.

Louie Killen learnt from him. In fact, he owns Edward's concertina.
I saw it meself and even had a go.

The problem with the English is the very layout itself. With every
other note on the opposite end, it is a bit of what the French
would call a 'casse-tete' (sorry, I haven't the keyboard to get
the accents right). There is a fundamental physiological left-brain-
right-brain problem which involves a rather narrow neural pathway
called the 'corpus callosum.'

For many (if not most) people, playing the English concertina
melodically can bugger up the proper operation of the speech
center--- makes it hard to sing. Even harder to speak. Hence,
what Rick Spence calls 'hexagon zombies.'

Playing chord-style seems easier--- the chords are one-handed
triangles.

The problem doesn't seem to exist with Anglo concertinas and
melodeons. The left-bass right-treble thing doesn't seem to screw
with the central nervous system quite so badly.

One of the problems with Anglo concertinas is that the most common
key combination is G/C with the G being a rather high, squeaky
sound. A lot of singers don't like 'em.

D/G is better for many; but D/G Anglo boxes are rather scarce and
expensive, at least in the vintage world.

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 11:04 PM

I use a G/D Anglo mostly singing in D, Em or Am. I do have a C/G Anglo as well, and although I could find those keys on it I find the balance of voice/instrument is better with the lower tones of the G/D. I started off on a Bb/F (the only thing I could find way back then), playing melody on the right hand and vamping chords on the left. This produces the typical Anglo bounce which is good for dance tunes but not always for song accompaniment.

Nowadays I tend to play on the draw, crossing the rows to get longer runs without changing bellows direction - still chording mostly on the left hand and melody/harmony on the right. The nearest I have heard to the sound I go for is Danny Spooner from Oz - he manages to produce a similar effect on English concertina. There's another player of that instrument who produces a similar sound - plays with Stormalong John - sorry, can't remember his name.

It seems to me that very few players on the English system make full use of the chording capabilities that others have described above (triangles). I can see it would be tricky to keep three buttons depressed and still have scope to hit appropriate melody notes with a fourth finger - is this why? You could just use two fingers for the chord - sometimes it's better not to fill out the chord completely, but leave a bit for the imagination.

Ross

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 03:49 AM

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 03:54 AM

Woops...
Type before sending!
Well, Duet is my baby. For me it's the only choice (Well I would say that, wouldn't I !!)
To my mind, all the various systems have thir merits.
English for speed.
Anglo for bounce (Hence their use for dance)
Duet for harmonic embellishment, (and speed, depending on your arthritis quotient!)
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Alan Day
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 03:59 AM

Sarah Graves,Damian Barber,Rainer Submilch play excellent accompaniment to their singing on the English.Iris Bishop already mentioned on her Duet accompanying Martyn Wyndham Reed, Gavin Atkin on his Jeffries Duet accompanying Julie Wells all excellent players.
All will be featured on English and Duet Internationals.
Al

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 04:11 AM

It seems to me that very few players on the English system make full use of the chording capabilities that others have described above (triangles). I can see it would be tricky to keep three buttons depressed and still have scope to hit appropriate melody notes with a fourth finger - is this why? You could just use two fingers for the chord - sometimes it's better not to fill out the chord completely, but leave a bit for the imagination.
Ross,Most people use three fingers[its easier to play standing up],standing up means you can use more easily wave the bellows [IMO].
if you use cross fingering[one note for each button],as I do alot of the time ,when playing chords,you can acheive both legato and staccato chords[it is not difficult at all].you
actually have six fingers available for chords[if you so wish]it is not always necessary to play the melody.
when I do play a melodic accompaniment,I try to keep the chording light,depending on the song, often using melody with one other harmony note.
I also play single line harmony with my voice singing melody.in fact I have about four different styles.
One song that I havent recorded commercially is on youtube BarbaraAllen[youtube dickmilesmusic]and is agood example of playing melody with accompaniment[Iam standing up and make considerable use of the bellows,including a broken slur[a break in the bellows movement without changing direction]it happened spontaneously.I probably couldnt repeat it
AlfEdwards was a very accomplished player but was[apparently]unable to busk]always had to have music,in my opinion being able to busk is important for accompaniment
DickMiles

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 05:30 AM

Al,English International is a long time coming.
Concertinas and, is now available from my website,featuring Anglo ,English, Harmonium,Harmonica,voice with concertina accompaniment at http://www.dickmiles.com
interesting that Loius learned from Alf,he has quite a different style,Peggy Seeger also learned from him,different again.
I taught myself song accompaniment,I believe Steve Turner is self taught as well.

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 09:06 AM

has anyone mentioned Michael Hibbert yet?

Fantastic style, great repertoire

Baz

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 10:07 AM

yes, I did here.Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 08:22 AM

button ,Tim Laycock,he is on Boxing Clever,a Concertina cd,available athttp://www.dickmiles.com
Iris Bishop,RalphJordan,MichealHibbert,GavinAtkin,JeanMegly, DickMiles[although English is my first instrument,I have recorded with it].

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 10:22 AM

I like the sound of them so much, that I engaged the services of a concertinista to play backup on a few songs on my forthcoming CD of sea songs. So there.

Seamus

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 11:38 AM

Rather than triangles for chords, I prefer to use low fifths and higher thirds, which makes for a less 'muddy' sound.

Example: Left hand low C and G, right hand higher C and E, with permutations of that for other chords.

A chord 'shape' that fits with the above: keep finger on left hand C and change G to higher F, whilst keeping finger on right hand C and changing higher E to lower A...

...if you follow my drift?!

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 09:09 PM

concertinista? Ain't been called that. Contortionist, yes, but back then I used to have a much more flexible approach to music.

Ross

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: JeffB
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:33 AM

I've been playing English system for a year, working out my own song accompanyments. Have no idea what it is like to play any other system. For anyone thinking about taking up the concertina and wondering (as I did) the merits of English v Anglo for song, I can say that the EC's fully chromatic abilities are irrelevant. C, D, F and G are easy keys to play on the English and very singers (or musicians for that matter) will want more.
With regard to Greg B's comment above (do you play Anglo, Greg?) that the chords are one-handed triangles : obviously if you can play these easy-peazy formations (? major triads) then you can also play 3rds and 5ths, but in practice playing chords including the other hand is as easy. In fact I found 4ths came very naturally and are an important part of my arrangemants. No problem with 6ths either, if ever you should need them. So it's not a question of playing trianglular major chords and trying to pick out a melody line with the 4th finger (that finger is in the finger slide helping to support the concertina!). Obviously, you can just play a suitable chord on the first beat of every bar, but it's not that much more difficult to intersperse melodic runs.
I have to disagree with Greg's theory of a left/right brain conflict. There are different conceptual functions between the two hemispheres, but the physical co-ordination involved in playing a musical instrument shouldn't be too much of a problem for most people who want to sing with it. Speech is a deeply estabished function from the age of 3 or 4, and singing also starts more or less naturally at an early age. I don't think that playing the English is inherently any more difficult than any other instrument, personal abilities aside of course. The desire to play and practice are the inmportant factors.

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:11 AM

as someone who has been accompanying himself on the English concertina since 1976,and someone who has produced two tutors which include some twenty song accompaniments,I would say this:onthe english concertina there are several approaches to accompaniment which can be successful.
1.single line harmony.
2,chords [which may or may not involve single line harmony runs].
3.melody line[putting early or delaying melody notes off or on the beat,and adding harmony so you have occasional two or thee voices]
4.melody with full accompaniment on the off beat,to get something similiar to a duet style[see my recordings of Ball of Yarn]
Finally Ihave avideo on youtube dickmilesmusic
Barbara Allen,Sallyfree and Easy,OnOne AprilMorning,these illustrate different approaches to song accompaniment.
I would advise listening to Killen,Tony Rose,Steve Turner,Keith Kendrick.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:19 PM

Gah, I am trying to write a paper, procrastinating by reading mudcat threads... but now I need to go pick up my English concertina and work on chordal techniques.

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: JeffB
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:06 PM

Students ! You young people NEVER get your priorities right. Why are you even THINKING about writing a paper when you have a concertina to play. Really ...

Subject: RE: concertinas in folk music
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:41 PM

In my young day, we had to do all our own procrastinating. It's so much easier now.

I'd agree with JeffB that if you have the song sorted in your head before concentrating on the accompaniment (whatever instrument you're playing), things usually fall into place fairly readily. Problems arise where you're trying to set up a complicated accompaniment (to show off your fancy fingerwork) and you haven't put the same effort into fixing the words in your brain. The inevitable conflict for resources can only mean that both the song and the accompaniment suffer.

Ross