BS: Joan Baez Endorsement of Obama - Feb 2008

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 03:04 PM

The moral panic about Horror Comics

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 03:15 PM

Thanks, McGrath. I remember it well, from my own family. My brothers did have some comic books which I also read. Surreptitiously. My mother was dead set against them.

We also had some 'Big Little Books', which we kids liked even better because of the characters and story lines. My mother didn't like those either. *g*

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 03:32 PM

Well Little Hawk, when you and I manage to calm down and listen to each other, it does appear that we can agree on things.

I'm with 100% on comic books. I grew up with and still read them.

I guess our individual experiences with television account for our different opinions. I think those of us who grew up with commercials learned to separate them from the story, and developed a fondness for them in fact. A lot of people watch the Super Bowl just to see the new ads that are debuted. There can be an artform to advertising, just as there is in print.

I agree with you about the storyline. What has become a new technological trend is the DVD box set of television shows - without the commercials. It becomes wonderful to watch a show without the interuptions.

The other item is that cable television has a number of channels without commercial interuptions such as HBO or Showtime.   I wasn't a fan, but I do see the value in programs such as The Sopranos. The writing and acting were superb.

I am also with you with your concerns about the government intervention with television and radio. De-regulation, which should have become a blessing, turned into the fiasco that you now see. The media is controled by a handful. I volunteer for a non-commercial radio station, but even in the non-commercial field I've seen a number of stations that have altered programming to accomodate the consultants who bring in CPB money. The FCC has limited freedom of speech.    The public outcry has been minimal, and it is a real issue in my estimation.

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 03:59 PM

Exactly my thoughts, Ron.

The DVD sets of TV shows are a great idea. I watched a whole lot of the early Sopranos episodes that way at a friend's place, and it was a brilliant show, I must say. Great to see it with no interruptions.

*****

As for the despicable Dr. Fredric Wertham and his 1948 crusade against the supposed dangers of comic books! Ye Gods, what a travesty!!! He would surely have felt at home sitting by the left hand of Dr Goebbels. People like Fedric Wertham are the most pernicious threat to a free and enlightened society. They are a curse upon civilization, in my opinion. They are the natural allies of the most oppressive forms of government know to humankind, and they would stifle every form of freedom and imagination if given the power to.

To think that the bastard started his dirty work in the very year that I was born! That means that practically every comic book I ever read as a child was printed under the shadow of his crazy witchhunt.

I always wondered why the older comics from the 30's (I've seen some of those) were so much grittier and livelier than the stuff that came later. This was specially noticeable with the older Mickey Mouse adventures, which were really swashbuckling, streetwise, and wonderful in the pre-1948 era. After '48 Mickey just became dull, dependable, nice-guy suburban Mickey, Mr all-around WhiteBread, and all the grit and exotic wonder of the old days was gone. The graphic art also suffered.

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 04:49 PM

Hell's bells, I grew up reading comic books! And Big-Little books.

People like the good Dr. Fredric Wertham grossly underestimate the fundamental intelligence of kids. Just because Superman could fly and bullets bounced off his chest didn't mean I didn't have a pretty good idea of what the real world is like. It was just an enjoyable fantasy, and I knew it at the time, as did all the other kids I knew. In fact, my favorite costumed crime-fighter was Batman, because he didn't have super powers. He was just very good at what he did (not a bad ideal to strive for!). They weren't that much different from the Sunday "funnies," which my Dad used to read to my sisters and me. Sunday morning ritual.

The only time my mother wasn't too happy was when an uncle gave me a big stack of pulp magazines he had finished reading (I was maybe 11 at the time). Amazing Stories, Astounding Stories, Planet Stories, etc. Other than Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon in the Sunday funnies, this was my introduction to science fiction. Probably what concerned my mother more than anything else were the cover drawings of buxom, scantily clad females being menaced by bug-eyed monsters (CLICKY #1 or CLICKY #2). But these magazines contained early stories (some of which have since become "classics") by such people as Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, Edmond Hamilton, Arthur C. Clark, and others who have become regarded as the Olympic Gods among writers of science fiction.

Reading these things undoubtedly had a strong influence on my lifelong habit of reading, which still includes science fiction, but covers a wide variety of literature: fiction, classics and otherwise, non-fiction, the works. This is why I'm tickled to see that lots of kids are currently deeply into the Harry Potter books. These things are tomes, and the kids are wolfing them down. When they finish them, they'll undoubtedly go hunting for other stuff to read, just like I did.

And, of course, Dr. Wertham has his modern counterparts in the many folks who are shocked and appalled at the subject matter of the Harry Potter books. Witchcraft and wizardry. Oh, Horrors!!

Give a kid something that stirs his or her imagination, and you have a reader for life. That's a good thing!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 04:55 PM

Incidentally, apropos of very little, it should be pointed out the The Sopranos was originally shown without commercial interruption. It was produced by HBO, a pay-cable outfit that does not broadcast commercial advertising.

(They do show a lot of promos for their own productions, but only in-between programs, never as "interruptions.")

Now that one of the "basic" cable stations has begun showing Sopranos reruns, making them available to folks who have not been HBO subscribers, commercials have begun to interrupt Sopranos episodes for the first time.

I would advise folks who haven't seen the adventures of Tony and family to rent the DVDs. Even though "seeing it wouthout interruptions" is not a novel development, it's the time-honored normal situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 05:01 PM

By the way, these days most television sets come with remotes, and every remote I've ever seen has a "MUTE" button. Mine gets a lot of work when I'm watching commercial channels--which I don't really watch all that much, spending most of my viewing time watching our local PBS affiliate. Actually, during the week, I watch one half-hour comedy on CBS. That's it.

I understand that ad agencies who deal with the broadcast industry are constantly trying to figure ways of getting around the "MUTE" button, or the "Fast Forward" button when people tape a show to watch later.

We subscribe to NetFlix and most of our couch-potato time is spent watching selected movies--or an entire television series, such as our most recent one:   BBC Scotland's "Monarch of the Glen." No commercials. Great series!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 05:48 PM

Yes, the "mute" button is a great idea. I just bet they are trying to figure out how to get around it.

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 05:53 PM

Speaking of the Grateful Dead and of endorsing Obama... the surviving members have done so.

Obama is billing himself as for the generation after the baby boomers - so what are all these aging hippies doing endorsing him?

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 06:01 PM

What do you want us to do...sit in our rocking chair and drool?

(just joking)

Look, we are the generation that was determined never to grow old! We will continue looking for another John or Bobby Kennedy until we drop dead in our tracks.

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 06:06 PM

Of course here we have the option of watching the BBC channels which don't carry commercials - and the extent to which programmes can be interrupted by commercials is restricted, both by regulations and by practical considerations. (Too many commercials and you rapidly lose viewers, and the advertisers don't like that.)

But in themselves the presence or absence of commercials doesn't determine programme quality directly - what does that is when those commissioning programmes are trying to drive up viewing figures by any means, and at the same time trying to drive down costs. You end up, for example, with a mass of overhyped and exploitative "reality" shows. And that's a process that can screw up programming even in the absence of adverts.They are quite useful for giving you a chance to get a snack in the middle of a programme of course.

And commercial breaks can be quite useful for giving you a chance to get a snack (for example) in the middle of a programme.

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 06:11 PM

"And commercial breaks can be quite useful for giving you a chance to get a snack (for example) in the middle of a programme."

No kidding! ;-) I bet that the connection between regular commercial interruptions and snacking has become a very significant factor in the sharp rise of obesity in the North American population during the last few decades.

Whereas...if you know ahead of time that a show is going to play straight through, and you're planning to watch it, well then if you really want to eat while you're watching it you just plan ahead and have your snacks ready at the start....like when you go to a movie and buy some popcorn and a drink. That is NOT a major challenge! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 06:34 PM

There's also the old bladder to take into account...

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 06:52 PM

True...

I have discovered that it's wise to deal with that before the movie starts. I don't think I've ever left a movie during the show on account of my bladder....except when I was a little kid. I don't want to miss any of it, not even 1 minute.

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: pdq
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 07:46 PM

"We will continue looking for another John or Bobby Kennedy until we drop dead in our tracks. "

Great statement. How true.

Trouble is, you folks keep thinking you found such a person but it always a mirage.

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 11:11 PM

Well, such people are damn hard to find. Specially at this juncture, because the political scene is centralized and choreographed from the top down to a greater extent, I think, than it ever was before...and the chances of a genuinely populist politician slipping through the big Dem-Rep net are, I think, almost nil.

Whether John or Bobby rated in that sense, of course, is debatable. I think Bobby might have. As for John, the thing that man had going for him was a very dynamic ability to inspire ordinary people both at home and abroad and give them hope for the future. That's not to be sneezed at. It can do much to give a nation confidence and a sense of purpose. It can do much to earn a nation respect overseas.

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Amos
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 11:27 PM

PDQ:

Some of us gauge on other criteria than pure mob-think, and manage to come up with better answers than your wrinkled and cynical jade of a brain does.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 11:27 PM

True, LH. Witness Canada with Trudeau. He inspired this country and gave us a sense of purpose we'd lacked since since the legitimacy brought to us by Lester Pearson.

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 09:36 AM

And speaking of Trudeau, Doonesbury is saying that Obama is the first black Kennedy...

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 10:19 AM

Yeah, Trudeau was really cool. He was the most interesting politician Canada has ever had, in my opinion.

Man, my parents just hated him! At any rate, my mother did...and she does to this day. She's a political junkie, completely absorbed in politics 7 days a week, and she tends to absolutely hate the politicians she's opposed to, rather than just disagreeing with them. In Trudeau's case, she hated him primarily because she thought that he brought about the destruction of the old Canada...the society she had known in her youth. What she failed to grasp, I think, is that it would have happened regardless of whether Pierre Trudeau had been there or not. It was inevitable.

I remember the old Canada...and I miss it too...but it was not to last. The decline of Great Britain's influence in the world, the rising dominance of the USA and American mass media, the flood of new immigration into Canada's big cities from the Third World, the changing demographic that resulted from that, and the rise of Quebec Francophone nationalism.............all of that would have happened whether or not Pierre Trudeau had ever become prime minister of Canada.

She figures it was his fault. ;-) This is giving the man way more power than any one man could ever have had, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Amos
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 10:19 AM

You know its True, deau. Even if its the other Trudeau.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: pdq
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 01:46 PM

People need to judge Obama by what he is not what they want him to be.

Seems to me that Obama has very few things he can point to as accomplishments.

He is more a Pop Culture star than a man of substance. Kinda like Zsa Zsa Gabor. You know he is famous but mostly for being famous.

To you philosophy majors:

    Can a man be a great orator when he has nothing to say?

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 02:14 PM

Obama is kind of a preacher. He has high idealism in his speeches but they are short
on substance. I don't agree with Hillary but she is more of an executive. Her health care
plan is better than Obamas.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 02:39 PM

And that is a matter of some concern. I just saw Michael Moore's "Sicko" a couple of nights ago (NetFlix) and comparing America's health care system (or lack thereof) with those in Canada, Great Britain, France, and several other countries is enough to make one--sicko!

People have lots of fun trashing Michael Moore, but I'm not going only on the movie. I have other sources of information as well, and what Moore said is substantially correct.

The health care system in this country is an absolute disgrace. Even moreso is the sleazy system that keeps it that way!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Amos
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 02:45 PM

This is just horse puckey. Obama is not a man with nothing to say. This sort of meretricious sardonic quip is exactly symptomatic of the reactionary thought patterns which we need to change; it is the stuff, in small, of Limbaugh and Hannity, the public sneer and the glib diss with no substance to support it and no genuine thought behind it. It is, in short, unworthy of a thoughtful AMerican citizen, just as Limbaugh's career is on a larger scale.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 01:56 PM

I'm finding something here and a couple of threads over a matter of concern.

One woman spends her working life in front of mass audiences pandering to the lowest common denominator, poking her nose into the sleaziest of situations, producing idiotic sloganising (eg "Talk to the hand, sister, the head ain't listening" - although that exact slogan could have been some other chat show hostess) - and generally encouraging people NOT to think.

Another woman spends her working life in front of mass audiences promoting the dignity of humankind, putting light on injustice and folly, with intelligent use of words, and generally encouraging people to think and consider others.

Yet the endorsement of the former is seen as a political bonus, but that of the latter as an albatross.

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 03:05 PM

You know how it is RIchard. The planets only look aligned if you are looking fromt he middle of Iowa. From a perspective on the left coast or the right coast theys eem badly out of line. :D

Joanie looks admirable from her general longitude, but when viewed from the Corn, Rust, or Jade belts, may be seen as seriously off to the left. :D (The Jade Belt is my name for the cynical mentalists who populate New York intellectual mags and major punditry shows .)



A

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 03:05 PM

Richard Bridge, you evidently don't know much about Oprah.

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 08:20 PM

I have (regrettably) seen her programmes once or twice. Other people were watching them but I was there. That was more than enough. Moronic voyeuristic daytime TV drivel. Worse than Robert Kilroy-Silk.

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 09:08 PM

Interesting where this thread has wandered.

So should people be encouraged to dare to hope that any leader can bring about change, whatever that means? It's an engaging train to board, and I'm sure that somewhere up ahead there is an engineer who knows where he is going. There is, isn't there?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: bankley
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 09:46 PM

just don't miss the boat while waitin' for a train..

Subject: RE: BS: Joan Baez Endorsement
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 10:12 PM

Joan's instincts were spot on in this case.

But there will be all kinds of defamation, slander, distortion, innuendo, gossip, rumor, lies and more lies and Big Lies between Obama today and a swearing in ceremony next winter. Make no mistake--they will not give him the high road, even if he seems to deserve it as much as anyone.

I am saying this in anticipation of a lot of smug know-it-alls coming out of the woodwork between now and November, with hot air steaming out of their ears and a bushel of horsepucky to sell.

And they will do tap-dances, barbershop, and backflips to make it credible and to try to lend impact to the slanders they are mongering. Mark my words.

When they come, I hope that honest people, people with clear thinking and the ability to cut through distortion, will have the courage to stand up and say it like they see it in defense of a good man. Because all that is necessary for slime-balls to triumph is that people of good will remain silent.


A