Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs

Subject: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: janemick
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 04:28 PM

Loss of supernatural story lines in American versions of British songs

Some years ago at a festival I heard Jeff Warner talking about the changes in song lyrics as they crossed the Atlantic. He said that the supernatural elements in British songs were often lost/removed by their American singers, often resulting in fairly meaningless versions of a song. I don't remember him giving any specific examples.

Does anyone know of any examples of these changes in storylines please?

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 04:37 PM

A number of American versions of "House Carpenter" omit all references to the demonic nature of the returned lover.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american son
From: janemick
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 04:56 PM

Thanks Russ, I'll have a hunt around and post any interesting changes

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Joybell
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 05:37 PM

Jane -- get hold of a copy of "The Ballad Tree" by Evelyn Kendrick Wells. Published in 1950. You'll find it in a library or second hand. It's well worth buying a copy. It explores this subject.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 05:40 PM

"It explores the subject."

Do you recall any reasons the songs would have been 'edited'? Puritan influence? That kinda thing?

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Joybell
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 05:49 PM

Hello Peace. I mean this book looks at the supernatural elements, cryptic and overt, within British and American ballads. It's not the only subject studied within it, but it's a good start.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Joybell
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:43 PM

Interesting comparisons can be made between versions of "The Suffolk Miracle" and versions of "Pretty Polly".
Demons and dead lovers became ordinary murderers on both sides of the Atlantic, in time, of course.

Changing times account for a lot of changes including the loss of Faeries, Dragons, Giants and Ogres. If a singer is not familiar with the belief system that surrounded the older ballad, they are easily dropped or replaced.

Their shadows linger in the old ballads, but they aren't obvious.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:45 PM

Thanks, Joy.

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:25 PM

Supernatural aspects were deleted from American singer's repertories because the nation was settled by puritans! That's it, pure and simple, from where I sit.

Once in a while though, a supernatural song motif will stay around in spite of that; as in one of my favorite songs of the lumberjacks---The Lost Jimmy Whalen. I included it on my cassette that I titled "ON THE RIVER." It is not on a CD other than one I made here at home with ALL of the songs and tales I ever did over the years that had that river connection.

In "Lost Jimmy Whalen" -- the ghostly Jimmy is summoned by his mourning lover and rises wearing "robes of red crimson" from the "depths of the river" where he drowned in a lumbering accident! The song should be in the Digital Tradition. If not, I'll post it. Anne Hills and Cindy Mangsen learned it from me and put it on one of their fine CDs.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american son
From: Amos
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:27 PM

Well, there are also counter-examples. "Teen Angel" comes to mind. ;>)


A

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:29 PM

Used to love that song. (It ain't folk though. -:))

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Kent Davis
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:53 PM

Here are some examples of songs that, in the Old Country, contained supernatural elements but that either are losing or have lost those elements, at least in these versions. All are taken from Dr; Patrick Gainer's FOLK SONGS FROM THE WEST VIRGINIA HILLS, 1975.

1. "The Devil's Questions" ("Riddles Wisely Expounded", Child #1)
The title indicates that the questioner is the Devil, but the text gives no such indication. Perhaps this is an example of a song that is losing the supernatural element.

2."O Where Are You Going? I'm Going to Linn" ("The Elfin Knight", Child #2) Dr. Gainer says, "In the old-world ballad of Child's work, the title of this ballad is "The Elfin Knight", but in the West Virginia versions the knight loses the character of the supernatural and is simply a young man who has a playful sort of game between himself and his former lover. He imposes certain impossible tasks upon her, and she in turn imposes even more impossible tasks upon him."

3. "The Six King's Daughters" (Lady Isabel and the Elf-Knight", Child #4) The Elf-Knight is become simply a serial killer.

4. "Old Badman" ("Sir Lionel", Child 18, also known as "Bangum Went to the Wild Boar's Den") The boar remains, but the giant who owned the boar is gone.

5."The House Carpenter's Wife" ("James Harris" or "The Daemon Lover", Child #243) has, in this version, lost the demonic nature of the lover and the visions of heaven and hell.

Kent

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Joybell
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 08:03 PM

There are still many examples of supernatural beliefs in America. Angels, Satan, ghosts, God, witches, haunted places ...
This isn't a simple question.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Kent Davis
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 09:24 PM

Amos and Peace,

"Teen Angel", at least the one I know, does not contain any supernatural elements. I wonder if you are thinking of "Laurie". That song reminds me of "The Lady Near New York Town" ("The Suffolk Miracle", Child #272), in which a young person is given an article of clothing by another, the giver later learns that the recipient has been been dead for a year, and the missing article of clothing is found in the cemetery. In the West Virginia version, a woman gives a hankerchief to a man, and it is found when his coffin is dug up.

Kent

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Kent Davis
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 09:26 PM

Besides "The Sufflok Miracle", two other songs in the West Virginia tradition that have retained their ghosts are "Down By the Greenwood Sidee" ("The Cruel Mother",Child # 20) and "The Three Little Babes" ("The Wife of Usher's Well", Child # 79).   

Another song that has retained its supernatural element is "The Sister's Murder" (The Twa Sisters", Child #10). In it, a fiddle bow is made from a murdered girl's hair "and when on the fiddle the music did sound, it cried, 'by my sister I was drowned'".

"In Scotland Town Where I Was Born" ("Hind Horn", Child #17) retains the magic ring that "stays bright and fair" as long as the separated lover is true, but "grows old and worn" if the lover is "with some other one". "The Cherry Tree" (Child #54) retains its (non-Biblical) miracle. "The Farmer's Wife and the Devil" (Child # 278) retains its trip to Hell (but it is a comical version of Hell). "The Mermaid" (Child #289) retains the mermaid of its title.

Let's not forget all those roses and greenbriars that grow from the graves of those who died for love and then entwine in a true-lovers knot: "Fair Margaret and Sweet William" (Child #74), "Lord Lovel" (Child # 75), and "Barbra Allen" (Child #84).

These songs are found in Patrick Gainer's FOLK SONGS FROM THE WEST VIRGINIA HILLS, 1975.

Dr. Gainer made the same point that Art Thieme made, namely that Puritan influence accounts for the loss of some of the supernatural elements in the old ballads.

A point neither of them make (but I will be bold enough to) is that not all of the U.S. was settled by Puritans. New England mostly was, but the South mostly was not. The Puritans were the religious and political liberals of their day. Over 375 years after they settled Massachusets, it is still generally a "liberal" area. Virginia's settlers were comparatively "conservative", and, over 400 years after Jamestown was settled, Virginia (and West Virginia)are still generally conservative. This would lead one to suspect that the supernatural elements of the old ballads would be better retained in the South than in New England.

So, you New Englanders, how well did the old ballads in your area retain their supernatural elements?

Kent

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american son
From: Andrez
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 09:51 PM

Dont let the US religious right cotton onto the fact that supernatural references can be found in folk music or they'll declare it satanic and have it banned before Bush leaves office!

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: masato sakurai
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 10:08 PM

From Tristram P. Coffin, The British Traditional Ballad In North America (1950), p. 17:

Rationalization is one of the most powerful of all the forces that work on ballads. In Britain and America as belief in ghosts, fairies, and other spiritual characters dwindles, everyday substitutes are provided, so that an elfin knight becomes a gypsy lover and later an illicit lover or even the lodger, while a mermaid is replaced by a mortal, if mysterious, sweetheart. So strong is such rationalization that most of our modern versions of the old ghost, witch, etc. ballads have lost all or nearly all traces of the supernatural. Thus James Harris generally appears today as a triangle love tale between three mortals, the harp motif has nearly vanished from The Twa Sisters, and Sir Hugh's body seldom speaks miraculously from the well. Of course, certain ballads are still completely retained in their supernatural form, but these are usually out and out ghost stories or religious tales like The Suffolk Miracle or The Cherry Tree Carol that would not survive if rationalized. But, on the whole, the devil, the elf, the mermaid, and the like have left or are leaving the songs. Barry's explanation of the Croodlin Doo evolution of Lord Randal demonstrates the trend.

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american son
From: Nerd
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 10:58 PM

Pretty Polly was a good example. British versions, and many collected in Newfoundland, have the murder followed by the man going to sea. He is pursured by the victim's ghost:

And as he was a-turning from the captain with speed
He's met pretty Polly it's made his heart bleed.
She's ripped him, she's stripped him, she's tore him in three,
Crying, 'That's for the murder of my baby and me'.

In most US versions, he just buries her.

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Melissa
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 11:22 PM

Bringing Mary Home has an intact supernatural storyline..nothing veiled about it.

While the Colonists were colonizing, French/Spanish/other traders were romping the area that later became known as Louisiana Purchase. It DOES seem strange for so many songs to have their supernatural aspects cleaned up..seems like there should be big pockets around the country where those parts weren't subdued.

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Kent Davis
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 11:49 PM

Andrez,

I hope you were joking when you wrote, "Dont let the US religious right cotton onto the fact that supernatural references can be found in folk music or they'll declare it satanic and have it banned before Bush leaves office!"

The U.S. government has never banned any song as Satanic.

The Religious Right is not seeking to change that. Members of the Religious Right are quite aware of the supernatural element in folk music. At least one member has posted several messages on the topic to this very thread.

Whatever the reasons may be that supernatural elements have been dropped from some folk songs, you may be sure that coercion by the U.S. government is not among them.

Kent

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american son
From: Nerd
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 12:19 AM

Melissa's right that "Bringing Mary Home" is supernatural, but it's not a British song also found here in the US. Jane was asking about "Loss of supernatural story lines in American versions of British songs."

In fact, "Bringing Mary Home" is not actually a folk song, but a country song written in the last few decades that became popular on the bluegrass scene. I think it was first published in 1965 (that's according to the copyright database).

BTW, the same Urban Legend is the basis of Dickie Lee's "Laurie (Strange things happen)," a pop song also written in 1965.

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Melissa
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 12:33 AM

thanks..guess this is yet another thread for me to leave for the Scholars

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 02:48 PM

Oops...It appears we began to suffer Political Correctness a lot sooner than most of us realized. Of course, we have long had a tendency to do the same thing to food and wine - and even some immigrants themselves. We, too frequenly, like to homogenize, take the "seasoning" out and otherwise make bland much of what came from over the water. It must be the Puritan roots.

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american son
From: Andrez
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 03:58 PM

Oh My Gawd, dont get me started on the ability of the religious right to influence the development and implementation of government policy in the US and elsewhere according to its own ideological agenda!   I was joking to a point about the US govt but not about the RR. They are definitely not funny!

Having said that I am not going to sidetrack this thread by engaging around that issue and so thats my last comment on the RR here.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 04:39 PM

As Kent pointed out above, it makes no sense at all to blame the Puritans for changes that evolved in the southern hill country, where there has never been any Puritan influence or even presence.

The replacement of various magical motifs with more rational storylines is probably nothing more than a general trend toward "modernization."

Why would this have occurred more thoroughly and noticably in the US than in the UK, even in relatively "undeveloped" or technologically-backward communities? Perhaps America has simply been more self-consciously "modern" or "forward-looking," even in its most rural areas (where adaptation of "modern" ways might well have been a matter of wishful thinking than of actual attainment).

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 06:38 PM

I can't cite any specifics because I'm suffering severe brain farts today, especially since there is a chainsaw working not far away - but I would submit that some songs may have had their supernatural elements removed because of the secularization and rationalization of American society, that the supernatural elements just didn't make sense to the singers. Perhaps some songs aren't "sanitized" for puritanical reasons or for reasons of political correctness - but maybe elements of songs get lost simply because they don't have meaning to the singer because the culture has changed (or, even more simply, because the singer doesn't like it). I think it's wrong to suppose there are evil motives to every change in a folk song. After all, what's the folk process all about anyhow?
Now that the chainsaw has stopped, I can think of one example, although the "removed" elements aren't supernatural - in its pure form, The Jew's Daughter has some of the most horrible bigotry ever to be found in English-language song. By the time it evolved to the children's version of "It Rained a Mist" in America, not a trace of that bigotry was left. Was that censorship? Was that "political correctness"? I don't think so, although there might have been some of that - but chiefly, I think that singers kept the parts they found relevant and enjoyable, and let the other stuff die.
You could say the same for Babes in the Wood.

I gotta go out and check on the guy with the chainsaw, since the noise stopped. He's supposed to be cutting down the tree that blocks the entrance to my garage, so I can buy a new car this week and keep it under cover.....

-Joe Brainfart-

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Neil D
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 07:08 PM

I am skeptical about the theory that our Puritan influence somehow culled superstition from folk songs as they travelled to the new world. Their influence was mostly confined to New England and the most fertile collecting ground for old ballads was in Appalachia and other parts of the southern U.S. (maybe it was a Baptist/Pentecostal influence but I doubt that). Besides the Puritans were plenty superstitious. They burned witches didn't they?

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american son
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 08:09 PM

Superstition is one thing, but mysticism is somewhat different. I wonder if it is not so much secularism, as posited by Joe, or puritanism, but rather protestantism, where mysticism is a pretty rare attribute.   There is nothing mystical about the protestant Devil. He's simply a bad-ass. And while spirits and the daemons in the Old Country may have been frightening, I don't think they were always regarded as "the evil dominions of Satan."      Descended from ancient cultures that preceded the spread of Christianity, it seems there was (and is) a view that 'old magic' supernatural simply does not come entirely under the dominion of the Church.   

Also, think of all the legends and mythologies of the many different cultures and tribes who settled and conquered the British Isles in waves going back into prehistory, and how they became woven into the rites, beliefs and ceremonies of the Catholic church, and persisted, passed down through generations. They were also often often deeply associated with the land or specific areas, especially the mythical creatures.   There are little hidden places, and larger ones too, in the British Isles associated with the supernatural, the origins of which go back probably a thousand years or more. When the people of the British Isles moved across the ocean, they left their faeries, elves and leprechauns in the Old Country, for the most part, and didn't find new species of those fey beings here. Since they did not assimilate, in any way, with the native populations here, and since the cultures and mythologies of native Americans were so different, they also did not adopt or adapt, for the most part, any of the mystical or mythical elements of Native American mythologies or spiritualism.

New World immigrants no longer had the the daily reinforcement of their long cultural histories around them in force. Families were broken up, the keepers of the stories - the purveyors of these older traditions who passed them in not only in story and song, but in daily practice that socialized another generation to them, often did not make the journey across the ocean.    And if they did, think of the difference in the power and sense of realism between, "When I was just a lad, I saw the faeries dancing one night right by the spring hidden by Hadrian's Wall at the edge of the village. Be careful you stay away from there at night, Child", and "When I was lad in Scotland, I saw the faeries...."

The culture(s) of the British Isles did not cross the waters intact. In New World protestantism, the supernatural and magic were (are) nearly always regarded as the work of the Devil, that big Bad-Ass guy trying to trip you up. And the Devil is nearly always viewed as a trickster. And if you lose to the Devil, it's your own damn fault for not being 'good.'

So, being as the folk process involves, as others have said above, change, and usually change to reflect the meanings and values of whoever the current 'folk' are, it is not surprising that a good bit of the magical element has gone from the American derivatives of those old ballads.

Which is all an awful lot for some one to say who really knows nothing at all about the subject:>)

Having said all that, let me confess I don't know a thing about any of this.

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american son
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 08:12 PM

And I was just doubly redundant! One of these days I'll start routine editing posts before I hit submit.

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 08:25 PM

What is the religious right but a possibly logical extrapolation, over time, of the puritan ethic that planted it's pretty radical seed into the psyche of America to grow into and become the manifestation that we see perpetrated upon us today jn Washington. Of course the puritan ethic, whatever it was, has been bastardized and deleted, morphed and "refined" into this group of mod "patriots?" that can, amazingly, seem to deny the presence of the separations between church and state (and never the twain shall meet) that were set out so graphically by those early guys sometimes called the founding fathers. The religious right sure does worship those founders when their early rules/pronouncements from 1776 suit their purposes. (like guns!)

I stand by my feelings that it can be traced back to the attitudes that became the dogmas of people we call puritans.

Art

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 08:30 PM

Janie,
That's brilliant and right on.
Art

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american son
From: DADGBE
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 08:55 PM

It seems like the remaining supernatural influences in North American folklore may be left behind for the purpose of scaring folks. Fear is not often dealt with in song but Rosalie Sorrells' recording of The Haunted Hunter combines both. While I think that it was found as a printed broadside in Canada, it would be interesting to hear more info about it.

Other instances of folk material used to convey fear that come to mind are The Lonesome Roving Wolves, The Texas Rangers and all those camp stories designed to frighten young summer campers; many of which use supernatural themes.

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Goose Gander
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 08:56 PM

Ah, the Puritan thesis (as outlined by historian Edmund S. Morgan in The Puritan Dilemma) rears its head again! But it really can't explain this specific phenomena outside of New England, as others have pointed out.

"The culture(s) of the British Isles did not cross the waters intact. In New World protestantism, the supernatural and magic were (are) nearly always regarded as the work of the Devil, that big Bad-Ass guy trying to trip you up. And the Devil is nearly always viewed as a trickster. And if you lose to the Devil, it's your own damn fault for not being 'good.'"

Perusing Ozark Magic and Folklore by Vance Randolph (among other sources) should make it fairly clear that British-descended settlers in the New World were not at all unfamiliar with magic and witchcraft (for lack of better terms) and were not always adverse to making use of it in their day-to-day lives.

So, admittedly, I too don't really have an explanation for the loss of the supernatural in Anglo-American folksong.

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american son
From: Rowan
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 11:07 PM

As an outsider (from the other New England) I have wondered about "the American attitude" towards religion and secularism too; I understand the naturally limited application of stereotypes but time is short for detailed writing. To my mind, Janie's post makes a lot of sense, even though Michael correctly challenges its application outside the US version of New England.

And this left me wondering whether another aspect of American culture, specific to the US and seemingly absent from either Canada or anywhere south of the Rio Grande (all of which are also American) is the sense of "moral vision" that seems resident in the US. Ever since 1776 there has been a notion, widely accepted in the US, that the US must play a leadership role modelling desirable notions of how a society ought to work. The most recent example might be the notion that the US must foster "democracy" in areas of the world where it currently doesn't occur.

Now, without getting into listing numerous lapses, it seems to me that a society that has lots of people accepting the notion they have a role to promote such a "moral vision" might find it relatively easy to drop off various bits of 'irrelevant' or 'unwelcome' culture. Like revenants and other relics of an unrational age.

Might this go some way towards addressing Michael's challenge about geographical distributions?

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Kent Davis
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 11:16 PM

The more I think about it, the more I think we have been using the wrong word for the thing that is disappearing from American versions of British songs. We don't really mean "supernatural", do we? God and the Bible are supernatural, yet they show no signs of disappearing from American songs. Wouldn't it be more precise to say that the elvish elements are disappearing?   

As Janie has well stated, folk songs do "change to reflect the meanings and values of whoever the current 'folk' are" and therefore "it is not surprising that a good bit of the magical element has gone from the American derivatives of the old ballads".
God and the Bible are important to many of "the folk"; elvish knights much less so.

So could we say God is here to stay, but Elvish has left the building?

Kent

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 11:41 PM

Kent,

Very nice one!!!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american son
From: Janie
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 12:23 AM

FWIW, I think that is a really good way to frame it, Kent.

And Michael, I don't disagree with you. But I don't think puritanism has anything to do with it. I do think New World protestantism does. There is still 'magic in them thar hills.' I know a fair number of people, old herbalists, country people here in the Piedmont, or up in my home in West Virginia, who still work 'spells' and 'hexes.'    Still people with a reputation for having the 'sight.', etc. But, speaking in broadly general terms, there is not a strong 'fey' or as Kent puts it so well, elvish quality to those beliefs and practices. There is not a a cultural history of European paganism. We don't have daemons with the implied pagan idea of an immaterial being somewhere between human and pagan divinity. We have demons. Evil spirits, plain and simple. Little devils.    I can't think of any examples right now, but there are definitely folk songs and ballads that originated here that include talk of demons, devils, ghosts. But no daemon lovers.

According to the reference masato posted above, the same transformation has happened, to at least some degree, on the other side of the pond, also, where the ballads originated.

Magic just ain't what it used to be, I guess.

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Melissa
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 12:58 AM

Maybe the paranormal references were subdued during the time when "granny women" were considered problematic?

It would probably be easier to come up with a sensible guess as to "why" if you could narrow it down to "when" and compare it with history of the time...

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 02:04 PM

Another question I'd have is how much did Puritan sing, and WHAT did they sing? I can't picture them singing much other than hymns, but maybe I'm wrong. The Puritans became Congregationalists, and then became the United Church of Christ, and then became quite liberal - you wouldn't call them "puritan" now.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 04:32 PM

Joe, didn't the Unitarian Church (as well as the UCC) come from Congregationalism, which came from Puritanism? They are very "non-Puritan" these days!

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 06:00 PM

Incidentally, the Congregationalists were one of the three sects that merged (the others being the Methodists and the Presbyterians) to form the United Church of Canada, one of the most populous churches in Canada. Again, the United Church tends to be fairly liberal.

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Scotus
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 07:03 PM

Nobody's mentioned 'Black Jack Davy' NOT casting the glamour over the unfortunate lady (the gypsies used this strategy to get her out of the castle in the older Scots versions).

Jack

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american son
From: Rowan
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 08:17 PM

Incidentally, the Congregationalists were one of the three sects that merged (the others being the Methodists and the Presbyterians) to form the United Church of Canada, one of the most populous churches in Canada.

In Oz, the church formed by the same union is called "The Uniting Church"; there were several previously existing "United" churches in rural localities where no one protestant brand could muster enough people to warrant a separate building or congregation but, combined, they could. My father's neighbourhood in Sth Gippsland was an example. The Uniting Church in Oz is relatively progressive and liberal.

But I can't (at the moment) think of examples of songs that are endemic to Oz (as distinct from having been transplanted during the recent folk revival) that feature presence or deletion of revenants, daemons etc.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 08:33 PM

Yep, PoppaGator, both the Unitarians and the United Church of Christ have roots in the Congregationalists, which have Puritan roots. The Unitarians have an annoying practice of "sanitizing" songs, although now for the purpose of Political Correctness. The UCC seems to be a lot more open to Philosophical Messiness. I suppose the current best-known UCC leader might be Peter J. Gomes of Harvard - eloquent, black, and gay. The Puritans would not be pleased.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Kent Davis
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 11:40 PM

Several posters seem to think that the Puritans were conservatives. That is understandable since the social mores of the Puritans somewhat resemble the social mores of modern conservatives. It is understandable, but it is not historically correct.

In the 17th Century, the conservatives were High Church Royalists. The Puritans were the political and religious LEFT. This is irritating to the left, which despises the old Puritans, and to the right, which rather admires them.

Politically, the Puritans were so far to the left that they overthrew the monarchy and, in 1649, executed King Charles I. Their religious program was not based on conserving tradition, but rather on ELIMINATING (Roman Catholic) tradition. At least in their own minds, they were purifying England, hence the term Puritan.

Did this "purifying" include cleaning up superstition in the old ballads? I don't know. If so, one would expect the ballads collected in New England to be more "cleaned up" than those collected in the Southern Appalachians. Are they?

Kent

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american son
From: Janie
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 11:54 PM

Anybody remember the Garrison Keeler monologue about the Rapture occurring - to the shock and dismay of both the Unitarians and the Baptists, the Unitarians were taken up, and the Baptists left behind. "Unitarians don't want Rapture -they want understanding!" It was one of the funniest pieces I have ever heard him do.

A lot of those Child ballads came over AFTER the puritans. The puritans of New England were some of the earliest, but not the most multitudiness of British Isles immigrants. Scotsmen, , Welshmen, Scots-Irish. Most of them quite hostile to Catholicism, but less so to the Anglicans. And they came much more because of economic conditions than seeking religious freedom.

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Melissa
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 12:00 AM

According to Janie "There is still 'magic in them thar hills.'" which would seem to imply that some areas weren't scrubbed as thoroughly on the Washboard of Religion...IF that's what brought on the shift.

Maybe after a generation or two, songwriters didn't put in mystical stuff--because it wasn't such a part of their lives..and with that trend, they could easily have begun the process of 'updating' the Old Songs.

When everyday life is scary, hard and exhausting, scary songs might have simply lost their appeal. Isn't that what happened with Fairy Tales?

What did the songs change to?
Did they go from "you have no control over this situation" to "fork in the road" type where the character had to choose which way to take their story by their response toward the song situation?

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 12:04 AM

Well, Kent, from today's perspective, everybody in the 17th century could probably be labeled conservative. Still, I wonder about the songs sung by the Americans of the 17th Century. Can't say I've been impressed by the American songs I've seen from the 18th Century. None of them seem to have much imagination in them. I don't really think that it was the "washboard of religion" that scrubbed things clean - indeed, most religious groups seem to be quite open to matters of the imagination. I think, perhaps, that it was "polite society" that tended to sanitize the songs of the common folk. The Enlightenment of the 18th Century didn't really seem to allow for the supernatural. But hey, if the Puritans executed witches, don't you think they must have believed in supernatural witchcraft? As for Puritans being "liberal," I don't think executing witches would be considered a "liberal" act today.
-Joe, still wondering what songs the Puritans sang-

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american songs
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 01:24 AM

Hmm, the Enlightenment was also the age of the gothic novels.

Subject: RE: Folklore: supernatural gone from american son
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 02:49 AM

'Suffolk Miracle'.
Up to twenty years ago this was one of the most popular ballads to be found among traditional singers in this part of the West of Ireland; long after it had disappeared elsewhere.
The supernatural element in ballads has always been a 'movable feast'; my particular favourite being the version of 'The Grey Cock' 'known as 'I'm A Rover', where the night visiting lover becomes a ploughboy, whose parting shot is:
"Remember lass, I'm a plooman laddie,
And the fairmer I must obey".
The most authoritative (and readable) work on the supernatural ballads by far is still, 'Folklore in The English and Scottish Ballads' by Lowry C Wimberly (Fredrick Ungar Pub. Co. N.Y. 1928.).
It was re-published in the 1960s in paperback by Dover Books.
Jim Carroll