Folk Alliance Awards

Subject: Folk Alliance Awards
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 06:25 PM

Here are the nominations for this year's Folk Alliance Awards. The Awards Show is February 20 at Folk Alliance in Memphis.

Legacy Recording:

Woody Guthrie, "The Live Wire - Woody Guthrie in Performance 1949" (Woody Guthrie Archives)
Various Artists, "People Take Warning! Murder Ballads & Disaster Songs" (Tompkins Square Records)
Various Artists "Rogue's Gallery: Pirate Ballads, Sea Songs, And Chanteys" (Anti Records)
Various Artists "Old Town School of Folk Music Songbook, Vols. 2 & 3" (Bloodshot Records)

Legacy Lifetime Achievement Award: Tommy Jarrell

Booking Agency:

Concerted Efforts
Folklore Productions
Mongrel Music
The Roots Agency
Skyline Booking

Broadcaster:

Susan Forbes Hansen – WHUS
Ron Olesko - WFDU
John Platt – WFUV
Mike Regenstreif - CKUT
Rich Warren – WFMT

Contemporary Artist:

Peter Case
Lucy Kaplansky
Anais Mitchell
Tom Russell
Susan Werner

Album of the Year (based on Folk-DJ Chart airplay):

Uncle Earl – Waterloo, Tennessee (Rounder)

Song of the Year (based on Folk-DJ Chart airplay0:

Tom Russell - Who's Gonna Build Your Wall (Hightone Records)

Lifetime Achievement Award: Mavis Staples

World Music Recording:

Cheick Hamala Diabate and Bob Carlin
Kobo Town
Loreena McKennitt
Mighty Popo
Sones de Mexico Ensemble

Small Folk Venue:

Café Lena - Saratoga Springs, NY
Freight & Salvage – Berkeley, CA
Hugh's Room - Toronto, ON
Iron Horse-Northampton, MA
Tin Angel - Philadelphia, PA

Traditional Artist:

David Bromberg
John Wort Hannam
Levon Helm
Joel Mabus
Uncle Earl

Large Folk Venue:

The Ark-Ann Arbor, MI
The Birchmere-Arlington, VA
Cedar Cultural Center-Minneapolis, MN
Kennedy Center Millennium Stage – Washington, DC

Folk Festival:

Boston Folk Festival – MA
Edmonton Folk Festival – AL
Falcon Ridge Folk Festival - NY
Philadelphia Folk Festival - PA
Ottawa Folk Festival - ON

Emerging Artist:

Carolina Chocolate Drops
Anthony daCosta
Eilen Jewell
Devon Sproule
Twilight Hotel

Lifetime Achievement Awards for Business: Rounder Records

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 07:02 PM

Does anyone else find this sort of thing perverse?

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 08:28 PM

I think it's great that the folk music community recognizes the accomplishments of some of its most talented members. God knows none of them are in it for the money.

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 12:01 AM

Various Artists "Rogue's Gallery: Pirate Ballads, Sea Songs, And Chanteys" (Anti Records)

Traditional Artist: was there one there??

That's about as far as I got

Barry

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 12:30 AM

I mean no disrespect to professional performers, but the "folk music community" you speak of, C. Ham, is not THE folk community, it's A folk community. And it's not mine: mine is Mudcat, where people sing and play for free, and where we don't compare e.g. Barry Finn with e.g. Charlie Noble. We don't even talk about who has more talent or who has less, let alone give awards to those who have "more". I think of that model as a consumer/producer model, and one more akin to the relationship between "stars" and "fan clubs".

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 07:23 AM

I made some comment a while back about recordings and how folk and folklike recordings are treated as pop. Somewhere way back down the road, somebody made the decision that if folkish music were treated in the same manner as pop, with charts and 'hits' and such, it would be a good thing. Basing things on the pop model probably gets newer recordings more attention and rewards not just the artist, but those involved in recording and promoting.

It's not something I care to argue about. There's a faction that goes down the promotathon route and there's other music. The top two CDs in my car are currently ones I bought about 6 months ago. One is a compilation recording from '84-'94 and the other in 2000. I bought one because I'd heard others do his songs, and the other because, I have newer recordings. Radio play - folk 'Top 20 Countdown' - wasn't a factor. I listen to the radio, but they're often part of the promotion machine and not that big on playing older recordings.

That said, one of my two CDs is by a guy nominated for best contemporary artist, (Who doesn't like Tom Russell, whatever century?!) I don't hate the folkie hit machine and I like seeing the deserving being recognized, but it doesn't have much to do with my listening or buying habits.

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: bankley
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 09:05 AM

and in the category of :
"The Question that provokes the most debate (non-religious/apolitical)"....

The envelope please..... (drum roll)

and the Award goes to "What is Folk Music?"

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 10:20 AM

I'm hesitant to enter into this discussion since my name appears on the list of nominees, but I would like to share my thoughts as someone who straddles the line between the various "folk" communities.

I agree with Jon Bartlett that the Folk Alliance represents just ONE folk community. The diversity of folk music is one of the attractions to the music. There is no way to compare Jon Bartlett to Barry Finn and say one person has more talent than the other. I also happen to play recordings from both on my radio program. I also play recordings from the nominees. My joy is when I receive an e-mail or a phone call from a listener who "discovers" a new song or artist that they enjoy.

While I was too young to be involved in the "folk revival" of the 50's and '60s, I have been greatly influenced by the commercial recordings. I would also go out on a limb and say that many Mudcatters probably were influenced by that outbreak of commercialism as well, and it led them to discover the beauty of "self-made" music - a distinguishing factor from the glitter of pop music.

It is impossible to deny the commercial influence on any of the communties. Many people will mention the Harry Smith Anthology as a turning point and an inspiration for their love of folk music. I know that I hear many people still singing the songs from that collection.   Well, correct me if I am wrong, but all (or at least the majority) of the recordings on that collection were commercially released '78's. The original recordings were not made to preserve a culture but rather to make a buck. I consider it a noble aspect that the music also influenced a "non-commercial" interest in our traditions.

There is bickering over the semantics and definition of the word "folk". It is almost as easy as defining pornography - "I know it when I see it" to paraphrase a quote.

I don't think either "side" needs to worry. The music will survive as long as their are people that enjoys it.

Which brings me to the Folk Alliance. I agree with the sentiment that it is impossible to compare these nominees. I feel the same way about the Oscars, Grammys and other awards or contests.   However, the purpose behind the awards may serve a greater good.

While some people may completely disregard the professional aspect, there is no denying that this is a genre of music that will also serve to entertain. It is also a genre that is largely ignored by the press and public at large. A case could be made that ALL art and music should be non-commercial, but people need to pay bills and eat.

The Folk Alliance created these awards a few years ago to recognize "their own". These artists are largely ignored by organizations like the Grammys, skipped by trade publications and commercial media as well. The awards are an attempt to emulate similar awards given by the IBMA (International Bluegrass Music Association), the W.C. Handy Awards for blues, and the BBC Folk Awards. The hope is that it will garner some attention in the media that normally ignores anything with the "F" word.

It has worked. There has been television coverage, newspaper articles AND the artists who are nominated or win use the honor to open doors. Sending out a press kit with this information will help gain attention from bookers that would otherwise ignore them.

I would love to see Joel Mabus become a household name in places other than my own home.   Today's youth should be listening to Anais Mitchell just as we listened to Dylan. Uncle Earl should be played on commercial radio stations across the country.   The awards are a step in helping promote the image.

I realize that this may be "perverse" to some people, but it is a way of life for some people. I wish I could make a living doing radio fulltime instead of voluteering and not making a dime.

We cry foul when the government cuts off funding for the arts. The Folk Alliance is attempting to create interest and enable artists to make ends meet. Is that wrong?

Personally, as a nominee, I am really honored and proud. I do not expect to win, nor do I consider it a competition. It may sound like a cliche, but the recognition of being nominated is truly enough. I am humbled to be noticed with people like Rich Warren, John Platt, Mike Regenstrieff, and Sue Forbes Hansen. They give so much back to their own communities, and I try to follow their example.

Folk music is my "unpaid vocation" and if having my name attached to the Folk Alliance can help promote the music, I think it is a good thing.

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 02:56 PM

Well said, Ron. I don't agree with you, but you've made the case clearly and without "side".

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 06:02 PM

I think Jon & I are a lot alike, matter of fact if we were standing together you couldn't tell us apart if it weren't for the difference in height. I've got a inches on him in the way of height & he's got a few inches on me in the way of the waist, no more comparing inches after that.
I question their judgement & wonder where they're coming from when I see something like

Various Artists "Rogue's Gallery: Pirate Ballads, Sea Songs, And Chanteys" (Anti Records)

Which to my judgement belongs in the years worst piece of trash

Folk Festival:
Boston Folk Festival – MA
Falcon Ridge Folk Festival - NY
Both of these festivals are taxi's for the singer/songwriter, where's the "Beef"

Traditional Artist:

While some of them are good, the 3 that I'm familar with are hardly trad artists

So what gives & where are they coming from? I feel that they're covering what's commerically viable & what's left after that the rest of us can argue over the crumbs.

I'll go back to my hole in the floor now

Barry

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: C. Ham
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 07:34 PM

Ron Olesko said:

Personally, as a nominee, I am really honored and proud. I do not expect to win, nor do I consider it a competition. It may sound like a cliche, but the recognition of being nominated is truly enough. I am humbled to be noticed with people like Rich Warren, John Platt, Mike Regenstrieff, and Sue Forbes Hansen. They give so much back to their own communities, and I try to follow their example.

Congratulations on your nomination Ron.

I think the sentiments you express are similar to what Mike Regenstreif said on his Myspace blog:

I recently found out that I'm one of the five people nominated as broadcaster of the year in the North American Folk Alliance Awards.

The other nominees are Susan Forbes Hansen of WHUS in Connecticut, Ron Olesko of WFDU in New Jersey, John Platt of WFUV in New York and Rich Warren of WFMT in Chicago.

I know the tremendous quality of the programming and hosting skills of the other nominees in the category and am honoured just to be listed in their company.

I will, of course, be thrilled if I actually win the award. I will also be thrilled to hear that any of the other nominees wins. Each of them -- and some others I can think of who weren't nominated -- is richly deserving.

I won't be able to be in Memphis on February 20 for the Folk Alliance Awards. So my friend Tom Russell -- who will be given the song of the year award for "Who's Gonna Build Your Wall" and is nominated in the contemporary artist of the year category -- will accept the award on my behalf in the (unlikely) event that I'm the chosen one.

You guys seem to have a mutual admiration society. Congratulations to Mike and the other radio hosts too.

There are lots of great people in all of the categories. Tom Russell is certainly one of my very favorite artists. I also quite like Lucy Kaplansky who's also in the running. I'd be happy to see either Joel Mabus or Uncle Earl win in the traditional category.

I'm sorry Barry doesn't like one of the albums nominated in the Legacy category. Personally, I like about two-thirds of the Rogue's Gallery album and didn't like about one-third. I don't think Barry should worry, though, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the Woody Guthrie concert recording will take that category.

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 02:55 AM

I like FA, and I go most years to present and enjoy. I love the people I see there, and the genuine love of music, and the energy. But one thing does bother me. It's the relentless marginalization of traditional music.

Just because the Grammys don't know Levon Helm from a traditional musician doesn't mean Folk Alliance should be making the same mistake.

Just because the Grammys turn the "traditional folk" category into a back door for any rock star who chooses to make an unplugged album and put a couple of folk songs on it, doesn't mean Folk Alliance should.

If "we" as the folk community can't nominate traditional musicians in the traditional musicians category, who will? Why should anyone? We've basically said traditional music isn't even interesting to the folk crowd, and we've said that any famous rock star who sings a folk song is automatically better than 99% of the traditional musicians out there.

Including John Wort Hannam, similarly, sends the message that any singer-songwriter who puts a mandolin in his arrangements is not only a traditional folk musician, but a better traditional folk musician than...well, than any actual traditional folk musician except perhaps Joel Mabus.

I have no problem with Folk Alliance taking a broad approach to what "folk" is. But at least give traditional musicians one category!

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 10:19 AM

I agree with all of you about the lack of proper recognition for "traditional" music in the Folk Alliance Awards AND in the organization in general.

For those of you who do not know about the organization, it is made up of approximately 2500 dues-paying members from across the United States and Canada, and I understand there are also members in other countries. MOST, but not all, of the people are involved as a BUSINESS aspect. Even though I do not get paid, I consider folk music an important part of my life, and a "vocation" for which I do not get paid.

The Folk Alliance was formed in 1989 when a group of 125 individuals that included representives from folk societies across the country met in California to discuss forming a coalition to share information and to work together to promote "folk" music.

The organization has grown, and it has had it's share of disagreements and stumbles, and each year the conference serves as a "town meeting" for performers, agents, media and presenters.

I am a member, and also a member of the Northeast Regional Folk Alliance (NERFA)- one of the regional offshoots of the Folk Alliance. I'd like to stress that I am not a spokesperson for either organization, but I am sharing my own views as a member and an observer.

The lack of traditional music is an obvious issue. The organization has attempted to rectify, but nothing has seemed to work. The fact is, most of the work and focus is created by the members.

Now we get to the problem. The members are interested in promoting the business aspects as well as the artistic aspects of the music. What sells? What brings out an audience? Where are the most opportunities?

At NERFA, I have served on the formal showcase committee. Each year the committee, made up of concert presenters, festival organizers, radio people like myself, listen to over 200 submissions and select 14 people for the "FORMAL" showcase (there are plenty of additional showcases.) Make no mistake, this is subjective - but the selected artists have impressed all of the judges.    I can tell you that the lack of traditional submissions is noticeable.   I can understand the reasons for that - a feeling that it is inevitable that they will be ignored (not true), or a feeling that they do not need to be a part of a process like this (probably very true).

When Barry said that "they're covering what's commerically viable & what's left after that the rest of us can argue over the crumbs" - he is correct, partially. The problem is the definition of the term "commercially viable".

In the Folk Alliance it is not a matter of who sells the most CD's, but who can appeal to the audience that has developed for contemporary folk music. There is a distinction. Who does the Folk Alliance serve?

Barry said that the Boston Folk Festival and Falcon Ridge are "are taxi's for the singer/songwriter" and I say - thank God for that!   Falcon Ridge especially has become an important stage. Without Falcon Ridge, I don't think as many people would have been aware of the music of artists like Vance Gilbert, Ellis Paul, the Kennedys, Eliza Gilkyson, Dave Carter, and dozens of other BRILLIANT singer-songwriters.   These artists are not going to be knocking down the Billboard 100 charts - unless it is by "accident", but they have developed A COMMUNITY of people across the country that have a love for this music - a music that I would strongly argue has roots in the traditions and we are witnessing the current "folk" trend. I realize that many people will disagree with that statement, and I fully understand why.

The Folk Alliance may not be serving the needs of "traditional" artists, but what have these "traditional" artists done to help themselves - or more importantly - do they even need help??? There are still people, like myself, who love the traditions and the traditional music and singers play an important role in their life. There are plenty of people still singing the songs and gathering at places like Old Songs, Mystic, or in their own communities to keep these traditions alive. Does it need help, does it need promotion? Perhaps promotion will lead down the slippery slope and end up with "commercialism".

Is there a point to my ramblings?   Well, I think that the Folk Alliance serves a segment of the population that needs to be exposed to new singer-songwriters and the current folk trends which includes the term "world music" (a huge topic for another discussion). I am not concerned that the traditions will be forgotten or ignored because the beauty lies in the art - and the art will always find its own audience.   

IF traditional musicians want to reach a wider audience, be prepared to make a case of why you want to do so - and be prepared to expose yourself to the commercial aspects. It is a tough choice.

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: DebC
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 10:56 AM

Ron worote:
"I can understand the reasons for that - a feeling that it is inevitable that they will be ignored (not true), or a feeling that they do not need to be a part of a process like this (probably very true)."

There are a number of folks like you, Ron (and I could name many more) who DO NOT ignore those of us that sing the old songs. We are grateful to you all for that. In fact, I do find it encouraging that every single DJ nominated above is extremely supportive of traditional song and music. I have had the pleasure of being on the shows of three of those DJs and all of the nominees have been generous in their airing of my music.

But I do feel ignored by the larger folk community. In Austin in 2006, I was disappointed to see that there was no FA sanctioned traditional showcase OR a peer group as there has been in the past. In trying for guerilla showcases, I am usually politely rejected because I am not a singer/songwriter.

I also want to paraphrase something Joel Mabus (for whom I elevate to just below sainthood) said about FA a few years ago; something to the effect that the traditional folk community has been moving away from FA for the last ten years or so. This is true; there are traditional communities that are thriving without FA. I am finding them all over the country.

I have chosen to do this as my living and yes, ultimately the choices are down to me. But when opportunity after opportunity calling itself "folk" presents itself with "original songs only", that leaves many of us shut out.

What I find very sad is that instead of being ONE community, we are becoming fractured. I noticed this when I went to my first NERFA in '98 and I am not seeing it get any better. I might add though, that I have not been to FARM (the Midwest regional), but I did attend Far-West (West Coast regional)last November and I did find that traditional music seemed to have a bit more of a presence than I have seen at NERFA.

BTW-yes there are some BRILLIANT songwriters out there, but it just seems that the opportunities for those of us that interpret rather than compose are few and far between.

But I could be wrong. It's certainly happened before :-)

Debra Cowan
www.DebraCowan.com

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 12:21 PM

Deb, thanks for the kind words. I would like to clarify what I was trying to describe because I do agree with everything that you said.

I do feel that the Folk Alliance is serving an important role, and I do feel that contemporary singer-songwriters need an organization behind them to help promote the music.

I also agree that traditional performers and those who interpret the work of others need more exposure and opportunities - although I am the first to admit I do not know how to make that happen and I am also concerned that the nature of the music could be corrupted.

Yes, I do play a great deal of artists like Deb, Jon, Barry and so many others. There are a number of other radio hosts that do the same, most notably Mary Cliff. We want to help promote and we are lucky to be able to do so.

Wearing my other hat, that as booker, I see other problems. Last year we booked Mike Seeger at the Hurdy Gurdy, and had a very disapointing turnout of 50 people. This year we booked Scottish singer Emily Smith, admittedly a relative unknown in the U.S. but we lowered the price and did a lot of publicity. Another dismal turnout. Both concerts lost a great deal of money for the club, and our existence would be terminated if we continued to bleed.   We are now trying to mix styles in the hopes that one good concert can offset the loss of another and we can remain true to our mission.

I do not claim to have answers on how to fix the Folk Alliance and the offshoots.   I think Joel's observation is correct, but the question is - what can and should be done? A showcase or two just doesn't seem to cut it. How can we make the organization take notice? I would love to help find a way - and I will throw this out - if anyone has ideas and would like to work on some sort of presence at NERFA this coming November, I will be glad to champion it and do whatever I can. I know that the organizers of the conference are willing and interested, it is just a question of how and what.

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 11:23 PM

Thanks Ron & Deb for your observations

I DO think tha FA hurts Trad music & musicians. Just as radio stations like Boston's WUMB (24 hr folk claim) the before mentioned festials., & many of the Boston area club circut venues. The Boston arae (ioo mile radius is a national hot bed of "Folk Music". There's music coming out of every orfice. 20 to 30 yrs ago Boston was a hot bed of Trad music & musicians & contemporary was doing pretty well too, after all look at the 60's. But durning the later 80's, espically the 90's up to the present the singer/songerwriter genre has had excellent commerical PR to the point where Deb is exact in saying that "it just seems that the opportunities for those of us that interpret rather than compose are few and far between." I dropped off a CD at Passium's to an old friend of mine. He asked that I take it to the management & I replied that I wanted him to have the CD that this venue doesn't do Trad (except for Irish). Passium's catered to trad in it distant past but it 97 1/2% singer/songwriter today as is WUMB as is the Boston Folk Festival as is Falcon Ridge as is 75^ of the New England area venues & concerts. When one after another venue, station, concert hall, coffee house starts to exclude Trad folk then it's no wonder the all the young & new arrivals don't support trad, hey have no way of knowing it in the first place & FA contributes to this cycle. Trad festivals are dying or struggling very hard to stay afloat, Mystic is the exception as is Old Songs but how long will they be the "hold outs". Many artists know that that's where their bread & butter is so they have to make a choice too. I have no idea about overseas but that my feel about how i is across the US. If these "folk" media meccas don't stop excluding trad while they're in the process of pushing the viable commerical "folks" to the forefront, one day you'll be putting on the Copper's & you'll only see a few of us gray hairs attending the rest will think you're putting on penny's.

Barry

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 11:40 PM

Ron, the problem that I have with Folk Alliance is, as I said NOT that they have a broad definition of "folk." It's the opposite. They more or less EXCLUDE traditional music from the definition of folk. I deplore this.

If they wanted to be a singer-songwriter organization they should have called themselves the singer-songwriter alliance. If they want to use the word "folk" they should include the music at the heart of what the word means.

To say "what have the traditional musicians done to help themselves" is a very dangerous argument. Democracies are messy, and can easily become tyrannies of the majority. In tyrannies of the majority, it's always easy to say "let the minorities found their own country if they want representation." The leaders of Folk Alliance are leaders, and it's their job to lead, and to ensure the organization does not become a tyranny of the majority.

Most importantly, as I said before, if they're going to HAVE a traditional folk category in their awards, they shouldn't allow big-name artists from other genres into the category. That's just wrong, and there's no excuse in the world for it.

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 12:00 AM

Thanks for the note Barry. I'm afraid I disagree with some of your points, but I certainly respect your opinion.

I think it is a "chicken" or "egg" conflict in many respect. You seem to feel that media and venues aren't supporting trad and instead pushing the singer-songwriters, and I would suggest that part of it is economics and delivering what an audience wants to hear.   As you mention, Mystic and Old Songs are exceptions - but the audiences I've seen at Mystic have not been huge. Enthusiastic, yes, and the audience should have an opportunity to celebrate this wonderful traditional event. This year will mark Mystic's 29th festival and it is held on the same weekend each June. It receives publicity. Why aren't more people turning out?   I have been honored to emcee at the NYC Eisteddfod Festival since it came to NYC several years ago. The music and event have been incredible, but the attendance has been obscenely sparse. Again they do a good job of promotion, and I've certainly done my part to promote it on radio in the area.

Why aren't more people attending these festivals and venues? As I mentioned previously, experience has shown that when we present traditional music at the Hurdy Gurdy we lose money.   We could not exist if we had to depend on the traditional crowd for our sole support.

Again, I do not know the answer - and I am not trying to push contemporary music at the expense of the traditions. Yet I am not hearing any suggestions that seem to work.

Personally, I think the traditional music revival came about to fill a need. Times have changed and new generations have different needs. The old styles are not in danger of being lost, but I think the old audience can no longer expect things to remain as they were. Even Old Songs does a wonderful job of incorporating some of the newer traditions and singer-songwriters who come directly from the tradition.   I was pleased to see people like Bob Franke, Pat Wictor and Chris Williamson there in recent years, and this year I notice Joe Jencks will be on stage (and Deb Cowan will also be performing!!!)

I'm also seeing a number of young artists taking traditional music and adapting it to their own styles - groups like The Mammals and Crooked Still as well as Bethany & Rufus and others. It may not be the sounds you enoy, but don't forget that people like Charlie Poole and the Carter Family were also altering traditional music to fit their commercial styles.

The times are a changin, and I do want to do whatever I can in my role as a radio host and a venue booker to keep traditional music alive - but I need help and ideas. We can talk about how the Folk Alliance is not serving the need, but can we come up with ideas on how the Folk Alliance can help??

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 12:20 AM

Nerd, I have to disagree - I don't think that the Folk Alliance willingly ignores traditional music, if anything I think that many traditional musicians ignore the Folk Alliance.   

The leaders of the Folk Alliance are not "leaders", they are facilitators of the organization. Grassroot efforts are what create change and keep democracies from becoming tyrannies. Folk music is also not a democracy - it is an art form. While pop culture may be pushed by commercial interests, most artistic movements develop to fill a need - think of the "Beat" writers movement, Cubism or perhaps more to the case - jazz music.

I do agree with you that the traditional catagory is not a true representation. Members can write in votes as well.

Again, I may not have a great influence on anyone at the Folk Alliance, but I am more than willing to use whatever weight I carry to champion workshops, showcases or whatever ideas you might have. IF there are enough "traditional" musicians willing to make a commitment to help me, I would be willing to host a showcase strictly for traditional music in one of the large showcase rooms at NERFA. Of course, many of you may have given up on the idea of the Folk Alliance or NERFA.

I'm willing to keep fighting and help educate people, but I can't do it alone. We need suggestions on improving.

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 01:22 AM

Folk Alliance made me a guest at two diffent yearly gatherings when Phyllis Barney was the leader. As a member, I will always be glad I was able to be there in Memphis and in Cleveland. Being out of the loop now, and off the road, it was a great thing to be able to hang out and schmooze with so many friends from all around the U.S.A. Still, I was rather turned off by the lack of a meaningful traditional presence at both of those gatherings and also on the F.A. e-mail web discussion. I did feel this estrangement to be real enough that I had decided not to stay in the organization. THEN, good friends of mine got together and purchased a lifetime membership for me. Well, as I'm fond of saying, "If you rob Peter to pay Paul, you can generally count on the support of Paul!" And I really do feel that the more things change, the more they get different---so what the hell; as a member of the olk Alliance, I'm really enjoying being able to see where this folk world of ours is going in the new century. Just a word of advice to all the agents and managers and presenters and biz savy new-age Folk Alliance members...

The rest of this sentence has been detained and relocated by the Department Of National Insecuity!!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 01:33 AM

Again Ron, it is my opinion that there is a commerical & viable market for the singer/songwriter, acoustic/folk, etc. because that was a created & targeted market that came into the forefront at the expense of the trad folk & so sucessful was the PR & marketing of these that trad didn't stand a chance against it, it actually suffered because of it.
You mentioned the Eisteddfod Festival. I used to attend the Eisteddfod back in the 70' & 80's it was a heavily/heavenly trad festival then. I don't know what happened but I'm of the opinion that it started to become heavly dependant on other geners & slid into decline & when it tried to turn itself around it had already past it's tipping point & couldn't make a come back. It was well attended in the years that it was a mostly trad festival. I believe that what you've got now is a great trad festival but it sufferes from a lack of trad exposure in general. Now I believe that the trad genre has suffered so badly at the hands of those that excluded it in favor of other folk genre that trad events find it very diffuclt to attract as it did in it's better supported days. So it's become a vicious cycle, keep excluuding trad & trad doesn't stand a chance. The time to support trad like folk events as was supported the other genres is now before it vanishes. It won't disappear but it will go underground. It's almost to the pont whereyou find it at sessions, folk societies, some clubs, a few festivals, but just because it doesn't sell doesn't mean it need be driven underground. I believe if it were pushed by the folk media & other organizations that could afford to it would again become a viable music to be available once again to the public.

Boston is a classic example. We have a so called 24/7 folk radio show that plays almost no trad at all. I listen mostly while I'm on the road & that's aabout 5 hrs a day durning the week & at least a couple hrs on the weekend. There are a few specials, like Sandy's on Sat night that does almost all trad but the rest is almost nil. The same station (WUMB) hosts a very large Boston Folk Festival that has practlly no trad (sea shanties get cornered off site onto a small ferrie boat but does well dispite putting it "off shore"). The venues have all slowly done the same thing, excluding trad. The Boston Folk Song Society puts on trad concerts & I believe does ok by it but they have a built in supply of trad lovers that pretty much keep to themselves. Peter Johson once & awhile puts on a trad concert & deos ok y it but because of health & other issues he'll be cutting back, and Peter is almost to one man show (aside from the Boston Folk Song Society) that kept folk music alive in this area back in the 70's & 80's by putting on almost nothing but trad along with Passium's. So in Boston a singer/songwritter, acoustic/folk market was created at the cost of the trad genre & over the past at least 2 or so more decades it's been fed that way until you couldn't get a trad market to to rise up to the surface after going down for trhe third time. I saw Carthy/Waterson not to long ago at the Somerville theather, they were great the crowd was ok (but mostly around my age) but should've been better. When I saw the a number of times back 20 to 30 yrss ago they pulled in much better numbers. I believe that's because trad gets almost no exposure in the Boston area these days. It's just us older folkies that are keeping it alive but we'll die off soon. Singer/songwriters & the others would never have made it this far if they weren't being pushed so hard as a cheaper alt (in the begining & they had to if they wanted to get their foot in the door) & if they weren't so good at PR which played to their market perfectly well but again at the cost to the trad genre. So if there isn't a turn around in orgs like FA & others you can kiss trad coming back into view goodbye.

And Thanks for hepling out & doing your part so well, if only we had more!

Barry

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 02:34 AM

Yes, Ron, I should clarify what I meant. When i said

"They more or less EXCLUDE traditional music from the definition of folk. I deplore this,"

I was really talking about in this one regard of their awards category. I have spoken with many of the people on the board (including the President) and also the ED, and I don't think they generally ignore traditional music.

I do think traditional music could get emphasized more, but I also understand that in giant cluster-f*ck conferences it's not easy to adjust the emphasis!

I disagree with you about much of the rest.

(1) Folk Alliance is not an artistic movement like Beat Poetry or Jazz. It's an organization with by-laws and a voting membership. I've spent my life in such organizations, been a member of some, on paid staffs of others, and boards of still others. They are structured roughly as representational democracies, not artistic movements, with voting rights bestowed on members according to membership category. (In FA there are three institutional categories plus the individual members; institutions get more than one vote.)

(2) People elected to the boards of nonprofit organizations ARE elected leaders, not just facilitators. They run on a platform, and members decide whom to vote for based on that platform. Once elected, the board member is supposed to represent his or her constituents by attempting to enact the platform he or she ran on.

(3) Organizations like this do, in fact, risk becoming tyrannies of the majority. Whoever has the most money, influence, and power can end up determining what art a nonprofit organization will support. In theory, it is the Board's responsibility to make sure the organization maintains the proper balance and support for all types of art within the organization's scope.

As an example, say there's an arts center that has a theater and a gallery, and (unusually for an arts center) a dues-paying voting membership. If all the local visual arts fans had disposable income, and used it to join the organization, but the local theater people were less wealthy, and couldn't afford the dues, the membership might vote to ditch the theater and run only the gallery. This would mean those theater people who HAD joined would have paid into an organization only to be royally screwed. More interesting still: say the mission statement includes both the theater AND the gallery. Then the Board has a decision on its hands: drum up membership among the theater community, or change the mission statement.

How does this apply to Folk Alliance? Well, we're in a similar situation. There seem to be more members interested in singer-songwriter music than in traditional folk music. Because of that, the organization emphasizes the singer-songwriters, to the point of putting them in the "traditional folk" awards category. I think that when the sole awards category devoted to traditional music is taken away by the group with the larger number of voters, it verges on tyranny of the majority.

By the way, in case you're wondering, "traditional folk music" gets top billing in Folk Alliance's mission statement, which is Section Two of the bylaws. It runs like this:

"The North American Folk Music and Dance Alliance (hereafter called The Folk Alliance) exists to foster and promote traditional, contemporary and multicultural folk music, dance and related performing arts in North America. The Folk Alliance seeks to strengthen and advance organizational and individual initiatives in folk music and dance through education, networking, advocacy, and professional and field development."

With that mission statement, it seems to me Folk Alliance should try to drum up more members with an interest in traditional music. It CAN be done, but it takes political will and perhaps a change of emphasis for the Board and staff. If they don't do it, they may find themselves having to change (or simply ignore) their mission statement, becoming the Singer-Songwriter alliance. In some ways they've done so already.

Finally, although I'd be happy to join Ron in putting showcases together, I don't think this problem can be solved by trying to create more showcases devoted to traditional music. If the organization has become skewed toward singer-songwriters, few people will attend those showcases. I think there will have to be some soul-searching about who the members should be. Right now, there is a focus on professionals, for example, and most traditional musicians can't afford to go pro. But FA could, for example, extend free voting membership to winners of traditional music competitions sponsored by institutional FA members. In this kind of scheme, the winners of the various fiddle and banjo and guitar championships at MerleFest and other old-time and bluegrass festivals would become automatic voting members of Folk Alliance as part of their prize. I'm just winging this, of course, so there may be pitfalls to this idea I'm not foreseeing, but it's just one idea for how to get more traditional music people involved.

I think FA has an awful lot of good people, and an awful lot of goodwill. I think it needs to make a concerted effort in this area, and I'm hoping it will. Although I'm not able to go this year, I know I'll be going back, and I'll be talking to board members and staff again. Maybe they'll even like my idea!

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: DebC
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 11:11 AM

Wow...so great that we are having this discussion. I think it is a very important one. Nerd, if I ever do run into you at FA (I won't be there this year as well...have another commitment) please introduce yourself, unless we already know each other :-)

Ron, my good friend Barry, and Nerd all make excellent points. I do think that the "butts in seats" situation is universal no matter who is performing or where the performance is being held. Even though it *is* related to this discussion, I think that it might do us well to separate it from the "Trad at FA" discussion for now. We are talking about the "industry" and how traditional music is treated by the "insiders". I do believe that it does start with us on the inside.

I also want to agree with your statement, Nerd "FA has an awful lot of good people, and an awful lot of goodwill. I think it needs to make a concerted effort in this area, and I'm hoping it will." I believe this as well. It's also the reason I continue to renew my membership and try to attend the conferences.

I don't have any solutions to this either, except to continue doing what I do and hoping that I can "educate" some folks about traditional Anglo-centric song and it's importance in our culture. There are certainly many many more folks who do a much better job at this than I (too many to name, but many who are on the Mudcat as well), but it makes me sad to see them give up because no one will take a chance.

BTW-I do want to salute Alan and Helen Korolenko in New Bedford, MA. They really do "cross-pollinate" the artists in the Summerfest Festival and in their Concert Series. I can't think of any other festival where you will see the most contemporary singer/songwriter along with the most traditional musician on the same stage.

If I do attend NERFA this year, Ron, I'll certainly let you know and we can have a conversation.

Debra
www.DebraCowan.com

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 11:37 AM

Some interesting comments and great food for thought. I can't disagree with anything that has been said. Nerd (sorry, I don't know your real name!), you have some good ideas there for including more "traditional" into the Folk Alliance and I hope you can help to implement them.   After reading your last note, I also think your take on the workings of the organization are more accurate than my earlier comments.   I do think that the Folk Alliance has organizational issues that has been preventing them from attaining or even looking at their goals, and that is a huge problem.

I do want to say one (maybe two) more things. While I know there appears to be a strong resentment to the emphasis on the singer-songwriter movement among Mudcatters (and I do understand your reasons), I do know that there are similar complaints from singer-songwriters that the Folk Alliance is failing them. Too often I hear that "new" songwriters do not have the same opportunities to be heard as the more established acts.

I also see some of those "established" performers traveling around the country living out of the back of their car - working small clubs for guarantees that would barely buy lunch. They continue to pursue their "career" with the same passion that I see evoked by lovers of traditional music, who do not try to make a living from the music. With rare exceptions, these songwriters are not going to become Top 40 artists and start living in penthouses and driving limos. I truly believe their committment to songwriting and performing is every bit as pure as traditionalists who are trying to preseve a culture. These folks may have utilized the Folk Alliance to their benefit, and perhaps their mission is more critical in some aspects. I would never deny a person the ability to make a living in a career path that they choose.

At the same time, I do see the need to help traditionalists maintain THEIR culture. Perhaps I am too optomistic, but I don't share Barry's opinion that we can kiss this music goodbye and only old farts like us are supporting it. This argument has been around since at least the early 20th Century, and it was what inspired the collectors to preserve the music.   There will always be fans, and it will always be a niche.

Personally, I do what I can. My playlists are posted on my website, and I try my best to honor the tradition and perpetuate new writers. At the Hurdy Gurdy, I do try to book a "name" performer, but I am also trying to offer a stage to the traditionalists and up and coming writers.

When I mentioned other artistic movements earlier, I was not referring to the Folk Alliance but rather to "folk" music in general. While I won't try to define it, I do think that artistic movements find their own audience.

A Folk Alliance made up of 100% traditionalists will not make any more inroads if the audience is not there for it.   The biggest challenge may be to overcome sterotypes - folk music is not JUST your grandparents sitting around singing out of tune songs. Society has changed.   People often see folk music as people in flannel shirts and paisley dresses sitting around talking about the good old days.   

Back in those "good old days", pioneers like Ralph Rinzler, John Cohen, Frank Hamilton and others were searching for a music that was important to them and their lives. We have to recognize that a new generation needs their own reasons, and the media plays a role - but is not responsible for creating reasons. People may argue that point, but I feel that the media is more of a barometer and does not change the weather in a non-commercial artform such as folk music.

I would doubt that Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, Gregory Courso and other beat writers got together for an annual convention to determine how to promote their writing. There were seminal events that enabled their work, and I think we need to find our own seminal events to go forward.

It will be a fun ride, and I'm not worried that the train is passing us by.

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 11:48 AM

I'm not taking sides here, but surely Levon Helm should be in the contemporary Artist category, not traditional.His album, Dirt Farmer, is truly incredible by the way.

Charlotte (up on Cripple Creek)

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 12:01 PM

one further note

I see that Levon Helm has also been nominated for a Grammy in in the Traditional Folk Album category for Dirt Farmer.

Charlotte (how can you keep'em down on the farm?)

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 12:13 PM

I have been following this one very closely, and I really do appreciate the insights I am getting, as I am at a point in my musical career where I am starting to do more solo work, with two CD's on the drawing board in initial stages. I have such a strong belief in music as a force for social change, that I surely appreciate the singer songwriters, and love to remind folk singers that Woody Gutherie was a singer songwriter. I have a deep love for trad songs, so when I am performing, I mix them in a lot. I often do this to show how timeless issues are, and how the great stories of the past resonate today.

My point is that awards, and radio shows, it seems to me, must give due to both sides. After all, the tradition is where all of these folks start whether they realize it or not. It's like a six degrees of separation from Leadbelly or Mother Maybelle. I love the current trend towards folk inspired acoustic music, especially the topical stuff, but as a genre we will all too soon realize the error of our ways if we don't give the honor and attention to the traditional songs and the artists that sing them.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 12:24 PM

I'm on the fence about Levon Helm. I agree that he is a contemporary artist, but he is following a trend that honors traditional music and the new CD includes a number of traditional songs, Carter Family and Stanley Brothers songs, as well as a few contemporary pieces. The opposite arguement could be made for not putting him in the contemporary catagory.

The point is, the CD is getting recognition and hopefully it will inspire others to dig back into the tradition as well. If a nomination can succeed in that regard, isn't it a step in the right direction to promoting traditional music? Mick makes a great point about giving due to both sides. Perhaps this is a way.

Mick makes a great point, Woody Guthrie was a singer-songwriter. He used the music that he knew, and that his audience knew, to drive home his message. If he were starting out today, he might choose to be a rap singer!

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 01:06 PM

It might be me, but I find The Folk Alliance Awards to be far more balanced than The BBC Folk Awards (runs for cover*LOL*)

Charlotte (Life Is a Carnival)

Subject: RE: Folk Alliance Awards
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 08:19 PM

As Ron said below:
I would doubt that Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, Gregory Courso and other beat writers got together for an annual convention to determine how to promote their writing. There were seminal events that enabled their work, and I think we need to find our own seminal events to go forward.




I would agree with that. Which is exactly why I find most award ceremonies quite irrelevent ---and more-so in the alleged folk community. Why are Oscars or Grammy's so important? The reason is that they started as (well, the Oscars anyway) as industry awards and now are, basically, hype and publicity comparing apples and oranges. Me---I go for blueberries.

Sure traditional music is nice to keep alive but let us face the facts---it evolves just like all things in this world evolve from constitutional interpretations to interpretations of Gilbert and Sullivan and Mozart. We are not sitting on the old front porch anymore---those porches have been replaced with condos. Sadly--perhaps. Culturally--who knows. We are also not cooking our food in the fireplace as they did in those good old days commemorated at various restorations.

I love to listen to the old music and at the same time like to play the newer people on the program (TRADTIIONS and SUNDAY SIMCHA) coming down the pike---now a turnpike. By the way I mention the other program (Simcha) only to make a point---Traditional Jewish music has also evolved---there is a lot of great new work out there.

So--to awards. Not to burst baloons. Who cares?   I said earlier that the Oscars, etc; are all about hype now so let no one in that--honestly---minute venue---think of it as a prestigious thing. Hell, I was voted Library Director of The Year for Innovation---Who cared! Those in the phone booth with me.

Let me be totally honest here.   I congratulate Ron on his nomination for the Broadcast award. Prestigious company---well, other than one or two the others I have to question that. If you are curious ---Rich Warren? Susan Forbes Hansen?---OK are you watching the laundry dry?

These venues---here comes the honesty part--are like most organizations---insular and political. Free spirits expounding thoughts on the level of a Phil Ochs, Tom Paxton, and Pete Seeger don't seem---to me ---to be a part of this type of venue.

Bill Hahn
I add---here---gently and quietly on tiptoe---WFDU