Folk clubs - what is being sung

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Bert
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:18 AM

... a larger number of pop wannabes using the clubs as a comfort blanket for not having made it big time...

LOL. Too true Jim.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:16 AM

Meself,
I assume you know of the work Cahersiveen man Tim Dennehey has done on the poems of Sigerson Clifford.
Take a look at his site.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 03:20 PM

Thanks, Jim - and here I always thought Kerry was a mere county.

The song is a great favourite of mine ...

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Goose Gander
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:21 AM

"Nowadays we have excellent wall-to-wall traditional music played by musicians across the generations, which means it will be listened to long after we're gone."

I agree, and that is indeed good news.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gene Burton
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:01 AM

That'll be very welcome, Phil.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Phil B
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:12 AM

In reply to
Gene Burton
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 01:53 PM .
Actually, I think most people who sing Cyril Tawney songs learned/adapted them from the singing of others (eg. in clubs, etc.), largely because that's almost the only context in which his songs can be readily heard these days (anybody tried to get hold of his recordings of his own songs in recent years?? You don't find them in HMV). I've known Sally Free and Easy and several other Tawney compositions for many years, but only heard the original recording for the first time last week on Youtube.


After the current project of going through a large amount of unreleased and wonderful Tony Rose material, I will be getting together with Rosemary very shortly to do the same with a whole bunch of Cyrils unreleased recordings.
We will also be making available a one hour interview with Tony talking to Cyril about five years ago. Its absolutely riveting.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: BB
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:54 AM

'Not sure what you mean by "within the context of the folk scene generally, rather than just the clubs." '

What I meant was in more informal sessions in local areas and at festivals.

You just need to know where to look over here, Jim, and it isn't always on Mudcat! :-)

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 03:48 AM

Hello Barbara,
I would really love to be wrong on this one, but whenever I follow threads like this I am left with the impression of a small handful of devotees and a larger number of pop wannabes using the clubs as a comfort blanket for not having made it big time.
I'm not really cynical; I heard enough good singing and attended enough good clubs to keep me interested till I run out of puff, and chose out in order to do other things.
It's enough for me to have been able to spend time with Walter Pardon, Tom Lenihan, Mikeen McCarthy, Mary Delaney and all those other lovely people who left their fingerprints over our lives. It's a nice thought that people will have access to their singing in the future.
Nowadays we have excellent wall-to-wall traditional music played by musicians across the generations, which means it will be listened to long after we're gone.
There is some (not enough, for my taste) excellent singing here from people who respect and enjoy the songs enough to put in the effort.
Didn't get that in my last few experiences in the UK - sorry.
Not sure what you mean by "within the context of the folk scene generally, rather than just the clubs."
Meself;
"The Kingdom" refers to the Kingdom of Kerry, where the song came from (composed by Siggerson Clifford of Cahersiven).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 09:28 PM

Thanks to all of you who have listed songs. I am much impressed with the number and the variety of songs which people are singing for one another.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: meself
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 05:27 PM

Usually when I ask these sorts of questions I don't get an answer, but anyway:

re: 'Boys of Barr na Sráide (to shouts of "C'm'on the Kingdom!")' (from 'way up the thread). What would "C'm'on the Kingdom!" mean, and what relation would it have to 'Boys of Barr na Sráide'?

Curious, from the other side of the pond.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gene Burton
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 03:46 PM

"Gene Burton,you clearly have no idea of the difficulty of professional folk singers /songwriters have trying to earn a living."

Oh, believe me, I've every reason to. No matter how poor I get, though, I retain a sense of humour- unlike some.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 03:08 PM

Somebody told me recently that there's a Bob Dylan bootleg CD somewhere with a very young Dylan singing Sally...; which is credited on the sleeve as "Trad"...and why not??
WhyNot?
because Cyril could have probably done with the royalties.
Gene Burton,you clearly have no idea of the difficulty of professional folk singers /songwriters have trying to earn a living.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: BB
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:45 PM

"The old songs are being preserved in the clubs, the new songs are not being taken up, adapted and passed on; by your own words 'ordinary people' don't get to hear them. They remain static and unchanged, and more often than not composers hang a price tag (copyright) on them so they don't travel."

Some of these statements are simply not true. The old songs *are* being preserved and changed, many new songs *are* being taken up, adapted and passed on. As explained below, they do *not* remain static and unchanged, and although copyright exists on many songs, most writers are more than happy that their songs are sung, and even changed. That's the way the songs get known, and someone may get round to recording them. All they want is acknowledgement that they were written by them. Most are only concerned about copyright when money is being made out of singing and/or recording them.

"any changes that might be happening to the songs appear to me to be happening within the context of the clubs, not communities as a whole, and are deliberate, self-conscious ones"

The changes are happening largely within the context of the folk scene generally, rather than just the clubs, and yes, I think that does constitute a community of a kind, but I can't accept that many of the changes are deliberate, self-conscious ones, or that quite a few of the songs aren't learnt by oral transmission rather than through recordings, books, etc. The more well-known ones are absorbed almost by osmosis, often gleaned from the singing of many different people, and therefore changes do take place quite by accident and unconsciously. I'm not saying this makes them traditional necessarily, but it does go some way to fulfilling the 1954 definition.

And no, this doesn't apply to the works of Butterworth, etc., as those changes were totally conscious, require performance generally by an orchestra or a group of musicians reading from the (fixed) dots, and not passed on to others to perform in any other way.

Sadly, your experience has caused you to have a very jaundiced view of the folk scene in England, and I think there are quite large parts of it that don't deserve your cynicism.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:25 PM

"But we are wandering from the thread's core."
Now there's a turn up for the book
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gene Burton
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:02 PM

That was intentionally facetious, Richard, though no more facetious than your statement that it isn't a folksong...I HOPE...

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 01:58 PM

Cos it ain't!

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gene Burton
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 01:53 PM

Actually, I think most people who sing Cyril Tawney songs learned/adapted them from the singing of others (eg. in clubs, etc.), largely because that's almost the only context in which his songs can be readily heard these days (anybody tried to get hold of his recordings of his own songs in recent years?? You don't find them in HMV). I've known Sally Free and Easy and several other Tawney compositions for many years, but only heard the original recording for the first time last week on Youtube.

Somebody told me recently that there's a Bob Dylan bootleg CD somewhere with a very young Dylan singing Sally...; which is credited on the sleeve as "Trad"...and why not??

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:29 AM

That creates quite a deep problem for the definition, since then we have no communities, other than the various microcosms through which we move. But we are wandering from the thread's core.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 03:02 AM

Richard,
I go along part of the way with your argument, but any changes that might be happening to the songs appear to me to be happening within the context of the clubs, not communities as a whole, and are deliberate, self-conscious ones. I don't believe that this counts, (but I'm willing to be persuaded) unless you believe that the clubs are communities - an argument which has been put forward by some American folklorists, who also include work-places such as offices in their definition.
If we accept this, should we then not include in our definition the works of Butterworth, Vaughan Williams, Grainger, Britten and Kodaly as 'folk', all of whom changed songs and tunes and had their work accepted by large groups of people.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 10:05 PM

Jim, I must disagree. "New" is a relative term, and above Gene admits that he sings "Sally Free and Easy" - which is not folk (although I do a version of it that is fairly heavily not "in the style of the tradition" so it is being adopted and modified).

I also do a version of "The ballad of Sammy's bar" in which I invert part of the melody.

Both songs are widely sung, and in their adoption they are changing (as is "Ride On"). The parts of the 1954 definition that are not met are that the transmission is often not by the oral process and that the composers are usually remembered - but for other songs that last part is sometimes met, too, for example "Fiddlers Green" and some MacColls.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 06:24 PM

"I think this thread has pretty much established that folk clubs are presenting and preserving a lot of great songs which are not yet considered 'folk'."
Not for me it hasn't, but that's my taste, which is not under discussion.
Whether songs will become folk is a non-starter because the process which made songs folk no longer exists.
The old songs are being preserved in the clubs, the new songs are not being taken up, adapted and passed on; by your own words 'ordinary people' don't get to hear them. They remain static and unchanged, and more often than not composers hang a price tag (copyright) on them so they don't travel.
As far as 'dumbing down' is concerned your posting to me reeks of condescension - 'we gotta give the people what they understand" sorry, that's how it reads to me.
Most people certainly are not ordinary, most people are individuals with abilities, knowledge and experiences which make them/us all unique.'Other people' listen to and perform folk music - not enough of them maybe.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 05:56 PM

The point of this thread was to see what those songs are and perhaps find a collective name for them so that the definition purists won't be disappointed when they turn up at a venue.
A Songwriter by the name of Jim Garrett had acollection of his songs published by the EFDSS,some years ago,he called them JimsYolk songs,some of the songes were good.but overall it was a Curates Egg.
much like the songs that ares sung in Folk Clubs.
so I suggest Yolk Songs.go to work on an egg,and go to sing in a Yolk Club.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:56 PM

unwheildy/unweeldey/unwielldy clumsy. Yeah, clumsy. But DON'T change the acronym. Took me a half hour to learn it.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:56 PM

MAEFAIOMITPWOTANTSBSAPWCAIS

took me less time to type without the quotation marks *LOL*

Charlotte (always looking for a short cut)

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:53 PM

Modern and essential folk-influenced artistic interpretations of meaningfulness in the present world of topical and non topical songwriting by singers and performers who care about important stuff. Perhaps we could use "MAEFAIOMITPWOTANTSBSAPWCAIS" for short. If the quotation marks make that unweildy, just leave them out.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Bert
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:37 PM

Jim - By ordinary people I kinda meant those who don't go to folk clubs or song circles, perhaps I should have said 'other people'.

Where do you get the correlation between 'ordinary' and 'dumb'? Most people are ordinary. 'Dumb' (your choice of words) people are below average and therefore not ordinary.

I think this thread has pretty much established that folk clubs are presenting and preserving a lot of great songs which are not yet considered 'folk'.

The point of this thread was to see what those songs are and perhaps find a collective name for them so that the definition purists won't be disappointed when they turn up at a venue.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gene Burton
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:34 PM

Well, I only just about scrape 5'8'' on a good day...got a little while to go til I'm 35 though!

It was I who sang Sally Free and Easy...I like to pay a little lip service to the F*** Police every now and again...LOL

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:14 PM

"There was a lot of good stuff sung on Friday, much of it very well- I ought to make it down more often... "

I hope YOU were singing, too, Gene. If you don't know, he has a wonderful voice. When I'm 6'2" and 35 again I'll sound like that.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:11 PM

That Pete Coe is "The Gay Fusilier".

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gene Burton
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 06:15 AM

Thanks Amber!

There was a lot of good stuff sung on Friday, much of it very well- I ought to make it down more often...

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: amber
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 05:37 AM

At the Black Diamond on Friday,some of the songs were: A Miner's Life, Sally Free and Easy (this was great Gene), High Barbary, She was a Sweet Little Dickie Bird, A Recruiting Sargeant came to Rochester ?(Pete Coe), The Garden Where the Praties Grow I sang The Keeper and My Grandfather's Clock.

At Redditch Folk Club on Saturday we heard Bonny Light Horeseman, On The Bonny Banks of Loch Lomond, Hallelujah, Spanish Lady, etc.

I have just learnt The Four Maries, Bonny Dundee (a great chrous), Eileen Oge and am contemplating learning Jock of Hazeldean, which I think is a lovely song, but as I usually sing unacompanied might be a bit challenging. I'll think about it.



Amber

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 04:56 AM

In my experience folk songs are 'extraordinary' - that is why they have been passed down and have survived for centuries.
Bert's idea of 'ordinary' songs for 'ordinary' people smacks to me of 'dumbing down' - the bland attracting the bland, so to speak.
As an 'ordinary' person, (lousy state education, brought up on various Liverpool housing estates, apprenticeship on the docks, work as electrician until retirement...... yattata yattata) I believe 'ordinary' people are quite capable of accepting and understanding anything that is made available. I was introduced to the works of Thomas Hardy by the very 'ordinary' jobbing carpenter Walter Pardon. To suggest that they/we are not capable of appreciating folk song proper is patronisingly insulting - after all, it was 'ordinary' people who made and perpetuated the folk songs and (97 verse) ballads in the first place.
Don
Dublin has 2 folk clubs (maybe not called such), The Goilín and he Clée Club; both specialising in what I would refer to as folk songs and corresponding more or less to their UK counterparts. I was in the latter on Wednesday listening to two Scots singers of (mainly) bothy songs.
'Ballads' (a throwback to 'the ballad boom' in the 60s and 70s), as you say, refers to the more popularised end of the folk repertoire plus the songs recorded by John McCormack... et al. The term also includes the song sheets (broadsides) that were sold around the fairs and markets, mainly by Travellers, right up to the 1950s (the best remembered one around here being 'The Rocks of Bawn'). It's worth remembering that if you ask the 'ordinary' man-in-the-street in the UK you are quite likely to be given 'Strangers in The Night' as an example of a ballad.
On the other hand, 50 Child ballad titles have been recorded over the last 40 years from source singers, including several, (Lord Gregory, Prince Robert, Young Hunting, The Maid and The Palmer, The Suffolk Miracle, Johnny Scott, The Demon Lover... etc) that have disappeared totally from the British traditional repertoire.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gulliver
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 11:04 PM

I was criticized above for listing songs from pub sessions rather than a "folk club". I'd just like to explain that I don't know of any "folk clubs" in Dublin (or certainly not designated as such). But I didn't see why this provision should exclude a contribution of songs as sung in gatherihgs in Ireland. Most of the sessions I attend have a similar format to clubs I've seen in England, and the music is billed as "folk, ballads, traditional" ("ballads" in Dublin parlance refers to music popularized by the Dubliners, Clancy Brothers, Wolfe Tones, etc.). There is no amplification, and practically everyone at the session is there to participate or listen.

Don

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Eccles The Folk Singer (very ordinary)
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 02:52 PM

but is it folk, folks?
Ummm...

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 02:15 PM

I'd be curious to know who the "ordinary people" are too.

What a sales pitch - "COME ON ALL YOU ORDINARY PEOPLE, ROLL UP FOR AN EVENING OF THE ORDINARYEST ORDINARY MUSIC YOU EVER HEARD IN YOUR ORDINARY LIFE!"

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Snuffy
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 01:58 PM

What is an 'ordinary' song? Perhaps you ought to start a thread on that subject, Jim!

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHH.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Bert
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 01:55 PM

LOL Jim.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 01:44 PM

What is an 'ordinary' song?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Bert
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 12:58 PM

...I'm intrigued by the idea that we can change language because it doesn't suit our personal preferences....

I would be quite happy to include any of the above songs under the Folk label but the purists don't like it.

Also, unfortunately, "Folk Music" is not appreciated by many ordinary people; but they might attend venues if they knew that other ordinary songs are being presented. This kinda makes a mockery of the more strict definitions of folk music.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 03:45 AM

Sorry, didn't get a chance to read the addition postings properly last night.
"I just hate the idea that songs should be "banned" from a club purely on the basis of when they were written."
Did I miss something - where has anybody suggested that songs should be 'banned'?
I'm intrigued by the idea that we can change language because it doesn't suit our personal preferences.... wonder if Banjiman would care to expand on the idea.
Do we have a referendum; circulate ballot forms, open polling booths, campaign.
Or maybe we take the Humpty Dumpty approach; "A word means what I want it to mean".
The Achilles Heel of all these arguments of course is, no matter how vehemently the 'anything goes' school argue, they NEVER manage (or bother) to produce an alternative definition.
The standard definition of 'folk song' has been in use for half a century and runs as follows:
"Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.
The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.
The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character."
That more-or-less covers the 'folk' songs I have been listening to and enjoying for the last forty years, and makes a fair stab at describing the many thousands of 'folk' songs discussed or reproduced in the hundreds of books on the subject lining my bookshelves.
Anybody wishing to adapt or replace it is welcome to offer an alternative, but as far as I'm concerned this needs to be based on what has gone before rather than personal taste. In that way, maybe we can avoid snide and inane references to 'woolly jumpers', 'finger-in-ear' and '97 verse ballads'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gene Burton
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 07:08 PM

Democracy? When I hear that word, I reach for my gun...

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 05:40 PM

You see, the problem with democracy is that there are always more ignorant, stupid people than intelligent, well informed ones...

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 01:25 PM

Thank you Brian - tried to add 'if that was the writers intention to my posting but didn't have time'.
'folk" is a term used by the masses to describe more than just traditional song?'
The 'masses' by and large, tend to ignore folk song - surely we go to those involved for our information - unless you just want to score points of course.
Genealogy will always be an 'alogy' no matter how many people refer to it as an 'ology' (until somebody gets around to altering it official.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Willa
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 08:00 AM

Monday night also included:
Round Goes the Wheel of Fortune
Foggy Foggy Dew
A Thousand Miles Behind ...still more but can't remember them all!

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Willa
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 07:34 AM

Sung at Beverley last Monday
I Live Not Where I Love
Rose of Allandale
Spencer the Rover
Jim Jones
Raglan Road
She Moved Through the Fair
Captain Webb
Recruited Collier
Little Gypsy Girl
Fiddler's Green (John Conolly)
Northern Tide (Linda Kelly)
Sweet Minerva (Linda Kelly)
With God On Our Side (Bob Dylan)

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 05:34 AM

Theres two possibilities at work.

One, I am completely delusional.

Two, I am being pursued by a gang of hitmen, who are trying to kill me off by playing repeated versions of Fire and rain and and the John denver songbook, plus assorted favourites from the 1960's and a smattering of r and b favourites.

Sometimes they change their disguise and become two adolescents who sing completely unrecognisable songs, which are anguished in content.

Isn't that what happens in folk clubs? the good ones, I mean.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Sedayne (Astray)
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 05:07 AM

Looking back through my wee book this past couple of months here's what I've been singing in singarounds (Flootweed, Chorlton, Byker and Durham). Note that the first two are what I plan to sing tonight at The Steamer by way of a suitable contribution to Valentine's Day. Also note that I accompany myself on one of two Hungarian Citeras, the Welsh Crwth, and the Turkish Kemence.

Alifib (Robert Wyatt) (Citera Alpha)
The Witch Mother (Child #6) (Citera Alpha)
The Wee Wee Man (Child #38) (Citera Alpha)
Mutton Pie (Unaccompanied)
Dragonfly (Dave Cousins) (Citera Alpha)
Twa Corbies (not the usual one) (Citera Alpha)
Rambling Comber (Citera Alpha)
My Blue Eyed Mountain Queen (Citera Alpha)
Cherry Owld Grye / Poor Old Horse (Unaccompanied duet with Rapunzel)
Thousands or More (Unaccompanied)
Earl Brand (Child #7) (Citera Beta)
The Nateby Babies (Ron Baxter, set to an Almaine from The Baltic Lute Book c/o Roger Nicholson) (Citera Alpha)
A Pilgrims Way (Kipling / Bellamy) (Citera Alpha)
Willie & Earl Richard's Daughter (Child #102) (Kemence)
Woodcutter's Song (Unaccompanied duet with Rapunzel)
The Housecarpenter (Kemence)
The Candlelight Fisherman's Friend (The Candlelight Fisherman sung to my own tune) (kemence)
Marley Hill Ducks (Tommy Armstrong) (Citera Alpha)
King Henry (Child #32) (Crwth)
The Iron Stone (Robin Williamson) (Citera Alpha)
Herod and the Cock (Citera Alpha)
Danny Deever (Kipling / Bellamy) (Citera Alpha)
Binnorie (Child #10) (Citera Alpha)
The Way Through the Woods (Kipling / Bellamy) (Citera Alpha)
Black Dog and Sheep Crook (Crwth)
Cholera Camp (Kipling / Bellamy) (Citera Alpha)
Buy Broom Buzzems (Kemence)
Innocent Hare (Sportsmen Arouse) (Citera Alpha)
Turfman From Ardee (Citera Alpha)
Sir Olaf (Citera Alpha)
The Cruel Mother (Child #20) (Citera Alpha)
King Orfeo (Child #19) (Citera Alpha)
Amsterdam (Brel, partly Schuman, partly me) (Citera Alpha)
Banks o' Sicily (Hamish Henderson) (Citera Alpha)
My Boy Jack (Kipling / Bellamy) (Citera Alpha)
Anne Boleyn (With Her Head Tucked Underneath Her Arm) (Citera Alpha)

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 03:23 AM

Outsider, why are you hiding behind a guest persona? You are just undermining any point you are trying to make.

Please find my post regarding (some of) what we sing at folk clubs above (details below)........is yours here?

From: Banjiman - PM
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 08:15 AM



Bert, OK. You clearly feel strongly about this, no more posts from me on this thread.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 03:13 AM

Bert and slightly rude 'Outsider'... once a thread goes into the public domain you can't control it - it becomes the shared property of all contributors. If you want a thread you can edit, censor or police you'd have to ask the moderators if they'll let you have one. Otherwise it's like a chat in the pub, it goes where it goes. And no-one likes constantly being told to keep to the point!

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Outsider
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 09:52 PM

Banjiman wrote: "I'm not responding to mysterious "Guests"...get on board if you have an opinion!!!"

The point, dear Banjiman, is not to express opinions on this thread. You and a handful of others are behaving behaving quite selfishly by rabbiting on about a subject that has not only been thrashed out umpteen times before, but has NO PLACE on this thread--much to the frustration of poor Bert who originated the thread. Are you stubborn, headstrong, or too full of your own importance to notice this? (you need not reply--save the bandwidth for those who want to make proper use of the thread)

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 07:36 PM

I suggest some of these people go to a few folk clubs - theres a bit of banner waving for ones own view of what is folkmusic going on here.

I've been to three folk clubs this week and the words 'reality check' is looming ominously up before me.

Oh yeh, I forgot some of you don't go to folk clubs any more. Reality is so disappointing for the idealist.

Perhaps if you renamed the thread, songs we wish were being sung continually in folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Bert
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 06:35 PM

The purpose of this thread is to find out what is being sung by folk singers and in folk clubs.

The purpose of this thread is to define what is a folk song.

Please make your posts to the appropriate thread.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 02:46 PM

Brian,

Jim Woodland....Ghost Story? A great song, I do that one!

Fascinating stuff.....I'm sure I would be far more easily fooled than you, I come back to the key point though.....surely the key thing is that you enjoy the song? I know some of the other song's you mention (I had assumed "Bring Us a Barrel" was trad) and will seek out the others.

The rest of it (i.e. a song's history etc) I find interesting, but no more interesting than the story behind any, even a (good, folky sounding) modern song.

I have no problem arguing the toss of balance of trad versus modern, I just hate the idea that songs should be "banned" from a club purely on the basis of when they were written.....but I think we are teasing out that this is not really the case, it is more to do with how they sound?

Thanks

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Brian Peters
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 02:10 PM

>> "...depends on how well they are written" . This suggests to me that you are saying that "traditional" songs are inherently better than "modern" songs, except where you think that isn't the case? <<

I won't presume to speak for Jim, but perhaps what he meant was "depends on how well they succeed in mimicking traditional style" - which would assume that the writer was actually trying to make the song sound 'traditional' (and that depends on what we mean by 'traditional' - but let's not go there just now). Personally I would hope that someone with plenty of experience of the genre could spot a modern attempt to compose a song in the style of a Child Ballad, or indeed of a 19th-century English lyrical song - a modern composer would find it awkward to use the same kind of language, for a start. However, if you want an example of a modern song that did convince me, try Dave Webber's "Bonnet and Shawl", which is a dead ringer for a traditional song. His "Lady of Autumn", though, didn't fool me for a minute (and that's not to pass a value judgement on either). 'Bring Us A Barrel', another song often quoted as 'sounding traditional', would have deceived my ears twenty years ago, but having spent all the intervening period looking at the old songs, I doubt that it would if I heard it for the first time now.

The songs of Leon Rosselson and Jim Woodland, to name but two, don't sound remotely traditional, but are great songs fully deserving a hearing in folk clubs. My own tastes would still prefer traditional songs to be in the majority, though.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 11:56 AM

OK

Bert (I'm not responding to mysterious "Guests"...get on board if you have an opinion!!!) apologies, but please indulge us. You might be bored with this debate but clearly some of us aren't and I'm enjoying discussing this in measured terms (after some initial posturing by all of us!) rather than the hysterical point scoring I've seen elsewhere on Mudcat regarding this subject.

Richard, I accept that you are not placing a value judgement on songs whether they are trad or not, you are just searching for a term that all can agree on to describe a form of music. However, it seems to me that you might be trying to close the door after the horse has bolted...i.e. "folk" is a term used by the masses to describe more than just traditional song? This might not be "correct" but it is a reality?

Jim,

"Not necessarily - depends on how well they are written" . This suggests to me that you are saying that "traditional" songs are inherently better than "modern" songs, except where you think that isn't the case? That sounds a bit harsh and I don't mean it to be....I guess it means that there is a glimmer of hope that you might not consider all modern songs to be rubbish....which is the only point I've been trying to make. i.e. it is not a song's provenance that defines it's quality (or how much you like it!), it is something inherent in the song itself.

Paul (thanking you all for indulging me in this fascinating discussion)

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,dulcimerjohn
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 09:27 AM

Steve Gelette wrote Darcy Farrow as a 'contemporary' version of a traditional tune, I learned the version I do from a Mill Run Dulcimer Band album (Sunday at the Mill). Has a bit of a cowboy feel, would be good to do in conjunction with something like 'Big Iron'.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 04:04 AM

Richard's mention of Darcy Farrow is, I think, a good example of how a 'modern' song can pass into the 'tradition', albeit my own tradition. I sing it but have never heard a recorded version. It was being sung at Wimborne by two different people and I absorbed the melody over time, liked it so I went and found the words. I added it to my own repertoire although I've never sung it when the people I learned it from are present! I know the story behind it and am aware that there are a hundred or so recorded versions, including John Denver's, but to me it was just another song that I wanted to learn and sing. And I do it differently to the others at Wimborne - one does it as a bluegrass number and the other in a rather 'skiffly' manner.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 03:30 AM

I sing 99 florins in Bsharp.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 03:29 AM

Banjiman,
No, money is not the issue; communication is (an issue maybe). We simply need to know that we are talking about the same thing.
If you are going to include all the songs on the above lists under th term 'folk song' there has to be a definition which covers thm all.
If I buy a tin of soup labeled 'mushroom' and it turns out to be tomato, I'm not very happy about it. If it continues to happen I eventually go to another shop - simple as that.
The issue of money only arises when organisations like EFolkDSS apply for grants to aid their work. God knows, there have been enough threads on this lately.
Do I think I could recognise.....?
Not necessarily - depends on how well they are written
Somebody mentioned Evelyn Wells book, 'The Ballad Tree' on another thread. There is a revealing chapter there on ballad imitations.
Can I just clear up one point. I am in no way opposed to newly written songs being sung at folk clubs; there is a wonderful songwriting movement here in Ireland (Con 'Fada' O'Driscoll, Fintan Vallely, Sean Moan, Tim Lyons, etc - all composing folk-style). I share MacColl's dream of new songs being written using traditional poetic methods because I believe that the form that the 'folk' composed in gave the songs a universality which enabled them to travel and take root elsewhere; a shared, communal culture. It didn't happen. Most of today's written songs I find to be introspective and private (stillborn). No harm in that if that's what you want to do, but it's not folk.
Greg,
Nice list - not enough contemporary songs...... please don't take me seriously.
Outsider- Bert,
With respect, any thread like this is bound to stray into the form and quality of what is sung in clubs - long may that be the case if we are going to value the clubs. (we haven't mentioned standards of singing yet).
Must go - going to miss my train
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 03:16 AM

Oh no, I thought I had made that clear many times. Whether a song is "folk" to me implies no judgment about its merit. THere are some excellent modern songs, and some crap ones, and in 50 years the crap ones will have been forgotten. Most folk songs have have been filtered through the memories of generations and so the most forgettable have been forgotten already.

And no, there are quite a few contemporary songs that will often fool the casual listen and often be thought folk songs. Some would be

3 score and 10 (which I do)
Fiddlers Green
The gay fusilier (Pete Coe)(which I do)
Darcy Farrow (US, but still sounds US trad)
The importunate child (which I do)

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Bert
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 07:46 PM

Well said Outsider.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Outsider
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 07:32 PM

I am really enjoying the lists here. I don't see why these other debates (which are just repeats ad nauseam of posts going back years) can't be held somewhere else, and keep this thread on topic.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 05:20 PM

Richard,

Very poetic, I like it.

....and yes, I do want to know where a song comes from...but not as part of a value judgement as to it's worth. I felt that was what was being hinted at above.

Richard, Jim, Dick,

A genuine question. Do you think you would always know if a song was trad or of more recent, known authorship on just hearing it and without any background information?

Thanks

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 05:04 PM

Why? Because if you don't know where you came from you don't know who you are.

Because the mystery of so many real folk songs lies in their many possible meanings.

If you look at a painting don't you want to know about it?

If you see an architectural marvel don't you want to know who the architect was? Don't you wonder about the difference between a Norman arch and a Roman arch?

You see a cityscape, with bricked up arches and new openings and buildings attached to each other. Don't you wonder how they got like that?

You drink a fine wine, don't you want to know what it is?

You drink a fine beer, don't you want to know what it is?

I could not embrace ignorance so readily as some, it seems.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Tootler
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 03:22 PM

Here is my list

I started going to folk clubs regularly just over a year ago. I quickly realised a need to learn a lot more songs than I knew if I wasn't going to repeat myself too often. To this end, I kept a record of what I sang. Here is the list (FWIW)

As Sylvie Was a-Walking (Trad)
Banks O' Sicily (Hamish Henderson)
Barbara Allen (Trad)
Barnyards O' Delgaty (Trad)
Boars Head Carol (Trad)
Bonnie Lass of Fyvie (Trad)
Bonny at Morn (Trad)
Bonny Earl of Moray (Trad)
Both Sides the Tweed (Dick Gaughan)
Brigg Fair (Trad)
Carrickfergus (Trad)
Craw Killed the Pussy (Trad)
D-Day Dodgers (Anon)
Dalesman's Litany (F W Moorman)
Dirty Old Town (Ewan MacColl)
Grim King of the Ghosts (C.17 Broadside)
Harvest Home (C.17 Broadside, but originally John Dryden/Henry Purcell)
Holmfirth Anthem (Trad)
How Can Ye Gang Lassie (Trad)
I Loved a Lass (Trad)
Jennifer Gentle (Trad)
Jock O' Hazeldean (Walter Scott)
Johnnie's Gone to Hilo (Trad)
Jovial Beggar (Trad)
Katie Bairdie (Trad)
Last Thing on My Mind (Tom Paxton)
Leaving of Liverpool (Trad)
Leezie Lindsay (Trad)
Lyke Wake Dirge (Trad)
MacPherson's Rant (Trad)
Mill Mill O (Trad)
Mormond Braes (Trad)
Never Weather Beaten Sail (Thomas Campion)
Nightingale Sings (Trad)
Fhair a Bhata - in English translation (Trad)
Piper O' Dundee (Trad)
Ploughboy Lads (Trad)
Raglan Road (Patrick Kavanagh)
Ramblin' Boy (Tom Paxton)
Rosin the Beau (Trad)
Rounding the Horn (Trad)
Rovin' Ploughboy (Trad)
Ruben Ranzo (Trad)
Shenandoah (Trad)
Side of a Hill (Paul Simon)
Sun is Burning (Ian Campbell)
The Navigators (C.19 Broadside)
Three Ravens (Trad)
Tramps & Hawkers (Trad)
Unquiet Grave (Trad)
Well Below the Valley-o (Trad)
Westlin' Winds (Robert Burns)
Where Have All the Flowers Gone? (Pete Seeger)
Wild Mountain Thyme (Trad?)
Ye Banks & Braes (Robert Burns)

I make it about 70% of these are traditional songs.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 02:39 PM

A very interesting thread, both the usual revisited arguments, and the actual lists which I find intriguing. Assuming people are being honest, it is educative to see what is, rather than what people think ought to be.
Here is my list, as far as I can remember, from the two sets the Boat Band played at the last folk club we played at: the Musical Traditions Club, at the King and Queen in Fitzrovia,London.

(not in performance order)
Trip to the Lakes (trad English jig)
Chester Castle/Chester Hornpipe(trad English hornpipe)
The Willow Tree (trad English song)
Lyme Park/Slip it in Easy (trad English jigs)
The Gypsy Princess(trad Irish tune)
Eunice Two Step(trad cajun, possibly written Amadee Ardoin)
Chere Ici, Chere La Bas(trad creole, possibly written Bois-Sec Ardoin)
Iko Iko (trad New Orleans street song)
Keswick Bonny Lasses/Stables Grand Hornpipe(trad English/Welsh?)
Je M'Endors (trad cajun)
Alfred Hughes' Waltz/Shrewsbury Waltz(trad English)
Bosco Blues(Cajun, Iry Lejeune/trad)
E Hine(contemporary Maori, can't remember name of author)
Trip to Galloway/My Love is but a lassie yet/Whitehaven Volunteers/Through the Wood Spinning(trad Anglo-Scottish)
Sultan's Polka(trad English)
Cumberland Reel/Carlisle Races(trad English jigs)
Valse des Cherokees(trad cajun).

That's about it, might have been one or two others. Wish I made lists at the time, they would be interesting twenty years on!
I hope Jim Carrol is satisfied by the high level of trad material!
All the floor singers were pretty damn trad too, but then it's a very traddy club!

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 02:05 PM

Dick,

Thanks, yes I saw it....and a fine list it was too, good stuff (and you know from previous interactions I like what you do)....just not the only good stuff is my point!

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 02:00 PM

Paul,I provided a list,I live inIreland.
my gig at Skibberren singers club,was very close to that list ,they asked me to sing English Folksongs,and very happy they were with my repertoire and performance.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 01:50 PM

Jim,

OK, I like the pragmatic response....so money is the issue?

"a huge part of our history and unwritten culture, largely unavailable elsewhere - not to everybody's interest, but....." completely within my range of interests, but aren't many "modern folk" songs doing the same thing with regards to more recent history and current affairs? The best (and sometimes not!)of these might survive to inform future generations of our life & times.

I'm sorry to hear that you have stopped singing. I would be interested to find out what is being sung on your side of the water.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 01:46 PM

>> "I do think it is important to know what is what and where it comes from."

Richard, why?<<

How about good, honest curiosity, for a start? Who, enjoying a song, would not want to know where it came from?

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Saro
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 01:44 PM

Getting back to what is being sung, here's a recent CMR set list
Guist Ploughman (Barber)
The Sailing Trade (trad)
Farewell He (trad)
Low Down in the Broom (trad)
Twa Magicians (trad)
Peppers and Tomatoes (MacTell)
The Smows of winter Graeme Miles)
Rob Em All (?)
Summon Up the Sun (o'Connor)
Jackie Munro (trad)
The Batley Miner (trad)
Red winged Blackbird (Wheeler)
Guard Yer man Weel (handle)
Bonny Hawthorn (trad)
Minnie o' Shirva's Cradle Song (trad)
Ma Bonny Lad (trad)
Crossing the Bar (Tennyson/Arbo)
Wonderful sucking Pig (trad)
Keep You in Peace (Morgan)

Best wishes

Saro

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 01:41 PM

Why?
Because as well as being bloody good entertainment it also contains a huge part of our history and unwritten culture, largely unavailable elsewhere - not to everybody's interest, but.....
On a more down-to-earth note; try telling the man who doles out the grants "well, I can't really define it; I don't go in much for definitions - but give us the money anyway".
Paul, stopped singing around the time I stopped going to the clubs.
Be happy to provide you with lists of songs that were performed at The Singers, and other clubs I have been involved with - when I get back from Dublin - going to hear a couple of bothy singers there tomorrow.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 01:35 PM

I hope the road is good to you Brendy. I've enjoyed your contributions to the 'cat and look forward to exchanging further ideas in the future.

Cheers for now.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 01:32 PM

Well folks, it's all been fairly interesting this past few months, as the shuttlecock that is known as Folk Music, has gotten itself volleyed backwards and forwards over that high net.

... and never yet has it touched the ground...

I'm away now until Easter, offline for most of that, but all being well I shall return with my metaphorical Slazenger in hand, to once more tog out on the winning side, and keep that bird flying a bit longer. ;-)

I've had a nice winter with ye all, but the road beckons me back to the land of the green, red and blue troopers, and my fingers will have grown fingers of their own by the time I get back

I've promised a few people I would check out a few things for them while I'm out there, so I'll take this opportunity to tell you that I'll do my best to see what I can find out.

Take it easy folks and keep the flag flying.

From a fellow flag-flyer.

B.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 01:09 PM

ooops guest above was me at work....sorry!

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 09:53 AM

"I do think it is important to know what is what and where it comes from."

Richard, why?

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 08:58 AM

While I would not seek to prescribe who should like what,

while the categories of music are not susceptible of being ranked by merit,

while I tend to like "folk" (1954 definition) music better than much more modern music of the style and otherwise dubbed "folk" but also like a range of modern musics

I do think it is important to know what is what and where it comes from.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 08:08 AM

"I firmly believe that a good song is a good song. I enjoy hearing them sung, especially in a "folk" style. There are lot's of good songs mentioned in the various posts above, I am completely agnostic as to whether they are "trad", self penned or borrowed off another writer."

That's two of us then.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jon Nix
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 06:17 AM

As long as all tastes are catered for somewhere, then I suppose it does not matter whether a particular club claims to be "folk" ou "acoustic" or even "semi-electric".
The main thing is that people are continuing the tradition of performing live. Rather than becoming a nation full of i-POD carriers, with headsets buzzing away, drowing out the real world.
That is perhaps the truest "tradition" we are following, rather than the style of music.
What do you think?

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 04:30 AM

At risk of thread drift, the "electric experiment" is not over - much to the horror of some and glee of others I use amplified mandolin (I call it my "mandoplank") to accompany the Morris side I play for.

I rebuilt it to use humbucking pickups because I prefer the sound, and at present can set it on the amp to sound fairly like a mandolin, use a graphics pedal to produce a not-too distorted but very trebly bite, and a so-called "Metal" pedal to produce a whine with sustain that can be used to play melodies and sound vaguely reminiscent of an electric violin, or thrash out chords for an effect somewhere between the Who and Metallica.

An unamplified mandolin was simply not keeping up with the melodeons and banjo - much less the drums and the accordion player whose 80-bass is really a midi controller and depending on the hat he has on canbe anything from a trombone to a banjo to a pipe organ to a grand piano or even a peal of churchbells - and whose amplifier has a LOT more grunt than mine.

One of the drummers can also play a bit of bass guitar but I have not yet persuaded him that lugging a dirty great bass amp and huge batteries for it is a good idea!

This Sweeps Festival I might be participating in an arrangement of a Carolan harp piece for three mandolins and bass guitar - I don't normally play Irish but that might be fun!

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 04:08 AM

Jim, You'll be glad you got that off your chest, a couple of points.

Firstly an apology when I said:

"It is the image (being perpetuated by the BBC at the moment) of fingers in ears, woolly jumpers and 97 verse unaccompanied ballads that puts people off)."

it should have read "(being perpetuated by the Guardian at the moment)" you can find details on another thread.

Secondly, I would be really interested in seeing a set list/ club night list from you. I might learn something!

I firmly believe that a good song is a good song. I enjoy hearing them sung, especially in a "folk" style. There are lot's of good songs mentioned in the various posts above, I am completely agnostic as to whether they are "trad", self penned or borrowed off another writer.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 03:38 AM

Banjiman
"It is the image (being perpetuated by the BBC at the moment) of fingers in ears, woolly jumpers and 97 verse unaccompanied ballads that puts people off)."
Balls! Folk music as I (and the dictionaries) know it, covers tragic, comic, fast, slow, lyrical, narrative, melodic, angular... dozens of musical and poetic forms. The subjects include bawdry, eroticism, rural idylls, murder, seduction, rape, political and social struggle, social misalliance, ritual, satire, high comedy and low farce, crime, birth, marriage, death, industrial labour, seafaring, military, war, work, pleasure.... you name it, its there in the repertoire. If you can point out any other song-form which covers such a wide and varied spectrum, please do so. If the Beeb's idea of folk song is yours, I'm afraid its not for you and you really should look elswhere else for your diversion.
Since when did we have to rely on no-nothings from the BBC for our image? As far as folk music is concerned, any influence for the good dissipated with the departure of Maddeau Stewart, Marie Slocum, Charles Parker, Philip Donellan and Bert Lloyd. There really are no grounds for blaming the demise on the image project by today's Beeb tossers; the – the fault lies squarely with the club scene itself.
The clubs deteriorated after the electric experiment petered out; when one of the leading 'electric folkies' stood up at the National Festival at Loughborough and said "folk music no longer has any attraction for me.... nowadays I'm only in it for the money". It went with the disappearance of the mini-choirs (who fought the valiant fight to make every folk-song sound the same). The club audience exodus came when it was possible to spend a night at a folk club without hearing a folk-song; when the term 'folk' became a cultural dustbin in which to dump virtually every other song form; – I know; I was part of that exodus.
If the BBC image of "woolly jumpers and 97 verse unaccompanied ballads" was the cause of the decline, it should be possible for you to point out the clubs responsible – perhaps you could name us a few names!

"Jim, why not start your own club then putting on just "trad folk", if your theory is correct it should be packed out? I'd gladly visit once in a while and I'd gladly eat my words above."
Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt-and forty years worth of pleasure (and enough good memories to last four lifetimes). For twenty years I was very much part of a club that pulled in audiences for the real thing (in all, it survived on the real thing for nearly forty years, right up to the death of MacColl). I am still motoring along on the petrol that those years put in my tank, and hope to continue to do so till Alzheimer's takes a firm grip.

"if I didn't call it a folk club, I could double the attendance."
Fine; if you are unhappy with the term, especially if it doesn't describe what goes on in your club, call it something else.

"Having said that I believe (some) trad song is worth preserving, but it will have to rub shoulders with songs that people know they want to listen to."
Why....? Because the 'folk' clubs today are attracting a miniscule fraction of the audiences of, say, for the super-groups and boy bands, why don't you throw your doors open to them? Absurd suggestion of course – you present the music you wish to because you think it important enough to do so. Folk music should be allowed to stand or fall on its own merits; there should be no necessity to re-invent the language to incorporate other music and please the crowds; folk music has never been a mass entertainment, and it probably never will be. We're in it for the music – not for the popularity (or the money).
I now live in Ireland where fifteen years ago folk music was being sneered at by the media as 'diddly-di music'. Nowadays, I can switch on the radio or television and hear good music at least a dozen times a week. This county alone has four venues dedicated mainly to traditional music. The town I live in hosts an annual week-long summer school dedicated to teaching traditional music; it has just had its (extremely generous) Arts Council grant increased by 10%, with an added bonus of €30,000 plus for the provision of teaching venues.
We have several musicians taking classes of dozens of youngsters throughout the year, ensuring that the music will be passed on at least to the next generation.
Ireland boasts at least two national, world-class archives of folk music and song, and numerous smaller ones scattered throughout the country. This time next year we hope to have a local one up and running here in West Clare.
None of this has been handed on a plate; it has been fought for my people like Seamus Delargy, Nicholas Carolan, Breandan Breathnach, Tom Munnelly and a handful of others who dedicated time and effort to preserving and passing on the music.
Things here are by no means perfect – but they are well on the way to being much better – and we've managed to 'pass it on' which is really what it's all about.
Gulliver - with respect - what goes on in the 'FOLK' clubs has everything to do with what the definition of 'FOLK'.
Richard, you are quite right of course; there are some FOLK clubs trying to present Folk song.
I take hope from your own personal repertoire list that there are still some people singing folk songs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Bert
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 10:17 PM

Thanks Gulliver this thread is to find out what is actually being sung. Discussions about 'What is folk' should be continued on this thread.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: reggie miles
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:31 PM

very good point Barbara.which is why Iam always very keen to perform at Maritime festivals like Scarborough [that will be a tenner Richard Grainger]because you can perform[what Icall Folk]to a non folk audience.

Captain, it's funny that you should mention this, because I find myself offering what I'm fairly certain is non-folk music to folk audiences in folk oriented settings and I'm surprised at what wonderful responses I've received.

I've not heard of most of songs that have been offered here and I know that few have heard what I'm playing.

Perhaps, what's really needed is a complete disassociation with labels like Folk, Acoustic, Singer/Songwriter, Trad, etc. Labels seem to do nothing more than divide us instead of bringing us closer together as folks who all appreciate fine music.

I know that some folks like their music sweet and others seem tickled if it's not. Some like it loud and then there are those who scoff and plug their ears at that idea. There's room enough for every avenue of musical expression. It's obvious that not everyone will enjoy it all but there are those that can find some merit in everything musical.

Musical expression, at its root, is not static. It is only ever changing, just as those who engage in the act of performing it are. Though we, who hold it in such great esteem, might wish it to remain in some permanent state forever unchanged, categorized and labeled, those yearnings are, in fact, completely at odds with the very nature of what musical expression is.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:09 PM

I am quite impressed with most of the songs mentioned here. It would be great to have
access to some of these traditional and beautiful songs via YouTube or other sources such as mp3's. Some of them I have not heard and would love to hear them.

I think the folkies in the UK seem to be way ahead of us in the States in terms of learning the traditional folk songs that endure and performing them for others.

If the Folk Clubs are keeping these songs alive, that's wonderful.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 04:49 PM

Dick, we run an 'acoustic' club as we want to encourage participation by those who wouldn't go to a 'folk' evening, but in fact most of what is performed is folk, and I think those looking for the singer-songwriter style would be sadly disappointed. It's been successful in drawing in a good number of people who found 'folk' much more enjoyable than they would have thought!
    very good point Barbara.which is why Iam always very keen to perform at Maritime festivals like Scarborough [that will be a tenner Richard Grainger]because you can perform[what Icall Folk]to a non folk audience.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 04:43 PM

I loved going to folk clubs in my teens and twenties (as a listener). These days I rarely go, and instead sing 2 or 3 times weekly at local open mikes. This is partly because there aren't that many in my locality, partly because I generally prefer the atmosphere at OMs (except when they're in noisy pubs). I'm always the only one doing any trad/unaccompanied singing, so maybe I feel I'm doing something unique there, and also taking tradition out into the wider world? and perhaps changing the stereotype? (or reinforcing it, who knows!!)

So, my lists:

(1) With the band at gigs:
Wind that shakes the barley
A nighean nan geug
I am stretched on your grave
Song to the siren (Tim Buckley)
Siul a ruin
Black is the colour
Phantasmagoria in two (Tim Buckley)
Lily (my own)
Ailein Duinn a ni's a naire

(2) On my own at open mikes:
Some of the above, plus -
She moved through the fair
In the broom
Oh, love it is a killing thing
My Laggan love
The forsaken maiden
Widdecombe Fair (Steve Knightley)
Bidh clann ulaidh
Ailein Duinn
Fraoch a ronaidh
The Easter tree (Dave Goulder)
As I roved out in the County Cavan
Crazy man Michael
Ailein Duinn

Rather a mixed bag! :)

Sue

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: mattkeen
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 03:18 PM

BB
We (my wife and I) live in Northampton but have a lot of friends in Devon due to the fact my wife trained at hospitals in Exeter.

I was in Okehampton(ish) over the weekend picking up an instrument from Brook Guitars.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: BB
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 03:11 PM

Matt, indeed it is us (or should that be 'it is we'? Neither sounds quite right!) I wonder where you're based that you saw us in two such different places? Glad you enjoyed them!

Jim, it's just a matter of finding the right clubs - there are still quite a few around which have mainly trad. songs. We include a few non-trad. in our sets, but they're ones which feel right alongside the trad.

Dick, we run an 'acoustic' club as we want to encourage participation by those who wouldn't go to a 'folk' evening, but in fact most of what is performed is folk, and I think those looking for the singer-songwriter style would be sadly disappointed. It's been successful in drawing in a good number of people who found 'folk' much more enjoyable than they would have thought!

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 02:16 PM

I find it interesting too.
Gulliver ,some people are including songs not sung in a folk club,including yourself.[with respect the thread is Folk Clubs].
Jim was commenting on what he perceives as the lack of folk music played in folk clubs.
just for the record,when I go to a pub,to hear music,Iwould not expect, what I would hope to hear in a folk club.
here are mine,
Adieu sweet Nancy.
Tam Linn.
Devonshire Farmers Daughter
Lovely Joan
Game Ofall Fours.
John Blunt.
Seeds OfLove
Hard Times of England.
Hansdome CabinBoy
Bushes and Briars
Factory Girl.
Rounding the Horn.
Bonny ship Diamond
Coasts Of Peru.
Barbara Allen.
Just as tide was flowing
Claudy Banks.
Streams Of Lovely Nancy.
Do me Amma.
Cunning Cobbler
Butter and Cheese and All.
Hopping Down in Kent.
While Gamekeepers lie sleeping.
Ball of Yarn.
Sailortown.
Banks of the Bann
Rambling Irishman.
False Knight onthe road.
My son David
Bold Fisherman.
A Fair maid walking in her garden.
A Roving on a Winters night.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 01:29 PM

Gulliver,

You are quire right, apologies, I couldn't contain myself from getting embroiled in the argument. Set lists posted above.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gulliver
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 01:19 PM

Jim and Dick,

the original poster requested two things (which a lot of people including myself find interesting):
1) list here what songs were sung at your last meeting.
2)If you consider yourself to be a folk singer, What songs are you currently singing?

I would respectfully suggest that there's no need to waste your time on this thread by re-starting the endless debate about folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 01:14 PM

Dick,

Because "acoustic" also has a common perception of what it is i.e. singer/ songwriter (mainly self penned) and not usually including "trad" or "trad sounding" stuff. It would be an even more inaccurate description.

Also the KFFC ....it's finger pickin' good!!!
(Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club) strap line wouldn't work!!!!!

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gulliver
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 01:07 PM

Again, not a folk club, but this is what was played at the Glenside session in Dublin last night. Some of the regular singers were at another do, so not many songs (some of the songs were new to me, don't know their names):

Maggie
Boys of Barr na Sráide (to shouts of "C'm'on the Kingdom!")
Tipperary song with names of places (to shouts of "Up Tipp!")
Spanish Lady (to shouts of "C'm'on the Dubs!")
The County Mayo
Tennessee Waltz
As I Roved Out
Song about the lakes on the Shannon
A song from Sligo
Jigs, reels and hornpipes too numerous to mention
One march--the Centenary March
Slow air--Éamon an Chnoic

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 12:54 PM

I agree with Jim Carroll,
If I pay to see Jazz,I dont expect Westlife.
for those who want a broader entertainment,why not call your club an Acoustic Music club.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jon Nix
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 12:03 PM

My own current range includes a lot of the usual stuff, but I list a few here that I never (or rarely) hear anyone else doing:

Where known, I give the (author) or (ex-artist) but otherwise may be trad or I just don't know.....

Farewell to Whisky
My Father (Judy Collins)
My Rainbow Race (Pete Seeger)
Carolina in My Mind (James Taylor)
Strong Women Rule Us All (ex-Dick Gaughan)
Consummation (Claire Hamill)
Too Late for Prayin (Gordon Lightfoot)
The Hiring Fair (Ralph McTell)
If It Be Your Will (Leonard Cohen)
Fotheringay (Sandy Denny)
Making Up The Miles (Kieran Halpin)
Anna My Love (Harvey Andrews)
The Lancashire Lads (ex-Mike Harding)

I also play a few self-penned ditties and, when my son is around, we duet on:
Crazy Man Michael (Fairport) and Ride On (Christy Moore) (my son who plays a cool counterpoint to my rhythm section & vocals) and
Samba Pa Ti (Carlos Santana) (my son plays lead - goes down a storm!)

Got some good suggestions from others above, thanks, I'll have to start digging around again. Always good to find new stuff.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:44 AM

Thanks! Attendance varies from around 20 to the mid 40s,nearly all singers or musicians. We're a weekly club and the only cost is a voluntary donation (probably £1)into the collecting box. When it's full, it's given to our hosts,the Wimborne British Legion, who have never charged us for the room.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:38 AM

Sounds like a great Club Terry. I'll bet you have a good attendance too?

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:39 AM

Yes,Richard,like you most of my repertoire is 'trad heavy.' We're not a particularly traddy club,though. Among the regulars there is one who only sings Woody Guthrie/Jimmy Rogers material, whilst there are several unaccompanied singers whose songs are usually 'modern' trad songs (if you know what I mean - the ones that sound as if they should have been written in the 19th century. We also have someone else who does music hall numbers accompanied on the ukele or banjo, an accordianist who frequently plays klezmer numbers, an Irish fiddler, two melodean players, a harmonica player who regards the Spinners/Fivepenny piece as the epitome of the folk revival, and two chaps who do mainly early Carthy (c 1966) stuff. We also have someone who does Les Barker poems. Most styles are acceptable - from skiffle (we get some of that) to Irish pubs songs. It works well!

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:30 AM

Something I wrote to a visitor to Sandy Bell's, Edinburgh in 2006. This is a mainly-instrumental session, not a folk club.

: I would be very happy if you could send me a list of some of
: the names that was played at sandy bells

Okay, I took in a notebook, put my ethnomusicologist's hat on and wrote
down everything we played this afternoon. Most led off by George, none
by me this time; I'll be starting more next week when George isn't there,
so I'll do another list then. Definite shortage of songs this time.

Four probably-Irish jigs we didn't know the names of (Anette knows the
third one, I'll try to ABC it)

2/4 marches
   Jean Mauchline (Bm)
   Ben Gullion (Am)

Strathspey versions of:
   The Road to the Isles (A)
   The Lea Rig (A)

Jigs
   Father O'Flynn (A)
   Rakes of Kildare (A dorian)
   Saddle the Pony (A)
   The Irish Washerwoman (G)

2/4 marches
   Mrs McDonald of Dunacht (D)
   Jim Christie of Wick (Bm)

Jigs
   The Ferry
   Three we didn't know the names of

2/4 marches
   McKenzie Highlanders
   The Poor Old Woman (or Glengarry's Farewell)
   72nd's Farewell to Aberdeen (or The Boy's Lament for his Dragon)
   The Hills of Perth (A mixolydian)

Jigs
   The Earl of Errol (C)
   McAlister's Jig (G)
   Boys of North Connel (D)
   Anderson's Delight (A)

Schottisches
   The Keel Row (A) - nb when I start this I do it in D
   Glasgow Highlanders
   Katie Bairdie (D) (or Kafoozalum - remember I've got the words
                                     if you're *really* curious)
   Orange and Blue (D) (or Brochan Lom)

2 strathspeys and 2 reels
   Banks of Spey (A dorian)
   Source of Spey
   Johnnie Lad (Em) (dance version of the song Johnnie Sangster)
   Inver Lasses

(interlude at this point for an extended discussion on attitudes
to vegetarianism around the EU)

Reels
   The Merry Blacksmith
   The Barrowburn Reel (D)
   Little Donald in the Pigpen (same as Little Donald's Wife? not sure)
   Lexie McAskill (A dorian)
   The Ale is Dear (Bm)

Waltzes
   Farquhar and Hetty's Waltz (D)
   Midnight on the Water (D)
(others of the same type sometimes put together: Margaret's Waltz,
The Stronsay Waltz, The Tennessee Waltz - if you get one you will
get one or two of the others but there's no telling which, and
Margaret's Waltz might be in A, D or G)

Reels
   The Burning of the Piper's Hut (Bm)
   a Tom Anderson tune we don't know the name of
   Far from Home (G)
   The New-Rigged Ship (A mixolydian/A dorian)

The Shetland Two-Step (G/C/D, I think)

Hakki's Polka

Duke of Perth reel set
   The Duke of Perth
   ?
   The Kettledrum
   J.B. Milne

Louis's Waltz (D)

4/4 marches
   Stella's Trip to Kamloops (A)
   The Braes of Dunvegan
   Memories of Father Angus McDonell (G)

Jigs
   I Am a Young Man that Lived with My Mother
   Kenmure's On and Awa
   Hot Punch
   The Rock and a Wee Pickle Tow

Jigs
   The Leg of a Duck (this has more names than any other tune I know)
   Scarce of Tatties
   The Banks of the Allan

Reels
   ? something about Prince Charlie (but *not* "Prince Charlie" itself)
   ?
   Staten Island
   The Breakdown (George only does the first 2 parts, there are three)

Polkas
   Egan's Polka
   Dennis Murphy's Polka
   Ger the Rigger

Retreat marches
   Pipe Major J.K. Cairns (hard to find so I've attached it)
   Torosay Castle
   Kirk Hill (or Kirk Brae? - I might have a copy of this somewhere)

Odessa Bulgar (Gm, there are several tunes of this name on the web)

2/4 marches
   Blackberry Bush
   The Brolam (A)
   Donald MacLeod's Reel (Am) (The Traditional Reel, The Nameless Reel)

Jigs
   Anne Fraser Mackenzie
   Charlie Hunter
   The Drunken Parson
   Biddy from Sligo

Jigs
   Rory MacLeod (A)
   Jig Runrig (G)
   Lark in the Morning (D)

Memories of Willie Snaith (G/C, not the keys it was written in)

Reels
   Jimmy Allan (G) (or The Reel of Tullochgorum, which has nothing to do with
                   the song/strathspey Tullochgorum, which we don't play much)
   Davy Davy Knick Knack (G)
   The Lass of Gowrie
   Aiken Drum (G)

Jigs
   The Lowland Lads Think They Are Fine
   Colonel Quigley

Marches and a reel
   The Battle of Waterloo (Am) (My Braw Highland Laddie, Mor Nighean a
                               Ghiberlain, Marion the Beggarman's Daughter)
   Flett from Flotta
   The Howl

Reels
   The High Road to Linton (A mixolydian/A major)
   The Fairy Dance (D)
   Loch Leven Castle (Am)
   ? (A)

Song: The Rocks of Merasheen (Em) (a Canadian woman called Susie sang this -
                                  she might still be around when you're here)

Two-step (6/8 march tunes)
   The 6:20 Two-step
   The Dancing Dustman

at which point the night session arrived, and two fiddlers (Jamie
and Kirsty) who hadn't played in the afternoon session before did
a linking set of very recent and rather obscure reels mostly by
Claire Mann that they mostly couldn't put names to.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:11 AM

Again, a lot of folk from Terry.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 08:16 AM

In the last month or so

January Man
Good Luck to the Farmer
Bold Princess Royal
Benjamin Bowmaneer
Rosemary's Sister
Hard on the beach oar
Time after Time (Cyndi Lauper, segued into it by accident! :-o)
Flower of Scotland
Miners Life (after being reminded by the thread here)
Down in your mines
Black Diamonds
Banks of sweet primroses
I dreamt I dwelt in Marble Halls
Tom Tough

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 06:52 AM

During the last week or so, I쳌fve heard these items done at various gatherings around the area at Mr Happy쳌fs Come All Ye in Chester on Wednesday, the Boars Head sesh in Middlewich on Saturday, a gig we did in Weston by Runcorn on Friday, the Raven FC last Sunday   & what쳌fs common & frequent at most other do쳌fs we attend


Battle of New Orleans

On the trail of the lonesome pine

Dainty Davy

Make me a pallet on your floor

Lizzie Lindsay

I wish I was back in Liverpool

Pleasant & Delightful

Reuben쳌fs train

He쳌fll have to go

Save the last dance for me

Bring it on home to me

Oh Susannah

Key to the highway

How long blues

St James infirmary

Good morning America [how are you?]

It takes a worried man

Jesse James

Donkey Riding

Old McDonald

Morningtown Ride

Eight more miles to Louisville

Fira Bhata

Ride on

The coming of the roads

Byker hill

Minnie the moocher

Lambton worm



Tunes:

Belfast Hornpipe

Jacky Tar

Davy Davy knick knack

Boolavogue

Fanny Power

Rose of Allendale

Believe me if all those revealing young charms

Melrose Abbey

Plaisir d쳌fAmour

Inisheer

Ashokan Farewell

Soldiers joy

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: mattkeen
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 06:27 AM

BB

Barbara - is that you and Tom? (if you see what I mean)

Had a really lovely evening listening to you 2 with films at Lympstone last year and in Northampton the year before.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:51 AM

As a regular at Wimborne Folk Club, here's what I've sung since June 2007:

William Taylor
Rounding the Horn
Constant Lovers
Sir Patrick Spens
Raggle Taggle Gypsies
Geordie
Jack Crawford
Death of Nelson
Seven Gypsies
A Place Called England
Tiree Love Song
Plains of Waterloo
Greenland Whale Fishery
Verdant Braes of Skreen
The Alabama
Captain Swing
Trees They do Grow High
Just as the Tide was Flowing
Limbo
John Barleycorn
Darcey Farrow
Johnny Todd (sic)
Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard
Empty Handed
Creeping Jane
Broomfield Wager
Tom the Barber
Sweet England
Richie Storey
Lady came from Baltimore
Once I'd a Sweetheart
Pretty Saro
Somewhere in America
Out from St Leonards
Ratcliffe Highway
Clyde Water
Escape of Old John Webb
Bitter Withy
Banks of the River Grand
Eniskillen Dragoon
Blantyre Explosion
Wark of the Weavers
Last of the Great Whales
Mary and the Soldier
Sovay
Fair Flower of Northumberland
Bogie's Bonny Belle
Collier Laddie
Last of England
Roving Ploughboy
Foggy Dew
Boots of Spanish Leather
Willie Moore
Red and Gold
Lord Bateman
Darewell my Dearest Dear
Leader of the Band
Keel Row
Curragh of Kildare
Joseph Baker
All Round my Hat
Oh No John

I've song a few of the above twice during this period.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Brendy
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:19 AM

I count 21 Folk songs, 12 'Neo Folk' songs, to use your phrase Richard (although I cant help thinking of 'The Matrix' when I see it..;-)....). I also count, 9 of what I will term 'Old Classics'.

That's not my whole repertoire; that's just what I have selected for this tour, and they are all pub gigs I'm doing. I just make the place 'Folk Clubby' myself by use of the material, if I think the crowd will handle it.
Folk Clubs generally speaking wont have you playing 3 X 45min sets, anyway.

Considering I only need 33 songs in any one night, I don't have to touch any of that oul Hank Williams or Bob Dylan nonsense.

B.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 04:52 AM

Come on Jim, Brendy's list had a reasonable number of trads - and although people usually pay me to shut up rather than sing, my list above is quite trad-heavy.

Also interesting to see Gene Burton's experience with unaccompanied song.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 03:22 AM

"I wonder when people will come to terms with the fact that this is why club audiences have shrunk to what they have"

.....errrr. no, this is plainly wrong (with the folk club I am involved with anyway), if I didn't call it a folk club, I could double the attendance. It is the image (being perpetuated by the BBC at the moment) of fingers in ears, woolly jumpers and 97 verse unaccompanied ballads that puts people off). Having said that I believe (some) trad song is worth preserving, but it will have to rub shoulders with songs that people know they want to listen to.

Jim, why not start your own club then putting on just "trad folk", if your theory is correct it should be packed out? I'd gladly visit once in a while and I'd gladly eat my words above.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 03:07 AM

Sorry,
If I go to a folk club I expect a night of folk songs - nothing to do with misery or manners, just stating the obvious - which appears to have been either missed or ignored here.
If I turned up at a chamber concert and was given a selection of songs from the shows, as much as I might enjoy the latter, but I still would not have been ven what I paid for.
I wonder when people will come to terms with the fact that this is why club audiences have shrunk to what they have.
I'll just sit back and wair for the howls of 'folk police' now (an maybe listen to a couple of Jeannie Robertson recordings)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,White Rabbit
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 03:49 PM

This thread has convinced me that I have not missed much.

Misery has no manners!

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 03:41 PM

For once!


(I'll get me coat...)

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 03:41 PM

Jim,

So you've heard all of the songs and artists on this thread have you? Introduce yourself next time you see us won't you........

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 03:24 PM

An exceptionally illuminating and helpful contribution!

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 02:33 PM

Have been out of the club scene for some time. This thread has convinced me that I have not missed much.
Jim Crroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Bert
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 01:34 PM

I was thinking Plus because it would then include folk and traditional.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 01:29 PM

Or Folk Minus? After all, it is without its roots.

"Contemporary folk"? or "Modern folk"?

I still like "neofolk" as the best coinage. It combines the senses of modernity and proximity.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Bert
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 01:04 PM

Borrowing from the sqare dancing world, how about "Folk Plus".

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Howard Kaplan
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 11:23 AM

I realize that "what is a folk club?" might be as contentious as "what is a folk song?". Nonetheless, I offer a little evidence from this side of the Atlantic. In Chicago, radio station WFMT's Midnight Special hosts live two-hour folk concerts on many Saturday nights, broadcasting their second hours and posting the playlists. Although some concerts feature singer-songwriters who perform (almost) entirely their own works, here are two recent examples of people who do sing more than a smidgen of traditional or other songwriters' work:

November 17, 2007
STEVE GILLETTE & CINDY MANGSEN
   1. Grapes on the Vine (Steve Gillette/Charles John Quarto)
   2. Sunrise (Cindy Mangsen)
   3. Odd Man Out (Lou & Peter Berryman)
   4. Irish tune medley (trad)
   5. When the First Leaves Fall (Steve Gillette)
   6. Rudy's Big Adventure (Cindy Mangsen)
   7. Hurricane (Steve Gillette)
   8. Corinne (trad)
   9. Homelessness (Lou & Peter Berryman)
10. Rocky Road (Steve Gillette Dennis Dougherty David Kleiner)
11. La Guitarra (Steve Gillette/Frederico Garcia Lorca)
12. Song for Gamble (Steve Gillette/Charles John Quarto)
13. The Old Trail (Steve Gillette/Charles John Quarto)

January 26, 2008
DEBRA COWAN
   1. Cole Younger (trad)
   2. Isabella Gunn (Eileen McGann)
   3. Walloping Window Blind (trad/Charles Carroll Leena Bourne Fish, PD)
   4. Star in the East (Brightest and Best) (trad)
   5. My Boy Jack (Peter Bellamy / Rudyard Kipling) /
      The Widowmaker (John Connolly)
   6. Dreadnaught Mutiny (Jerry Bryant)
   7. Carpal Tunnel (John O'Connor)
   8. Has He Got a Friend for Me (Richard Thompson)
   9. The Rainbow (trad)
10. Medicine Wheel (Kate Wolf)
11. Darkest Hour (Carter Stanley)

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: BB
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 11:02 AM

We're from the South West of England, and have done couple of gigs in the last week in the South East and South. For those who are interested, we performed the following:

The Sound of Singing (Eric Bogle)
Bridgwater Fair (trad.)
Egloshayle Ringers (trad.)
Lowlands of Holland (trad.)
The Keenly Lode (trad.)
Cottage Well-Thatched with Straw (trad.)
Louisa's Journey (Rachelle Jeffs)
Soap, Starch & Candles (trad.)
In Friendship's Name (trad. adapt. Tom Brown)
Lavender Trousers (trad.)
Mortal Unlucky Ol' Chap (trad.)
The Farmer & his Wife (trad.)
The Wives of St. Ives (trad.)
Bampton Fair (Paul Wilson)
The Young Girl Cut Down in her Prime (trad.)
Down in the Diving Bell (trad.)
The Tide of Change (Hilary Bix)
When Mother & Me Joined In (A.J. Coles)
Poison Beer (trad.)
The Little Gipsy Girl (trad.)
Tarry Trousers (trad.)
The Herring (trad.)
Flying Cloud (trad./Mick Slocum)
The Tithe Pig (trad.)
Rusty Ol' Knife (trad.)
Sir Francis Drake (trad.)
The Bold Privateer (trad.)
Cluster of Nuts (trad.)
Barbara Allen (trad.)
Nancy (trad.)
Lamorna (trad.)
Coming-In Song (Barrie Temple)

Had great nights in both clubs, and got people singing which doesn't happen everywhere, but is what we love!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 08:15 AM

Well Wendy did most (but not all) of the singing actually! Set list from The White Hart Folk Club Mickleby 02/02/08 and The Charles Bathurst Inn, Arkengarthdale (a 60th Birthday Party...so Folk "Lite") on 03/02/08

Mickleby FC
Mining for Gold                (Canadian Trad)
Cotton Mill Girls        (Hedy West)
Fish Guttin' Lassie        (I. Sinclair)
Southern Girl's Reply        (Anon, American)
The Blacksmith                (English Trad)
Banjo Medley (Pretty Polly, Cluck Old Hen…American trad)
John Anderson my Jo        (R. Burns)
Skipio                  (W. Arrowsmith)                        
Archie & Daisy               (W. Arrowsmith)        
5th String Jealousy    (P.Arrowsmith)                
Loch Tay Boat Song        (Scottish Trad, Lady Nairn)
Jeely Piece Song        (Adam McNaughton)        
The Leaving                (Dave Gibb)        
The Ribbon               (W.Arrowsmith)
Holy Ground                (Steve Bailey)        
Counting Dolphins        (W. Arrowsmith)
The Visitor               (W. Arrowsmith)
Are We Nearly There Yet?(W. Arrowsmith)

CB Inn
Cotton Mill Girls        (Hedy West)        
Skipio                        (W. Arrowsmith)        
Archie & Daisy                (W. Arrowsmith)
Daddies Real Proud      (P. Arrowsmith)
The Blacksmith                (trad)
Jeely Piece Song        (Adam McNaughton)
Banjo Medley (a few Trad American Tunes)   
Counting Dolphins        (W. Arrowsmith)
Holy Ground                (Steve Bailey)
5th String Jealousy        (P. Arrowsmith)
The Visitor               (W. Arrowsmith)
Whiskey In The Jar      (Irish Trad)

Arrangements vary from unaccompanied to banjo & guitar, banjola & whistle ....and most permutations of these instruments and a bit of mandolin.

....and Wendy will be doing a completely different set of almost exclusively Trad English & Scottish songs next weekend ( inc. Bonnie Light Horseman, The Shearing, Whitby Lad etc) at The Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club Winter Warmer Weekend with stunning guitarist and singer Ian McKone and a similar mix to above with me for her other set.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:12 AM

Well, to pick another pedantry, I'm not a folk singer (close to being what most call a "source" singer) but I am close-ish to being a folksong singer (ie someone learning folksongs from recordings and books)

What I have learned most recently would be

The Nutting Girl (still working on it)
Knight William
Avram Bailey (one of the variants of "the Wild Boar")
The Grey Cock
Sam Hall
The Princess Alice (Rickard)
Gentlemen of High Renown
Admiral Benbow
Famous Flower of Serving Men (I cut it down to 19 verses without losing ALL the story!)
O'er the Hills and Far away
The Miner's lifeguard (changed my mind and stopped doing it)
Love Has no Pride
The Gairdener Child

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: reggie miles
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 10:56 PM

Hmmm, after seeing the selections presented here thus far and after having attended my first folk song weekend sponsored by the Seattle Folklore Society, Rainy Camp, and though I even offer a description of what I play as folk/blues, I'm not altogether certain that what I represent is anywhere near what anyone who is really into folk music might be able to agree is in fact folk music (The traditional and typically anonymous music that is an expression of the life of people in a community. {according to my little online dictionary})

I am about as anonymous as anyone could hope to be in this pursuit given that I've been residing just beyond the event horizon of the known universe here in the foo-thills of the upper left corner of the country. I'm forever having folks tell me where to go. I presume they mean so that I can get known for something or be somebody but I may have that all wrong.

I certainly write songs that express the life of people in my community but don't actively try to seek out past songs that may have been sung by some former players that could have been living here many years ago. I'm thinking that those long ago folks were not going too far out of their way to seek out past songs either but merely singing the songs of their day just as I am doing today.

Some of what I write I believe is closer to what folk enthusiasts might enjoy than the older music I've explored. I play traditional folk instruments and even play them using traditional approaches. I also play my own interpretations of older obscure vaguely folkish and definitely blues material but I'm not a member of a folk club or society and I wonder if they would even have me as a member given that I'm such a fringe element.

Fringe-Folk might be a proper classification. It's difficult to classify what it is that I do as an entertainer clearly into a neat genre that everyone can understand. I guess, perhaps, somewhere down the road, future folks seeking past songs about this area might look at my material and classify me as a folksinger. So maybe I'm a present day folksinger/songwriter/storyteller who uses tradtional musical tools and applies them to contemporary circumstances to create relevant messages. Hmmm, that doesn't exactly roll off the tongue very easily. It's hard to put it into a one or two word soundbite. Contemporary Folk doesn't seem to fit.

I've been referred to as a blues man, but after attending a supposed blues jam the other night, which was comprised of a whole lot of guys noodling electric guitars with amplifiers cranked at volumes that began to disturb my ears, it suddenly began to dawn on me that that the definition of what blues music is could certainly be debated. It actually felt more like what I'd term as a Blues Rock jam. (Sooooo many tangents!)

I've also noticed that when I try to find a genre to pigeon hole my music in, when they've required such at various online sites, it's a real challenge. It's a hoot looking at all of the many genres that have become officially sanctioned and recognized. Trip Hop? Who makes this stuff up? I must be gettin' old.

Here's a couple o' handsful of mine and their songs that I enjoy offering when I'm invited to play. Lately, I've had as much, if not more, fun playing mine but it usually depends upon the need of the moment.

These are my songs:
Sometimes You Get To Bite That Bear
She's Trouble
Homeless Broke and Hungry
Handsful O' Blues
Another Lover
These Old Shoes
War Mongerin' Man
Chasin' The American Dream
The Devil
Katrina Blues
You Can Be A Street Musician
I'll Do Anything To Make A Buck
A Dilly Of A Tale
Wanted Used Car
Grossosity!
Duct and Cover
The Cute Little Girl With The Shimmy In Her Pants
Blues In My Lap
F-R-E-E
Blue Collar Blues
65 Newport Ragtop Blues
You're Always Lookin' T' Upgrade
The Birds and The Bees
I'm Old
It's Not The Size Of Your Slide. It's The Slide Of Your Size.
Stuck In Gridlock Again
Drunk
Naturally Sweet
Only Memories Remain
Shelter From The Rain
Up There
Mourning Blues
Ace In The Hole

These are their songs:
The Man With The Weird Beard (Arthur Godfrey)
The Bearded Lady
Some Little Bug (Bert Williams)
Death Where Is Thy Sting? (Bert Williams)
Hundred Dollar Women (OneMan Johnson)
Every Little Which Away (OneMan Johnson)
Stray Dog Blues (OneMan Johnson)
51 Highway Blues (Big Joe Williams)
What Can You Do?(OneMan Johnson)
Broke Down Engine (Willie McTell)
Dead Presidents (Willie Dixon)
Last Dime Blues (Willie McTell)
Goin' T' Brownsville (Furry Lewis)
Pink Cadillac (Rusty Draper)
Back Door Man (Willie Dixon)
Baby Pleasae Don't Go (Big Joe Williams)
What Got Wrong? (OneMan Johnson)
Motherless Children (Willie McTell)
Evil Devil Woman Blues (Joe McCoy)
No Hands Have Touched It But Mine
The Ballad Of AlFerd Packer (Phil Ochs)
Some Folks (OneMan Johnson)
Flying Saucers
Suppertime (OneMan Johnson)
Kentucky Means Paradise (The Green River Boys)

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Brendy
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 06:52 PM

I have been for the past year, but this year myself and Mark Gregory, a fiddle player of the East Clare style, and a gifted Delta Blues head will do a few gigs in Norway & Denmark over the summer here.
He's been getting his own thing together over the past year, and I was run off my feet last year, so there just wasn't time

I'm doing a residency in a small pub here in S. Denmark every night from Easter to late September...., but I'll escape every once in a while (May & July) to play the gigs with Mark, and leave my cardboard cut-out to cover for me for a week or 3.

I'll move back over to Donegal in Sept for the autumn/winter,and come back out her again in Feb.

The year will fly...

B.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gulliver
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 06:47 PM

I live in Dublin, Ireland. The Liberties is an old part of the city.

Don

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 06:42 PM

LOL...well done, lad! I was wondering how you would come back. Are you doing mostly solo stuff?

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Brendy
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 06:18 PM

... I nip down to Germany every once in a while...

That's the less part of all the parts of which Scandinavia has the most of..., partwise...

B.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Brendy
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 06:09 PM

Oh now, Mick..., in this game it's all dodging & weaving... ;-)

On a purely existential level however, I could ask where does one really live?
... and what is work... does it begin at 9, does it end at 5?

As far as Scandinavia is concerned, though, a flight from Copenhagen to Oslo takes 45 mins; to Stockholm, an hour. Nowhere is too far away, and air-fares are very cheap: you would spend more going across town in a taxi...

I am blessed, and eternally grateful, however to those venue owners and bar managers who have become my very good friends over the years, and they all are my de facto family over here.

Every time I play in these places it is like going home.

And for an guy who spends quite a lot of his time on the road, home generally is where the heart is.

... and it's in Scandinavia.... ;-)

Fair play to you Mick...

B.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 05:57 PM

Living ...for the most part? Or is it working... for the most part? Or is it in Scandinavia..... for the most part?

Mick

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Brendy
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 05:55 PM

I'm Irish, living and working in Scandinavia (...for the most part)

B.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: stallion
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 05:42 PM

Ah Heather,
Peter, Ron & Martin
Two Black Sheep & a Stallion

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 05:40 PM

Guest/Heather, Gold Street Music is in the US, in the capital city of Juneau, Alaska.

I am a co-founder of the club.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,heather
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 05:16 PM

Would you say 'who you are and where you come' from when putting up the list?
I need the context. ta Heather

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gulliver
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 04:54 PM

OK, it's not a folk club per se, but we have at least six "resident" singers and on average about eight floor singers at our Sunday afternoon session in the Liberties. All kinds of stuff gets done, depending on who turns up (last week we had a ton of Italian songs from visiting rugby fans), but the following have been cropping up on a regular basis over the past few months:

Ain't misbehavin' (Fats Waller)
All for me grog
Around the World (?)
As I roved out (Planxty version)
Bella Ciao or another Italian song
Country Roads or another John Denver song
Dublin in the Rare Old Times (Pete St. John)
Dicey Riley or I'll tell me ma
Dublin Ramble (Leo Maguire?)
Easy and slow
Eileen Oge (Percy French)
The finding of Moses (Zozimus)
Grace (Pete St. John)
Hand me down me bible (?)
High Noon (?)
Irish Molly (Cohen?)
Joe Hill (?)
Maggie (O'Casey version)
Maids when you're young
The Moonshiner (Delia Murphy?)
Morningtown Ride (Malvina Reynolds)
Night visiting song
Old Triangle (Brendan Behan)
Only our rivers run free (McConnell?)
Óró 'sé do bheatha abhaile (Pádraig Pearse)
Punch and Judy Man (Connell)
Raglan Road (Patrick Kavanagh)
Schooldays Over (Ewan McColl)
She likes a little bit in the morning
Some/any song about whiskey
Spancil Hill
Spanish Lady
Sullivan's John (Pecker Dunne)
The Galtee Mountain Boys or Girls of Mayo
Town I loved so well (Phil Coulter)
When You're Smiling
Wild Colonial Boy
Will You Go Lassie Go (McPeake family)
You Are My Sunshine or similar old-time

Don

ps, listening to great music on RTE tonight: South Wind, and then Ceilidh Night (senior ceilidh band competition from last year)

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,aeola2
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 04:30 PM

Interesting to see the range & diversity of songs being sung in folk clubs. Personally I don't care what songs are sung I just love hearing everyone enjoying themselves. Isn't that what it's all about? Of course there will be the occasional songs highlighting the vagaries of the '' establishment'' or drawing attention to the harsh ''realities of life'' which also have their place and keep our feet on the ground!!

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: stallion
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 04:17 PM

Ok this is the stuff we have being doing over the last year

Come write me down
Grey Funnel Line
Over the Hills and Far Away
Prospect Providence
Bring us a barrel
Home Boys Home
Bulgine Run
Alabama
Yangtse River Shanty
Hard on the Beech Oar
Spanish Ladies
My Emma
Three Score and Ten
Stormy Weather
Rose of Allandale
Rose of York
Sailor Lad
Lowlands
The Crawl
Mingulay Boat Song
Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy
Follow me 'ome
Strike the Bell Landlord
When Morning Stands on Tiptoe
Fathom the Bowl
Lincolnshire Poacher
Landlord Fill the Flowing Bowl
Let the Toast Pass
Bang upon the Big Drum
Geordy Thompson
Now that the Fishing has Ended
I'm A Rover
Goodbye Fare Thee Well
Dogger Bank
Leaving Shanty
Parting Glass
Johnny Come Down to Hilo
I Can Hew
Three Foot Seam
Tuppence on the Rope
Gloucester Wassail
Sussex Carole
Holmfirth Anthem
Good Ale
Race of Long Ago
Shanandoah
Old Peculiar
Johnny I hardly knew yer
The Chesepeake and the Shannon
How Stands the Glass Around
Streams of Lovely Nancy
Scarborough Fishermen
One More day
No you wont get me down in your mine
Lyke Wake Dirge
Ellis Island
When All Men Sing
The Leaf Song
I Like to Rise
Over the Hills and Far Away
All Amongst the Barley
Drink Old England Dry
green grows the laurel
Ratcliffe Highway

Peter

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 03:45 PM

As you can see from this list of this month's concert at Gold Street Music, we book performers, per se, not by genre. So far, in our third season, it's been very successful and we enjoy it a lot. Many of our performers do folk or folkie numbers, maybe that's why we consider ourselves a folk club, but I think it's mostly because we're serving our community and our community is diverse.

These are all local musicians and the caliber of quality is very high.

* Six original novelty songs (i.e. There's a Layer of Ice on the Lake Tonight) by a person, Jeff Brown, with a guitar who generally does political songs and/or children's parties.

* 6 instrumentals by a 4-piece fiddle, bass, guitar and mando group, 'College Bound', none of whom are over 16: . Tunes like Boston Boy, Opus 38, Whiskey Before Breakfast, Cherry Tree, Grumbling and Growling, One song, Go On Home.

* Michael Truax teaser for an upcoming Michael Smith show: I Dig Sex (title?)

* A duo (Cheryl Cook and Kathy Hocker) doing Townes Van Zandt, Leonard Cohen, Cyndy Kallet, Cheryl Wheeler and Joni Mitchell,

* A jazz pianist (Robert Cohen) doing What's This Thing Called Love, The Lord is Listenin' to Ya, Hallelujah, Eastside Blues and a New Orleans piece by 'Long Hair'.

6 songs by a singer/songwriter demonstrating various songs done to a different rhythm, such as Can This Circle be Unbroken done in a minor key and to a reggae beat. The artist, John Palmes, travels a great deal to make music on different continents.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Brendy
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 03:26 PM

Well, I hope I'll not disappoint if you ever do, Nigel...

B.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 02:58 PM

I like some of each, Richard: folk and "folk" do for me, though I often call the folk (rather than the "folk") "traditional", seeing as the quotation marks are silent when said in a Black Country accent.

Cheers

Nigel

PS I'm developing a strangely powerful yearning to see Brendy play live...

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Brendy
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 02:56 PM

Thanks Richard. It mixes well most of the time.

I will add however that I know which of those above songs are Folk and those which are not, so I'm not classifying my set-list as a 'Folk Set'..., even though I could play a folk set from the selection.

3 X 45 mins works out at roughly 11 songs per set; that's 33 songs in a night. There's 42 songs in the list above, so I can heavily weight a gig one way or another depending on which 33 I choose in any given night.

It's always handy to have a few 'musical bananas' to throw at them, just to keep them with the programme...

... what a tangled web we weave...

B.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,dulcimerjohn
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 02:55 PM

I'm from Va in the states and sometimes play out as 'dulcimerjohn'. I play a mix of Va trad stuff as well as English/euro folk as well as an unexpected thing occasionally..next gig..hmmm
John Browns Dream(Trad)
Movin on (..down the river-Trad)
Old Bangum(Trad-Ritchie)
Fingertips (Strawbs)
Is it today? (Strawbs)
Ground Hog(Trad)
1st of Arkansas(Trad)
Wintergrace(Trad-Ritchie)
Still I'm sad(Yardbirds)
Russian Bear(Sabjilar)
No Quarter(Led Zeppelin)
Birdsong/Darkstar(Grateful Dead)
Matty Groves(Fairport Convention)

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 02:29 PM

Sounds a nice selection Brendy.

Bert- I suggested that a while back. I suggested "New-folk" "nu-folk" and "neofolk" but the horse defintioners were notsatisfied. They insisted that what they dod was "folk" and that what we 1954 definitioners did was "traditional". Why should we vacate the term coined for us? When did white become grey?

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Brendy
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 12:48 PM

... knew I left out something...:

Down In The City (Scullion)
Eyelids Into Snow (Scullion)

B.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Brendy
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 12:47 PM

This is what I'm taking to the Frozen North next week
3 X 45min sets:

As I roved out (Christy)
The Blacksmith
The Jolly Beggar
Three Drunken Maidens
The Well Below The Valley
Trip to Jerusalem
The Rocky Road To Dublin
Follow me up to Carlow
Sally McLennane (Shane McGowan)
Tippin' it up to Nancy
Johnny Jump-up
The Wild Rover (Nice'n Slow)
Molly Malone
Whiskey in the Jar (Ragtime Version)
Black Velvet Band
Bonny Lass of Fife
The Mermaid
Go Move Shift (Ewan McColl)
Fiddler's Green
Sam Hall
The Lakes of Pontchartrain
I Don't Want To Know About Evil (John Martyn)
Almost ev'ry circumstance (Colm Sands)
Arthur McBride
Carrickfergus
Clare to Here (Ralph McTell)
As I roved out (Andy)
Crusader (Mick Hanly)
Nothing but the same old story (Paul Brady)
Black is the Colour
Then we take Berlin (L. Cohen)
Whiter shade of Pale (Procul Harum)
Light My Fire (Jim Morrisson)
You win again (H. Williams)
Don't think twice (Bob Dylan)
If You could read my mind (Gordon Lightfoot)
May you never (John Martyn)
Ballad of John & Yoko (Lennon/McCartney)
Under The Boardwalk (The Drifters??)
Celebrate (An Emotional Fish)

B.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gene Burton
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 12:05 PM

"I am finding these song lists very interesting."

Me too. Let's have more of them, and less bitchin'.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Bert
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 11:56 AM

Well Shimrod, I guess that you didn't read my post on the other thread.

What I suggested was that we let the pedants have their definition,
and that we find our own name for what we are really doing in the folk world. Then the dissent can go away and we can do our thing and they can do theirs.

Having said that, I am finding these song lists very interesting.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 11:12 AM

Never thought of that, Stallion, but I suppose it's a possibility!

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: stallion
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 10:54 AM

Or it could be an unsubtle way to gauge how much PRS can charge folk clubs for copy write material content! Isn't this mischievous!
Peter

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 08:59 AM

Hi Richard,

The thing is, do we need to know the answers to your two questions?

With respect, I think that they are somewhat peripheral to what is really going on here. Thread, after thread, after thread has asked the same question over and over again, ad nauseum, ie. "what is a folk song?" And a perfectly good answer has been provided many, many, many times. It's just that some people don't want this answer - they want another answer. They think that if they keep asking the same question, someone will eventually 'crack' and give them an answer closer to the one that they want to hear. The only reasonable response to such a tactic is to keep giving them a consistent answer - let's see who cracks first!

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 06:00 AM

Well, yes, Shimrod, I agree, but it would still be interesting to know what is being sung, for: -

1. It might give us insight into what horse definitioners actually want to sing and have thought of as "folk"; and

2. It might (or it might not) give the lie to those who say that traditional songs (by which they mean folksongs, albeit folk songs of all cultures without differentiation, as you and I appreciate) are not sung, are not popular, and are not relevant (which does make me wonder why they want to call what they sing "folk").

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 05:32 AM

I'm a bit suspicious of the motives behind this thread. Or, to put it another way, I don't subscribe to the theory (notion?) that 'truth' can be uncovered via a popularity contest.

'Guest, Bert' describes this thread as, "An offshoot from the "What is a folksong" thread." This implies that if we can discover what the 'majority' think of as a 'folk song' then we will be closer to a 'true' definition of the term 'folk song'. I submit that this is a false assumption. It is also a meaningless exercise because we already have a workable definition of the term 'folk song' - it's just not a very popular one - mainly because it doesn't conform to many people's wishes and prejudices.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 07:20 PM

SilverSmith at Maidenhead on Thursday :-
As I Roved Out (Ex Planxty)
A Roving on a Winters Night Ex Doc Watson)
Annie Munro (Jez Lowe)
The House Carpenter (trad American- NO Supernatural)
Bangum (Trad American- NO Supernatural)
Lakes Of Ponchartrain
Arthur McBride (Irish)
La Malaguena (Mexican)
Spanish Ladies Medley (Mostly Swarbrick Carthy)
Little Beggarman (Irish)
Barbara Allen (Trad American)
Jackaroe (American Jacky Munroe !)
Come All Ye fair and Tender Maidens
Devils Nine Questions
Devil and the Farmers Wife
Black Jack Davey
Coshieville(Scottish)
The Parting Glass
Roseville fair (Bill Staines)

And the prevalence of American (Particularly Virginian orientated) is because my Vocalist partner is from Richmond VA !

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Rapunzel
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 06:47 PM

This week I sang Earl Richard (unaccompanied, traditional); Marco Polo (with guitar, by Jane Siberry); and Why Walk When You Can Fly (unaccompanied, by Mary Chapin Carpenter). A reasonable mix I thought.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,heather
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 05:11 PM

From Glynneath Acoustic Group on an evening themed 'Song of the Earth/Alexander Cordell' last Friday in the Valley Folk Club Pontardawe Wales.Some of these are old, some newer, some learned and some homemade.

Song of the Earth read extract
Walking to Merthyr Tydfil in the moonlight long ago
Walking Boss
Suo Gan
The Gates of Cardiff Gaol
Bells of Rhymney
Farmer's Boy
Here is Love and 1904 Revival description
Nine Pound Hammer
Song of the earth extract
Tareni Flood
Last train from Poor Valley
Dark as a Dungeon
Keep that wheel a turning
Aberdulais
Extarct from Song of the Earth
Hard Times
Green green Grass of Home
The town of Aberdare
Extract from Story from Sharie's Home
Chattanooga Choo Choo
Cotton Mill Colic
The Ballad of Ben Russ
Roll down the line
Skewen Main
Song of the Deportees
A working man I am
Calon La

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gene Burton
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 04:27 PM

At my last paid gig (at the Red Lion FC, Birmingham a couple of weeks ago, supporting Ashley Hutchings and co), I played 13 songs in all. 9 of my own, all with guitar. One Trad with guitar (Dink's Song). Two Trad unaccompanied (Black Waterside and Queen of Hearts) and, er, Rock of Ages (with silly fast bluegrass-ish guitar accompaniment). I have been described by some (mostly by my younger listeners, interestingly) as a folksinger.

Last night I went to a young person's open mic night in Brum town centre, did 4 songs...2 of my own, a Dylan (Tangled Up in Blue), and Sally Free and Easy (unaccompanied). Unaccompanied English folk songs generally go down really well at these kind of nights...people really seem to respond to the power of the unadorned human voice, and by the melodic strengths of the songs (though it does peeve me a little that so many people unfamiliar with the tradition tend to assume they're all Irish...but that's probably a whole new thread topic!)

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Saro
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 03:44 PM

Among the songs sung last night were
Banks of Sweet Primroses (trad)
Amazing Grace
Pleasant and Delightful (trad)
a French traditional song about military service (trad)
Bay of Fundy (Bok)
The Leaves in the Woodland (Bellamy)
Low Down in the Broom (trad)
a poem by Thomas Hardy
Ae Fond Kiss (Burns)
The Unquiet grave (trad)
Tall Ships (knightley)
Lavender's Blue

plus others the names of which I don't know (or memory fails me!). Still, it is a start...
Saro

Subject: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Bert
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 03:27 PM

An offshoot from the "What is a folksong" thread.

Let's start with - What are us folkies actually singing?

So if you run or are a member of a folk club, please take the time to list here what songs were sung at your last meeting.

OR - If you consider yourself to be a folk singer, What songs are you currently singing?

Then we'll at least know what the general consensus is regarding what we consder to be folk songs.