Folk clubs - what is being sung

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Brendy
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:19 AM

I count 21 Folk songs, 12 'Neo Folk' songs, to use your phrase Richard (although I cant help thinking of 'The Matrix' when I see it..;-)....). I also count, 9 of what I will term 'Old Classics'.

That's not my whole repertoire; that's just what I have selected for this tour, and they are all pub gigs I'm doing. I just make the place 'Folk Clubby' myself by use of the material, if I think the crowd will handle it.
Folk Clubs generally speaking wont have you playing 3 X 45min sets, anyway.

Considering I only need 33 songs in any one night, I don't have to touch any of that oul Hank Williams or Bob Dylan nonsense.

B.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:51 AM

As a regular at Wimborne Folk Club, here's what I've sung since June 2007:

William Taylor
Rounding the Horn
Constant Lovers
Sir Patrick Spens
Raggle Taggle Gypsies
Geordie
Jack Crawford
Death of Nelson
Seven Gypsies
A Place Called England
Tiree Love Song
Plains of Waterloo
Greenland Whale Fishery
Verdant Braes of Skreen
The Alabama
Captain Swing
Trees They do Grow High
Just as the Tide was Flowing
Limbo
John Barleycorn
Darcey Farrow
Johnny Todd (sic)
Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard
Empty Handed
Creeping Jane
Broomfield Wager
Tom the Barber
Sweet England
Richie Storey
Lady came from Baltimore
Once I'd a Sweetheart
Pretty Saro
Somewhere in America
Out from St Leonards
Ratcliffe Highway
Clyde Water
Escape of Old John Webb
Bitter Withy
Banks of the River Grand
Eniskillen Dragoon
Blantyre Explosion
Wark of the Weavers
Last of the Great Whales
Mary and the Soldier
Sovay
Fair Flower of Northumberland
Bogie's Bonny Belle
Collier Laddie
Last of England
Roving Ploughboy
Foggy Dew
Boots of Spanish Leather
Willie Moore
Red and Gold
Lord Bateman
Darewell my Dearest Dear
Leader of the Band
Keel Row
Curragh of Kildare
Joseph Baker
All Round my Hat
Oh No John

I've song a few of the above twice during this period.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: mattkeen
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 06:27 AM

BB

Barbara - is that you and Tom? (if you see what I mean)

Had a really lovely evening listening to you 2 with films at Lympstone last year and in Northampton the year before.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 06:52 AM

During the last week or so, I쳌fve heard these items done at various gatherings around the area at Mr Happy쳌fs Come All Ye in Chester on Wednesday, the Boars Head sesh in Middlewich on Saturday, a gig we did in Weston by Runcorn on Friday, the Raven FC last Sunday   & what쳌fs common & frequent at most other do쳌fs we attend


Battle of New Orleans

On the trail of the lonesome pine

Dainty Davy

Make me a pallet on your floor

Lizzie Lindsay

I wish I was back in Liverpool

Pleasant & Delightful

Reuben쳌fs train

He쳌fll have to go

Save the last dance for me

Bring it on home to me

Oh Susannah

Key to the highway

How long blues

St James infirmary

Good morning America [how are you?]

It takes a worried man

Jesse James

Donkey Riding

Old McDonald

Morningtown Ride

Eight more miles to Louisville

Fira Bhata

Ride on

The coming of the roads

Byker hill

Minnie the moocher

Lambton worm



Tunes:

Belfast Hornpipe

Jacky Tar

Davy Davy knick knack

Boolavogue

Fanny Power

Rose of Allendale

Believe me if all those revealing young charms

Melrose Abbey

Plaisir d쳌fAmour

Inisheer

Ashokan Farewell

Soldiers joy

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 08:16 AM

In the last month or so

January Man
Good Luck to the Farmer
Bold Princess Royal
Benjamin Bowmaneer
Rosemary's Sister
Hard on the beach oar
Time after Time (Cyndi Lauper, segued into it by accident! :-o)
Flower of Scotland
Miners Life (after being reminded by the thread here)
Down in your mines
Black Diamonds
Banks of sweet primroses
I dreamt I dwelt in Marble Halls
Tom Tough

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:11 AM

Again, a lot of folk from Terry.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:30 AM

Something I wrote to a visitor to Sandy Bell's, Edinburgh in 2006. This is a mainly-instrumental session, not a folk club.

: I would be very happy if you could send me a list of some of
: the names that was played at sandy bells

Okay, I took in a notebook, put my ethnomusicologist's hat on and wrote
down everything we played this afternoon. Most led off by George, none
by me this time; I'll be starting more next week when George isn't there,
so I'll do another list then. Definite shortage of songs this time.

Four probably-Irish jigs we didn't know the names of (Anette knows the
third one, I'll try to ABC it)

2/4 marches
   Jean Mauchline (Bm)
   Ben Gullion (Am)

Strathspey versions of:
   The Road to the Isles (A)
   The Lea Rig (A)

Jigs
   Father O'Flynn (A)
   Rakes of Kildare (A dorian)
   Saddle the Pony (A)
   The Irish Washerwoman (G)

2/4 marches
   Mrs McDonald of Dunacht (D)
   Jim Christie of Wick (Bm)

Jigs
   The Ferry
   Three we didn't know the names of

2/4 marches
   McKenzie Highlanders
   The Poor Old Woman (or Glengarry's Farewell)
   72nd's Farewell to Aberdeen (or The Boy's Lament for his Dragon)
   The Hills of Perth (A mixolydian)

Jigs
   The Earl of Errol (C)
   McAlister's Jig (G)
   Boys of North Connel (D)
   Anderson's Delight (A)

Schottisches
   The Keel Row (A) - nb when I start this I do it in D
   Glasgow Highlanders
   Katie Bairdie (D) (or Kafoozalum - remember I've got the words
                                     if you're *really* curious)
   Orange and Blue (D) (or Brochan Lom)

2 strathspeys and 2 reels
   Banks of Spey (A dorian)
   Source of Spey
   Johnnie Lad (Em) (dance version of the song Johnnie Sangster)
   Inver Lasses

(interlude at this point for an extended discussion on attitudes
to vegetarianism around the EU)

Reels
   The Merry Blacksmith
   The Barrowburn Reel (D)
   Little Donald in the Pigpen (same as Little Donald's Wife? not sure)
   Lexie McAskill (A dorian)
   The Ale is Dear (Bm)

Waltzes
   Farquhar and Hetty's Waltz (D)
   Midnight on the Water (D)
(others of the same type sometimes put together: Margaret's Waltz,
The Stronsay Waltz, The Tennessee Waltz - if you get one you will
get one or two of the others but there's no telling which, and
Margaret's Waltz might be in A, D or G)

Reels
   The Burning of the Piper's Hut (Bm)
   a Tom Anderson tune we don't know the name of
   Far from Home (G)
   The New-Rigged Ship (A mixolydian/A dorian)

The Shetland Two-Step (G/C/D, I think)

Hakki's Polka

Duke of Perth reel set
   The Duke of Perth
   ?
   The Kettledrum
   J.B. Milne

Louis's Waltz (D)

4/4 marches
   Stella's Trip to Kamloops (A)
   The Braes of Dunvegan
   Memories of Father Angus McDonell (G)

Jigs
   I Am a Young Man that Lived with My Mother
   Kenmure's On and Awa
   Hot Punch
   The Rock and a Wee Pickle Tow

Jigs
   The Leg of a Duck (this has more names than any other tune I know)
   Scarce of Tatties
   The Banks of the Allan

Reels
   ? something about Prince Charlie (but *not* "Prince Charlie" itself)
   ?
   Staten Island
   The Breakdown (George only does the first 2 parts, there are three)

Polkas
   Egan's Polka
   Dennis Murphy's Polka
   Ger the Rigger

Retreat marches
   Pipe Major J.K. Cairns (hard to find so I've attached it)
   Torosay Castle
   Kirk Hill (or Kirk Brae? - I might have a copy of this somewhere)

Odessa Bulgar (Gm, there are several tunes of this name on the web)

2/4 marches
   Blackberry Bush
   The Brolam (A)
   Donald MacLeod's Reel (Am) (The Traditional Reel, The Nameless Reel)

Jigs
   Anne Fraser Mackenzie
   Charlie Hunter
   The Drunken Parson
   Biddy from Sligo

Jigs
   Rory MacLeod (A)
   Jig Runrig (G)
   Lark in the Morning (D)

Memories of Willie Snaith (G/C, not the keys it was written in)

Reels
   Jimmy Allan (G) (or The Reel of Tullochgorum, which has nothing to do with
                   the song/strathspey Tullochgorum, which we don't play much)
   Davy Davy Knick Knack (G)
   The Lass of Gowrie
   Aiken Drum (G)

Jigs
   The Lowland Lads Think They Are Fine
   Colonel Quigley

Marches and a reel
   The Battle of Waterloo (Am) (My Braw Highland Laddie, Mor Nighean a
                               Ghiberlain, Marion the Beggarman's Daughter)
   Flett from Flotta
   The Howl

Reels
   The High Road to Linton (A mixolydian/A major)
   The Fairy Dance (D)
   Loch Leven Castle (Am)
   ? (A)

Song: The Rocks of Merasheen (Em) (a Canadian woman called Susie sang this -
                                  she might still be around when you're here)

Two-step (6/8 march tunes)
   The 6:20 Two-step
   The Dancing Dustman

at which point the night session arrived, and two fiddlers (Jamie
and Kirsty) who hadn't played in the afternoon session before did
a linking set of very recent and rather obscure reels mostly by
Claire Mann that they mostly couldn't put names to.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:39 AM

Yes,Richard,like you most of my repertoire is 'trad heavy.' We're not a particularly traddy club,though. Among the regulars there is one who only sings Woody Guthrie/Jimmy Rogers material, whilst there are several unaccompanied singers whose songs are usually 'modern' trad songs (if you know what I mean - the ones that sound as if they should have been written in the 19th century. We also have someone else who does music hall numbers accompanied on the ukele or banjo, an accordianist who frequently plays klezmer numbers, an Irish fiddler, two melodean players, a harmonica player who regards the Spinners/Fivepenny piece as the epitome of the folk revival, and two chaps who do mainly early Carthy (c 1966) stuff. We also have someone who does Les Barker poems. Most styles are acceptable - from skiffle (we get some of that) to Irish pubs songs. It works well!

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:38 AM

Sounds like a great Club Terry. I'll bet you have a good attendance too?

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:44 AM

Thanks! Attendance varies from around 20 to the mid 40s,nearly all singers or musicians. We're a weekly club and the only cost is a voluntary donation (probably £1)into the collecting box. When it's full, it's given to our hosts,the Wimborne British Legion, who have never charged us for the room.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jon Nix
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 12:03 PM

My own current range includes a lot of the usual stuff, but I list a few here that I never (or rarely) hear anyone else doing:

Where known, I give the (author) or (ex-artist) but otherwise may be trad or I just don't know.....

Farewell to Whisky
My Father (Judy Collins)
My Rainbow Race (Pete Seeger)
Carolina in My Mind (James Taylor)
Strong Women Rule Us All (ex-Dick Gaughan)
Consummation (Claire Hamill)
Too Late for Prayin (Gordon Lightfoot)
The Hiring Fair (Ralph McTell)
If It Be Your Will (Leonard Cohen)
Fotheringay (Sandy Denny)
Making Up The Miles (Kieran Halpin)
Anna My Love (Harvey Andrews)
The Lancashire Lads (ex-Mike Harding)

I also play a few self-penned ditties and, when my son is around, we duet on:
Crazy Man Michael (Fairport) and Ride On (Christy Moore) (my son who plays a cool counterpoint to my rhythm section & vocals) and
Samba Pa Ti (Carlos Santana) (my son plays lead - goes down a storm!)

Got some good suggestions from others above, thanks, I'll have to start digging around again. Always good to find new stuff.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 12:54 PM

I agree with Jim Carroll,
If I pay to see Jazz,I dont expect Westlife.
for those who want a broader entertainment,why not call your club an Acoustic Music club.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gulliver
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 01:07 PM

Again, not a folk club, but this is what was played at the Glenside session in Dublin last night. Some of the regular singers were at another do, so not many songs (some of the songs were new to me, don't know their names):

Maggie
Boys of Barr na Sráide (to shouts of "C'm'on the Kingdom!")
Tipperary song with names of places (to shouts of "Up Tipp!")
Spanish Lady (to shouts of "C'm'on the Dubs!")
The County Mayo
Tennessee Waltz
As I Roved Out
Song about the lakes on the Shannon
A song from Sligo
Jigs, reels and hornpipes too numerous to mention
One march--the Centenary March
Slow air--Éamon an Chnoic

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 01:14 PM

Dick,

Because "acoustic" also has a common perception of what it is i.e. singer/ songwriter (mainly self penned) and not usually including "trad" or "trad sounding" stuff. It would be an even more inaccurate description.

Also the KFFC ....it's finger pickin' good!!!
(Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club) strap line wouldn't work!!!!!

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Gulliver
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 01:19 PM

Jim and Dick,

the original poster requested two things (which a lot of people including myself find interesting):
1) list here what songs were sung at your last meeting.
2)If you consider yourself to be a folk singer, What songs are you currently singing?

I would respectfully suggest that there's no need to waste your time on this thread by re-starting the endless debate about folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 01:29 PM

Gulliver,

You are quire right, apologies, I couldn't contain myself from getting embroiled in the argument. Set lists posted above.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 02:16 PM

I find it interesting too.
Gulliver ,some people are including songs not sung in a folk club,including yourself.[with respect the thread is Folk Clubs].
Jim was commenting on what he perceives as the lack of folk music played in folk clubs.
just for the record,when I go to a pub,to hear music,Iwould not expect, what I would hope to hear in a folk club.
here are mine,
Adieu sweet Nancy.
Tam Linn.
Devonshire Farmers Daughter
Lovely Joan
Game Ofall Fours.
John Blunt.
Seeds OfLove
Hard Times of England.
Hansdome CabinBoy
Bushes and Briars
Factory Girl.
Rounding the Horn.
Bonny ship Diamond
Coasts Of Peru.
Barbara Allen.
Just as tide was flowing
Claudy Banks.
Streams Of Lovely Nancy.
Do me Amma.
Cunning Cobbler
Butter and Cheese and All.
Hopping Down in Kent.
While Gamekeepers lie sleeping.
Ball of Yarn.
Sailortown.
Banks of the Bann
Rambling Irishman.
False Knight onthe road.
My son David
Bold Fisherman.
A Fair maid walking in her garden.
A Roving on a Winters night.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: BB
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 03:11 PM

Matt, indeed it is us (or should that be 'it is we'? Neither sounds quite right!) I wonder where you're based that you saw us in two such different places? Glad you enjoyed them!

Jim, it's just a matter of finding the right clubs - there are still quite a few around which have mainly trad. songs. We include a few non-trad. in our sets, but they're ones which feel right alongside the trad.

Dick, we run an 'acoustic' club as we want to encourage participation by those who wouldn't go to a 'folk' evening, but in fact most of what is performed is folk, and I think those looking for the singer-songwriter style would be sadly disappointed. It's been successful in drawing in a good number of people who found 'folk' much more enjoyable than they would have thought!

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: mattkeen
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 03:18 PM

BB
We (my wife and I) live in Northampton but have a lot of friends in Devon due to the fact my wife trained at hospitals in Exeter.

I was in Okehampton(ish) over the weekend picking up an instrument from Brook Guitars.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 04:43 PM

I loved going to folk clubs in my teens and twenties (as a listener). These days I rarely go, and instead sing 2 or 3 times weekly at local open mikes. This is partly because there aren't that many in my locality, partly because I generally prefer the atmosphere at OMs (except when they're in noisy pubs). I'm always the only one doing any trad/unaccompanied singing, so maybe I feel I'm doing something unique there, and also taking tradition out into the wider world? and perhaps changing the stereotype? (or reinforcing it, who knows!!)

So, my lists:

(1) With the band at gigs:
Wind that shakes the barley
A nighean nan geug
I am stretched on your grave
Song to the siren (Tim Buckley)
Siul a ruin
Black is the colour
Phantasmagoria in two (Tim Buckley)
Lily (my own)
Ailein Duinn a ni's a naire

(2) On my own at open mikes:
Some of the above, plus -
She moved through the fair
In the broom
Oh, love it is a killing thing
My Laggan love
The forsaken maiden
Widdecombe Fair (Steve Knightley)
Bidh clann ulaidh
Ailein Duinn
Fraoch a ronaidh
The Easter tree (Dave Goulder)
As I roved out in the County Cavan
Crazy man Michael
Ailein Duinn

Rather a mixed bag! :)

Sue

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 04:49 PM

Dick, we run an 'acoustic' club as we want to encourage participation by those who wouldn't go to a 'folk' evening, but in fact most of what is performed is folk, and I think those looking for the singer-songwriter style would be sadly disappointed. It's been successful in drawing in a good number of people who found 'folk' much more enjoyable than they would have thought!
    very good point Barbara.which is why Iam always very keen to perform at Maritime festivals like Scarborough [that will be a tenner Richard Grainger]because you can perform[what Icall Folk]to a non folk audience.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:09 PM

I am quite impressed with most of the songs mentioned here. It would be great to have
access to some of these traditional and beautiful songs via YouTube or other sources such as mp3's. Some of them I have not heard and would love to hear them.

I think the folkies in the UK seem to be way ahead of us in the States in terms of learning the traditional folk songs that endure and performing them for others.

If the Folk Clubs are keeping these songs alive, that's wonderful.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: reggie miles
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:31 PM

very good point Barbara.which is why Iam always very keen to perform at Maritime festivals like Scarborough [that will be a tenner Richard Grainger]because you can perform[what Icall Folk]to a non folk audience.

Captain, it's funny that you should mention this, because I find myself offering what I'm fairly certain is non-folk music to folk audiences in folk oriented settings and I'm surprised at what wonderful responses I've received.

I've not heard of most of songs that have been offered here and I know that few have heard what I'm playing.

Perhaps, what's really needed is a complete disassociation with labels like Folk, Acoustic, Singer/Songwriter, Trad, etc. Labels seem to do nothing more than divide us instead of bringing us closer together as folks who all appreciate fine music.

I know that some folks like their music sweet and others seem tickled if it's not. Some like it loud and then there are those who scoff and plug their ears at that idea. There's room enough for every avenue of musical expression. It's obvious that not everyone will enjoy it all but there are those that can find some merit in everything musical.

Musical expression, at its root, is not static. It is only ever changing, just as those who engage in the act of performing it are. Though we, who hold it in such great esteem, might wish it to remain in some permanent state forever unchanged, categorized and labeled, those yearnings are, in fact, completely at odds with the very nature of what musical expression is.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Bert
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 10:17 PM

Thanks Gulliver this thread is to find out what is actually being sung. Discussions about 'What is folk' should be continued on this thread.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 03:38 AM

Banjiman
"It is the image (being perpetuated by the BBC at the moment) of fingers in ears, woolly jumpers and 97 verse unaccompanied ballads that puts people off)."
Balls! Folk music as I (and the dictionaries) know it, covers tragic, comic, fast, slow, lyrical, narrative, melodic, angular... dozens of musical and poetic forms. The subjects include bawdry, eroticism, rural idylls, murder, seduction, rape, political and social struggle, social misalliance, ritual, satire, high comedy and low farce, crime, birth, marriage, death, industrial labour, seafaring, military, war, work, pleasure.... you name it, its there in the repertoire. If you can point out any other song-form which covers such a wide and varied spectrum, please do so. If the Beeb's idea of folk song is yours, I'm afraid its not for you and you really should look elswhere else for your diversion.
Since when did we have to rely on no-nothings from the BBC for our image? As far as folk music is concerned, any influence for the good dissipated with the departure of Maddeau Stewart, Marie Slocum, Charles Parker, Philip Donellan and Bert Lloyd. There really are no grounds for blaming the demise on the image project by today's Beeb tossers; the – the fault lies squarely with the club scene itself.
The clubs deteriorated after the electric experiment petered out; when one of the leading 'electric folkies' stood up at the National Festival at Loughborough and said "folk music no longer has any attraction for me.... nowadays I'm only in it for the money". It went with the disappearance of the mini-choirs (who fought the valiant fight to make every folk-song sound the same). The club audience exodus came when it was possible to spend a night at a folk club without hearing a folk-song; when the term 'folk' became a cultural dustbin in which to dump virtually every other song form; – I know; I was part of that exodus.
If the BBC image of "woolly jumpers and 97 verse unaccompanied ballads" was the cause of the decline, it should be possible for you to point out the clubs responsible – perhaps you could name us a few names!

"Jim, why not start your own club then putting on just "trad folk", if your theory is correct it should be packed out? I'd gladly visit once in a while and I'd gladly eat my words above."
Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt-and forty years worth of pleasure (and enough good memories to last four lifetimes). For twenty years I was very much part of a club that pulled in audiences for the real thing (in all, it survived on the real thing for nearly forty years, right up to the death of MacColl). I am still motoring along on the petrol that those years put in my tank, and hope to continue to do so till Alzheimer's takes a firm grip.

"if I didn't call it a folk club, I could double the attendance."
Fine; if you are unhappy with the term, especially if it doesn't describe what goes on in your club, call it something else.

"Having said that I believe (some) trad song is worth preserving, but it will have to rub shoulders with songs that people know they want to listen to."
Why....? Because the 'folk' clubs today are attracting a miniscule fraction of the audiences of, say, for the super-groups and boy bands, why don't you throw your doors open to them? Absurd suggestion of course – you present the music you wish to because you think it important enough to do so. Folk music should be allowed to stand or fall on its own merits; there should be no necessity to re-invent the language to incorporate other music and please the crowds; folk music has never been a mass entertainment, and it probably never will be. We're in it for the music – not for the popularity (or the money).
I now live in Ireland where fifteen years ago folk music was being sneered at by the media as 'diddly-di music'. Nowadays, I can switch on the radio or television and hear good music at least a dozen times a week. This county alone has four venues dedicated mainly to traditional music. The town I live in hosts an annual week-long summer school dedicated to teaching traditional music; it has just had its (extremely generous) Arts Council grant increased by 10%, with an added bonus of €30,000 plus for the provision of teaching venues.
We have several musicians taking classes of dozens of youngsters throughout the year, ensuring that the music will be passed on at least to the next generation.
Ireland boasts at least two national, world-class archives of folk music and song, and numerous smaller ones scattered throughout the country. This time next year we hope to have a local one up and running here in West Clare.
None of this has been handed on a plate; it has been fought for my people like Seamus Delargy, Nicholas Carolan, Breandan Breathnach, Tom Munnelly and a handful of others who dedicated time and effort to preserving and passing on the music.
Things here are by no means perfect – but they are well on the way to being much better – and we've managed to 'pass it on' which is really what it's all about.
Gulliver - with respect - what goes on in the 'FOLK' clubs has everything to do with what the definition of 'FOLK'.
Richard, you are quite right of course; there are some FOLK clubs trying to present Folk song.
I take hope from your own personal repertoire list that there are still some people singing folk songs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 04:08 AM

Jim, You'll be glad you got that off your chest, a couple of points.

Firstly an apology when I said:

"It is the image (being perpetuated by the BBC at the moment) of fingers in ears, woolly jumpers and 97 verse unaccompanied ballads that puts people off)."

it should have read "(being perpetuated by the Guardian at the moment)" you can find details on another thread.

Secondly, I would be really interested in seeing a set list/ club night list from you. I might learn something!

I firmly believe that a good song is a good song. I enjoy hearing them sung, especially in a "folk" style. There are lot's of good songs mentioned in the various posts above, I am completely agnostic as to whether they are "trad", self penned or borrowed off another writer.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 04:30 AM

At risk of thread drift, the "electric experiment" is not over - much to the horror of some and glee of others I use amplified mandolin (I call it my "mandoplank") to accompany the Morris side I play for.

I rebuilt it to use humbucking pickups because I prefer the sound, and at present can set it on the amp to sound fairly like a mandolin, use a graphics pedal to produce a not-too distorted but very trebly bite, and a so-called "Metal" pedal to produce a whine with sustain that can be used to play melodies and sound vaguely reminiscent of an electric violin, or thrash out chords for an effect somewhere between the Who and Metallica.

An unamplified mandolin was simply not keeping up with the melodeons and banjo - much less the drums and the accordion player whose 80-bass is really a midi controller and depending on the hat he has on canbe anything from a trombone to a banjo to a pipe organ to a grand piano or even a peal of churchbells - and whose amplifier has a LOT more grunt than mine.

One of the drummers can also play a bit of bass guitar but I have not yet persuaded him that lugging a dirty great bass amp and huge batteries for it is a good idea!

This Sweeps Festival I might be participating in an arrangement of a Carolan harp piece for three mandolins and bass guitar - I don't normally play Irish but that might be fun!

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jon Nix
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 06:17 AM

As long as all tastes are catered for somewhere, then I suppose it does not matter whether a particular club claims to be "folk" ou "acoustic" or even "semi-electric".
The main thing is that people are continuing the tradition of performing live. Rather than becoming a nation full of i-POD carriers, with headsets buzzing away, drowing out the real world.
That is perhaps the truest "tradition" we are following, rather than the style of music.
What do you think?

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 08:08 AM

"I firmly believe that a good song is a good song. I enjoy hearing them sung, especially in a "folk" style. There are lot's of good songs mentioned in the various posts above, I am completely agnostic as to whether they are "trad", self penned or borrowed off another writer."

That's two of us then.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 08:58 AM

While I would not seek to prescribe who should like what,

while the categories of music are not susceptible of being ranked by merit,

while I tend to like "folk" (1954 definition) music better than much more modern music of the style and otherwise dubbed "folk" but also like a range of modern musics

I do think it is important to know what is what and where it comes from.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 09:53 AM

"I do think it is important to know what is what and where it comes from."

Richard, why?

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 01:09 PM

ooops guest above was me at work....sorry!

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 01:32 PM

Well folks, it's all been fairly interesting this past few months, as the shuttlecock that is known as Folk Music, has gotten itself volleyed backwards and forwards over that high net.

... and never yet has it touched the ground...

I'm away now until Easter, offline for most of that, but all being well I shall return with my metaphorical Slazenger in hand, to once more tog out on the winning side, and keep that bird flying a bit longer. ;-)

I've had a nice winter with ye all, but the road beckons me back to the land of the green, red and blue troopers, and my fingers will have grown fingers of their own by the time I get back

I've promised a few people I would check out a few things for them while I'm out there, so I'll take this opportunity to tell you that I'll do my best to see what I can find out.

Take it easy folks and keep the flag flying.

From a fellow flag-flyer.

B.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 01:35 PM

I hope the road is good to you Brendy. I've enjoyed your contributions to the 'cat and look forward to exchanging further ideas in the future.

Cheers for now.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 01:41 PM

Why?
Because as well as being bloody good entertainment it also contains a huge part of our history and unwritten culture, largely unavailable elsewhere - not to everybody's interest, but.....
On a more down-to-earth note; try telling the man who doles out the grants "well, I can't really define it; I don't go in much for definitions - but give us the money anyway".
Paul, stopped singing around the time I stopped going to the clubs.
Be happy to provide you with lists of songs that were performed at The Singers, and other clubs I have been involved with - when I get back from Dublin - going to hear a couple of bothy singers there tomorrow.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Saro
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 01:44 PM

Getting back to what is being sung, here's a recent CMR set list
Guist Ploughman (Barber)
The Sailing Trade (trad)
Farewell He (trad)
Low Down in the Broom (trad)
Twa Magicians (trad)
Peppers and Tomatoes (MacTell)
The Smows of winter Graeme Miles)
Rob Em All (?)
Summon Up the Sun (o'Connor)
Jackie Munro (trad)
The Batley Miner (trad)
Red winged Blackbird (Wheeler)
Guard Yer man Weel (handle)
Bonny Hawthorn (trad)
Minnie o' Shirva's Cradle Song (trad)
Ma Bonny Lad (trad)
Crossing the Bar (Tennyson/Arbo)
Wonderful sucking Pig (trad)
Keep You in Peace (Morgan)

Best wishes

Saro

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 01:46 PM

>> "I do think it is important to know what is what and where it comes from."

Richard, why?<<

How about good, honest curiosity, for a start? Who, enjoying a song, would not want to know where it came from?

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 01:50 PM

Jim,

OK, I like the pragmatic response....so money is the issue?

"a huge part of our history and unwritten culture, largely unavailable elsewhere - not to everybody's interest, but....." completely within my range of interests, but aren't many "modern folk" songs doing the same thing with regards to more recent history and current affairs? The best (and sometimes not!)of these might survive to inform future generations of our life & times.

I'm sorry to hear that you have stopped singing. I would be interested to find out what is being sung on your side of the water.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 02:00 PM

Paul,I provided a list,I live inIreland.
my gig at Skibberren singers club,was very close to that list ,they asked me to sing English Folksongs,and very happy they were with my repertoire and performance.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 02:05 PM

Dick,

Thanks, yes I saw it....and a fine list it was too, good stuff (and you know from previous interactions I like what you do)....just not the only good stuff is my point!

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 02:39 PM

A very interesting thread, both the usual revisited arguments, and the actual lists which I find intriguing. Assuming people are being honest, it is educative to see what is, rather than what people think ought to be.
Here is my list, as far as I can remember, from the two sets the Boat Band played at the last folk club we played at: the Musical Traditions Club, at the King and Queen in Fitzrovia,London.

(not in performance order)
Trip to the Lakes (trad English jig)
Chester Castle/Chester Hornpipe(trad English hornpipe)
The Willow Tree (trad English song)
Lyme Park/Slip it in Easy (trad English jigs)
The Gypsy Princess(trad Irish tune)
Eunice Two Step(trad cajun, possibly written Amadee Ardoin)
Chere Ici, Chere La Bas(trad creole, possibly written Bois-Sec Ardoin)
Iko Iko (trad New Orleans street song)
Keswick Bonny Lasses/Stables Grand Hornpipe(trad English/Welsh?)
Je M'Endors (trad cajun)
Alfred Hughes' Waltz/Shrewsbury Waltz(trad English)
Bosco Blues(Cajun, Iry Lejeune/trad)
E Hine(contemporary Maori, can't remember name of author)
Trip to Galloway/My Love is but a lassie yet/Whitehaven Volunteers/Through the Wood Spinning(trad Anglo-Scottish)
Sultan's Polka(trad English)
Cumberland Reel/Carlisle Races(trad English jigs)
Valse des Cherokees(trad cajun).

That's about it, might have been one or two others. Wish I made lists at the time, they would be interesting twenty years on!
I hope Jim Carrol is satisfied by the high level of trad material!
All the floor singers were pretty damn trad too, but then it's a very traddy club!

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Tootler
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 03:22 PM

Here is my list

I started going to folk clubs regularly just over a year ago. I quickly realised a need to learn a lot more songs than I knew if I wasn't going to repeat myself too often. To this end, I kept a record of what I sang. Here is the list (FWIW)

As Sylvie Was a-Walking (Trad)
Banks O' Sicily (Hamish Henderson)
Barbara Allen (Trad)
Barnyards O' Delgaty (Trad)
Boars Head Carol (Trad)
Bonnie Lass of Fyvie (Trad)
Bonny at Morn (Trad)
Bonny Earl of Moray (Trad)
Both Sides the Tweed (Dick Gaughan)
Brigg Fair (Trad)
Carrickfergus (Trad)
Craw Killed the Pussy (Trad)
D-Day Dodgers (Anon)
Dalesman's Litany (F W Moorman)
Dirty Old Town (Ewan MacColl)
Grim King of the Ghosts (C.17 Broadside)
Harvest Home (C.17 Broadside, but originally John Dryden/Henry Purcell)
Holmfirth Anthem (Trad)
How Can Ye Gang Lassie (Trad)
I Loved a Lass (Trad)
Jennifer Gentle (Trad)
Jock O' Hazeldean (Walter Scott)
Johnnie's Gone to Hilo (Trad)
Jovial Beggar (Trad)
Katie Bairdie (Trad)
Last Thing on My Mind (Tom Paxton)
Leaving of Liverpool (Trad)
Leezie Lindsay (Trad)
Lyke Wake Dirge (Trad)
MacPherson's Rant (Trad)
Mill Mill O (Trad)
Mormond Braes (Trad)
Never Weather Beaten Sail (Thomas Campion)
Nightingale Sings (Trad)
Fhair a Bhata - in English translation (Trad)
Piper O' Dundee (Trad)
Ploughboy Lads (Trad)
Raglan Road (Patrick Kavanagh)
Ramblin' Boy (Tom Paxton)
Rosin the Beau (Trad)
Rounding the Horn (Trad)
Rovin' Ploughboy (Trad)
Ruben Ranzo (Trad)
Shenandoah (Trad)
Side of a Hill (Paul Simon)
Sun is Burning (Ian Campbell)
The Navigators (C.19 Broadside)
Three Ravens (Trad)
Tramps & Hawkers (Trad)
Unquiet Grave (Trad)
Well Below the Valley-o (Trad)
Westlin' Winds (Robert Burns)
Where Have All the Flowers Gone? (Pete Seeger)
Wild Mountain Thyme (Trad?)
Ye Banks & Braes (Robert Burns)

I make it about 70% of these are traditional songs.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 05:04 PM

Why? Because if you don't know where you came from you don't know who you are.

Because the mystery of so many real folk songs lies in their many possible meanings.

If you look at a painting don't you want to know about it?

If you see an architectural marvel don't you want to know who the architect was? Don't you wonder about the difference between a Norman arch and a Roman arch?

You see a cityscape, with bricked up arches and new openings and buildings attached to each other. Don't you wonder how they got like that?

You drink a fine wine, don't you want to know what it is?

You drink a fine beer, don't you want to know what it is?

I could not embrace ignorance so readily as some, it seems.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 05:20 PM

Richard,

Very poetic, I like it.

....and yes, I do want to know where a song comes from...but not as part of a value judgement as to it's worth. I felt that was what was being hinted at above.

Richard, Jim, Dick,

A genuine question. Do you think you would always know if a song was trad or of more recent, known authorship on just hearing it and without any background information?

Thanks

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Outsider
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 07:32 PM

I am really enjoying the lists here. I don't see why these other debates (which are just repeats ad nauseam of posts going back years) can't be held somewhere else, and keep this thread on topic.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Bert
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 07:46 PM

Well said Outsider.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 03:16 AM

Oh no, I thought I had made that clear many times. Whether a song is "folk" to me implies no judgment about its merit. THere are some excellent modern songs, and some crap ones, and in 50 years the crap ones will have been forgotten. Most folk songs have have been filtered through the memories of generations and so the most forgettable have been forgotten already.

And no, there are quite a few contemporary songs that will often fool the casual listen and often be thought folk songs. Some would be

3 score and 10 (which I do)
Fiddlers Green
The gay fusilier (Pete Coe)(which I do)
Darcy Farrow (US, but still sounds US trad)
The importunate child (which I do)

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 03:29 AM

Banjiman,
No, money is not the issue; communication is (an issue maybe). We simply need to know that we are talking about the same thing.
If you are going to include all the songs on the above lists under th term 'folk song' there has to be a definition which covers thm all.
If I buy a tin of soup labeled 'mushroom' and it turns out to be tomato, I'm not very happy about it. If it continues to happen I eventually go to another shop - simple as that.
The issue of money only arises when organisations like EFolkDSS apply for grants to aid their work. God knows, there have been enough threads on this lately.
Do I think I could recognise.....?
Not necessarily - depends on how well they are written
Somebody mentioned Evelyn Wells book, 'The Ballad Tree' on another thread. There is a revealing chapter there on ballad imitations.
Can I just clear up one point. I am in no way opposed to newly written songs being sung at folk clubs; there is a wonderful songwriting movement here in Ireland (Con 'Fada' O'Driscoll, Fintan Vallely, Sean Moan, Tim Lyons, etc - all composing folk-style). I share MacColl's dream of new songs being written using traditional poetic methods because I believe that the form that the 'folk' composed in gave the songs a universality which enabled them to travel and take root elsewhere; a shared, communal culture. It didn't happen. Most of today's written songs I find to be introspective and private (stillborn). No harm in that if that's what you want to do, but it's not folk.
Greg,
Nice list - not enough contemporary songs...... please don't take me seriously.
Outsider- Bert,
With respect, any thread like this is bound to stray into the form and quality of what is sung in clubs - long may that be the case if we are going to value the clubs. (we haven't mentioned standards of singing yet).
Must go - going to miss my train
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 03:30 AM

I sing 99 florins in Bsharp.

Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 04:04 AM

Richard's mention of Darcy Farrow is, I think, a good example of how a 'modern' song can pass into the 'tradition', albeit my own tradition. I sing it but have never heard a recorded version. It was being sung at Wimborne by two different people and I absorbed the melody over time, liked it so I went and found the words. I added it to my own repertoire although I've never sung it when the people I learned it from are present! I know the story behind it and am aware that there are a hundred or so recorded versions, including John Denver's, but to me it was just another song that I wanted to learn and sing. And I do it differently to the others at Wimborne - one does it as a bluegrass number and the other in a rather 'skiffly' manner.