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Folk-bad reputation among the young?

Ian Stephenson 11 May 99 - 05:25 AM
The Shambles 11 May 99 - 06:58 AM
Allan C. 11 May 99 - 10:01 AM
LEJ 11 May 99 - 12:18 PM
Llanfair 11 May 99 - 01:17 PM
SeanM 11 May 99 - 01:43 PM
Mudjack 11 May 99 - 03:36 PM
SeanM 11 May 99 - 03:38 PM
Bri 12 May 99 - 12:10 AM
SeanM 12 May 99 - 12:25 AM
Mudjack 12 May 99 - 12:40 AM
SeanM 12 May 99 - 12:41 AM
ddw 12 May 99 - 01:01 AM
karen jonason 12 May 99 - 04:52 AM
Sam Pirt 12 May 99 - 05:28 AM
Jane Bird 12 May 99 - 05:46 AM
Llanfair 12 May 99 - 07:01 AM
Ian Stephenson 12 May 99 - 08:39 AM
Jane Bird 13 May 99 - 09:48 AM
annamill 13 May 99 - 01:59 PM
SeanM 13 May 99 - 02:27 PM
Llanfair 13 May 99 - 02:44 PM
Mick Lowe 13 May 99 - 08:08 PM
SingsIrish Songs 13 May 99 - 09:27 PM
SingsIrish Songs 13 May 99 - 09:33 PM
The Shambles 14 May 99 - 06:56 PM
Susanne (skw) 14 May 99 - 07:29 PM
Mick Lowe 14 May 99 - 07:32 PM
Mick Lowe 14 May 99 - 07:39 PM
SingsIrish Songs 14 May 99 - 08:23 PM
SeanM 14 May 99 - 08:26 PM
The Shambles 16 May 99 - 06:51 AM
Susanne (skw) 16 May 99 - 05:46 PM
The Shambles 16 May 99 - 06:41 PM
Richard Bridge 16 May 99 - 06:52 PM
Allan C. 17 May 99 - 09:28 AM
Garry of Australia 18 May 99 - 05:50 AM
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Subject: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Ian Stephenson
Date: 11 May 99 - 05:25 AM

Ian here, M17, Been reading the how old are mudcatters thread, and was fairly suprised at the number of young'ens like me. I would have expected a lot less. Whould anyone like to speculate on the reason why folk has such a bad rap among the young'ens? Could it be that they are simply miseducated from a young age? I know a lot of young folkies in the UK, and there are a lot of good oportunities for us as performers. There are a number of excellent summer schools with fantastic tutors such as Karen Tweed, Simon Thoumire, Nancy Kerr etc. predominately for the younger folkie. So why when you say the two words "folk music" to anyone over 8 years old will they burst into tears of laughter? Could television play a part? On the christmas special edition "Men behaving badly" episode, the main character took the serious mick out of our tradition, and the next day I got a load of stick from so-called "School-chums". Slighly disgruntled, Ian


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 May 99 - 06:58 AM

Ian

It would be useful to hear how you found and why you like the music?

Here in the UK, I don't think there is anything wrong with the music, when people are exposed to it, they like it. Good examples of this are Riverdance and music from The Titanic, which have brought Irish music to the general public's attention. The wonderful music from Bonnie and Clyde and Duelling Banjos, which is just about the only exposure to US styles that we get here and a few other examples.

The problem here in the UK is not folk music but 'folkies'. These are the self-appointed guardians of folk music, who's eccentricities, earnestness, herd-instinct and clothing are the easy targets for the ridicule you mention. They are responsible for putting people off the music, but they are, I hope I am right in saying, a dying breed.

I only hope that the new, younger devotees, who I see, with delight, adopting almost every instrument and style, do not end up making the same mistakes.

I wonder what the situation is in other countries?


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Allan C.
Date: 11 May 99 - 10:01 AM

I think that here in the U.S. some years ago the folk movement became mixed into, and therefore labeled interchangeably with, the hippie/anti-war movement. The media and those over-thirty people (who, you might remember, were not to be trusted!) were among those distributing the labels. Now that the former hippies, etc. are more or less in charge, folk music is allowed to stand on its own merits without a bunch of negative labeling.

Many of us who were folk singers back then (or are now) are doing our best to pass on the legacy to the younger set. Look at what PP&M have been doing over the years. Lots of kids have grown up hearing such songs as "Leatherwing Bat" without ever considering whether to label it as folk music or whatever. All they know is that they like it. I know that both of my daughters heard songs like that and "On Top of Spaghetti" and "She'll Be Comin' 'Round the Mountain" as early as pre-school and learned to love them. While neither daughter would say that folk is their favorite kind of music, each has a special part of her soul which is touched a bit when they hear some good folk music. As much as I would like to take full credit for that, I think their appreciation was greatly augmented by some of the sources mentioned above.

Bad reputation? No. I really don't think folk has a bad rep among the younger set. I was surprised and gratified to discover that a Goth friend of my older daughter is a big fan of Mississippi blues and loves good old Simon and Garfunkel. I have learned from her and others that many of the more serious Goths have a deep and abiding respect for things of the distant past. Folk music is among them - the older, the better.

The truth is, (and I don't want to sound like some sort of half-baked soothsayer) that I firmly believe we are on the cusp of a big, new, folk movement. Among my daughter's crowd I hear a lot of dissatisfaction with much of what is currently offered in the pop scene. Many have begun to lean toward the more ballad-like offerings rather than the buzz music - at least as far as listening music. Dancing is a whole different matter as, I am sure, it is for most of us. But while I believe what I do about the future of folk, I also believe that the days are gone of having a single style of music take over the land like R&R did. Frankly, I am glad to see it. I am all for diversity in every aspect of our cultural lives.


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: LEJ
Date: 11 May 99 - 12:18 PM

Good discussion. Also take a look at previous threads "Where are the KIds" and "Gen-x does Folk".


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Llanfair
Date: 11 May 99 - 01:17 PM

Second generation Hippies are around in great numbers. They have listened to what their parents found to be important, related it to the state of the planet today, and adopted and adapted the music. Proper folk music grows and changes with every person who hears and performs it, as well as the countries it is taken to. Look at "When I was on Horseback" My youngest son performs folk along with his own stuff and a smattering of the Beatles, and it goes down a storm. Mid- Wales is a place where "alternative" families can live a self-sufficient lifestyle, and their children absorb the music along with the culture. The children learn Welsh at school, and all take part in the local eisteddfod. Hwyl, Bron


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: SeanM
Date: 11 May 99 - 01:43 PM

Hi! I'm approaching no longer being 'young' (27), but started listening pretty much of my own volition around age 22. My problem is that I can't really relate to the more 'modern' folkies... I know it's a crime , but I was attracted to the Irish folk music first in an attempt to find out what my ancestry found important, and it just kinda went from there.

I work at a renfaire in California, and the group I play with does a fair amount of sea shanties and other older folk songs, and there are several groups doing other traditional numbers. The good news is that the members of my group (and the others) range in age from around 10 to 60 or so. The bad news is that our stock of people coming out to work is dwindling, and less interested in the history behind it all.

But I do have to agree that there is a 'folk resurgence' on the horizon. I recently attended a show at the House of Blues in Hollywood (moderately large venue, as far as bars go), and it was an entirely 'Gaelic Folk' night... three of the better bar bands in the area. It's starting at club level, but people out here are once again finding it acceptable to dance like lunatics to 'Drunken Sailor', 'Leaving Liverpool', and many others. It is a bit 'jumped up' in pace to make it danceable, and the material tends to lean towards the crowd pleasers, but it's still coming back.

M


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Mudjack
Date: 11 May 99 - 03:36 PM

While working on staff as a board member for a folk festival, We were seriously considering changing the name to Namewithheld Acoustic Music Festival due in part to the stigma attached to the 60's with the protest years.
Those were difficult times for a young Marine who was deeply into the music for it's protest values and wondering from week to week if I would have to pick up my rifle and kill another human being for the sake of freedom and peace. I obviously was sporting the wrong uniform and came into alliance with the peace-nics through the music of Joan Baez, Pete Seeger and all those other COMMIE AGITATORS.I became aware of them through the listening of "pop folk" groups of Kingston Trio, Limeliters, Bud and Travis. God Bless the music that opened our eyes to the side of justice and what our country's leaders are capable of doing for the sake of freedom and the American way.Yes FOLK MUSIC has it's stigma,is that bad? I have'nt met a dishonest "folkie" yet. The folk music rage of the sixties brought a tremendous amount of people to the folk music scene. Neo folkies are not purist but thanks to the pop folk groups, gave us a start and gave us a direction to discover that folk music has deep planted roots from the traditional arts.
Thanks for the thread and the chance to share why and how I became a folkie.
As for the younger generations, some day they may discuss how and why they became Rappies"

Mudjack


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: SeanM
Date: 11 May 99 - 03:38 PM

Anyone know why we're suddenly going bold in mid thread? I didn't do it...

M


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Bri
Date: 12 May 99 - 12:10 AM

I'm from the US and I have a farily good idea why it's not all that popular in my area...it's just not "cool" to like it, basically because the choirs do some and no one likes the choir teacher...of course, this is my school only. Yet, some of the folks songs in choir were acutally what got me looking up certain ones...that, and my grandma and camp. So, I think it might be not having the exposure to it and never really listening with songs like "Pretty Fly for a White Guy" blasting thru the radio...and now it also seems that if u play the guitar as a teen, people automatically assume you play Alice in Chains and Smashing Pumpkins on an electric?? That ticks me off...just thought I'd mention that.


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: SeanM
Date: 12 May 99 - 12:25 AM

Don't feel to bad Bri... I've had more than enough people ask me if I can play 'that thing from Riverdance/Titanic' on the pennywhistle. Keep the faith... it's good to hear from people younger than I am starting out.

M


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Mudjack
Date: 12 May 99 - 12:40 AM

To Sean,>br> In my case the bold was to highlight only a phrase or title, my attempts at being a PC Garu are really bad. I read up on the thread HTML stuff and have been trying my luck at it.
Mudjack


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: SeanM
Date: 12 May 99 - 12:41 AM

Don't know what I did to start it then... I've had it happen a couple of times now.

Oh well.

M


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: ddw
Date: 12 May 99 - 01:01 AM

Does folk music have more of a bad rep today than it did 30 years ago? Back when I was in college and earning a good part of my keep by performing in clubs, the vast majority of the people I went to school with were dyed-in-the-wool rockers who tho't we "folky-fogies" were just there to give them something to laugh at from the heights of their synthasized-schlock towers. Yea, people would smoke a little and sway to the music at a protest rally, but most of them didn't really LIKE it. We were few then and we'll probably remain fairly few. But I will say this about the younguns -- the ones who are turning to acoustic (not necessarily folk) do appear willing to listen to the old stuff. There's a bar right across the street from where I work that has an open mike every Sunday night. I started going in about two or three months ago and doing tunes by Miss. John Hurt, Josh White, Bo Carter, etc. and the kids (I know they're old enough to drink, but my age is easily the total of any two others in the place) have really responded well. I almost never do a set anymore without someone approaching me afterward to find out more about the music. My balk pate and grey beard may look out of place in there, but they've made it abundantly clear that I (and my music) are welcome.

BTW, I also think there's a bit of resurgence of FM going on and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it doesn't start to make its way back in bits and pieces into the mainstream as it did about the time of the KT and Limeliters, but it will always remain something very special to only a relatively small group.

Sigh!

cheers....ddw


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: karen jonason
Date: 12 May 99 - 04:52 AM

Like all cultural influences it's a lot to do with what you were brought up with. My daughters, 19 and 22, like folk music and know loads of songs but they also like other forms as well. They were brought up with folk in the home. My childhood was full of The Weavers, Joan Baez and I still enjoy that style.


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Sam Pirt
Date: 12 May 99 - 05:28 AM

Hi Ian

I don't think folk has that much of a bad reputation amung the young I mean the amount of young people involved in folk music is just getting bigger and bigger. I do realise that there must be only 4 people I know that go to my university that are in to folk music but isn't it that which make s folk music and the people in it what it. Besides I think people who don't like it are envious when they find out about what fun we have had at one of the meny festivals!

Bye, Sam


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Jane Bird
Date: 12 May 99 - 05:46 AM

I think it often depends on how broad your cultural horizons are, as to whether you're interested in folk and music. I'm very interested in traditional and roots music, but parents aren't particularly. They do, however, have a couple of Steeleye Span albums, and as a kid, I took it from there, and found out about other folk bands.

However, I do have fairly broad tastes in music, and I'll listen to classical music, pop, jazz, rock and all sorts of wierd rootsy stuff as well (I'm a regular listener to Andy Kershaw's Radio 1 programme in the UK). This broad taste in music and the arts in general, is something my parents encouraged in me.

Incidentally, I'm also fairly young (22). Most of my (similarly aged) friends don't entirely share my passion for folk music, but when presented with it, they do listen, and on the whole like it. Introducing one's friends to folk music, in fact, can be relatively easy. Introducing them to folk dance is another.

I've been involved in organising and performing at some of the ceilidhs that are held at my univresity. And I know few people who've come along to these events and not enjoyed themselves. On the other hand, trying to persuade the same people that morris dancing isn't the most ridiculous thing in the world is usually an up-hill task.

Jane


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Llanfair
Date: 12 May 99 - 07:01 AM

Jane--- if you are in the UK, get your reluctant friends to see the Shropshire Bedlams. Border Morris is to Cotswold Morris as the Rockers were to the Mods. I've seen them a few times at festivals, and their performances are astounding. Hwyl Bron.

Perhaps that was not a good comparison. I'm thinking more of the difference between a raunchy 1,000cc motorbike and a Vespa scooter. Hwyl.


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Ian Stephenson
Date: 12 May 99 - 08:39 AM

Also try the Amazazingly fantastic dance team -"Mr Fox" They only come out at night, at have secret rehearsals, and Nobody knows when they will turn up or where! They hold flaming torces, and they are REALLY good. Thats enough to get anyone interested! Cheers for the input mudcatters, Ian


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Jane Bird
Date: 13 May 99 - 09:48 AM

I've seen Shropshire Bedlams, and yes, they are pretty impressive - scary too! There aren't that many border sides round our way: it's mainly Cotswold and North-West. The Flagcrakers of Craven are fairly near though, so whenever they're in town I endevour to drag my friends along.

Jane


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: annamill
Date: 13 May 99 - 01:59 PM

Boy I get into everything, don't I?

RADICAL IDEA and maybe I'm wrong. My son, who is now 22 and beautiful and intelligent has always enjoyed the rap hip-hop music of today. I've taught him to think for himself, not to be a sheep. (sometime I'm sorry for that ;-) At first, the obscenity, and unclear lyrics in the song were not too appealing to me. He took me in hand and made me listen tellin me that these songs told stories about a people in pain. I listened to the singing and began to understand his point of view. When I told him I couldn't always understand the words, he wrote them out for me. Talk about a bad 'rap'. The song called 'Cop Killer' is not about killing cops. It's the story of growing up in a culture of fear. Having to have a gun when you're a child just to survive. About seeing you brother killed in front of you, seeing your friends die from drugs. Not being able to walk down the street. About perpetuation of this pain. What happens to a person when he kills a cop. He's dead. One way or another he's dead. This is the way too many people end up in this culture.

Again, RADICAL IDEA- Maybe this is "folk music'. Just different folk. Some of the kids see this. Maybe it's hard for them to go back to the gentle way we handled telling stories after they've seen this pain.

It's not music..it's poetry to a beat. And sometimes a very creative use of the english language.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. I'm just an old rather liberal beatnic. I also remember my parents reaction to Elvis.

Can I have a response to this? I've come to respect the opinions I hear here. I like to know if I'm wrong and why.

Anna

PS. We don't have rap at our jam sessions. My honey's not as liberal as I am.


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: SeanM
Date: 13 May 99 - 02:27 PM

I agree... to a certain extent. As with all 'popular' music, there's an unfortunately large percentage of 'artists' with little to no talent, and absolutely nothing to commend them by other than a huge pr machine provided by the record label.

I admit to listening to some rap. Ice-T is a very articulate gentleman, who has come out of the scene that he raps about and is disgusted by it. Others unfortunately are just there to make a quick buck by doing numbers that seem to consist of nothing but "gonna kill you, look how big my dick is, shut up 'ho', gimme drugs" (this is the synopsis of a rap song that I did for a class in college. I listened, and that's about all that was there).

In the great generic genre scheme of things, most people won't feel it's folk music. I feel that most of it isn't, but a few select artists are capable of elevating it to that point. Of course, it does require a substantial broadening of the definition according to Capitol Records...

M


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Llanfair
Date: 13 May 99 - 02:44 PM

Folk music is all about the oral tradition, and wether a song has grown and developed over the centuries,like the Robin Hood ballads, got cleaned up by the Victorians to make them acceptable to the middle class drawing room, or created by a modern generation, there are songs that will disappear, and others that will endure. Songs created in my lifetime, Ewan McColl and The Beatles particularly, will go on because people hear them, like them, and sing them. The songs mean something to the people who remember and perform them. I seem to have got a bit carried away, there, but when a song gets to you, wherever it comes from, you can perform it and continue it's life. Hwyl Bron


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Mick Lowe
Date: 13 May 99 - 08:08 PM

Mmmm
An interesting batch of theories/ideas. I started reading this thread with a pre-conceived idea of what I wanted to say in response as to why "young people" abhor folk music.. the trite answer has two parts... in the UK The Spinners and in the US the Clancy Bros.. these people have done more harm to "traditional music" than can be estimated. However we seem to have to define what we mean by "folk music". As we live in a society that is increasingly paranoia in its desire to put things into pigeon holes, we are constantly confronted by examples of be it music, or whatever, that will not conform. I grew up on Simon and Garfunkle, yet would never have considered them folk.. Fairport Convention and Steeleye Span have been with me as long as I care to remember (confession.. I'm 46).. though if I was a purist, you can not call their music as folk.. it might have started out as folk, but once you start adding electric guitars etc it becomes just as "pop" as whoever maybe in the charts...
Or does it? And are the Beatles, now twenty years or so on, likewise S & G, to be considered as folk music? And as Anna says, is Rap music any less folk music than Woody Guthrie or Ralph McTell. I think what Ian really means is why are young people as a whole derisive of "traditional" music/songs.
Apart from the Spinners, you can also blame Aran Jumpers, people singing whilst sticking their fingers in their ears and singing unaccompanied... if you want to be superficial that is. I think Karen hit the nail on the head when she said a lot of it depends upon what musical influences you grow up with. Providing they are fairly diverse, our off spring will come to appreciate the wide spectrum of musical variation, hopefully encompassing "folk" as they do so. Providing there is someone there to continue the tradition and hopefully keep it alive, I trust it will live on.
Mick


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 13 May 99 - 09:27 PM

ML,

What the H-E-double 2 sticks is wrong with the Clancy Brothers? (SEG) You know they've a special place in my heart, especially after meeting them in 1993...

In my adult life I've actually come across lots of (American)folk music in the States and it is the younger crew that is into it.

Now being in the 30-something crowd, as I was growing up I came across lots of groups that would be considered folk (but primarily guitar accompaniment)...drat, my brain is blank for groups...but I was always turned off by the sound of the dulcimer so that segment of folk was never appealing to me...and some of the voices of the women turned me off as well...(I will confess that Sandy Denny's voice is almost boarderline in that category, but I don't mind listening to her recordings.)

But it is true that there are various segments of folk music--and as with "country" that which crosses over on the charts may not be thought of all the time as folk...

Now Mick, I thank you big time for introducing me to a lot more folk music. I really like Steeleye Span followed by Fairport Convention, and others I wasn't familiar with
but
Leave my Clancy Brothers alone (LOL)

That all may not have made sense...I'm fighting with my 18month old for the keyboard...

Mary


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 13 May 99 - 09:33 PM

I neglected to add that alot of college campuses can be a place to find folk music among the young crowd...

After having lived in San Francisco and venturing into Berkley (ours is pronounced Burk-ley) I saw lots of "hippee" wanna-be's and those into the "folk scene"...

I'd love to know why Swing has become so popular again as well!

Mary


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 May 99 - 06:56 PM

I suppose the sad thing is that the music that 'teenagers' (horrible word I know but) have always liked is anything that can be theirs and that their parents will hate. It unfortunately has more to do with culture, than musical appreciation.

The generation that adopted folk music, probably started this. It is hard now, to imagine us old bearded (yes even the ladies) folkies as the young radicals our parents thought we were. The music we chose to identify with already existed and still does. True the more radical strands moved off and were identified more with Dylan's rock, than with the original folk radicals, who were by then beginning to appear quite respectable.

Since then we have had all types of youth movements and their 'music'. The trick is for young people to concentrate on the music rather than identifying with the trappings that accompany the peer group. For the good music always outlasts the fashions and the lifestyles.

The strength of folk music (and dance) is that all ages can participate and contribute together.

Is it really inevitable that our children will hate everything their parents enjoy? Do we make it worse by (unknowingly) excluding them from our social activities? I mean by this, things like licensing laws, age limits and suchlike. They wander about outside our clubs and bars, taking all sorts of strange substances, while we protect them from the perils of alcohol. Is it really such a surprise that they in turn choose music and lifestyles that exclude us?

All our children want, is to join our society, as quickly as possible. We don't make it easy for them, so they create their own.

I fondly remember dances in Shetland, where ALL age groups socialised together. In theory no drink was allowed in the hall, but you tended to 'trip' over the 'half bottles' on entering. A good time was had by all despite the strange licensing laws.


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 14 May 99 - 07:29 PM

I don't quite believe that all our children want is to join our society. I do think they enjoy creating their own, set as far apart as possible from what adults enjoy. But that doesn't stop them (well, some of them ...) from coming back to their parents' tastes later on.
I've often found that the surest way to get them interested is a committed adult able to relate to them. Near me there's a group of 13- to 19-year-olds, about fifteen of them, who sing everything that takes their fancy and have just made their second CD. But I'm quite convinced they wouldn't exist if it wasn't for an adult singer who doesn't appear with them but helps them with their arrangements and generally organises and encourages them. That's great - but there aren't enough like him.
Also, I'm convinced folk's bad reputation has a lot to do with preconceived ideas and outdated prejudices perpetuated in people's minds by the media, among other things. (I've even seen a few instances in this thread ...) If a paper like The Observer can define a folk festival as 'drinking your beer with one finger in your ear' (May '99 - as a joke, but still), what do you expect?
What can we do? I've no recipes. But I would like to mention that my interest in folksongs was started by a schoolteacher who taught us the odd song. It really caught fire when I found one of those songs on an LP on my first visit to Britain 28 years ago. I talked the guy who owned it into selling it to me and never looked back.
Ah yes, and the album was - Mick Lowe will never guess this - by The Spinners. They weren't that bad, after all, although looking back I must agree they simplified things a lot to make them 'palatable' for mass audiences - as did The Clancys, The Corries, and The Dubliners. When they started, folk was the chosen music of a lot of young people! - Susanne


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Mick Lowe
Date: 14 May 99 - 07:32 PM

I agree with you Shambles, it is the culture rather than the music that dare I say adolescents?.. steer towards.. Even an oldie like me can remeber the feelings of "rebellion" as I voyaged through the terrible teens. Heavy Metal was the medium by which I could display my independence and free will over the views expressed by my parents. Luckily I also found Fairport/Steeleye etc at the same time.
I find it extremely amusing that twenty plus years on, I am still "at odds" with my parents over musical taste. They for the life of them can not understand my love of Irish music, which is just another "arm" of my love of folk/traditional call it what you will. Personally I know why I like music with social comment, more so when the medium used to convey it appeals to my love of history.
I believe that once our "young" have identified their place in the scheme of things and perhaps are not so dependant upon the opinions of their peers, they will start to explore all spectrums of music. Providing of course they have inquisitive minds...
Which leads me to a rather radical statement... could it be that those adopting "folk" music are more intelligent than those merely content to listen the porridge spewed out by the "main stream" radio stations ( I can't speak for outside the UK, but anyone here will know what I mean when I say Radio 1... )
Lastly ( i know I've waffled a lot in this thread).. but Mary.. considered yourself "Gotcha'd"... I knew I'd wind you up re the Clancy Bros... in defence I shall say Sassy Lady told me to "slag them off"... and what do you mean about Sandy Denny?.. She had a brilliant voice... LOL
Cheers
Mick


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Mick Lowe
Date: 14 May 99 - 07:39 PM

I know this should really be in a seperate thread.. in fact I was thinking about creating one when I saw this and jumped up on the old soap box... I have been toying with the idea of writing a piece entitled "The Importance of Folk Music in the 21st Century" and was going to ask why Mudcatters what they get from folk music / why they got into it in the first place.
I might still create a seperate thread, but let's sew the first seeds here..
Mick
p.s. Susanne.. dare I ask what the Spinner's track was?


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 14 May 99 - 08:23 PM

Mick, First off, in response to the "Gotcha" here's a BSK! Sassy Lady said that?? And as for Sandy Denny's voice, the slight "raspiness" in, for example, "A Stranger to Himself" is what I am referring to...some other folk singers have it much worse and I can't stand it....but you may just "convert" me...even with the dulcimers!

Now to address the rest of the audience,

I don't know exactly why I grew up liking the kind of music I did...never "got into" a lot of the popular stuff (especially when a teen and college age during the 80's)...guess when I was a kid (around age 6) and heard the Andrew's Sisters sing "Hold Tight" I was hooked on the music my parents and grand parents knew--Big Band, balladeers. Then while rumaging through my Mom's old records I discovered Carmel Quinn singing with Arthur Godfrey and that started my love for Irish music as well...my folks for some reason had a bunch of German and Bavarian records, so I love that music as well, and to familiarize myself with more of my "ethnic heritage" I purchased a couple years ago a Ukrainian folk music cd...Never thought of it as "folk music". I guess I never cared much for the popular stuff enough to buy the albums. So much music out there is lousy! And I didn't mind having such a different musical taste.

"Music of the people"...guess it was really big in the 70's with Simon and Garfunkle, Linda Ronstadt, etc...then the groups like the Four Lads, Brother's Four, Weavers, etc, though I never thought of it as such. Guess the real "folky/folkie" stuff (not sure how to really explain that) was what I had originally termed folk music.

But as with everything, folk music in all varieties is sure to come to the top again...

I think I've said enough...everyone, you can wake up now.

Mary


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: SeanM
Date: 14 May 99 - 08:26 PM

Mick, as much as I'd love to pat myself on the back and say 'Yep, only those who listen to folk are intelligent, and in fact geniuses', I just can't bring myself to do it.

Different people get different things out of the same music. I don't think that just by listening to folk music you can truly set yourself apart, any more than by listening to rap, or rock, or classical. I think that the only thing you can really tell is in regards to the variety they listen to. It takes some people a LOT of effort to set aside cultural differences and 'step outside' of their pre-conceived world and listen to someone else's.

There's something to be said for just about every genre of music out there... there's even more to be said for those willing to experiment across the lines.

M


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 May 99 - 06:51 AM

Susanne said

"I don't quite believe that all our children want is to join our society. I do think they enjoy creating their own, set as far apart as possible from what adults enjoy. But that doesn't stop them (well, some of them ...) from coming back to their parents' tastes later on."

I think you are right in the respect that it is the case now. The point I was trying to make, I think is that this need to form their own sub-cultures is a fairly recent thing and once started, mainly by our refusal to let the young join our society, it was encouraged by the concept of 'teenager's' being a market opportunity. This has now reached crazy proportions, with the designer labels and brand named products, aimed mainly at our young.

My definition of Pop Music: Music made by the young, for the young, to make old people wealthy.

Is it really inevitable that our young reject everything we like?

It may be natural that young people will seek out and feel more comfortable with each other, but does that make it healthy that they have no contact with conventional society at all?


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 16 May 99 - 05:46 PM

It seems to me that before the young had this opportunity to decide for themselves (which, admittedly, can go a lot too far and is doing just this as regards the consumer aspect of 'youth culture') the alternative was not having any childhood at all, looking after the household and younger siblings, getting their first job at thirteen or even earlier than that, and being regarded as little 'grown-ups' in every way. Doesn't seem very desirable to me either.
Admittedly, both concepts are put as absolutes; in the real world, there are a lot of stages in between one extreme or the other, I suppose.
And, yes, Shambles, I tend to think it probably is inevitable that children to some extent reject the values, tastes and opinions of their parents while they are growing up and trying to find their own. If they don't, that may not be a good thing either, as I know from personal experience. - Susanne


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 May 99 - 06:41 PM

Song on the subject here The Only Time That Matters, Is Now.

I suppose I think that if we actually listened to the young point of view more and tried to incorporate those views, the young would feel more part of it and wouldn't have quite so much to reject.


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 99 - 06:52 PM

Decades back I had a letter published in Melody maker pointing out that the reason danceable music (not necessarily disco) was more popular in universities was sex.

Until folk music is seen by the young as a more direct pickup route than other music, folk clubs (including the one I help run) will be dominated by wrinklies like me.

Likewise while society's pecking order influences access to the opposite sex, the young, who have still to obtain rank in that pecking order, will prefer a different society.


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Allan C.
Date: 17 May 99 - 09:28 AM

Mick Lowe, I have just refreshed the thread, "What got you started?" which may be of some help.


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Subject: RE: Folk-bad reputation among the young?
From: Garry of Australia
Date: 18 May 99 - 05:50 AM

I have held an opinion for a long time that one of the reasons that Folk Music does not appeal to the young is because traditional types within the folk genre want it to remain just that, traditional. I go to many festivals in Australia and all I hear is the same boring Irish and Celtic Tunes. If you suggest amplification or fusing various other styles of music into folk, your are immediately labelled (by the Folk Police) as doing folk music a disservice and you are in league with the devil. I am of the opinion that in order to attract the young we have to relate to them and for this to happen folk music must become progressive and not regressive. It must move on and have life breathed into it and not locked in a time warp.


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