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BS: Obama LOVES Bush
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Subject: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: GUEST,Guest Date: 12 Feb 08 - 08:13 PM ...so much he voted FOR the Protect America Act today & AGAINST the Dodd/Feingold amendment, that would not have granted immunity to the telecom industry for syping on Americans. "When companies break the law, they should be held accountable by our government -- not given a multimillion-dollar favor," said Caroline Fredrickson, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Washington Legislative Office. "The millions of Americans who are telecom customers deserve to know that their phone conversations are private." Obama voted w/16 other conservative Democrats, who joined with all 49 Republicans (including McCain) in the Senate. Clinton didn't vote. But sure, Obama is a liberal, just like all you Mudcat Blue Dogs.
Since you have been posting in a civil tone and quite consistently as Guest, Guest, I have condoned your posting for quite some time. Today, you posted many messages anonymously and under other names, and you were back to your old combative style. All those messages posted under other names were deleted. Please remember that this is a discussion forum, not a battleground. Oh - and note that in the FAQ it says that if you're starting more than one thread a day, you're probably starting too many. Take heed. -Joe Offer, a Mudcat Yeller Dog- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: Peace Date: 12 Feb 08 - 08:21 PM Well, SOMEone has to--love Bush that is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: Amos Date: 12 Feb 08 - 08:22 PM That's disappointing indeed, Janet -- almost as disappointing as your relapse into vitriol. Sigh. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Feb 08 - 08:43 PM Is that who GUEST,guest is, Amos? Mick's old pal? I know we have a couple of banned malcontents skirting around the edges. I did wonder. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: GUEST,Guest Date: 12 Feb 08 - 08:53 PM You can't be too sure about that now, SRS. There are a few of us Guest Guests masquerading around right now. Some members, some guests. Can you tell which is which? But that doesn't mean anything anyway. There is no vitriol here. It is all quite polite and civilized. So, where's the beef? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 12 Feb 08 - 09:22 PM I don't see any problem with granting immunity to someone who may have misstepped because he was following what he thought to be a legal order from an agent of the US federal government. It's not up to people who are ordered to do something by the authorities to determine whether the authorities are or are not acting within the law. Federal agents don't play nice. They don't ask politely. They expect to be obeyed. If not, they can arrange for a wide variety of unpleasant occurences. One phone call to their friends over at the IRS and your tax returns for the last seven years get audited. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: Peace Date: 12 Feb 08 - 09:22 PM Tell me NOW! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: Peace Date: 12 Feb 08 - 09:23 PM Like, uh, do you mean EVERY YEAR for the past SEVEN? Keriste . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: GUEST,Guest Date: 12 Feb 08 - 09:25 PM Yeah bee-dubya-ell, we've heard those sorts of rationalizations used as a defense before. I believe it was the Nazis at Nuremburg. That, "we were only following orders" thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: Charley Noble Date: 12 Feb 08 - 09:26 PM Gigi or Janet- We can never be certain of anyone here, even our members. There really is no such person as Charley Noble but you probably already know that and don't even care... Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 12 Feb 08 - 09:36 PM Well, the alternative to immunity would be having numerous trials at tremendous expense, all of which would result in acquitals since no jury in the US is going to convict a private citizen for doing what he was ordered to do by a federal agent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: pdq Date: 12 Feb 08 - 09:37 PM concerning O'Bama... "Someone who is all things to all people is nothing to anyone." ~ me |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: GUEST,Guest Date: 12 Feb 08 - 09:44 PM These aren't private citizens being given immunity. This is Sprint Nextel and AT & T. HUGE difference. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: Riginslinger Date: 12 Feb 08 - 09:55 PM I'm sorry. None of this makes any sense to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: Amos Date: 12 Feb 08 - 10:40 PM . It's not up to people who are ordered to do something by the authorities to determine whether the authorities are or are not acting within the law. Federal agents don't play nice. They don't ask politely. They expect to be obeyed. If not, they can arrange for a wide variety of unpleasant occurences. One phone call to their friends over at the IRS and your tax returns for the last seven years get audited. Unfortunately this was the exact type of defense raised during the Nuremburg trials. Being ordered to break the law, and doing so, is still breaking the law. While this makes it tough on individual conscience, it is the only rational position to take if you are to have a rule of law, rather than a rule of Unary Executive bullying. In the final analysis, orders are not above law, and the individual citizen has to answer to his own conscience and the law. Forgiving them, because it was ordered by the same agency, in broad, as is doing the forgiving, is just convenient as all hell. I can only pray that Obama stands for better standards when he becomes President. I'd be interested to hear his rationalization for this call, which I find disappointing, as I already said. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: George Papavgeris Date: 12 Feb 08 - 10:41 PM ...and...? What's the point of all this? Is it your way of saying "vote for Clinton"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: Ebbie Date: 12 Feb 08 - 10:51 PM "Seventeen Democrats and one independent joined 49 Republicans in voting against the Dodd-Feingold amendment." "Approval of the amendment would have exposed the companies to privacy lawsuits for helping the administration monitor the calls of suspected terrorists without warrants from a special court following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. ************** "Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.), who is battling for the Democratic nomination,voted in favor of the amendment. His chief rival, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), did not vote. What??? Did Obama vote in favor of the amendment that would have held the telecom companies at risk? Somebody is full of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: Amos Date: 12 Feb 08 - 11:06 PM By gawd, yer right, Ebbie. The record is the reverse of what Gigi was wrought up about. I withdraw my disappointment whole heartedly. :D A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: Ebbie Date: 12 Feb 08 - 11:09 PM Right. And it says a good deal about her judgment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: number 6 Date: 12 Feb 08 - 11:35 PM No confusion whatsoever .... Obama vote for the ammendment that would strip away immunity to telcos that illegally taped phone lines. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: GUEST,The Old Philosopher Date: 12 Feb 08 - 11:49 PM Bill Clinton loved Bush a little too much for his own good, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: Ebbie Date: 12 Feb 08 - 11:53 PM Guest: "Obviously we have a lot of "let's make Guest Guest look bad" threads going on tonight, don't we Ebbie Guest Guest?" Don't even have to try. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: mrdux Date: 13 Feb 08 - 12:02 AM Without any particular axe to grind -- I was a Kucinich fan, myself -- the answer is found at the US Senate website. At issue was S. 2248, the administration's FISA revision bill. It seems that Obama did in fact vote for the Dodd/Feingold amendment stripping away immunity from telcoms (number 00015); he voted against cloture (00019); and did not vote on the final version of the bill (00020). He voted for some of the other amendments but didn't cast a vote on some of the others. Clinton didn't vote on the amendment, the cloture or the final bill (or, apparently, on any of the other proposed amendments to the bill). Please continue. michael |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: number 6 Date: 13 Feb 08 - 12:09 AM OK ... his stand (vote) on immunity to the telecoms is clear Clarification reguired ... what is, cloture (00019)? biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: mrdux Date: 13 Feb 08 - 12:18 AM Cloture is a motion to stop debate and proceed to a vote. In this particular case, the cloture motion was made by the proponents of the administration bill to stop all that amending, stop all that debating and just vote on the president's bill. If you tend to judge politicians by the company they keep, run down the list of senators voting against cloture: you'll find 28 D's (including Obama) and the one I (good ol' Bernie Sanders) and nary a single R. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: number 6 Date: 13 Feb 08 - 12:22 AM Clarification found ... cloture (00019) is the motion to Invoke Cloture Re. S. 2248; FISA Amendments Act of 2007 ... which is a bill to ammend the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (to modernize and streamline the provisions of that Act, and for other purposes.) so ... in short Obama voted against that biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: number 6 Date: 13 Feb 08 - 12:23 AM Thanx for that explanation mrdux. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama LOVES Bush From: mrdux Date: 13 Feb 08 - 12:28 AM Any time. michael |