Origins: 10,000 Miles

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: GUEST,Howard G
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 09:02 PM

I can't help with the origin of this song.

But I would like to highlight that a beautiful version of Turtle Dove can also be found on "Olde English Madrigals & Folk Songs at Ely Cathedral," by John Rutter and the Cambridge Singers.

Rutter scores a very short version of the song (5 verses, no chorus), but it is gorgeously sung.

Also on the album are other madrigals by Greaves, Morley, Weekles, etc., as well as British traditionals such as "I Love My Love" and "Bushes and Briars." Rutter also put out two choral score books for all the songs on the album, which are very handy.

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 12:06 PM

Bryn, in the USA it picks up verses from "Lonesome Dove," "Blackest Crow," "My Dearest Dear," etc, to become "A-Rovin' on a Winter's Night."

I do think the song, as it exists in tradition, is a mass of floating verses, which Bruce disagrees with on the other thread. I will grant that it retains a core of the 1690 broadside in many cases. However, this is really just a matter of perception.   If you have enough verses from that broadside, you'll call it a version of "10,000 Miles," and if you have fewer verses from the broadside but more from elsewhere, you'll call it something else--maybe "The Blackest Crow." Songs exist in tradition with many verses from the broadside, and they exist with few verses from there. The point is that, like all lyric songs, this song-family is expressing emotion more than it is telling a story. Because of that, it can include any verse that expresses the same or related essential emotions. "I love you and I'll miss you" are pretty well covered in tradition, so it can include a wide variety of verses.

For my folklore courses at universities, I've put together a compilation of versions that I play for my class, slowly turning "My Dearest Dear" into Burns's "My Love is Like a Red Red Rose," even though the beginning and ending songs share no actual verses. I use it to demonstrate this quality of lyric folksong as a pool of verses to choose from, as well as a pool of "set songs." Ballads tend to be much more set, because of the need to tell a story.

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 10:42 AM

Erm, I see that there is.

(well, you DO feel a fool . . . )

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 10:00 AM

Is there an American 'version', or perhaps a cognate, "Mary Ann" ?

O fare thee well , my own dear love.
Fare thee well a while
My ship lies waiting the next flowing tide
And I must go far away to sea, Mary Ann(bis)

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: GUEST,irishenglish
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 07:34 AM

Malcolm, and every one else thank you!

Steve-was not discussing who has performed it, was discussing its origins. I am fully aware of the other situation, thank you.

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 11:34 PM

In the earlier thread Kitty indicated, the late Bruce Olson quoted a London broadside of the late 17th century, 'The Unkind Parents', which is an early ancestor of this group of songs. That isn't too bad as the beginning of an answer, surely? More detail can be seen in Steve Gardham's article at the Musical Traditions website:

The Turtle Dove.

The song reappeared in the 18th century, rather shortened and closer to the kinds of forms it was found in later, as the broadside ballad 'The true lover's farewel', which is directly ancestral to traditional examples found in such places as Dorset and the Appalachians. There was, incidentally, a tradition in the Traill family of Orkney that their ancestor, Colonel Thomas Traill, wrote the original song in the earlier 17th century; but there are many such family traditions, and usually no evidence (as is the case here) to support them.

Originally an English song, in view of the available evidence; though Scotland may not be quite out of the running. Irish? No, though of course forms of it have been found in tradition there, as also in pretty well every country where English is spoken. I'm talking about the text here; there are many tunes associated with this song family, and they would be the subject for a different (and much more technical) discussion, I think.

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 08:08 PM

How can you think about 10,000 Miles and not think about Nic Jones and not lament the fact that we can't have it! Go there!

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 04:03 PM

Doc John, Kitty, Ah, I see! I've heard about that dispute before, so I understand.

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 03:42 PM

Doc John's right - don't go there. (See threads on Nic Jones and Celtic Music if you're mystified by the asterisks.)

Kitty

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 03:38 PM

Doc John-?

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 03:38 PM

The version published in Marrowbones combines versions collected from 3 different singers - Mrs Satin, Corscombe, July 1906, Joseph Taunton, Corscombe, August 1907, and additional verses from Mrs Marina Russell, Upwey, February 1907. All in Dorset, though.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 03:37 PM

Well according to scholars, some of these songs do have definite origins in one place or the other, while some are so far travelled that it is impossible to tell its true origins. If 10,000 Miles is one of the latter, so be it, I was merely curious!

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: Doc John
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 03:19 PM

Don't mention D*** B**m**!

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 03:12 PM

Well, it's just idle specualtion.
How do you judge 'Irishness', 'Englishness', Scottishness' etc.? All we know is that it was collected in Dorset. No reason not to suppose it's English.

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 02:59 PM

Q-is it your sole mission to have every thread combined? As stated above, I read the entire previous thread, and other than what Kitty says about the 1906 Dorset version, there is no direct answer to my original question, so unless you can give me that answer, why are you so annoyed? And I don't think one version collected in 1906 is a definitive answer to my question.

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:42 PM

'Origins'? All in the earlier thread, with which this should be combined or closed.

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 09:25 AM

Cheers, Diane. I have all the Nic Jones recordings it's possible to have these days. I have Ballads and Noah's on an ancient cassette copied from another ancient cassette copied from scratchy vinyl. It's infinitely better than not having it but I want to hear this stuff without feeling angry every time I put it on.

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 03:15 AM

. . . and a reminder of what else you can't get:

Ballads & Songs: Sir Patrick Spens; Butcher & The Tailor's Wife; Duke of Marlborough; Annan Water; Noble Lord Hawkins; Don't You Be Foolish Pray; Outlandish Knight; Reynard the Fox; Little Musgrave

Nic Jones: Lass of London City; Napoleon's Lamentation; Bonny Bunch of Roses; Edward; Outlandish Knight; William and Nancy's Parting; Lord Bateman; Dance To Your Daddy; Two Brothers; Banks of Green Willow.

Noah's Ark Trap: Wanton Seed; Jackie Tar; Ten Thousand Miles; Golden Glove; Indian Lass; Miles Weatherhill; Isle of France; Crockery Ware; Annachie Gordon

and all the rest of it.

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 02:47 AM

There is a live version of Nic Jones doing 10,000 Miles on Unearthed available direct from Mollie Music.

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 07:00 PM

I think it was on Noah's Ark Trap. I have it on a ropey old cassette. This version of this song, above everything, belongs to the world. Can we all have it back, please?

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 06:42 PM

Coope, Boyes and Simpson do a lovely version on their cd Hindsight.

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 06:23 PM

irishenglish - the Turtledove version in Marrowbones was collected in Dorset in 1906.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: irishenglish
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 06:05 PM

Herga Kitty, thank you but I did look at that thread before posting. Other than going through the various variants of the song, I am still left with my original question though!

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 05:59 PM

You could try looking at this earlier thread

Kitty

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: irishenglish
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 05:49 PM

Well, I'll let that one go, but could also mention Altan and Mary Chapin Carpenter, as well as the Nic Jones version, and the others escape me right now.

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 05:47 PM

It's because you mentioned the appalling versions by Ms Carthy as opposed to the sublime ones by Nic Jones I suppose... ;-)

Subject: RE: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: irishenglish
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 05:38 PM

No takers?

Subject: Origins: 10,000 Miles
From: GUEST,irishenglish
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 02:55 PM

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but what's the feeling of people on here as to where 10,000 Miles comes from. I have more versions of this than I count (3 by Eliza Carthy alone!), as well as Irish and American versions, as well as being in books as well. So is it an Irish, or English song? Or is it one of those everyone claims it sort of songs!