legal aspects of kicking out the drummer

Subject: Kick out the drummer: the law
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 11:48 PM

The group in question is not a folk group, but the questions raised should be of concern to folk groups. The remaining members of Mental As Anything have been ordered to pay compensation to their drummer for throwing him out of the band. Details at ABC News

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 11:53 PM

After 30 years, they might have found a better way to deal with the situation. Obviously the NSWIRC agreed.

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 12:55 AM

Australian law may not be the same as others.

In the UK the analogous provisions would probably only apply if the muso was an "employee".

In most cases a band will be a partneship, and a partnership can be determined upon notice.

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 12:57 AM

Partnership in the US is legally between two people & only two people as far as I understand it

Barry

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:23 AM

I'd be very surprised, Barry.

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:26 AM

Ah-hah!

http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/partnership.html

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:28 AM

When I ran my construction company apartnership was 2 & that's as many as could legally controll the company with no need for worker's comp. Some time ago & different conditions I guess

Barru

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:29 AM

You got me Richard

Barry

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Anglo
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 03:06 AM

Well, he got $12K in the settlement. Can you actually sue anybody and have it cost you less than that?

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 03:39 AM

Where's weelittle? Hope they haven't sacked him!

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 03:48 AM

So, is a legal firm with several hundred 'partners' a different meaning of parnter?

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 03:55 AM

Well, if it was the UK he would have made an application to an employment tribunal. Those were set up to enable both workers and management to run cases pretty informally without lawyers. Nowadays lawyers are pretty commonplace there, but unless your case turns on an issue of law they are not really necessary.

Often the management will be represented by their human resources manager and the worker by a rep from his trade union.

There is however a burgeoning class of barrack room lawyers who hire out as "employment consultants". They sell "packages" to employers including a set of emplyment contracts, a so called "employment handbook" including a bunch of rules for workers, and also handle the dismissal process in general - and fight the employment tribunal cases.

THe last such handbook I checked for a client was good on the bells and whistles that are specific to employment law but utterly useless on the vital parts (for that employer) of employee inventions and obligations of confidentiality, non-solicitation and non-competition.

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 04:27 AM

I always favour tipping 'em the black spot!

Deposed! matey
arrrrrgh!

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 06:05 AM

That wouldn't, by any chance, have been an outfit in Manchester (Salford), would it, Richard ?

'Rejoicing' in the name of Paelnuinsn (anag.) ?

If so, I could tell you some tales . . .

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 06:22 AM

Getting rid of the drummer is always the kiss of death to a rock group. Look what happened to the Beatles after they ditched Pete Best.

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 07:04 AM

Bryn, how did you guess?

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 08:04 AM

This legal action was nothing compared to the Audubon String Quartet debacle--the first violinist was fired with no warning, and filed a lawsuit, in the end, the quartet members lost their homes, instruments, and retirement funds which were sold in order to settle the $600,000 judgement.

NY Times Article on Audubon String Quartet

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 08:51 AM

What is said there would be at most partly compatible with English partnership law. Clearly the decision must have been that there was a partnership, since there was no incorporation. The term "director" is therefore a misnomer. Any partner can dissolve a partnership (in UK law) at any time without prior notice.

The other partners can of course then re-form into a fresh partnership if they so wish.

However the partnership assets cannot be used or exploited without the consent of the (former) partnership and any partner so doing woudl have to account (in the winding up of the parntership) for any benefit so derived.

The really maverick element here seems to have been the judicial valuation of goodwill (and, insofar as different, the value of the name). On a dissolution of a partnership (UK law) if, when the assets have been valued and the creditors all paid, there is a surplus, that is treated as profit and is to be shared amongst the partners (unless the partnership agreement says differently, which in this case it didn't because it seems there was no express partnership agreement) equally.

How that process could have produced this apparent outcome for the string quartet is puzzling. The forward income stream largely vanished with the quartet as a quartet, so a massive valuation for the goodwill would be wrong in principle.

But maybe US partnership law differs.

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 11:30 AM

Well, he got $12K in the settlement. Can you actually sue anybody and have it cost you less than that?

Maybe that was all that was left once the legal team took their cut?

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's legal Apprentice
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 11:35 AM

"This legal action was nothing compared to the Audubon String Quartet debacle--the first violinist was fired with no warning, and filed a lawsuit, in the end, the quartet members lost their homes, instruments, and retirement funds which were sold in order to settle the $600,000 judgement."

Well t'as bin said many a time that the U.S is the most litigious country in the world (you lookat me like that and I'll sue you!)

Charlotte (here come da judge)

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Ernest
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:34 PM

Well, Charlotte (comments in bracketts)

a lawyers paradise for re-litigous people so to say.

Regards

Ernest-at-law

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 06:10 PM

I thought that I'd posted this link twice before, but it isn't here--so here it is again--and, if there is a question about relevance, judicial rulings on a similar case are always important--

Rulings and Documents in the Audubon String Quartet Action

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 08:55 PM

Maybe the $12,000 was compensation for the "kicking out" cause of action. If they had simply showed the drummer to the door, gave him a farewell hug, it might have gone down better. Something to think about, the next time you want to get rid of a bandmate.

They shoot horses, so they say. That's another option. You ever hear of a dead horse suing anyone?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 09:02 PM

The horse's estate can sue. Furthermore, it could probably recover more than the living horse could have, since the fact that the horse was dead is pretty clear evidence that irreversible harm was done.

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Ernest
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 01:56 AM

Also shooting horses won`t help selling your products to teenage girls...

;0)
Ernest@law

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 03:22 PM

Don't he legal aspects depend on which country the plane is flying over when you kick the drummer out?
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Peace
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 04:09 PM

"Getting rid of the drummer is always the kiss of death to a rock group. Look what happened to the Beatles after they ditched Pete Best."

LOL

Good one. VERY good.

My chuckle for the day.

Subject: RE: legal aspects of kicking out the drummer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 05:34 PM

And Status Quo when John Coghlan left.