Tudor Barn Eltham Closure

Subject: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 04:16 AM

The Tudor Barn is to close on 24th February 2008. Greenwich Council are refusing to allow the premises to be used as a pub any longer. This venue has been the home of FOLKMOB for 12 years. This is devestating news to a lot of people who have enjoyed attending/playing at this fantastic venue over the years. The Club was given no advance warning of this we were just casually informed by one of the barstaff. We will not be going down without a fight. So please can anybody who wants to support us, write to your MP, Greenwich council, the press - anything that can help.

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 04:34 AM

Are you able to tell us why it is being closed? It might be of help.

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 06:59 AM

The lease was up and Greenwich just decided that they don't want to renew it! Nothing to do with the current landlord. There were several people in the bidding for the lease. A group of busybodies called "Freinds Of Well Hall" also objected to the building being used as a pub! So now it will be boarded up and probably vandalised.

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 07:08 AM

Remember Brixton Bert's wake there, organised by the late Dave Bryant? A great occasion in a very suitable venue.

Draft letter that anyone can use follows: -

To: Greenwich Council
Town Hall
Wellington Street,
Woolwich,
SE18 6PW

Dear SIrs

I understand that you are the owners of the Tudor Barn in Well Hall Pleasance. It is at present run mostly as a pub.    It is possibly one of the finest medieval buildings still standing in South East London. I am told that you plan to close it entirely and board it up.

That would be a remarkable act of irresponsibility. As the experience of the Cutty Sark shows, it is hard to keep a facility that is not in constant use secure from vandalism. If the Tudor Barn is simply boarded up it will of course at once become a target for dossers and vandals, and sooner or later be burnt down. That would be a huge loss to the amentiy of the neighbourhood.

It is, in practical terms, essential that a sympathetic use is found for the building to preserve it for future generations.

I should be grateful to hear from you wth satisfactory assurances

Yours faithfully


[name]

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: My guru always said
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 07:22 AM

Thanks Richard! It would be dreadful to lose this venue, lets keep this thread up near the top!

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 08:24 AM

It is always advisable to look beyond one's own special interest and seek out the readily available facts before composing angry letters about 'boarding up'. The Tudor Barn is not just a folk venue, it is also one of the most important historic buildings in the borough of Greenwich. The beautiful garden has recently had a lot of money spent on a stunning restoration by the Heritage Lottery Fund and the council itself.

I have no great love for Greenwich borough council, but they are unlikely to allow such a huge investment waste away and if they were stupid enough to do so, those 'busybodies', the Friends of Well Hall would be first at the barricades.

It has been reported in some detail in the the press that the present licensee wished to assign his lease to someone else, a perfectly normal business transaction. The council considered refusing and taking the barn back into their own management but, in the event, decided to allow the assignment.

I don't know who the new lessee is and he/she/they could, of course, turn out to be unfriendly to the Mob, but we don't know that yet, do we?

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 08:30 AM

The information about boarding up comes (I am told) not simply from inference but from a person (no names, no pack drill) close to the pub closure - and my draft letter of course was framed in no way referring to folk music but to the importance of teh building.

The information I received was that also the council refused to permit any further use as a pub.

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,Essex Girl
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 09:01 AM

The issue of 'boarding up' came from the present incumbent of the Tudor Barn. We were fully aware that the lease was going to be assigned some time this year, but were not given notice until this Tuesday. The folk club is not the only group to use the barn. It is frequently used for weddings and birthday parties, and has the cajun barn dances once a month. This venue could prove an excellent asset for the council if they were to manage it wisely. Of course as a committee member of folk mob we are upset that we are losing this great venue, but a major concern is that if it is allowed to stand empty for any length of time it will be vandalised like other empty buildings in the vicinity - (The Welcome Inn & the cinema).

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 09:10 AM

Billy Weeks, where does your info come from? There is no new lessee. The present licence holder did want to transfer the licence but the council refused and the building will no longer be used as a pub! You say it was widely reported, where?

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 09:29 AM

I have been to enjoyable family parties at this excellent venue, and would be very worried if it was to pack up operating. But we seem to be getting diametrically opposite sets of facts in this thread, so who is right? Shutting down and boarded up, or thriving with new landlord?

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,Andy Cakebread
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 10:37 AM

I've just been looking at the minutes of the group mentioned above, The Friends of Well Hall Pleasaunce (www.wellhall.org.uk). They mention that, since their start a couple of years ago, they've had friendly meetings with the Council's Parks people.

Their minutes note (25/6/07, 8b) that councillors were lobbied about a change of use away from 'pub' and to 'cafe/food' with an accent on children. Also, (29/10/07, 2) they noted that they had been notified by Chris Roberts (no job specified) that the Council had been asked to assign the lease & that references had been supplied.

The information I have from the current landlord is that (a) whatever it reopens as, it will not be a pub and (b) that his current licence is probably flexible enough to allow for restaurant use.

Like Woodsie, I've seen no report at all in the press concerning this matter - Billy, could you point us at the relevalt paper?

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 12:47 PM

Thanks for the additional info, Andy, which confirms my feeling that the Friends are keeping a close eye on these moves.

The report I read (I didn't say it was 'widely' reported, woodsie) was in the current issue of the local magazine 'Senine' - it means postcode SE9 - (sorry - the mag has been recycled!) which gave the facts about the assignment in a bit less detail than Andy gives.

I can understand that a folk club might be uneasy about a move from pub to a less boozy atmosphere (if that is happening for sure), but I can't see that the council can be accused of anything but dealing with a lawful request that any lessee is free to make.

I was interested to hear that the talk of 'boarding up' comes from the present incumbent who, presumably, was the one who set the assignment process in train. Don't know what to make of that.

Provided the new lessee, of whom I know nothing, runs the place in an orderly manner with proper respect for this rare and precious building (and, as to that, we can only watch and wait) I can't see what one can object to.

I agree, Essex Girl, that a vacant building is open to vandalism and we do, as you say, have at least two horrible examples in this area. But we haven't reached that point yet. It would certainly be sensible to press the council to say precisely what provision they will make to ensure that no unguarded period occurs between the two occupations, since this will be the time of maximum risk. If they fail to cover that risk, then the council could reasonably be accused of dereliction of duty. But allowing or not allowing a change of use (whatever that may mean for the Mob) is not per se a cause for criticism.

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:01 PM

Every paragraph on the Well Hall website emphasises over and over about how The Friends are working VERY closely with the local council and how "family orientated" they are.

the final paragraph in their Aims reads.

"To promote harmony within the community and to actively work against all forms of discrimination within it so that no one is disadvantaged by reason of ethnicity, gender, disability, sexual orientation, age, class, income, employment status or religious belief."

it all speakes volumes...you can have a good time but only under OUR conditions.

Charlotte (and that's the way I see it)

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,Sue
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 04:22 AM

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 07:42 AM

A glimmer of hope according to the following message just posted by Sue Forde on Folkmob website:

I have been trying to leave a message on the Tudor Barn closure thread on mudcat but for some reason it won't send. So I'll post it here. I had a call from Peter T. yesterday whose friend was at the Barn on Wednesday evening, she was so impressed by our set up and how we run it that she got on the phone the next morning and managed to speak to some executive in the council (I think she has contacts) and she was told that, yes the Barn will be closing for a short period of time, it won't be opening again as a pub but the council want to keep it as a venue for the community. The guy said that they are aware of us (Folkmob) and what we do and the friend said that he intimated that they want us to continue there. Peter has given us the name and phone number of this council guy and Mick is going to try and speak to him today. We are also sending a letter registering our interest in remaining at the barn and asking to be involved in any further discussions regarding the future of the building. If I hear anything else I will let you know. Sue

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 07:47 AM

I know of the song "Pub with no beer", but "Folk club with no beer"?

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 09:16 AM

Easy on the cocoa dave ...

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: billybob
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 09:17 AM

I started to read this thread with great sadness, not only did we hold Brixton Bert's wake there ( thanks to Dave Bryant) but we also celebrated Dave's life with a wonderful day of music and memories.
I first sang at the Tudor Barn with Dave in the 70's and if we did not live such a long way away I am sure we would have joined the Folkmob. I do hope all will end well and that this wonderful building will remain open and in safe hands!As for a folk club without any beer, if it is a private club and no money changes hands cannot you be allowed to "bring a bottle?"
Wendy

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 11:36 AM

Here is a message from Dave Baxter:

Contacted Greenwich Council this afterrnoon and spoke to Mike Gaston of the Licensing Section. He had no information about what was happening with the lease but said that he would contact the Business Properties Section of the Council. He came back to me to say that Grenwich Council are buying back the lease of the Tudor Barn and that the intention is to put it to some other use (not a public house). The impression I got was that someone has a plan although no information has been released to the public as yet.

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: Dead Horse
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 11:59 AM

This venue also holds monthly dances as "Cajun Barn" and is one of the few places in this country which hosts visiting bands from Louisiana, as well as some very good local (British) and European musicians.
The only other venue accessible from the south is Cecil Sharp House, which, in my humble opinion, is nowhere near as good as Tudor Barn.
As a comical aside, I should like to mention that more than one musician from across the pond refers to this place as "The Two-door Barn" and actually believed that was its proper name, albeit with some peculiar english spelling!

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 12:06 PM

"if it is a private club and no money changes hands cannot you be allowed to "bring a bottle?"

best to check the licensing laws on that one, I think.

Charlotte (more coffee)

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 09:21 AM

Greenwich now have the lease back and a plan that they are not making public.

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 09:36 AM

This is sheer cultural vandalism.

And these "Friends" just sound like a bunch of hypocrites: "...to actively work against all forms of discrimination" - except against people who like to have a pint of beer when they are meeting with mates and maybe singing a few songs.

Doing stuff like that is very much part of the tradition of my ethnic group.

The Tudor Barn one of the best folk venues I know, and one of the best pubs. I remember Dave Bryant's wake there - a wonderful occasion.

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 10:18 AM

Chris Roberts who Andy mentions in his post is the LEADER of Greewich Council. I have just emailed him with my concerns please can others who wish to support us do the same email Chris Roberts

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 11:35 AM

"it won't be opening again as a pub but the council want to keep it as a venue for the community."

folk clubs included? I suspect so. The only problem, for some, that I see, is the fact that no beer will be sold

Charlotte (watching, waiting and not panicing)

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 11:40 AM

Depends on whether the council obtains a PEL for the premises, and why would they?

G

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: Girl Friday
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 06:43 PM

Is it better to send the letter or email Greenwich Council? Should one do both?

The Tudor Barn is a great building and should be kept open, and used by the people of Greenwich. Rarely does one find such a large room, such a welcoming place. Folk Mob is by far the largest and best attended Folk Club in the S.E. London Area.Recent reports have 52 singers attending on one night. The wakes for Brixton Bert and Dave Bryant would have been difficult to hold anywhere else, due to the sheer number of performers, friends and relatives that attended.
What would prevent the Folk Mob from "Bringing Their Own?"

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 02:14 AM

Folkmob have not been granted use of the building - as mentioned above, If the council does eventually allow us use, then the venue would require a new Public Entertainment Licence and subscription to Performing Rights Society (This was paid by current Landlord). You can email The Council Leader using the link in my last thread.

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 05:29 AM

It would need a licence under the Licensing Act for booze and/or regulated entertainment or entertainment facilities (and it might need one for the food bits too, I have never bothered about that part of teh Licensing Act) but technically it is not a PEL, and if you write to the head of a council no doubt he will play dumb on purpose and tell you that there is no such thing as a PEL or a need for one any more - so if you do write to the council don't fall into this trap.

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 10:01 AM

This is a quote from Councillor Spencer Drury

"I did note that an item related to the Well Hall Plesaunce was on the agenda for Cabinet Committee approximately one month ago and attended the meeting and spoke on the item. Unfortunately the Council has chosen to place the discussion under a confidential classification so I cannot describe the exact details of what was discussed or indeed what the Council's proposals are." This is from an email received today!

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 03:24 AM

I'm planning to come to your last night Woodsie, work pressures permitting, and am working on some songs you will absolutely hate!

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,The Barden of England at work
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:01 AM

Perhaps my reading of the 2003 act is wrong, but I thought it was a Premises Licence and as such it will still be licensed including the part for the provision of music.

John Barden

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:51 AM

I think the Licence is held by the Licensee - and there won't be one!

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,Martin Guha
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 05:08 AM

I hadn't seen a draft petition, so I mailed this off to Greenwich Council:




Dear Sir

        Re:        TUDOR BARN, Eltham

        I am very concerned to hear that Greenwich Council is proposing to close the pub being run in the Tudor Barn. This seems to me to be a very worrying decision on several counts.

        I am personally concerned at the loss of the venue for the Greenwich Folk Club which has been singing there for many years. There is a shortage of cultural activities in the Eltham area. This has been one of the very few community foci in the district and ought to be encouraged. The council actively funds other arts organisations. The Folkmob does not need funding, it just needs a venue.

        I am also very concerned at the likelihood of vandalism. The fact that this historic building has been in use in the evenings has undoubtedly helped prevent vandalism. Closed buildings attract trouble of this sort, which will then spread through the rest of the Pleasaunce. The short-sighted decision to close an evening venue is likely to severely damage the position of the Pleasaunce as an oasis in a deprived area of the Borough.

        I would be grateful for a prompt assurance that you are reconsidering this decision.

                                Yours sincerely


                                                        




Chief Executive's Complaints Officer
Town Hall
Wellington St
Woolwich
SE18 6PW

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,The Barden of England at work
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 06:47 AM

Hi Woodsie - The DCMS site here:- http://www.culture.gov.uk/what_we_do/Alcohol_entertainment/licensing_act_2003_explained/ will help explain it. There is no such thing as a Licensee any more as the premises is what is licensed. OK, the alcohol bit would need a Designated Premises Supervisor, but the act doesn't actually state that one is needed for Music. Anyway, the fact is that it's the premises that has the license, not an individual. Hope this helps. By the way it's a travesty what is happening to the FOLKMOB, you are a great bunch of people who run a fantastic club.

John Barden

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: Lady Raffles
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 08:32 AM

Thanks John

that all sounds very promising, I think that as long as we can return to the Barn when it opens again if not as a pub then hopefully as a venue for the use of the community, then the booze thing will fall into place, you couldn't have Folkmob without something to oil the wheels and tonsils. We just need to find somewhere to keep going in the interim period, but I'm sure we will and Folkmob will definitely keep on going, after all it's our 20th anniversary in 2013

Sue

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,Essex Girl
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 08:32 AM

We are holding a general meeting tonight at the Tudor Barn from 7pm. All interested parties are encouraged to attend. Also it would be great to see as many people there on Wednesday for our 'last night' at this venue - at least for a while.
Linda

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,rock chick
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 08:50 AM

Hi, I have been following this thread, if i was down South i would attend this evening, however i am now living up in Scotland.

Do keep me up to date guys on where you will be moving to, if at all, and hopefully not. I have spent many a Wednesday at the Tb and venues before with you wondeful people. When i am down your way i will be popping along, to where ever you guys, are to catch up with you all and maybe, just maybe play some music again.

Shelagh, or as mick , Alas woodsie, would call me Big She....... although i am far from BIG ;-))

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 12:11 PM

I have just received an email from councillor Dermot Poston and I quote him

"I am at one with your cause and will do all I can to help"

We will have to keep a tally of councillors for and against!

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 05:22 PM

There were about 100 people at the meeting tonight Folkies, regulars, residents, cajun barnies & press. I think we made a very good case to the Council's "culture department" spokesman John Fahey (No not that one)There was nobody there from the "friends of ..." It was made clear that the TB would be boarded up om 25th February, but this would apparently be temporary while they decided what to do next!

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,Hershey Bar
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 12:51 AM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,The Big T
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 04:36 AM

Sorry I missed the meeting I have only just found the thread.
I think its a case of the Council being (as usual) shortsighted in their dealings with organisations such as the Folk Mob. They only care for to be seen doing something when a load of busy bodies such as the friends of well hall get involved or should I say put their oars in.We can but hope. After all it was the Folk Mob where I started to perform again.
Thanks for all the good times.

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,em
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:33 AM

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:30 AM

Would that be the Big T Bruce?

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,Essex Girl
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:37 AM

John Fahey has stated that he will be offering us and the cajun dance an alternative venue while they decide what to do with the barn. They are holding a council meeting next week to review the options, so if anyone has any ideas about how they would like the barn to be used please inform the council.

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: Lady Raffles
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:12 AM

Just received an email from John Fahy Cabinet Member, he says -
"I am very mindful of the vibrant nature of the entertainment being provided at the Tudor Barn and the Council is committed to secure long term sustainability for the Tudor Barn, clearly we want to work with you and others to sustain the level of activity that currently exists. There was a clear sense of feeling at the public meeting on Monday and you will not find us wanting to resolve the future of the premises as speedily as possible". I think that sounds quite positive. Mick is trying to make contact today with the director of operations at the Blackheath Rugy Club which is within spitting distance of the Tudor Barn, with a view to us using their club house until the Barn opens again. If we don't have any luck there, Woodsie has another card up his sleeve, but whatever happens Folkmob will continue, there are lots more "Good Times" to come.

Sue

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:46 AM

While the Folkmob is important,
And while folk music itself is more important than the Folkmob,
I think we should not lose sight of the fact that this is possibly the most important medieval building still standing in South London, so that the preservation of the building is rather more important than preserving the folking there.

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: Girl Friday
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 02:18 PM

Absolutely right Richard. I expect that the rugby club will be cleaner, warmer, eqivalent in size, but totally lacking in atmosphere. That will be down to Folk Mob to acheive. THe TB must definitely be the most important mediaeval building in S.E. London and must be preserved at all costs.

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,Hersey Bar
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:06 AM

The best way to preserve a building is to use it!

Subject: RE: Tudor Barn Eltham Closure
From: GUEST,The Big T
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 04:40 AM

Yes Woodsie its me.
If you could get the Rugby Club for a short time that would be great.Remember they always have Music there for the Greenwich Jazz Festival. I know its at the bottom of my Garden. Be right handy for me. Seriously though lets just hope you can get somewhere soon. I know what it was like looking for new premises for Orpington Folk Club. Took a little while to get everyone back into the regular meetings. But the club (The Folk Mob that is) will go on as soon as possible.