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E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) Date: 17 Feb 08 - 02:33 PM "Why have Lizzie's messages been removed? The ones I read seemed inoffensive." apparently she's been barred from posting on this site..AND there are a few "Mudcatters" who think that I, The Mole catcher's Apprentice, an Lizzie Cornish using yet another alias. I do have this from a VERY reliable source by the way. Charlotte (chuckling away to herself) |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Feb 08 - 02:29 PM Why have Lizzie's messages been removed? The ones I read seemed inoffensive. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,The Molre Catcher's Apprentice Date: 17 Feb 08 - 02:06 PM "People who get angry about directions threads might go in the future are going to get ulcers. Why not wait till it happens? Very strange goings on." sorry..hate to disappoint you, but I was merely making an observation, which in part seems to be on its way to being fulfilled. It would take a good deal more than a Mudcat thread to anger me Charlotte (you must be joking of course) |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Feb 08 - 02:04 PM Punk - as punk - was a one-trick pony. The best things it produced had an additional dimension - for example as cited "Eton Rifles" (not really a "punk" song in style) - or "Peaches". Or "God save the Queen". But it really does illuminate matters somewhat to reflect that Johnny Rotten is a property speculator now. If you do bother to listen to the early Tom Robinson stuff - not just "Glad to be Gay" or "Motorway", but the political stuff - he was a very powerful lyricist and tunesmith. Quite apart from "the Winter of 79" which was prophetic - "I'm sorry if the soldiers have to hurt you Mr Harris But we've seen you with these people several times.. (etc)" Damn it the man even had Dumbya predicted. And he even wrote something that could become folk if enough people sing it - but actually he was a sod of a musician (simple sounding tunes with complex progressions underneath) and I can't figure out the chords or I WOULD do it - the Liddle Towers song. But, of course (to keep you happy, WLD) he was not a folk singer, nor were his songs folk songs. Nigel, most of punk was vacuous. Even teh frisson dies after 4 songs that sound just the same. I went to see Stiff Little Fingers once. They were supporting Ted Nugent. Worst gig I ever saw. Probably the second worst was the much feted Doll by Doll. Go shoot up a Ramone or something. Lizzie - don't be soppy. Englishness is not just about the Vicarage clock at Grantchester, or the phobic bigotry of Kipling, or the effortless sense of superiority of Richard Hannay in the 39 steps (or Biggles, or Dan Dare, come to that). It includes the violence for cause that did give us a revolution against the Jacobite kings, the blood spilt by the miners, the Peterloo massacre. It includes the violence without cause celebrated by the Dandy and the Beano. There are more pools of blood on the dancehall floor than there are Bronte sisters - and where would their muse have been without insanity and we can speculate on the wellspring of that. It also gave us many of the world's most influential writers on constitutional law, but it never gave us Machiavelli, Hitler, Napoleon, Mussolini, Pol Pot or Stalin. It gave us the society in which Karl Marx could write. Englishness is a complex thing. Probably beyond one song. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:55 PM "The gentry of old in their feudal tradition are sitting duck targets for live ammunition" ... from 'Blood' off the Astronauts' 1983 album 'Its All Done By Mirrors'. I think they were being ironic... I've not heard this lovely album in years. I'm listening to it now at Kill Your Pet Puppy! Pop it in the search engine and have a listen. Particularly to 'Typical English Day' which is as tender and beautiful as anything I've ever heard and is actually relevent to this thread! Strangely. Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Peace Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:53 PM LOL, Nigel. Either way. I know where your heart comes from. Not to worry. I am disappointed that Lizzie Cornish's posts were removed. They were good. Lots of people have enemies. When that enemy has the power to either edit what you say or prevent you from saying it, I think maybe it's time to re-look at things. And the way they're done. IMO. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:46 PM Peace, the 'Oh Jaysus' wasn't a reflection on your post! |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:44 PM I suppose because basically we are a Christian culture. And Jesus said, love thine enemy - he didn't say pretend thine enemy doesn't exist, or is invisible. What gave We Shall Overcome, Where have all the flowers gone, Glad to be Gay and Kumbaya their power as songs was that they were sung in the face of a frightening enemy. Everybody agrees the first world war was rotten. Those of us who had relations who lived in the shitty regions of the social system that existed before the first world war - find the gospel of the antediluvian heaven that existed before that war, a bit of a choker. A bit like ante bellum songs of Stephen Foster - joly darkies strumming de banjo on de old plantation. If there was a time when we all had more substantial virtues and more respect and love for each other than we do now - well gold is where you find it. If you find it in the morris tunes and folksongs of that era, and songs written 'in the tradition' romanticising that era - best of luck to ya! |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:43 PM Maybe the problem Lizzie is that English isn't English anymore. Its anybody from any country these days which is creating the problem. Anyway your video of the english rivers can't be correct. Today, you see bottles, paper and any old rubbish in them and green choking weed. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:37 PM Oh, Jaysus, I'm off to relive my misspent youth over at the Kill Your Pet Puppy anarcho-punk archive. WLD, pop over and have a look when you have a mo'... there's plenty of 'edge' there! Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,Peace Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:30 PM "There is severe dislike of the pedestal placement of a handful of artists by the establishment. There may be just a little irony in there somewhere." It has ever been thus, imo. It's not something new. Indeed some artists get preferential treatment. We have not seen an 'eclectic' presentation of music on radio for decades now. Stations select what they play and if it's supported by their audience, they keep playing that. I think radio stations would be well-advised to create shows that feature new or less well-known perfomers, because it seems obvious that they are losing their listening audiences here and there, much as churches are losing theirs. There's only so much same-ol that people will take. I think. Of course, not having been right about anything for a year now, I expect this won't make sense. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:13 PM I dunno, its like second nature. It could be the viking blood coursing though our veins which causes us to say Lark Ascending to Candleford by Way of Scottish Wool Shop and wipe my arse on Edwardian Ladies Notepaper! Terrible, but there it is.......! |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: The Sandman Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:09 PM I went to school with Tom Robinson,the funny thing is that neither of us were in the school popgroups..,or were involved in the school music projects. Englishness[what is it?]or is it just stereotyping |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Feb 08 - 11:51 AM 'The only thing that gave them an edge were Tom's politics and out-and-proud sexuality.' At least he had an edge, at a time when the folkscene was still ballsing on about the first world war. Still I suppose its human frailty that lets us wallow in grief for names on a stone monument - rather than do something practical for people who are going through a shit time in the here and now. And we're all only human. In fact an edge would be nice to see nowadays. I suppose Steve Knightley's songs about the squalid economy of the south west area, and maybe McTell's Peppers and Tomatoes song, an perhaps John Blanks song about the Polish immigrants/Polish airmen in the WW2 show some sort of attempt to engage with reality - but theres little of that 'bite you on the arse' aggression that TRB found in their songs, and which I think really helped change the climate of opinion in England towards gay people. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: KeithofChester Date: 17 Feb 08 - 11:25 AM Noel has produced quite a lot of dodgy lyrics (especially on Be Here Now) and he's not Chris Difford or Dylan to be sure. But there are some songs where he is really on form lyrically. Live Forever from the very first Oasis album being one, The Importance of Being Idle on the last album being another. Basically he's lazy and if he can't be bothered he bends to fit rather than leaving the song unfinished for weeks. When his muse if with him he's fine, and he's especially good on both Anthems and recycling and revitalising other people's tunes. Only Dylan probably did the latter more! Just how good a folksinger and writer Tom Robinson can be was demonstrated on the Faith, Folk & Anarchy project in his "Indian Summer" of 2001/2002, even if he was supposed to be providing the "Anarchy". |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 17 Feb 08 - 11:06 AM WLD - don't get your underthings in a twist... at the time of TRB I was too busy enjoying punk to get that excited by a bunch of retro rockers. The only thing that gave them an edge were Tom's politics and out-and-proud sexuality. In retrospect, 'Rising Free' wasn't too bad (though very one dimensional - hence the 'two tunes' crack) but they certainly didn't have another halfway decent album in them. The 'War Babies' comeback was anodyne and MOR and not a patch on Tom's two crowning moments - and I agree with you here, you'll be dismayed to know -'Glad to Be Gay' and 'Martin'... Anyway - apart from GTBG, which was way too radical for the Beeb (lyrically if not musically) - he didn't exactly suffer from underexposure - you couldn't move for hearing 'Motorway' on the radio when it came out. And there can't be many hard feelings given that he works for 'em now! If you want a quintessentially English songwriter from that period, you could do a lot worse than Paul Weller: 'Down in the Tube Station', 'Eton Rifles', 'When You're Young, 'Town Called Malice' just for starters. What a brilliant wordsmith the man was... Dunno why Oasis always get brought up in these discussions. Noel Gallagher used to be able to knock out a very sinagable tune, but by his own admission he was a crap lyricist. Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Feb 08 - 10:29 AM 'Tom Robinson Band - not bad for pedestrian pub rock. I quite liked both of the tunes they kept using.' TR and the TRB produced two massive hits, 2468 Motorway and Warbaby. Two of the greatest anthemic English songs ever - Glad to be Gay and Martin. Tom could slip effortlessly from acoustic guitar, to keyboard, to bass guitar - and he was in there supporting everything decent about the English way of life, and the values of a liberal democracy. He was a great bandleader. This was without the benefit of monopolising the BBC Radio folk programmes, or being given BBC2 hour long programmes and major label writing contracts - before displaying any obvious merit. He was my kind of folk. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 10:01 AM As was written about and still is the case at Market Rasen where I live. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Feb 08 - 09:45 AM Oh, I suppose we could have gone for a differnt Elton John song - Saturday Night (all right for fighting). |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: George Papavgeris Date: 17 Feb 08 - 09:38 AM "I was made in England" by Elton John (not sure if Taupin had a hand in this one). OK, I am being ironic, but then so was he, in his lyrics. Didn't stop the BNP yobs from espousing it, till someone explained the words to them. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 09:16 AM We are the champions by Queen comes to mind |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: KeithofChester Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:35 AM Maybe Oasis for the northwest? When Steve Knightley asserted that Rule Britannia and Swing Low Sweet Chariot were the only songs the English know, various deluded dachshunds got all excited and said he was dead right. I made the point that I had just been with 60,000 people singing all the words to Live Forever and Don't Look Back In Anger and that there were plenty of other songs that the English public DO know. You just need to conduct the sample where the English actually gather and sing. That isn't necessarily just at Rugby Union matches (or folk clubs). Noel Gallagher has written some great English songs, which given he is of Irish extraction is excellent. However, given that Seth Lakeman has claimed Richard Thompson for the English when he is half Scots and Eliza Carthy cites the songwriting of someone of Iranian extraction born in Zanzibar, I'm OK with that! |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 17 Feb 08 - 06:09 AM Top marks to Eliza C, I say, for championing the vastly underrated Half Man Half Biscuit. It would have been so easy for her to be predictable and she admirably resisted the temptation. There again, she's made a career out of resisting the temptation to be predictable. More like her, please! Tom Robinson Band - not bad for pedestrian pub rock. I quite liked both of the tunes they kept using. Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Feb 08 - 05:44 AM Oh, PS WLD, there are some who thought Thatcher the poison ivy of patriotism. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Feb 08 - 05:43 AM I'm a little surprised that a folksong singer and a neofolk singer were asked what song (note, not what "folksong") best describes Englishness. Is there a subtext here that popular music is no longer English? Most here who have actually tried to suggest such songs have not used folksongs as examples, perhaps because by definition folksongs address matters in the past and therefore provide roots for the present, and illuminate human nature and by analogy the present, but do not directly address present conditions (although the Jute Mill song and William Brown both show very close analogies). The social structures that provided for most broken-token songs and other songs of love lost and betrayed are happily almost wholly vanished. Ploughboys are gone (although I recall the verse added by the Young Tradition "There's a boy on a tractor a-going like hell And what farming is coming to sure no-one can tell") So are shantymen, the pressgang, and flogging round the fleet, dowries and killing one's daughter's suitors (well, mostly). Infanticide is rare. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Feb 08 - 10:23 PM Theres a lot of resentment for songs never heard, talents neglected a folk community betrayed. there are people who say be grateful for what little the BBC provides. I don't think this is realistic in the circumstances. Having said that, its not these musicians' fault that they are at the vortex of this storm of discontent. Anyway does anybody give a stuff what anybody else thinks constitutes Englishness? There are those who thought Mrs Thatcher was the flower of patriotism, who knows perhaps they had a point. There were certainly enough of the buggers thinking something like that enough to keep voting for her. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Betsy Date: 16 Feb 08 - 09:39 PM Written as an Englishman, with a love of all things British incl. Scottish ,Irish and Welsh custom, and music and song - The thread is a Load of Cack.Why we need to discuss the views of these two people's on "Englishness" is a complete nonsense. We need to stop all this otherwise we will end up as a as a third world nation conducts it's politics. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Feb 08 - 08:44 PM Publicity agents and managers, folk music? I think I'll keep playing the Irish and stick to Vaughan Williams for my quintessential Englishness then! And good luck to the brat-pack, as you say. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: George Papavgeris Date: 16 Feb 08 - 08:08 PM Steve, the Beeb has no preferences in my opinion. I believe they have the same view that Jon just expressed (with which I agree, by the way). They ask the agents, and the agents suggest. Now, let's not bemoan Eliza's, or Kate's or Seth's use of publicity agents or managers. When that is your livelihood, you go about it as professionally as you can, and using the tools the market provides. They are doing nothing wrong, and good luck to them. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,Jon Date: 16 Feb 08 - 07:54 PM I can't say I'm bothered about who the Guardian decided to use. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Feb 08 - 07:36 PM So Carthy, Lakeman and Rusby don't get preferential treatment by the Beeb then, thinking especially of the Harding hour? |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: George Papavgeris Date: 16 Feb 08 - 07:29 PM As I said above, this is too big a subject for even the best to be able to answer. The article therefore, by definition, was not aiming at arriving at a definitive answer - it couldn't have. The best it could hope for was to raise some questions in the minds of its readers; at worst it was pandering to the masses, just fodder. And when you do that, you don't undertake extensive research. No, you just pick up the phone and call a couple of publicity agents for ideas. And they in turn will suggest whoever is on their books, or at least someone they have heard about. No conspiracy and no pedestal placement, just the publicity agents doing their job. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Feb 08 - 07:07 PM There is no hate squad. There is severe dislike of the pedestal placement of a handful of artists by the establishment. There may be just a little irony in there somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,Jon Date: 16 Feb 08 - 07:01 PM What hate squad? Why are people no longer allowed not to like certain folk artists? |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Folknacious Date: 16 Feb 08 - 06:56 PM The Carthy/ Lakeman/ Rusby hate squad are probably going to drown in their own bile over this then: TV folk series |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Feb 08 - 06:47 PM Why the hell were Carthy and Lakeman selected for this by the Guardian anyway! This calls for a letter to the editor. I can only surmise that someone thought that Englishness has something to do with bloody big egos. There, I've gorn and said it. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: George Papavgeris Date: 16 Feb 08 - 06:45 PM Too tough a question for anyone to be able to give a succinct answer. When books have been written, trying to describe the English and "Englishness" (was it Colin Irwin that wrote the latest?), a single song would have no chance of being fully representative. Only partially. So you'd need many songs to have a chance at describing it. And probably next to zero chance of describing it to everyone's satisfaction, as there are so many views of Englishness, some borne out of different perspectives, some out of partisanship. So, in true English style, the answer perhaps ought to be... 42. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: greg stephens Date: 16 Feb 08 - 06:43 PM People who get angry about directions threads might go in the future are going to get ulcers. Why not wait till it happens? Very strange goings on. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Feb 08 - 06:39 PM Tom Robinson of that period was pure genius. Quintessentially English. It was a pity the folkies didn't get him. I suppose there must have been some crossover as you used to get Greenham women at his gigs, but not much. I was green with envy at what he was achieving artistically. Can't recall feeling like that about another artist. He was so good the record company dropped him and he went into exile. When War Baby charted in '83, he came back and I think that's when the media career started. I suppose, he'd learned his lesson - that you can't rely on the English to recognise songwriting about their own country and predicament. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 16 Feb 08 - 06:11 PM Well, regrettable though it may be, Ian Drury's "Billericay Dicky" sums up quite a lot of the English. That dreadful first hit by Lilly Allen many more. Any number of folk tunes and folk songs sticking up two fingers at the French probably summarise a less short-sighted perspective rather better. Another quintessentially English songwriter would be Tom Robinson. His "Winter of 79" captured much of the dread of the Thatcher years. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,Jon Date: 16 Feb 08 - 06:03 PM Alas, he needs no defense from the few critics he has because he makes the music they only wish they could. I've heard nothing of SL that has attracted me. There are of course plenty of musicians who's skills I wish I had but for some reason, these are musicians who's playing and singing I enjoy. Oddly enough, I don't for example criticise Barney McKenna because he can do things on the tenor banjo that I can't. I admire his playing instead. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Jack Campin Date: 16 Feb 08 - 05:57 PM Compare "Beeswing" with Belle Stewart's "Queen Among the Heather" (same storyline rendered very differently). I think I'll stick with Scottishness. I could stand to live in Eliza Carthy's England, but Lakeman's sounds like a place where everybody wore cashmere sweaters and the only reading material permitted would be the collected works of Mitch Albom and the Little Book of Hugs. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice Date: 16 Feb 08 - 05:20 PM "Villan Molecatcher and Peace are all referring to some row that I can't see any sign of" I was merely observing the general direction a thread like this could go, and Peace apparently agreed with me, nothing more, nothing less Charlotte (drawing the pictures) |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Peace Date: 16 Feb 08 - 04:38 PM The most vitriolic stuff I have seen on Mudcat aside from some political threads are posts from some British 'catters about musicians over there. Disgusting, actually. I understand what Villan is saying. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 16 Feb 08 - 04:29 PM Greg I really don't know what you are on about. I happen to think that the English are knockers and whingers and are never happy until sombody falls from grace. Oh Grace, catch me, I am falling off the bed. Les |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: greg stephens Date: 16 Feb 08 - 04:22 PM Has someone been trolling on here and been deleted?Villan Molecatcher and Peace are all referring to some row that I can't see any sign of. Odd. Another contibutor to the article(cant remember who) picked out Ray Davies of the Kinks as the example of Englishness(Waterloo Sunset the specific song). Totally agree with that, though I think Dediocated Follower of Fashion would be my choice. He was a definitve chronicler of Enmgland(well, London, anway). Maybe Oasis for the northwest? |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Peace Date: 16 Feb 08 - 02:34 PM Yes. One or more of the self-appointed critics who add nothing of value to the folk world will cut Lakeman down, and his supporters will come to his defense. Alas, he needs no defense from the few critics he has because he makes the music they only wish they could. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice Date: 16 Feb 08 - 02:29 PM You can see quite clearly where this thread is eventually headed. Charlotte (ducking for cover) |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 16 Feb 08 - 02:07 PM Englishness is making sure that somebody who is succesful, is brought to their knees. Don't we just love knocking people! |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Surreysinger Date: 16 Feb 08 - 01:56 PM LOL |
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