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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Cats Date: 18 Feb 08 - 11:04 AM Last night there was a TV programme about Desmond Tutu. It was 'Songs of Praise' on BBC1. Now, I am not a follower of this programme at all but I count Desmond Tutu as one of my all time heroes. On it there was a South African choir singing a wonderful arrangement of something that was vaguely familiar but I couldn't think what it was until about 2 minutes in when it dawned on me it was Kumbaya. I have to admit I cringe at the mention of Kumbaya but this version was absolutley superb and definitley worth going onto the BBC website just to hear it. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Feb 08 - 10:17 AM "...perfectly set up for many, many people to sing in unison." Room for some good harmonies as well. ...................................... "Cure" is an interesting word - in Irish usage it means "clever" or "cunning", maybe related to "acute". (The word for the My Little Pony type "cute" is ""doty".) Does that apply among Irish Americans? ........................................ Folkies can sometimes get horribly smart-arsed and snobbish about the business of what songs are seen as out of bounds. More often than not the list would include most of the songs that would most likely be welcomed and appreciated by ordinary people. And yet the essential ethos of "folk music" is that it is the music of "ordinary people" (even when they don't know it.) |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: wysiwyg Date: 18 Feb 08 - 09:35 AM Every genre has its own dirty-word songs. In our circles, "Amazing Grace" is one of the least welcome requests (among others), and I believe that Seamus Kennedy has his own list of "No" songs. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 18 Feb 08 - 09:18 AM Good point, Tinker (and Azizi too, as always) What's it's easy to forget is that to us been-there-done-that oldies, Kumbayah is over-familiar because we've all heard it sung and sung and sung. But to kids it's still a new experience, and I think it's right to introduce them to it. As has already been pointed out, however tired of it one may get, it's still a beautiful song with meaningful words (good scope for harmony singing too, an important aspect for me). |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Tinker Date: 18 Feb 08 - 08:51 AM Perhaps as time goes on Kumbayah isn't quite as over done as we think. A couple of summers ago I took a group of kids on a Church sponsered mission trip where we met up with kids from churches from through out the mid west US. One evening the activity was a simulation on economic injustice. As the upper 5 percent were seated and waited on with soda and popcorn directly infront of the movie screen the next 10% sat on the floor behind them and were told to be quiet and not disturb the people in front of them. They had a handful of popcorn and a juice box. The "masses" were then brought to the back of the room and basically bossed around and given nothing. The kids from my rather liberal eastern suburb had done this type of thing before and all began assorted protests.... But when it became clear they needed to organize the other 50 kids to acomplish anything I suddenly heard ... "Look we'll march up to the front singing Kumbayah..." "What's that ???" Not a single other Church group new the song. They ended up singing Row Row Row your boat because it was the only song they all knew. The actions were louder than the words. But part of me wishes the other kids had known the words..... |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Azizi Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:18 AM Richard, thanks for that clarification. One of the interesting things about this international forum {Mudcat} is to come across different slang and word usages and meanings between American English and other forms of English. With regard to the American {United States} meanings that I meant for the adjectives "corny" and "sappy", www.answers.com gives this definition for the adjective "corny"- " Trite, dated, melodramatic, or mawkishly sentimental." In my sentence, I meant the last definition given for "corny": "Some people think that the song Kumbaya is corny {mawkishly sentimental}." ** Also, answers.com gives these definitions for the adjective "sappy": 1.Full of sap; juicy. 2.Slang. Excessively sentimental; mawkish. 3.Slang. Silly or foolish. -snip- In my sentence, I meant the second definition of "sappy". "Some people think that the song Kumbaya is sappy {excessively sentimental}. So, it can be said that some people think the song Kumbaya is twee. But those people don't include me. :o) |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: KT Date: 18 Feb 08 - 06:13 AM Janie, you're a treasure! KT |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: John MacKenzie Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:30 AM Like the poem Art 'McGonigle' Thieme. G ¦¬] |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Feb 08 - 03:21 AM Perhaps there is another Atlantic gulf here - but I am not sure that I am wholly clear about "corny" - the usage you suggest indicates to me something different from the way I would use "corny". To me "corny" implies a fashion that has become dated. An old joke is "corny". Those metal bars with a little weight on the end that held shirt collars down are now corny. A song expressing old fashioned popular values may be corny. "Sappy" I don't know of being used in England in the way you imply. "Sappy" to me would indicate young flexible wood growing with vigour, and by analogy a young person's vigorous pushing aside of the old. "Twee", to me means excessively socially sweet or "nice" (but not "nice" in a good way), cloying, saccharine - overly inoffensive, self-consciously winsome. Beatrix Potter's books and animals in Victorian dresses are twee. The Rev. W. Aldry's books (the original "Thomas the Tank Engine") are twee. "My Little Pony" is twee. Most things chintzy are twee. Constance Spry verses in greetings cards are twee. Cards for mothering Sunday (a specified date on the Christian religious calendar) calling it "mother's day, or worse, "Mummy's day" are twee. A woman of 30 or over calling her mother "mummy" or her father "daddy" is twee. A man of over 30 doing so is nauseating. I would not equate twee with daintiness or delicacy, and certainly not with quaintness which implies old-fashioned. "Cute" to mean "attractive" I also find nauseating. I object to its colonisation of the English language. It can mean acute or adept (as in "a cute trick"). It is a word I almost never use, and certainly never in the American way which I also find imprecise (maybe because I am too busy vomiting to think about its meaning). The use of the word "cute" however, is twee. Where others might say of a baby girl that she is "cute" I would say "pretty" or "attractive" or "fetching". I hope that clarifies what I was meaning. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Janie Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:18 AM I'll risk making a fool of myself here. I think it a lovely song of sorrow in search of solace. A prayer. Janie |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 17 Feb 08 - 11:20 PM TWEES I think that I will never see A poem as bad as Kilmer's Twees So here I leave the rhyme scheme of that horrid verse With hopes that never e'er shall I be known to write A poem that's any worse! Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Phil Cooper Date: 17 Feb 08 - 10:43 PM I have nothing against Kumbaya. I don't have much feel for it, either. I was first exposed to it by camp counselors at a church camp I was sent to in the summer after fourth grade, when I didn't want to go. I was uncomfortable with the forced comraderie and the buddy system (when swimming). I liked the fact that the counselor's played instruments. Perhaps watching them play guitars and banjos warped my young sensibilities. But Kumbaya seemed to be more force feeding of the religious subtext of the whole camp thing. I thought the counselors seemed to have more fun playing their instruments with each other after they sent us all back to our cabins. I'm perfectly willing to say when voicing my opinion on the song that one should consider the source, before making their own judgement. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Azizi Date: 17 Feb 08 - 10:18 PM Hmm, I thought I saw the definition "corny" in that dictionary entry, but apparently not. Are corny and sappy what you meant by "twee", Richard? Those descriptors seems to fit what some people think of the song Kumbaya instead of [the American definitions of] "affectedly or excessively dainty, delicate, cute, or quaint". |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Azizi Date: 17 Feb 08 - 10:13 PM Somewhat off-topic: Richard Bridge, In two of your posts to this thread you used the word "twee". The first time you used it, I wondered if you were referring to the "Twi" language and culture of the Akan peoples of Ghana, West Africa. But the second time, I figured that was probably not the case. So I decided to look up the meaning of the word "twee". I'm posting that definition here in case there are other "UnitedStaters" and folks from other countries reading this thread who also don't know this word: twee One entry found. twee Main Entry: twee Pronunciation: \ˈtwç\ Function: adjective Etymology: baby-talk alteration of sweet Date: 1905 chiefly British : affectedly or excessively dainty, delicate, cute, or quaint http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/twee -snip- Oh, what you were saying is that the song Kumbaya has become corny {and maybe sappy is another adjective that fits that definition of "twee"}. Okay. I get it. Thanks, Richard, for providing an opportunity to learn that British colloquial term! |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Feb 08 - 09:46 PM I don't think you are thinkng of teh songs as you read teh words written here about them, Buck. Times they are a-changin neatly expresses the scorn that youth always has for its parents. That saves it from soppiness. Blowing in the Wind teeters on twee at times, but again there is there is the rhetorically expressed anger - How many times must, etc |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:19 PM They should've said that "it was a Waltzing With Bears moment." That I could've got behind. Art |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: BuckMulligan Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:14 PM Sorry, that last GUEST post was me, forgot to login on the home machine. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: GUEST Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:13 PM I suppose it's unnecessary, but "dirty word" was a metaphorical phrase; in no circumstance did I mean to imply that anyone as far as I know actually think that "kumbaya" is a nasty word. If anyone got that impression, mea culpa for not making myself clear. So do all the truly great and thoughtful responses to "Kumbaya" as a song and a concept also then apply to The Times They Are a'Changing and Blowin' In The Wind (as well as some of the other naively hopeful songs already mentioned like Last Night I had the Strangest Dream, etc.)? (tough to handle punctuation in a parenthetical). They must. What were we thinking back then, then? And what has changed in us? |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: SINSULL Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:06 PM Like "Where Have All The Flowers Gone", "Kumbaya" was done to death. I cringe in unison with other members of the audience when anyone starts either one though I love both songs. Go figure. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:06 PM Maybe it's because it is religious that it seems so wet? |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Azizi Date: 17 Feb 08 - 02:44 PM Little Hawk, I appreciate your response. However, I'm old school enough to be turned off by the words you used to make your satirical point, especially when those words are used for a religious song. I also was turned off by your put down on the so called Navaho word or phrase. But, I'm not going to belabor these points. I understand better than I did before you wrote your response that you really didn't mean anything negative by what you wrote. Again, it's a matter of different strokes for different folks. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Feb 08 - 02:06 PM It all depends on whether you take it seriously or not, I suppose, or whether you take it on the level it's intended as...pure satire. One thing I have discovered is that when one engages in any form of barbed satire, someone out there is always offended....and who does one hear from? Not the 99 people who weren't offended, but the one who was. I was defending the song "Kumbaya", Azizi, by satirizing the very idea that it is "a dirty word" in such a way as to say that that idea is ridiculous. If you read all my remarks in context throughout this thread, you will see that I am defending the song "Kumbaya". I agree with Spaw's remarks and McGrath's...people who object to something they themselves once participated in with open hearts...or that other people did...are most often people who are experiencing considerable inner sorrow over their own lost youth and the idealism that was once a part of their youth. The strength of a song like Kumbaya is that it is simple in structure and perfectly set up for many, many people to sing in unison. It's good for people to sing together like that. It joins their hearts in a common upliftment, rather as a good chant does. Your favorite candidate, Mr Obama, seems to be well aware of that, and he is finding his own ways of doing something along that line. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Azizi Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:44 PM Little Hawk, I suppose that your 17 Feb 08 - 01:09 PM post was snark. But giving that meaning even in jest to the title of a religious song seems quite off-putting to me... However, I guess to each his or her own. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: katlaughing Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:41 PM So, singing We Shall Overcome = doing something about it singing Kumbaya = wannabe, naive idjits who do nothing I had no idea all of our actions meant absolutely nothing since we were, at times, singing the wrong song That is fucked up... |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:09 PM Right on. Now THIS is the real reason why "Kumbaya" is a dirty word. It means "Go f*ck yourself!" in Navaho. It's even worse than saying "Kimosavay" (which means "you are the progeny of a wild dog and a traveling snake oil salesman")! So never ever sing "Kumbaya" when you're visiting the Navahos, but feel free to sing it anywhere else you please without hesitation. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Feb 08 - 12:48 PM Songs don't get killed. People get tired of them, but often that's just part of getting tired of themselves. The temptation is to blame the song for the disappointment we feel. Rather analogous to blaming the messenger for the bad news. Lumping Kumbaya in with some of the other rather second rate songs mentioned isn't justifiable. (I don't mean they are all second-rate.) Kumbaya is not a second-rate song, though often enough like any good song it's been sung in a second rate way, and without much understanding. Often sentimental and wishy-washy. I started writing this and I was called away, and before I came back I saw a bit of a TV programme about Archbishop Tutu, and one of the songs featured a South African group of singers with a version of Kumbaya. Nothing sentimental or wishy-washy about the way they sang it. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Backwoodsman Date: 17 Feb 08 - 12:43 PM No problemo Azizi, credit where it's due! Best, J |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: John MacKenzie Date: 17 Feb 08 - 11:13 AM Just about John. It sort of ties in with the Hippy Drippy sentiments that were around then too. [Not that they've totally gone!] G |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Charley Noble Date: 17 Feb 08 - 11:12 AM As with other wonderful songs with a rich complex history, this one got worn out but will be rediscovered and enjoyed again by another generation. I remember teaching it to a group of South African refugee students who were at my school in Ethiopia in 1966, when I was a Peace Corps teacher. They were fine singers, and my only regret is I lost a tape of their own wonderful songs. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: John Hardly Date: 17 Feb 08 - 11:03 AM "It's the ethos of Kumbaya that is being denigrated and not the sentiments expressed in the song, that is at the root of the remark about "A Kumbaya moment"" If by "ethos" you mean the naive notion that sitting around in a circle, holding hands and singing a really lame song was the same thing as doing something ...or even came anywhere near appropriately framing a grievance, then, yes, I agree with you. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Amos Date: 17 Feb 08 - 10:49 AM reápine INTRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: reápined, reápináing, reápines 1. To be discontented or low in spirits; complain or fret. 2. To yearn after something: Immigrants who repined for their homeland. ETYMOLOGY: Middle English repinen, to be aggrieved : re-, re- + pinen, to yearn; see pine2. I still ask if there is a there there. :D A |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Feb 08 - 09:43 AM I don't recollect Kumbaya in the UK ever having the hint of despair, possibly even the despair that leads to revolution, that the familiarity with Gullah might have given it in the USA. It just sounded kind of twee, and we were not taking our hope from religion in the 60s (except in a Timothy Leary sort of way). From the UK perspective of the Aldermaston march the hint of uprising in "We shall overcome" spoke in a way that was easier to relate to. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Mr Happy Date: 17 Feb 08 - 09:43 AM Have you checked out its meaning in other languages? Maybe it may have negative content in some foreign tongue |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: catspaw49 Date: 17 Feb 08 - 09:29 AM Repined? I dunno' Amos, I think I'd prefer to do it over in a nice birdseye maple............... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Azizi Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:02 AM Backwoodsman, Thanks for your compliment! An unexpected compliment is the best kind. By the way, your check is in the mail. :o) |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: John MacKenzie Date: 17 Feb 08 - 05:37 AM It's the ethos of Kumbaya that is being denigrated and not the sentiments expressed in the song, that is at the root of the remark about "A Kumbaya moment" The same can be said of several 'feel good' songs like, Last Night I had a Wondrous Dream, Ebony and Ivory, and even White Cliffs of Dover. What is says to me is that the impact of the song and the sentiments it expresses, disappears with repetition. It proves the saying that one can get too much of a good thing, and it also explains why we get fed up with the same message repeated ad nauseam, till we despise the messenger, and in so doing dismiss the message. I can think of several people and politicians who follow a monotonous course through life, banging on and on about the same thing, and have thus turned me and others, from friends and disciples, to apathy or dare I say it,adversaries. So next time you hear (The Bloody Awful) Fields of Athenry, don't shoot the singer, not unless he/she is really bad that is. Giok |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Amos Date: 17 Feb 08 - 04:47 AM For an old fart, Spaw still has one helluva serve.....but I dunno. Lost innocence repined? Is there really a there there? A |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 17 Feb 08 - 04:26 AM Just a thought on what happened to that song in the UK. I was made to go to sunday school as a kid in the seventies. The people in change were largely pleasant-but-earnest, tiggerishly enthusiastic, mildly hippyish, Jesus-lovin' types, who would not only make us sing songs like Kumbaya but always close their eyes, raise their hands heaven-wards and put on a pained expression like they were straining to take an almighty dump when doing so... Every friggin' week. For what seemed like years. So please excuse me when I say it's ALL about context and for me, when this song is mentioned, I want to run a mile. Pavlov and his dog got it just about right! Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Backwoodsman Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:51 AM Wise words Azizi (as always, may I say). Over here, it was also played to death, along with others such as 'Streets of London', a fine and meaningful song about homelessness which also was killed by its own popularity. Sad, but as they say, "That's (musical) Life"! |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: KT Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:27 AM well said, Spaw. And Little Hawk ~ "A song carries what you bring to it, specially a very simple song like Kumbaya. If you have nothing left to bring to it, well, then, don't blame the song." This discussion brings to mind an image which likens us to trees.... Like trees, as we grow older, we develop more and more layers, a thicker, tougher exterior perhaps, brought about by exposure and growth and the process of aging. But that purity, that sincerity, that essence of our youth, though now covered by the many layers we've acquired, is still there at the very center of who we are. And on those rare occasions when we connect with it once again, we expereince, for a very brief time, a coming home. KT |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Feb 08 - 02:19 AM Yes, you got it right, Spaw. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: katlaughing Date: 17 Feb 08 - 12:08 AM Too true, Spawdarlin'...:-< Bang the drum slowly, and play the fife lowly... |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Azizi Date: 17 Feb 08 - 12:01 AM Also, kumbaya moments may have nothing whatsoever to do with singing folk songs around a campfire or otherwise. For instance, one of the recent 2008 Democratic Presidental debates was described as being kumbaya-like, because the candidates did not argue as was expected, but instead "made nice" with [towards] each other. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Azizi Date: 16 Feb 08 - 11:47 PM Let me try again to say what I meant to say: Some people sang and/or sing the song Kumbaya because they like the song's words, and its tune, and/or they like and accept and perhaps even live the we-are-the-world view that the song has come to stand for. Notwithstanding all of that, I believe that the song Kumbaya has become a symbol of and a connotation for an attitude or experience of fake, rose-colored glasses brotherhood and sisterhood. It's my sense that people who ridicule "kumbaya" aren't ridiculing the song as much as they are putting down the concept that the song connotes-fake, or surface sweetness and light brotherhood and sisterhood. While I don't ridicule "kumbaya moments", I believe that those experiences should motivate people to work for true equality under the laws and a viewpoint that all of us truly are brothers and sisters and should be equally valued regardless of race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, gender, economic class, sexual orientation and other things that have divided people for so long and that continue to divide us. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Feb 08 - 11:42 PM "If I laugh at any mortal thing, tis that I may not weep."......George Gordon(Lord Byron) While we can discuss our early idealism and naivete and intellectualize about the follies of youth, the truth is down a few more tiers in our souls. We laugh off and make fun of those things associated with that time to cover our sadness and sorrow over our loss of innocence which we can never recover. Just my 2 cents............ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Feb 08 - 11:24 PM You can't have an overdose of sincerity, but you can have an overdose of naivete. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: freightdawg Date: 16 Feb 08 - 11:11 PM "Overdose of sincerity." (Joe Offer) That's why I keep coming back to the 'Cat. When I can finally come up with a phrase like that I will be able to die contented. Really profound, in a folkie existentialist sort of way. Freightdawg |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 16 Feb 08 - 11:07 PM These days, when some call something P.C.--politically correct--it is a way to demean and trivialize programs and points of view that have real merit.--- To me, it is like ending a sentence with the word "so" -- right in the middle of a sentence. It leaves it to the listener to fill in the blanks with mutually held prejudices and attitudes which, to those who "know" are, obviously, too obvious to bother spending the effort to make a clear statement of facts. Liberal is another one of those words. And now this song title is being made into a coded message even as we speak.--- It is a way to condemn without saying anything at all. The inference is enough for the "in group" --- It's us and them---and we know all about them, right?! Art |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Bee Date: 16 Feb 08 - 11:05 PM I think, as well, as we age there is a tendency to remember our young selves too harshly: we remember our own ignorance, we squirm a little at how naive we were, how distant from reality were our ideals, and how simple we thought complex issues could be. We regard those earnest croonings of Kumbaya with embarassment because, however well meaning we were, there was a lot we didn't really understand about even so simple and sweet a song as that. |
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Subject: RE: Why is Kumbaya a dirty word? From: Greg B Date: 16 Feb 08 - 10:35 PM Heh heh--- she said 'Kum'---- heh heh... |
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