BS: Apostrophe Question???

Subject: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 06:57 PM

Okay I ain't gonna say which side I'm on 'cause I don't wanta prejudice the answer but me and the P-Vine had a little disagreement over the use of an apostrophe and we have a little bet wagered on the answer... So here goes:

Which is correct?

1. There are 2 b's in Bobert.

or...

2. There are 2 bs is Bobert.

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:01 PM

hahhaha You're leading with your chin in the second hypothesis, Beaubear.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:02 PM

b's is my vote, but I'm not sure if it's actually *correct* - anybody learn English as a foreign language? They are usually the ones who remember the rules...

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:06 PM

An apostrophe is used to make a possessive or a contraction. IMHO, it is NEVER used to make a plural. However, a few internet sources disagree with me (as do a few people on Mudcat, from time to time)...grammar.about.com
says that the specific thing you are asking about is allowed. Especially in Virginia.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:07 PM

The "bees" are not possessive, so according to my editor boss, there should be no apostrophe. OH, but hang on....read this:

Apostrophes are sometimes used to make acronyms or other abbreviations plural (another matter of a local house style). My preference: don't use apostrophes to make abbreviations plural — not "They took their SAT's," but "They took their SATs." The only exception is when having no apostrophe might be confusing: "Two As" is ambiguous (it might be read as the word as); make it "Two A's." Never use apostrophes as single quotation marks to set off words or phrases (unless you need a quotation within a quotation).

Using an apostrophe to refer to a decade — the 1960's versus the 1960s — is another matter of house style; again, journalists tend to use the apostrophe, and most other publishers don't. I prefer to omit it: refer to the 1960s or the '60s (the apostrophe indicates that "19" has been omitted), not the 1960's or (worse) the '60's.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Rowan
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:08 PM

"Bobert" has one B and one b if you're a pedant.

But some might say there are two "b"s in his name.

So, two "b"s or not two b's; that is the question.

No?

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:08 PM

You're not a greengrocer are you Bobert?

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:20 PM

I think Rowan's got it. Clarity is the thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: vectis
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:26 PM

2 is correct English.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:29 PM

No apostrophe there Bobert; it is neither (or neither) a possessive nor a contraction. BTW the choice of pronunciation of N E I T H E R sounds better than it reads. >)

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:32 PM

You're both wrong. When referring to a word, letter, or number by name, it should always be enclosed in quotation marks. So the correct form is:

There are two "b"s in "Bobert".

That, of course, assumes that the entire phrase itself isn't a direct quotaion. If that were the case, the proper form would be:

"There are two 'b's in 'Bobert'."

In such a construction, the mark after the "b" is a single quotation mark, not an apostrophe. They just look the same.

To further complicate matters, I'm old-fashioned and always use full quotation marks, but some writers have opted for the single quotation mark style. In that case, the proper form would be:

'There are two "b"s in "Bobert".'

Since the writer is enclosing the entire quotation within single quotation marks, full quatation marks are used for the "b".

Now go back to bed until your back feels better.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:33 PM

My brain hurtz. Now Bobertz done it.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:35 PM

According the the Perdue University writing lab, b's is appropriate. You can use an apostrophe in plurals of lower case letters. I write "CDs" though, because it's a clear plural when the 's' follows upper case letters.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:36 PM

I think I will stay out of THIS one ! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:38 PM

If someone disagrees with me, they surely will be able to cite a reliable source. (I'm assuming Perdue is fairly reliable.)

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: bobad
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:41 PM

So is Purdue.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:42 PM

Yeesh! Must've been thinking about chickens...

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:45 PM

The apostrophe is just plain wrong. There is no excuse for mistake's of this sort.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:59 PM

Apostrophes aren't just used to indicate a possessive.Another use is to indcate the absenbce of letters, yet another is as a closing quote mark, and a third is for plurals of letters or numbers, as in the example Boberts supplied.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:06 PM

As I said, clarity of communication is the thing. To say, as Bobert postulated, that 'There are two bs in Bobert', is not only unclear but vaguely scatological.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:10 PM

The operative question is...where in Bobert are these bees? If they are in his bonnet, that is simply normal.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:12 PM

McGrath-

"the absenbce of letters"?

Maybe an apostrophe would help your spelling. LOL

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: bobad
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:12 PM

Bobert, I would have those bb's removed forthwith.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:17 PM

Bobert, I know lot's about apo'strophe's so s'tay with me on thi's, OK? Let me know a's s'oon a's your' ready. I'm here to help.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:17 PM

I suspect a difference between American and British conventions here. I've noticed, especially when discussing recordings, Brits tend to write 45s, 78s, LPs, CDs, the 1950s, and so on, while Americans are likely to use an apostrophe: 45's, 78's, LP's, CD's, the 1950's.

Of course, we Americans don't generally use an apostrophe with plurals; this convention applies only when the thing being pluralized isn't an ordinary word, but rather a letter, a number, or an abbreviation.

Although I'm American, I have recently adopted the British style of writing CDs, 1950s, etc., because it just makes more sense.

Dang it, I've got a Chicago Manual of Style around here somewhere; if only I knew where to lay my hands on it!

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:26 PM

"while Americans are likely to use an apostrophe: 45's, 78's, LP's, CD's, the 1950's."

not THIS American. I strongly resist the use of excessive apostrophes.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:29 PM

"I strongly resist the use of excessive apostrophes."

I too s'trongly re'sis't the us'e of exce's's'ive apo'strophe's'.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Beer
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:29 PM

I'm going with BoBBert. Sounds like "Barbarian" and I always liked that tune. Hope you get the correct answer so you can sleep tonight.
B'eer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:32 PM

If he wins, he may be able to sleep, but he'll probably be outside with the dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:32 PM

"I too s'trongly re'sis't.... "
needs a couple of commas

"I, too, s'trongly re'sis't ..

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:33 PM

Hey, Bobert/Bobbert: Have you considered something like "Mississippi Bob Ert or even "Boston" Bob Bert or Tallahassea/Tallahasassy/Talahassey "Chicago" Bo Bert?

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:35 PM

Yeah, Bill's got it,'.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:36 PM

Bill, it's comma's!

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Peace
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:37 PM

SHE'S GOT IT. We've been reading upside down. It's the yoga. Really.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:43 PM

Jim, I don't have a Chicago Manual of Style, but my copy of Turabian says that alphabetic plurals with apostrophes are an allowable form, as are alphabetic plurals without apostrophes, as long as one is consistent. Plurals of numbers, including dates (eg, 45s, the 1960s) are formed without one.

A good (and funny) book which examines the differences in transoceanic punctuation style is Eats, Shoots & Leaves by Lynne Truss. She says that "b's" is fine for more than one "b", and that "1900s" is normal everywhere but the US, where "1900's" is the accepted plural. The jury is obviously out on the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:44 PM

'...

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:46 PM

If we were rigorous about these things I suppose my name would be written as "M'cGrath", to indicate the missing "a". Fortunately we aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 09:54 PM

"The crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe."

Frank Zappa

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Slag
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 10:15 PM

The letter "b" appears twice in Bobert's name.
If you have any other questions I can be found in the fo'c's'le. Ahoy!

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Rowan
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 10:30 PM

Bobert's had lots of possibilities canvassed so far but 'til there's consensus I'll wait with 'bated breath; Mudcat's expertise comes to the fore again.

Five apostrophes for a commonly absented letter or set of letters, two of which are aphetic, and there's one possessive apostrophe thrown in for good measure.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Slag
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 12:13 AM

How many apostrophes can you correctly use in one word? My entry is the possessive of the above mentioned "fo'c's'le". I'l put it in quotes to belay any confusion (snicker, snicker), "The fo'c's'le's entry way was blocked." That's four! What a strophe of genius!

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Slag
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 12:14 AM

What the "l"? I may have omitted it but I could have at least put an apostrophe in there. Hmmp! Some genius I turned out to be!

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 12:24 AM

The purpose of writing style is the facilitation of communication.
"Bobert has two bs" doesn't communicate.
"Bobert has two b's" does
so does "Bobert has two Bs"
as does (my preference" "Bobert has two 'b's"

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Amos
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 01:27 AM

This is horse pucky. First, BWL has the correct answer in traditional grammar. Second, the use of an apostrophe in forming plurals as in "two b's on all his CD's" is allowable English, neither strictly adherent to prescribed grammar nor strictly in violation of it, by reason of increased usage. Grammarians may not like it but their subject includes the grey line of popular advance in which usage defines correctitude.




A

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: autolycus
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:00 AM

The redundant apostrophe (e.g. apple's 70p per pound, hence "the greengrocer's apostrophe) may be growing usage, and be becoming acceptable, but it began as a manifestation of striving ignorance. Someone mistakenly thought the above ex. required a ' when it didn't, and it became popular among the same ignorant group.

It may be US usage; to me , CD's, the 1970's, etc. simply looks like usage by those who never fully grasped grammar; like I never fully grasped science. Doensn't mean to say we science-ignorant people can waffle on any old popular how.

Popularity doesn't make it correct. Except in language. Of course. Harumph.


   Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:04 AM

Remember Don Imus' infamous remark about "nappy-headed ho's"? Or should that be "nappy-headed hos"?

The following publications used the apostrophe:
The Boston Globe
The Chicago Tribune
The Economist (UK)
The New York Daily News
The New Yorker
The St. Louis Post-Dispatch
The Village Voice (NY)
USA Today

The following publications omitted the apostrophe:
The Boston Herald
The Charlotte Observer
The Globe and Mail (Toronto)
The Guardian (UK)
The Miami Herald
The Telegraph (UK)
The Times (UK)
The Washington Post

The following publications were inconsistent:
The Nation (US)
The New York Post
The San Francisco Chronicle

Digression:
Dagens Nyheter, a Swedish newspaper, mistranslated the remark as "diaper-headed …"

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 09:38 AM

To those who think there should be no apostrophe in terms such as b's:
read the following.

Don't put two many as in "as." [unclear]
Don't put two many a's in "as." [clear]

How many is are there in "is?" [unclear]
How many i's are there in "is?" [clear]

As for the matter of double quotation marks versus single, I've recently decided to use singles whenever possible, just because shifting to get the doubles is an extra step. Also, I have such short little fingers that when reaching for the shift key, I often hit something else.

I have noticed that single quotes are often used for dialog in books.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 10:01 AM

The purpose of conventins about puncruationy is to ensure clarity. If applying some rule makes for ambiguity - as in the examples our last GUEST demonstrated - that just means that the rule in this instance is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: Amos
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 10:59 AM

Wrongly including an apostrophe to make plurals where no apostrophe is needed is a very different thing -- agreed, a trend of flagrant ignorance.

It is odd, but somehow consistent, that journalist would write "ho's" but would write "palominos" or "Oreos". It seems to me there is some subtle distinction being made which has not been fuly articulated properly.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question???
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 11:16 AM

Quoted from Jim Dixon above: "Remember Don Imus'...".

That should of course read Don Imus's. Only plurals ending in "s" and, for some reason, biblical characters have the possesive apostrophe at the end of the word. Singular words ending "s" require the "'s" ending

One thing about the greengrocer's apostrophe is the oft seen "potato's" which is correct as the apostrophe indicates the missing "e".