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BS: Obama Swiftboated

Rabbi-Sol 18 Feb 08 - 03:08 PM
Stilly River Sage 18 Feb 08 - 03:14 PM
katlaughing 18 Feb 08 - 03:29 PM
Ebbie 18 Feb 08 - 03:29 PM
Peace 18 Feb 08 - 03:35 PM
PoppaGator 18 Feb 08 - 03:37 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Feb 08 - 03:47 PM
Bobert 18 Feb 08 - 04:04 PM
Little Hawk 18 Feb 08 - 04:08 PM
Riginslinger 18 Feb 08 - 04:09 PM
Rabbi-Sol 18 Feb 08 - 04:10 PM
Peace 18 Feb 08 - 04:19 PM
Wesley S 18 Feb 08 - 04:21 PM
Peace 18 Feb 08 - 04:26 PM
Little Hawk 18 Feb 08 - 04:28 PM
Peace 18 Feb 08 - 04:34 PM
Wesley S 18 Feb 08 - 04:34 PM
Peace 18 Feb 08 - 04:37 PM
Ebbie 18 Feb 08 - 04:41 PM
Donuel 18 Feb 08 - 04:58 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Feb 08 - 05:08 PM
Scanner 18 Feb 08 - 06:28 PM
artbrooks 18 Feb 08 - 06:37 PM
Rabbi-Sol 18 Feb 08 - 06:47 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 18 Feb 08 - 06:57 PM
Ebbie 18 Feb 08 - 07:02 PM
Ebbie 18 Feb 08 - 07:08 PM
Peace 18 Feb 08 - 07:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Feb 08 - 07:13 PM
Peace 18 Feb 08 - 07:16 PM
gnu 18 Feb 08 - 07:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Feb 08 - 07:31 PM
Don Firth 18 Feb 08 - 07:40 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 18 Feb 08 - 08:01 PM
Ebbie 18 Feb 08 - 08:24 PM
wysiwyg 18 Feb 08 - 10:57 PM
freightdawg 18 Feb 08 - 11:18 PM
Little Hawk 19 Feb 08 - 12:51 AM
CarolC 19 Feb 08 - 01:26 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 19 Feb 08 - 09:02 AM
Amos 19 Feb 08 - 09:26 AM
Barry Finn 19 Feb 08 - 11:18 AM
Little Hawk 19 Feb 08 - 11:44 AM
freightdawg 19 Feb 08 - 01:59 PM
Little Hawk 19 Feb 08 - 02:02 PM
gnu 19 Feb 08 - 02:12 PM
CarolC 19 Feb 08 - 02:16 PM
Amos 19 Feb 08 - 02:34 PM
Big Mick 19 Feb 08 - 02:39 PM
Amos 19 Feb 08 - 02:42 PM
Big Mick 19 Feb 08 - 03:01 PM
Ebbie 19 Feb 08 - 03:30 PM
Charley Noble 19 Feb 08 - 04:03 PM
artbrooks 19 Feb 08 - 05:34 PM
GUEST,Guest 19 Feb 08 - 07:04 PM
Ebbie 19 Feb 08 - 07:40 PM
GUEST,Guest 19 Feb 08 - 07:50 PM
GUEST,TIA 19 Feb 08 - 10:35 PM
Little Hawk 19 Feb 08 - 10:39 PM
Big Mick 19 Feb 08 - 11:09 PM
Amos 19 Feb 08 - 11:21 PM
Little Hawk 20 Feb 08 - 02:19 AM
Amos 20 Feb 08 - 02:37 AM
GUEST,geminess 20 Feb 08 - 02:38 PM
Little Hawk 20 Feb 08 - 02:59 PM
Riginslinger 20 Feb 08 - 04:42 PM
Greg F. 21 Feb 08 - 10:08 AM
Riginslinger 21 Feb 08 - 10:34 AM
Little Hawk 21 Feb 08 - 12:36 PM
Riginslinger 21 Feb 08 - 12:39 PM
Little Hawk 21 Feb 08 - 12:44 PM
Don Firth 21 Feb 08 - 02:37 PM
Riginslinger 21 Feb 08 - 02:52 PM
artbrooks 21 Feb 08 - 03:16 PM
Amos 21 Feb 08 - 04:04 PM
Little Hawk 21 Feb 08 - 04:10 PM
Riginslinger 21 Feb 08 - 04:13 PM
Amos 21 Feb 08 - 04:42 PM
GUEST,Guest 21 Feb 08 - 09:04 PM
Cluin 21 Feb 08 - 09:11 PM
Little Hawk 21 Feb 08 - 10:00 PM
Amos 21 Feb 08 - 10:14 PM
Cluin 21 Feb 08 - 10:16 PM
Little Hawk 21 Feb 08 - 10:32 PM

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Subject: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 03:08 PM

A guy by the name of Larry Sinclair has made a video on You Tube claiming that in 1999 that he and Obama engaged in oral sex and smoked crack cocaine in the back of his limousine. It was at the time when Obama was already an elected state representative. The man is willing to take a polygraph test and has challenged Obama to do the same. This video has already gotten more hits than any other in You Tube history.

                                                   SOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 03:14 PM

Bad news travels halfway around the world before the truth has its boots on.

I heard paraphrased quote this morning on the radio. How true. Smut has legs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 03:29 PM

I wouldn't give it much credence. There are several youtube vids. listed, pro and con about Sinclair's allegations. It looks as though they've been going on at least a month if not longer. One did have over 200,000 hits, but I don't think that's a record for youtube, in fact I am sure it is not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 03:29 PM

Well. I just watched the Sinclair YouTube and I have a number of observations.

* If Sinclair is sincere, he may have the wrong person in mind.
* I cannot picture this man in an "upscale lounge" or in his "own limousine."
* This man, to me, does not appear physically or in personality or in education, to be someone who would appeal to an up and coming politician with his eye on the US presidency.
* The allegations are vague ("He 'acquired' those drugs?) and extremely timely.
* I do NOT suspect the connivance of the Clintons in this. Far more likely, imo, are mental health issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 03:35 PM

I have a bridge that might interest some folks . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 03:37 PM

I wouldn't suspect the Clintons, but I certainly do suspect the right wing.

Not necessarily anyone very highly placed in the GOP establishment, and certainly not Senator McCain or any of his people, but there are plenty of partisan nutcases who are so sure that God is on their side that they assume He would be gladly suspend His usual rules for them, His special favorites, granting them carte blanche to lie, cheat, steal, and commit libel in service of the repressive "greater good."

"Mental health issues," to be sure, but partisan ones nonetheless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 03:47 PM

Lies about candidates have appeared in every campaign. Washington ran away from the British and crossed the Delaware in terror and Lincoln declared Emancipation because of all the illegitimate kids he had with female slaves.

Hillary and Bill are attracting the same sort of garbage. The emails are worse. Did you know Obama was a Muslim and wants to institute sharia law?

A big Ho-hum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:04 PM

That's okay... I have pictures of John McWar and Hillary McClinton coming out of a sleezy motel room...

And I am willing to show them and take a poligraph if the money is right...


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:08 PM

That's the kind of stuff people are always trying to hire Chongo for. (The photographs, I mean.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:09 PM

Pictures of Hillary slumming?

          Somebody sent that Obama video to me several weeks ago, so it's been around for a while.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:10 PM

Go to www.braunsteinspeaks.com and see what an ultra right wing conservative has to say about this. He is definitely accusing the Clintons and suggests that after Mr. Sinclair has oulived his usefulness he will end up like Vince Foster did.

                                                 SOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:19 PM

"Deputy White House counsel Vince Foster was found dead in Fort Marcy Park off the George Washington Parkway in Virginia, outside Washington, D.C., on July 20, 1993. His death was ruled a suicide by all official investigations. Nevertheless, some independent investigators object to this conclusion."

from the Wikipedia in the event ya don't recall Mr Foster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:21 PM

This type of thing can smear two different ways. Some idiots are going to believe it's true. And other idiots who don't believe it just might think it was started by the Clintons if you tell that lie often enough. Very clever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:26 PM

Cui bono?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:28 PM

There are always any number of things that an idiot might think. Make any assertion whatever about anything or anyone whatsoever, and those who most want to believe it will believe it. Repeat it frequently, and the strength of their belief will increase. (For instance, the world is now full of people who think that Ahmadinejad said that Iran would "wipe Israel off the map". He didn't say that. Not even close.)

One caution, though. Remember...when you're driving it's always the other guy that's "the idiot". Funny how that works.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:34 PM

Yeah. Things do get twisted,.

"Ahmadinejad made his remarks in a speech Wednesday to 4,000 students attending a conference called "The World Without Zionism." He was quoting the late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, who led the 1979 Islamic revolution that established Iran's theocratic government and made fierce opposition to Israel a matter of political orthodoxy.

Ahmadinejad also called the 1948 establishment of Israel, on territory also claimed by Palestinians, the fall of "the last trench of Islam."

Virulent anti-Israel sentiment remains strong in the hard-line circles from which Ahmadinejad emerged to win the presidential election in June. "Israel Should Be Wiped Off the Map" was the slogan draped on a Shahab-3 ballistic missile during a military parade in Tehran a month ago. Six of the missiles, which, with a 1,250 mile range, could reach Israel, were the high point of the parade. "We Will Trample America Under Our Feet," read another banner."


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:34 PM

"when you're driving it's always the other guy that's "the idiot". Funny how that works."

Hey - I've noticed that too! I wish the rest of the world would drive as well as we do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:37 PM

Then a year and a half later it was this:


Wheels within wheels within wheels . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:41 PM

RabbiSol, Braunstein is hardly as certain as you imply (The thrust of his thinking is that whoever is behind the story, it hardly matters whether it is true; the timing of the release of the story just before the all-important primaries is the thing):

"This story has everything that the Clintons could have hoped for: Oral gay sex, crack-cocaine use by the black candidate (Mr. Sinclair's choice of cocaine was of the white powder variety, as "befitting" a white man) and Internet support for lie detector tests all around. Most importantly, however, is that there is no real way to confirm or deny these charges without a proper vetting, and that would take a minimum of several weeks.

"This is a life and death gamble for whoever is behind this latest sleaze. If it is indeed the Clintons who are behind it, they better pray that their fingerprints are never found—and the best way to insure that, is for Mr. Larry Sinclair to suddenly pull a Vince Foster, once his limited usefulness has ended."


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:58 PM

Rabbi, I posted that motel room video of Sinclair reading his script 4 weeks ago as wel as a thread devoted to the coming Right Wing accusations against Barak 4 months ago, called Obama's Goose is Cooked. Hopefully Obama will be immune from what most people already expect from right wing shock jocks like Limpbog and Hanitwity.

Next to come...bathroom hand signal accusations, affair with Lewinski's younger sister, Saving and Loan scandel, missing National Guard records, improper emails to Congressional pages, adding earmarks to protect Drug companies at 3 AM Sunday, no bid contracts to personal family friends, Lying about having straight sex, having Rick Barton, a campaign contributor of $25 dollars, indicted by the attorney general and HLS for terrorist conspiracy/thoughts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 05:08 PM

I beseech you as a Rabbi to reconsider the use of that word in a negative way. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Scanner
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 06:28 PM

My definition of "swiftboating" is spreading political lies to intentionally ruin the reputation of a candidate as was done to John Kerry by the Bush-Cheney campaign in 2004. How do you want me to use this word in a positive way?

                                                    SOL
                                     (on my wife's computer)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 06:37 PM

Sol, to someone who served in Vietnam, or who had family or friends who did, using the word "Swiftboat" as a generic word for vile slander is rather like calling an Orthodox Jew in Jerusalem a Nazi for stoning a car that is on the road on Shabbat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 06:47 PM

Art,
Using the word as a NOUN, you would be correct. I am sure that those who served their country honorably in Vietnam, (I also had close friends who did), on swiftboats did so with the utmost courage and conviction. However, using the word as a VERB (as in being swiftboated), has unfortunately taken on a pejorative connotation in light of the 2004 presidential campaign. It was much the same as having Michael Dukakis run against Willie Horton instead of Papa Bush.

                                                      SOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 06:57 PM

And worse yet, O'bama is an Irish name.

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:02 PM

RabbiSol hardly invented the current connotation. I'm sure we have all seen reference made to 'swiftboating'. (If the Swiftboat incident had not been such a notorious and ultimately successful libel the noun would never have made it into today's lexicon.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:08 PM

Swift segue here: Art, I've forgotten: How do you pronounce your last name? Last week when I was chatting with Michael Smith (from Chicago) I would have liked to ask him if he knew you but I figured my credibility would appear too low if I couldn't even say your name. All I remember is that Thieme does NOT rhyme with Thyme. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:11 PM

Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thieme?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:13 PM

It happens. I imagine the Watergate is no worse than any other big hotel, but that didn't save it from becoming the basis of an all purpose way of referring to any public scandal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:16 PM

This was a respected member of the plant community until you-know-who got in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:18 PM

So, it's all about blowjobs? But, not about the world getting blown... to pieces? Sad eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:31 PM

Seen that guy Larry Sinclair? Seen Michelle Obama?

Not exactly too convincing, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:40 PM

To those who object to the negative references to swiftboats, I'm afrraid you're fighting a losing battle.

John Kerry himself served aboard swiftboats (Fast Patrol Craft) during the Vietnam War. It was a group of alleged swiftboatsmen who didn't even know Kerry and had no first-hand information about him until he took his anti-war stance with the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, who, decades later when Kerry became a candidate for the Presidency, attacked his war record with libels and slanders (none of which was ever substantiated) and who have caused the term "swiftboat" to go into the political lexicon as meaning "spreading scurrilous lies about a politician or political candidate in an attempt to ruin his or her reputation." It was a small group of swiftboaters, disgruntled by Kerry's antiwar stance, who have themselves caused "swiftboat" to become a negative political term, and it actually has nothing to do with the bravery or gallantry of the crews of the swiftboats—save for the few who engaged in those slanders.

"Swiftboat" has become a political expression in the same way that "Watergate" has. The Watergate Hotel Complex in Washington, D. C. is a perfectly nice hotel where the Democratic National Committee had its offices. On June 17th, 1972, the offices were burgled by overzealous Republicans who were searching for information and attempting to set up bugs on the Committee's phones. They got caught, and the resultant scandal and investigation resulted, which eventually led to Richard Nixon's resignation as President. It henceforth became known as the "Watergate scandal."

This has nothing to do with the quality of the facilities and service one would find were one to stay at the Watergate Hotel. I'm quite sure that the owners and managers of the hotel complex are not happy about the association, but once the expression went into the media, there was nothing anyone could do about it.

Nor, as I said, does the political usage of the term "swiftboat" have anything to do with the bravery of the swiftboat crews per se, save for those who sold their integrity by participating in a political smear campaign.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 08:01 PM

The "swiftboat" campaign against Kerry worked because he made himself vulnerable to it by playing up his status as a "war hero". If he had played down his military service as "only doing his duty" the swiftboaters would have had nothing to shoot at.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 08:24 PM

jThat's easy to say now, BDL. Keep in mind that they were intent on stopping Kerry's presidential bid; if these efforts had not been successful they would have tried others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 10:57 PM

Theem.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: freightdawg
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 11:18 PM

Thank you Bee-dubya-ell,

I have wanted to say the same thing for a long time, but figured I'd be a blade of grass in a hurricane.

Kerry sealed his own fate by trying to make himself out to be a war hero. Everyone seems to think that the veterans who spoke out against him were a bunch of crazed neanderthals who made up a bunch of stuff and threw it at Kerry, hoping some of it would stick. The fact is Kerry made a lot of veterans very angry by his post war antics, and when he tried to "re-invent" himself, ala Bubba Clinton, they were ready for him.

Kerry wanted to be Kennedy reincarnated, complete with an up-to-date PT 109 story. This time it didn't fly. Kerry was no Kennedy, and his "I was a war hero before I hated the war before I loved the war" rhetoric just became too nauseating for some real vets to stomach. They gave their opinion, that Kerry was unfit for leadership. I, for one, am glad they did. It let me know that (1) many men served with honor in the Swift Boats, and (2) Kerry was not one of them.

Freightdawg


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 12:51 AM

Interesting angle, freightdawg. Yes, Kerry and the Democratic Party shamelessly exploited the "war hero" angle, because they thought it would be a great way to undercut George Bush and get votes. The Republicans shamelessly exploited the Jane Fonda angle and the swift boaters' attacks on Kerry, because they thought it would be a good way to take votes away from him.

It was crassly manipulative behaviour on both sides, in my opinion, but absolutely typical of what they both do at election time. Party politics in presidential campaigns is truly a sickening spectacle to behold. The attempt is so often made to reach the lowest common denominator and appeal to people's worst instincts and prejudices.

What in the world does being a war hero have to do with being a good civilian leader? I want a war hero if I'm about to fight a pitched battle and I need experienced men to do the fighting. I want someone with quite different qualifications to run a government, I can assure you. A government is supposed to negotiate, find compromises, administrate, regulate, govern, pass laws, bring together different factions and find solutions to differences. A warrior is supposed to fight a battle on the field of war with an "enemy" and win it...or die trying. Those are utterly different jobs, and they have very little in common.

To run a "war hero" for high political office (as if being a war hero had anything to do with it) is just downright silly. It's a primitive appeal to people's emotions. Typical campaign tactics, in other words....although I cannot recall any Canadian politician who ran for office on the basis of being a "war hero". It seems to be a very American phenomenon.

Take John McCain for instance. Why should his war experiences have anything to do with his electability? Man, you would think it was ancient Rome or something. The Romans just loved elevating their most famous war heros to the halls of civil power. Why? Because they lived to conquer. They conquered virtually every place they could physically reach. Think about that.

Nations that persist in electing (or appointing) famous war leaders and war heros to high office are dangerous nations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 01:26 AM

Even more dangerous are the ones who imagine themselves war heroes, and who are eager to send our troops to fight and die, never having experienced the reality of war themselves (for instance, our current crop of chicken hawks).


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 09:02 AM

Thanks for your thanks, freight dawg, but I think we've come to similar conclusions via totally different routes. To make myself perfectly clear, I have no use for war heroes. I was hugely disappointed that Kerry's campaign emphasized his war record and virtually ignored his anti-war activism. If he had run a true anti-war campaign and ignored his own military service, the swift-boaters would have had nothing to attack. He copped out and wound up shooting himself in the foot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Amos
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 09:26 AM

IF you accept the record of those who were there, it was not Kerry's position that shot him in the foot, but those who saw fit to lie about events. The whole smear campaign was as disgusting as any political manuver ever pulled. Demonstrating courage and presence of mind under battle conditions is a perfectly legitimate citation for a candidate's qualifications -- not a complete set, by any means, but not irrelevant either. Kerry also showed remarkable courage in standing up against the war after he returned Stateside. He could have made enemies in either phase.

What really annoyed me about the Swift Boat smear campaign was the alacrity with which some people uncritically bought the line.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:18 AM

I agree Amos & the same can be said in reverse for our present Bush. One look at his past should've sent up a red flag. I always thought that his DWI driving record (along with Cheney's) was plenty & certinly enough to make one think that if he can't drive a car properly what makes anyone think that he could drive a nation. Now about his war record.........

I believe MaCain already knows not to bring his past POW yrs to this table. Of couse someone could always raise the issue of the intell that MaCain forked over under torture while a POW. Whose above starting that engine up to get the Swiftboat's motors running?

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:44 AM

"the alacrity with which some people uncritically bought the line"

Well, sure. People always buy a line with alacrity as long as it is aimed at a target they already disapprove of.

If someone came up with a brand new (but as yet unproven) line of attack on George Bush or Dick Cheney, wouldn't most people here buy it with alacrity? ;-) Wouldn't they assume it was probably true?

Everybody has inside them a deep and abiding yearning to see their prejudices confirmed, and they're ever on the lookout for further confirmation. It's human nature.

The politicians and media people know this, and they play up to it constantly. They would not be able to play up to it so effectively, however, if the general electorate was better informed about realities in the outside world than is presently the case. (Only 23% of college graduates in the USA could even find Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Iran on a world map in a recent poll!) The fact that so many people apparently believed that Iraq was a real threat to the world in 2003 demonstrates that the general electorate is not terribly well informed. The same game is being played now in regards to Iran. No one has to prove that Iran really has nuclear weapons or is really trying to get them to raise a war scare. All that has to be done is to raise vague fears that Iran might be doing so. The mere suggestion, frequently repeated, is enough.

Well, you don't arrest or kill someone on the premise that he might someday commit a crime, do you? That's the self-defence technique once marketed in National Lampoon as a joke. It was called Lapp-Goch. It worked on the premise that you kill other people FIRST, just in case they might be thinking of killing you. That is the principle the USA has been applying to nations like Iraq and Iran, and it's in total violation of international law. It is illegal to threaten to attack someone, and it's illegal to attack someone else first, both in civil law and international law...for the most obvious reasons.

Hell, I could use the same excuse to kill my neighbour and steal his house... "He was stockpiling weapons and planning to attack me! I had to stop him before he carried out his evil plan."

It's the Big Lie. You simply accuse the other guy of planning to do exactly what you yourself ARE doing...to him. That's what the USA did to Iraq in 2003. That's what the USA has been gearing up for a few years now to do to Iran....although the logistical arguments against doing it at this point are so huge that I have some hopes it won't happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: freightdawg
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 01:59 PM

Bee-dubya-ell, I wasn't intending to suggest your interpretation and my interpretation were identical...I just thought I would give you credit for uttering the unutterable...

Little Hawk, I see a (subtle??) shift in the way candidates have been using military experience over the years. I do not think that Eisenhower, Kennedy, the first Bush, etc, were using their military experience as "war heroism." I think it was more of a, "if I have experienced the hell of war, either as a good soldier or as a command leader, then I can certainly lead in a time of peace", assuming, as it were, that leadership in a time of peace is easier than leadership in a time of war. However, if a war needed to be waged, then "I've been there."

In fact, Clinton was the first President in decades that did not serve in some form of the armed services, either active or reserve. Reference to one's military service may have been viewed as simply checking one more box on the resume qualifier.

My take on the whole Kerry debacle was that he was trying to up the ante and proclaim himself to be a hero...going above and beyond the pale of duty. When this was flatly rejected, he had no anwer. In short, Kerry Swiftboated himself.

Where I see the term "Swiftboated" as being illegitmate is its use when any bizzare accusation is brought against a politician. In the context of this thread, the ONLY way someone could say that Obama is being "Swiftboated" is if Obama made his heterosexuality and his purity in regard to drug use a leading aspect of his campaign. I don't know about the first, but he has openly admitted drug "experimentation" in his past. You cannot "Swift Boat" someone who admits a weakness, only someone who makes an exagerated claim of heroism or perfection.

Therefore, as a matter of definition, Obama cannot be "Swift Boated" on the issue of drugs, because he is not claiming to be a "drug free hero."

One other pet peeve...it was AL GORE who brought the Willie Horton issue against Dukakis. The Republicans gladly accepted the gift and used it with glee, but lets give credit where credit is due...

Freightdawg


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 02:02 PM

Yes, there has been that subtle shift, just as you say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: gnu
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 02:12 PM

From: CarolC, 19 Feb 08 - 01:26 AM

"... chicken hawks"

That is PRICELESS!!!! Send that to Bill Maher with an invoice!

Hehehehehe... I am still laughing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 02:16 PM

I wish I could take credit for it, gnu, but I can't. I don't remember where I first heard it, but it might have been JtS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Amos
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 02:34 PM

Well, it's been in common parlance for a couple of decades, I think...


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 02:39 PM

Just check back in any of the political threads. I have used it on a number of occasions, as have many. As Amos points out, it is a commonly used term in the political arena. HERE IS WHAT WIKIPEDIA says about the term.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Amos
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 02:42 PM

FUrthermore, it is not a function purely of what the candidate says abotu himselgf, assuming he has reasonable support. It is the underhanded launching of false tales to discredit a person, in an organized fashion. Whether he should or should not have promoted it as an item, Kerry was arguably what we call a war hero, distinguished in combat. His actual accomplishments were derogated and turned against him by people bearing false witness to nullify his public image. THAT's what Swiftboating is. And you can bet there will be more of it levied against Obama.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 03:01 PM

Disgraceful shit, from folks that pass themselves off as uber patriots. They show that they are really opportunistic whores that care little for the values they espouse so loudly. Their real agenda has nothing to do with those values, but more to do widening the gap between the richest and the rest. Shame on those who are so mentally lazy that they just fall back to their cliche'd biases and allow a man who served honorably to have his service besmirched.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 03:30 PM

Freightdog, you are keeping bad company.

Was it Al Gore?


"Conservative commentators have taken to repeating the mantra that Al Gore introduced Willie Horton, the inflammatory racial symbol who enlivened the 1988 presidential race, to political debate in America. On Oct. 24, William Kristol, editor and publisher of the Weekly Standard, said on ABC's This Week:

"Gore's a mean, tough political fighter. Gore is the one who introduced Willie Horton to American politics in the 1988 primary against Mike Dukakis."

************************
"Gore never mentioned that Horton was black; indeed, he never mentioned Horton by name. He merely drew attention, correctly, to the damaging fact that Dukakis had tolerated a furlough program for especially violent criminals in his state even after a horrific incident strongly suggested this was a bad policy."

*************************

"Now recall what the Republicans did with Horton's story: An "independent expenditure" group aired an ad for Bush showing a picture of Horton. A Republican fund-raising letter in Maryland showed pictures of Dukakis and Horton alongside the following text: "Is this your pro-family team for 1988?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 04:03 PM

I don't think that the current sparring between the Clinton and Obama campaigns about possible speech plagerism will be enough to float a swiftboat, or waterboard a candidate (how's that for pulling it all together!).

Anyone taking bets on who will win in Wisconsin or Hawaii? The polling appears to be close in both races, between Clinton and Obama.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:34 PM

It's funny how memories change. Eight years ago, I think I would have said that Mr. Gore was slow to respond to the slanderous comments made by "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth" (many of whom never served in the Swifts, some of whom were never involved in riverine operations at all, and whose funding came from a person who never served in the military) because he really wasn't particularly emphasizing his military service and wasn't prepared to counter attacks on that topic. Oh well, memories and history evolve over time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:04 PM

Couldn't agree more that Kerry deciding to go pro-gung ho and play down his anti-war history is what lost him the race--all because he did the same thing Al Gore did--ignore the Democratic party base to appeal to the corporate wing of the Democratic party, the Reagan Democrats (who supported Bush's Iraq follies) and McCain's independents (who also supported Bush's Iraq follies).

A huge miscalculation I have a sinking feeling the Democratic party is likely getting ready to repeat. And if the Dem nom can't beat the Repub this year, they don't deserve to rule the nation.

Of course, I said that in 2000 and 2004 too.

I agree about the voting for warrior presidents changing over time, but not significantly. It has been very subtle, if at all among a lot of the electorate that actually votes. For the WWII generation, it is still a huge deal. For the majority of baby boomers, it is still fairly significant, especially among those who supporetd the Iraq follies as vengeance for 9/11. And man, there were a LOT of those people who voted for Bush in 2004.

Finally, I don't know that the Dukakis loss was due to Willie Horton. I've always thought it was due to that photo that was worth a million bucks to the Republicans...


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:40 PM

Dukaiis in a tank was more significant than Bush in a flight suit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:50 PM

Absolutely. Bush looked very comfortable in his fly boy suit, because he had been one.

Dukakis looked like a MAJOR DORK. Also, the Bush swagger in the fly boy suit was done AFTER he was elected president, AFTER 9/11, and AFTER Baghdad fell, on his way to proclaim Mission Accomplished. Those pictures only helped his image and stature among the voting public.

Dukakis, not so much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:35 PM

In the flight suit, GWB *had* a major dork.

Double entendre intended.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:39 PM

You used to be able to get a 12-inch action figure of Bush in that flight suit. Completely posable. Able to assume any position the human body can get into.

I predict that those things will be worth a small fortune on Ebay soon. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:09 PM

I agree with Guest. Dukakis let the other side define him, and the picture in the tank really did a lot to seal the deal. Aside from the fact that he looked ridiculous, it was so apparent as to be ridiculous that he was pandering for votes.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Amos
Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:21 PM

Well, the voting public that I talked to at the time sure didn't think those things awarded him any stature. As I recall the actual pilot was nearly crapping himself because his passenger seat was occupied by the President of the US AND a loose cannon, both at the same time. Mission Accomplished was sheer codswallop, and most people saw right throught he pretentiouness of it.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:19 AM

Well, but it was a perfect occasion for some grand bloviation, wasn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Amos
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:37 AM

Gnashing of teeth and national mourning, more like.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: GUEST,geminess
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:38 PM

This story seems to have been circulating for about a month. The MSm won't touch it. There is reason to believe that Ron Paul supporters (not the Paul camp) have made an orchestrated effort to sabatoge and swiftboat Obama, basically because of his race. I have viewed hundreds of comments from "supporters" of Sinclair on the You Tube site and noticed similar postings under different names..almost verbatim. www.dearmurray.com pretty much pegs it on the ron paul aspect.

It is well known that the Ron Paul camp has ties to white supremicists, and now their (pardon the pun)..."true colors" are showing. This is a poor man's attempt at swiftboating indeed. The only question I have is who is supplying Sinclair with the $10,000 to take the lie detector test and the $100,000 if he passes it? (See article in www.whitehouse.com...not affiliated with www.whitehouse.gov.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:59 PM

What a shame that the only Republican candidate who is honest about US foreign policy should have white supremacists among his supporters. Well, I guess you can't necessarily control what all your supporters happen to believe in, can you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 04:42 PM

Frankly, I don't see anything in Paul personally, or anything that he's done or said, that would encourage those kinds of folks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:08 AM

...the alacrity with which some people uncritically bought the line.

The real problems are those people that STILL buy the line, despite the conclusive proof to the contrary. There's a disgrcefully large number of 'em.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:34 AM

Back to Obama being swiftboated, this morning a lady called in on Washington Journal to announce that Muslim operatives have taken control of the elctronic voting machines, and they are in the process of getting Obama elected. In which case, he could simply surrender, and the US would be theirs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 12:36 PM

LOL!!! And then what? God, the state of fantasy some people live in....


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 12:39 PM

Yeah, the caller didn't project any long range plans of any kind, just the bloodless coup...


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 12:44 PM

I can just see the new USA Islamic order trying to get all the Americans to get down on their knees 3 times a day and pray to Mecca....stop eating pork...put burkas on the women and cover their heads with scarves....change all the churches into mosques....replace all the Bibles with fresh new copies of the Koran...

LOL!!!!!!!!!! Talk about the world's most unlikely scenario. About as unlikely as the Southern Baptists taking over Saudi Arabia in a bloodless coup and putting Billy Graham in charge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 02:37 PM

Which is what Ann Coulter wanted Bush to do!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 02:52 PM

But if you tried to put a burka on Ann Coulter, it'd get all torn up on the sharp, bony angles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 03:16 PM

But she'd look so much better that way!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 04:04 PM

Well, Muslim women are also supposed to hold their tongues. Can we get both?



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 04:10 PM

LOL!!! Geez, you gotta tell that to some of the Muslim women I know in Ontario...a feisty and independent lot, and in general they can talk the paint off a post, given half the chance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 04:13 PM

Well, in Ann Coulter was going to hold her tongue, she'd have to hang on with both hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 04:42 PM

She'd probably get a bad case of epileptic seizures from trying, but I would enjoy watching the effort.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 09:04 PM

"This story seems to have been circulating for about a month."

Well, now the MSM is too busy chasing the McCain and that slut story.

Sounds like the Rove/Limbaugh wing of the Republican party is hard at work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Cluin
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 09:11 PM

You'd have to be either crazy or incredibly stupid to want to be president.


Explains a lot, actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:00 PM

Or tremendously ambitious (it runs in certain families). Or filled with a quixotic desire to "change things".

Someone's got to do it and certain people are born to take on those sorts of challenges.

I mean, look, you'd have to be crazy or stupid to be a prizefighter too, I think, but there's always someone out there who'll do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:14 PM

It's an honorable thing, in some cases -- some people have a sens eof duty, some have a strong hope to make things different and better. Others just want power.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Cluin
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:16 PM

And some are masochistic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obama Swiftboated
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:32 PM

I think that Richard Nixon would kind of fit that type.


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