What is Acoustic Rock?

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 01:57 PM

However, if you took eclectic instruments and put them on a plane, would that be--sorry, gotta go.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 01:43 PM

"If you took the electric music and put it on acoustic instruments, would it sound like folk (whatever you consider folk to be)?"

You could of course, listen to Rubber Soul - The Beatles and then listen to Rubber Folk - various artists (the folk interpretation of Rubber Soul)

Charlotte (can't think why I didn't think of this before)

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Ernest
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 01:42 PM

Grab: Depending where you count singer/songwriters one or two of your tests wouldn`t work...

Would Cliff give a damn?

Regards
Ernest (are these brackets contagious, Charlotte? ;0)

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 01:40 PM

"Emo" stands for Emotional Hardcore. It is definitely NOT ARSS music.

Well, Ruth, you probably know more about this than I do, although regional/national differences may have something to do with it. I have only heard the term in reference to self-indulgent singing of "original compositions" in a mostly-ascoustic coffeehouse setting, in New Orelans, LA, USA. To my mind, the term seemed to denote music aspiring to "ARSS" status and falling short.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Grab
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 01:29 PM

The easiest way...

If you took the electric music and put it on acoustic instruments, would it sound like folk (whatever you consider folk to be)?

If if you took the acoustic music and put it on electric instruments, would it sound like rock (whatever you consider rock to be)?

Graham.

(And test 3: If you took the combined efforts of everyone to define the words "folk" and "rock" and dropped them off a cliff, would anyone who listens to the music give a damn?)

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 01:27 PM

"The critics would have us think their opinion is valuable, but it is only valuable to those who can't make up their own minds".

and this your opinion, right? So, I'll ignore it and make up my own mind, if you don't mind.

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 01:20 PM

The critics would have us think their opinion is valuable, but it is only valuable to those who can't make up their own minds. Those who can, do. Those who can't, criticize.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer (stiill cookieless)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 01:13 PM

"The public is the only critic whose opinion is worth anything at all."

In which case we're ALL doomed... tradsters and singersongers alike.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:47 PM

"The public is the only critic whose opinion is worth anything at all."

Precisely what I was trying to say in my post of 12:06. Thanks for clarifying my thoughts, Bruce!

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: GUEST,highlandman
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:38 PM

Diane writes:

>the deleted guest poster towards the beginning
>
>. . . was instructing people to "ignore" me. Then relented and >declared that how I described an ARSS's output was "funny".
>

Don't go impugnin' on me honor, now, matey.*

May I clear the record? The original unidentified guest poster was NOT highlandman.

I post as "guest, highlandman" because I am too lazy to fight with the cookie-eating demon that lives in my computer. I always identify myself although I may not be logged in, except when I forget, in which case I always make it right afterward.

I did post as myself afterward to get in a friendly dig at Diane at the original (deleted) guest's expense. Surely Diane realizes that her online persona is legendarily abrasive and worthy of the occasional left-handed compliment, which is what my "funny" remark was meant to be. Not that I think any crap singer-songwriter's output is particularly funny (how some people turn things around!), I just got a chuckle out of the ARSS poke and (not being an fRoots denizen) I had never heard it and credited Diane with making it up on the spot.

But I'm glad my post was deleted because without the original one there it looked completely random.

Ah, forget it. I actually had something to say on the thread topic but now I don't remember what it was.

-Glenn (who is and always will remain highlandman)

===
* -- lest I be scathed for presuming to refer to anyone as 'matey,' I suppose I should cite this as a quote from Barbossa of "Pirates of the Caribbean."
-G

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:37 PM

"Albion (with or without John Tams, Charlotte!)"

I was merely quoting an article I was reading, I, like my Dad and late Mom, enjoy any of the line ups of Tee Albion Band(s)so please.....

Charlotte (has The Battle of the Field(with no John Tams) in the CD player as we speak)

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:36 PM

Heaven forfend it should be quiet. Trad is wonderful music, as is much contemporary material from singer-songwriters, many of the aforementioned remarks notwithstanding. Have a NICE day.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:36 PM

Quietly? Bloody hell, that's be a challenge...

:)

I miss Tom Forrest.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:33 PM

Ruth's favourite tune is traditional (I think) and is played by the Yetties every Sunday morning on R4,
She collected her second fave from Tom Forrest, an old yokel in The Bull pub (aka Bob Arnold), a trad ditty called The Village Pump.
Ruth Archer's standpoint represents a rapidly growing body of opinion intent on valuing and disseminating our wealth of tradition and national heritage.
And absolutely not quietly.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:28 PM

That's fine Gene, and I'm not trying to disagree, just offering opinion. But Jethro Tull have delved into folk rock, it would be wrong to classify them as only that! Fairport, Steeleye, Albion (with or without John Tams, Charlotte!),Oysterband, etc, those are your folk rock bands. On that previous post you made it seem as though you were saying that some obvious folk or trad performers, like MacColl were only "folk" when they used a recognized folk melody. Thats what got me scratching my head

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:28 PM

"she is in a small and dwindling minority."

Evidence, please? As it happens, I'm about to go to dinner with a bunch of musicians and singers, many of whom have already been mentioned on this thread. I don't think most of them would consider you a folk singer, Gene, but they might think of you you a singer-songwriter. Nothing wrong with that, IMHO. By the way, they're not old farts, either: several of them are under 30, or hovering thereabouts.

Peace: Trad chorus every time. I prefer the Sunday morning omnibus version myself.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:27 PM

How DARE they call you a folksinger. The NERVE!

Good to see you, CB.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:27 PM

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen

- Anon

Charlotte (whose favourite composer is, of course, Trad. Arr.)

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:27 PM

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Gene Burton - PM
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:06 PM

irishenglish, I don't think we're actually disagreeing on anything here. "folk musicians/singers, and labelled as such"- yes, and with good reason. Jethro Tull I'd place pretty squarely in the category of "folk-rock"; ie. folk songs played with rock instrumentation- a different albeit related genre.

For my own part; all I can say is everybody who's seen me at gigs, open mic nights or wherever and has spoken to me offering a description, would describe me as a folksinger. The vast majority of those who've heard me at my (these days sporadic) forays into folk clubs, too. Never been called acoustic rock by anybody who's listened to more than three bars of my music, which was why yesterday's dig was a new one on me, I must admit. But, like I say,
judge for yourselves.
yesterdays dig,are you an archaeologist as well .

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:25 PM

"The public is the only critic whose opinion is worth anything at all."

Mark Twain

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:21 PM

Do you follow that with a rock chorus

"Dum dum de de" or a trad chorus of "De de dum de"?

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:20 PM

Joan/Ruth/Whoever is of course perfectly entitled to her opinion, but she is in a small and dwindling minority. Mercy, they ain't dying quietly, though!!

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:19 PM

My favourite tune goes like this:

Dum de dum de dum de dum, Dum de dum de da da....

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:18 PM

What kind of music does Ruth Archer sing?

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:16 PM

Pretends to look for some sheet music

Charlotte (head inside Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:13 PM

Fine!

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:10 PM

" I can say is everybody who's seen me at gigs, open mic nights or wherever and has spoken to me offering a description, would describe me as a folksinger."

I've seen you sing.

I wouldn't.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:10 PM

Sorry Gene - that last post wasn't meant to be dig at you...

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer (Coookieless)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:09 PM

I agree with Ruth and Diane. Traditional music and music rooted in tradition just about covers it.

Of course, give it five minutes and every two-bit singer of introspective navelgazery will abandon folk and claim to be 'rooted in tradition'...

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:06 PM

irishenglish, I don't think we're actually disagreeing on anything here. "folk musicians/singers, and labelled as such"- yes, and with good reason. Jethro Tull I'd place pretty squarely in the category of "folk-rock"; ie. folk songs played with rock instrumentation- a different albeit related genre.

For my own part; all I can say is everybody who's seen me at gigs, open mic nights or wherever and has spoken to me offering a description, would describe me as a folksinger. The vast majority of those who've heard me at my (these days sporadic) forays into folk clubs, too. Never been called acoustic rock by anybody who's listened to more than three bars of my music, which was why yesterday's dig was a new one on me, I must admit. But, like I say,
judge for yourselves

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:04 PM

""Trad" will not do"

John Tams has used the term popular music

Charlotte (currently reading an old interview with John Tams)

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:02 PM

"Emo" stands for Emotional Hardcore. It is definitely NOT ARSS music.

I'm with Diane in thinking that people who appreciate music rooted in the tradition need to abandon the F word altogether. It is doing us more harm than good.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:00 PM

Actually, I think rock is primarily rhythmic not melodic. That may assist in your hunt for a definition for it.

Diane - "Trad" will not do and you perhaps more than most should be able to see why. Just use "folk" correctly and sneer at the ignorami.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:58 AM

Hereabouts, among the young, I understand that the new(-ish) and relatively precise term for the genre of performance that most of us old folks hate, that most-self-indulgent and self-pitying kind of adolescent "singer-songwriter" crap, is "EMO." For "emotional," I assume.

Whatever "acoustic rock" may be, I would like to stipulate that it's not exactly the same thing as "folk rock." The former is defined by sound, the latter by lyrical content and attitude.

James Taylor performing a Marvin Gaye song, for example, is acoustic rock. Maybe even Tom Rush doing Chuck Berry and Bo Diddly, as he did way back in 1964 or so on his first LP. More recent examples are of course too numerous to mention

The Byrds and the Grateful Dead are folk rock, though perhaps not for every song they do. (The Dead would occasionally perform "unplugged" and thus qualify as Acoustic Rock as well, but their usual instrumentation and approach was highly electrified and "non-acoustic," while their songwriting, on the other hand, was always deeply rooted in American folk traditions.)

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:58 AM

Shock horror! US murders Australian culture? Is Barry McKenzie in there anywhere?

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer (cookieless)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:53 AM

And Alasdair Roberts and - some of the time - Sharron Kraus.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:52 AM

But Gene, to be fair, you started talking off about rock, and the people you just mentioned all have their hand in the tradition, they are folk musicians/singers, and are labelled as such. Now, someone like Jethro Tull have had a lot of folk related melodies in their music, and they have done a handful of traditional songs over the years as well. But I consider when they do that, the material is folk inspired, it doesn't classify as folk. See the difference?

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:51 AM

I was about to do a list ... but nearly all mine are on Diane's list so I'll just add Lal Waterson and Steve Ashley.

What I do know is that I wouldn't put the writers of the three songs I mentioned in my post of 11.01 on any such list...

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:49 AM

And, almost forgot, Alisdair Fraser.
Harking back to the mention of Ewan MacColl, most definitely the work of Sandra Kerr who has passed it on to daughter Nancy.
And, also stretching back to the 1970s, the writing of Pete Coe, Bob Pegg and Barry Dransfield.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Green Man
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:49 AM

Buddy Holly - that's rockn roll int it? Goes well on an acoustic?

I used to tdo an acoustic version of my genration. what with my grey hair and all that it went down well when I wasnt having a senior moment and forgetting the words.

Rock on Folkies...

GM

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:43 AM

melodies and or instrumental styles which draw on trad

Work composed in the tradition such as that of John Tams, Chris Wood, John Dipper, Rob Harbron, Duncan McFarlane, Tom Bliss . . . could go on and on but I'm losing the will to live amid this daftness and lack of ability to recognise the bleedin' obvious.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:41 AM

Example? Much of Richard Thompson's recorded output. Dylan's early albums. Bert Jansch's early albums. Much of Ewan MacColl's songwriting (OK, I'm not a fan, but clearly grounded in the tradition nonetheless). Kate Rusby, where she uses traditional tunes with her own words, or vice versa...(actually there are quite a few people in the folk world today doing that). Some, though not all, of my own work. And in fact a fair few of the acts you might catch at folk club guest nights in the UK (though they're by no means the only ones doing it).

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer (cookieless)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:38 AM

"For God's sake, enough! You want to trash each other, do it in private!"

Actually, we're unfailingly polite to each other in private!

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:34 AM

Don't want to trash anybody. Just rather discuss the music I love and exchange good-natured banter with likeminded people without being slandered and verbally abused.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:33 AM

Gene-melodies and or instrumental styles which draw on trad. folk. Example?

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:33 AM

Ah soul, Mr Happy!

G

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:33 AM

"he's written this dirge about how his girlfriend left him and it's just NOT FAIR."

then there's that fine old trad. arr I Wish I Was Single Again inwhich the singer whinges about how is wife won't leave him and is making his life a complete misery and how that's NOT FAIR :-D

Charlotte (looking outside the box)

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:33 AM

My friend Chandler Travis, who writes and sings songs and fronts a very non-acoustic ensemble heavy on horns and electric guitar, titled one of his albums "Writer/Songsinger." Would that be an acceptable alternative term now that "singer/songwriter" has acquired so many unintended negative connotations?

Perhaps "ARWS" would be preferable to "ARSS."

Back to "acoustic rock":

What's electric about garden-variety rock 'n' roll is not electric intrumentation ~ it's the electric guitar, which produces an sound entirely different from that of the acoustic guitar. The degree of difference is incomparably greater than the difference between amplified and unamplified trumpets and saxophones, drums with and without microphones on them, or even between electric and acoustic bass.

The electric guitar IS rock, on some level. The sound of acoustic guitar, on the other hand, is something else; something we have great difficulty defining, incidentally.

"Acoustic Rock" is music with a rock 'n' roll beat and/or sensibility, in which you can hear the ringing sound of acoustic guitar string ~ occasionally instead of, but more often in addition to, the sound of an electric guitar and perhaps a few other non-acoustic instruments as well.

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:31 AM

For God's sake, enough! You want to trash each other, do it in private!

Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:29 AM

"..oversentimentalised, self-indulgent, mawkish drivel."

Oh, OK- sorry I misunderstood you. I quite agree. The main problem with the glut of sad songs by blokes with acoustic guitars in the charts today, I think, is the fact that most are totally unmemorable, unhummable and lyrically banal. Not the fact that they ARE sad songs by blokes etc., etc. per se.

I still think if a songwriter uses melodies and /or instrumental styles which draw very heavily on traditional folk, there IS a case for the application of the "F" word, though.

(just waiting for somebody to pipe up with "F Off"...)