BS: Arnica

Subject: BS: Arnica
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 09:26 AM

As some of you know, on Christmas Day I f*cked up my left knee (the fact that I was stepping out of a pub for a smoke only goes to prove how bad smoking and/or drinking is for you). Anyway, I tore/twisted the ligaments, the knee swelled as big as a medium-sized melon, pain and so on. After 2 weeks of applying various anti-inflammatory creams and taking some very strong (and illegal in many countries, but I could get them from Greece through my sister) painkillers (Mesulid - now about to become illegal in Greece too), when the knee was not improving much, I went to the doctor. He had a good laugh at my predicament (such being his bed manner) and said it'll be OK, but I should take Ibuprophen (3 x 400mg a day) instead, and NOT rest the knee, or it will seize up. Oh, and I have a bit of loose cartilage floating about in there. Anyway, if it has not gone away in 6 weeks, I should go for arthroscopy. (B*llocks to arthroscopy, I am not about to go for invasive procedures, and anyway in 6 weeks time was the Australian tour, so he'd have to catch me first!)

With the Ibuprophen I saw immediate and continuing improvement. The swelling subsided, the pain went away (almost as good as Mesulid in the circumstances), and then I started feeling the "floating cartilage", which "catches" every few steps and hurt like buggery. Now even that is improving slowly, to the point where I am almost ready to throw away the walking stick I wielded for 4 weeks (though, I have become sort of attached to it, especially as people tend to open doors for me now!). I am at 80% of knee-health though, and need to improve as much as I can, if I am to avoid walking around Australia three-legged. The trouble is that I am worried about continuing to take such high doses of Ibuprophen as it does high blood pressure no good (and I have some of that too, though medication keeps it under control), and also because of the risk of gastric ulcers.

Last week, a good friend, who believes in homeopathy unreservedly, strongly recommended Arnica (tablets and cream) instead of the Ibuprophen. Now, I am a funny mixture of scepticism (my scientific training) coupled with the belief that we haven't yet scratched the surface of all there is to know, and so reasonably open to alternative medicine. I have seen the documentaries and read about the lack of scientific proof for homeopathic remedies (the mumbo-jumbo about the "memory of molecules" is especially laughable in the light of modern science). I am willing to give it a try, though.

What I seek from you is anecdotal info, especially about Arnica in conjunction with sprains etc, possible side-effects and any links with blood pressure. I am looking for comfort, in other words (I have just taken the first two Arnica tablets).

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 09:32 AM

A BBC News item on the use of arnica here George.

The best thing IMO is to regard homeopathy as a 'complimentary' treatment and not an 'alternative' one.

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 09:33 AM

LOL...Oh, George, what shall we do with you? I haven't used it for sprains per se, but when the son had his Great Motorcycle crash, (road rash, bruising, general soreness all over) I fed it to him. I also put arnica gel on the CLOSED bruising along with a comfrey/aloe salve.

He healed so fast that no one could believe it. I have pics the day after the crash and one week later. Very little bruising showing. You need MBS Lynne to check in here.

And look, it can't hurt can it?

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: The PA
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 09:37 AM

Arnica is brill, fantastic stuff. But I have to qualify that by saying the only times we have used it is on the horses. Eventing and showjumping do take a lot out of their legs and even the slightest bruise or swelling gets arnica (cream) slapped all over it. Now I'm not suggesting for a mo that you start galloping around the countryside, but if its good for them, well it can only be good for us? Cant comment on the blood pressure, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 09:51 AM

Arnica was favoured by my granparents - but ONLY EVER EXTERNAL! It was a tincture. Personally wouldn't want to try tablets, it was once considered a poison in fairly small quantities. But then people used to once also take various other goodies, like phenopthalien (original active ingredient in Laxettes!) APC (aspirin, phenactin, codiene) Arsenic, etc, etc, etc.


"mumbo-jumbo about the "memory of molecules"" - I'm with you there George... especially when statistically, there can BE no original molecule due to the very highest dilution ratio, which supposedly is the most potent form...

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 09:53 AM

From E Drug Digest:

If it is swallowed, arnica may cause a rapid increase in blood pressure, which can damage the heart. This possible risk may occur in individuals with no previous history of heart problems, but it may be especially hazardous for individuals with heart conditions or for those who take medications to control high blood pressure. While the oral use of arnica is not recommended for any individual, those with heart conditions should be particularly careful to avoid taking it.

I'd be more worried about my stomach and the anti-clotting effect of Ibuprofen. I didn't know it had a bad effect on blood pressure.

Also, George: do not fear arthroscopy! I've had it, and I'd think the elimination of pain and the knee 'catching' would be worth a little pain and a short recovery period.

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 10:01 AM

...although in homeopathic non-concentrations, I can't see how it would have the same effects.

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 10:27 AM

Ibuprophen is a NSAID [ non steroidal anti-inflamatory drug ] and prolonged use can cause duodenal ulcers, it did this to me, avoid it like the pox.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 10:31 AM

I used to use arnica to keep bruises from blossoming, but not since I found Zheng Gu Shui. I used to take painkillers and muscle relaxants, for years, and was in constant pain. Since I started using this stuff I take no meds except acetaminophen some nights and, if I do injure anything, this speeds up the healing to a day or two, no kidding. You have to be careful not to put on too much as it can make you very cold, but it's really warming down to your bones (it's name translates to "middle bone water") and works wonders. I would urge you to try it out. If you can't get it over there, let me know and I'll send you some.

Heal up!*bg*

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 10:33 AM

Thanks folks. I'm busy sticking my fingers down my throat right now.
Remember me, won't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: GUEST,Elfcall
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 10:39 AM

George

I took large doses of Ibuprofen and eventually became sensitised and my stomach refused to have more.

I currently use diclofenac but also take lansoprazole which protects my stomach. I always take them straight after a meal.

Talk to your GP.

Elfcall

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 10:53 AM

"diclofenac" - I can't use it regularly anymore now.

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:04 AM

(Naah, no good; will have to wait for it to come out the other end now....)

Thanks for the advice folks, especially with regards to the taking of the tablets. It sure sounds as only marginally safer than chewing razorblades. I'll stay with external application for now.

As for the Ibuprophen, I have been meticulous about taking it with food, and have also been taking Losec with it occasionally, to help protect the stomach. Now, I took the last 400mg at 10pm last night, i.e. 18 hours ago, and I am feeling a few twinges but nothing great, and the knee is only a little puffy. Perhaps it's time to start weaning myself off it, then.

The real problem is - can I wean myself off the walking stick? It's my comfort blanket. No, don't... - waaahhh!

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:09 AM

I see folks who carry walking sticks without actually using them except to fend off barking dogs or brats. If you're embarrassed about carrying it, just keep that in mind...could just be as a defence thing. And, if it keeps you from re-injuring your knee, who cares? Just keep it handy!**bg**

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:18 AM

I don't know how you're managing sticking your fingers down your throat and typing at the same time. Just because arnica (non-homeopathic, 'we waved some arnica at it from across the room' non-concentrations) can cause bad things doesn't mean it will.

Ibuprofen isn't addictive and it's an anti-inflammatory, which means it actually helps heal and doesn't simply mask the pain. If you take it with food and your stomach doesn't complain, it's not a bad thing to keep taking it. Check with your doctor though.

('Arnica' - what does YOUR spell checker tell you you should use instead?)

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:19 AM

I have a telescopic walking stick, and I recommend one as a fall back [sic] to take to Oz matey.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:19 AM

nah George, get youself a silver topped cane, a swordtick or better still one of these

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: Jess A
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:54 PM

I've not used Arnica on sprains but had all 4 wisdom teeth taken out (under general anaesthetic) as a teenager and was fed arnica orally on an hourly basis by my mum for the next 2 days and was told by the doc that I healed very quickly. Some swelling but down pretty fast and back to normal in less than a week. My sister had exactly the same thing done with the same treatment and she also healed very quick. No bad side effects for either of us. Of course we were both young fit and healthy and maybe we just healed quickly anyhow. My mum used the same treatment on herself post abdominal surgery and also seemed to heal fast. (NB I've a science background and suffer the same mix of scepticism and surety that modern science doesn't know all the answers).

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:59 PM

Arnica, in homeopathic preparations, works really, really well. And homeopathic tablets are not in any way toxic, no matter what the remedy, owing to the way that they are prepared. Also, unliked any other the other medicines and therapies--they are inexpensive.

I use homeopathy, and see homeopathic physicians (yes, real, licensed MDs, who specialize in Homeopathy, which is a legitimate medical specialty) and it does work. Furthermore, there is a significant body of medical research that shows that it works, some of which is here :Published Research on the Clinical Effectiveness of Homeopathy

Homeopathy is based on a very old observation--which is that, for some reason that no one can quite explain, medical symptoms disappear when treated with small amounts of substances that cause the symptoms in large amounts. Even more inexplicably, the smaller the amount, the more effective the remedies seem to be.

I can't explain it, which is mildly annoying, but in my own experience, I've seen it work repeatedly.

I can give you any number of experiences where Arnica gel relieved twisted ankles, strained backs, bumped knees, and such, but this is the most amusing:

I had an acquaintance who was scheduled for liposuction, which results in a significant amount of temporary bruising and discoloration. I gave her a large tube of Arnica gel, which she applied, though rather sloppily. The results were that the bruising was very light, except for black and blue streaks in the areas she'd missed.

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 01:44 PM

Jeri, it was hard, I admit (re. fingers, throat, keyboard etc). I am still concerned about taking the tablets though - the articles I read that warn about BP etc did not of cours emention at what concentrations these side-effrects occurred... But better safe than sorry, so my Arnicating days are over, at least orally.

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:10 PM

George--of course you may do whatever you think is best for your own health, but if your hesitation is that the remedy may have a toxic effect, you needn't be concerned.

If it is a homeopathic remedy, the amount of arnica that you'd get is considerably less than a drop, in fact less than a hundredth of a drop--more likely a thousandth or even a ten thousandth of a drop, diluted repeatedly according to a carefully standardized procedure--the amount of the actual remedy is infinitessimal, which is why a) it can be sold over the counter as an oral remedy, and b) why many people have trouble believing that it is an effective treatment--

The remedies are safe and inexpensive. If they don't work, you're none the worse off. If they do work, you're ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: Alice
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 03:20 PM

Less than a drop, actually no molecules at all left in homeopathic medicines. They are a placebo.

"Actually, the laws of chemistry state that there is a limit to the dilution that can be made without losing the original substance altogether. This limit, which is related to Avogadro's number, corresponds to homeopathic potencies of 12C or 24X (1 part in 1024). Hahnemann himself realized that there is virtually no chance that even one molecule of original substance would remain after extreme dilutions. But he believed that the vigorous shaking or pulverizing with each step of dilution leaves behind a "spirit-like" essence—"no longer perceptible to the senses"—which cures by reviving the body's "vital force." Modern proponents assert that even when the last molecule is gone, a "memory" of the substance is retained. This notion is unsubstantiated. Moreover, if it were true, every substance encountered by a molecule of water might imprint an "essence" that could exert powerful (and unpredictable) medicinal effects when ingested by a person."

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:53 PM

Actually, Alice, research shows different. This, from the link above:

>In 1997, The Lancet published a thorough meta-analysis which showed that, of 89 clinical >trials, 44 reported homeopathy to be significantly more effective than placebo;1 none of the >89 trials found placebo to be more effective than homeopathy. Even accounting for any >publication bias towards 'positive' trials, the authors came to the conclusion that clinical >benefit from homeopathic therapy cannot be explained by the placebo effect alone.

Bottom line, though, Alice, is that nothing that anyone asserts about what may or may not be happening, it does work.   Check this The Treatment of Epidemics with Homeopathy

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: Hawker
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:03 PM

George! I had no idea you had been suffering so much!
Firstly healing thoughts and love to you from me.
Secondly I have had 2 arthroscopy procedures (1 on each knee) recovery post op is rapid and relatively pain free. One knee saw a 95% improvement and the other (bad cartilage probs) 50% better so worth having done.
Thirdly, after i had old lumpy removed from my leg at Christmas, I was suffering considerable muscle pain from the bruising caused by the retractors used to open up the muscle to get him out. Paracetamol and ibuprofen were not touching the pain. A friend recommended that I try arnica and like you i was VERY sceptical, I spent 8 years of my working life as a pharmacologist and still dont understand how it works, but it was THE ONLY THING that took the pain away, I was so impressed I have been looking at the whole homeopathy thing, for me it was brilliant - and cheap - and not illegal! I can't tell you how or why it works, I cant promise it will work for you but it sure impressed me!
FYI I have high blood pressure, angina and have had 2 mini strokes, it has not affected me at all - in fact at present I am feeling better than I have for a long time.
It wont kill you and may well be of benefit - if you do try it, let us know how you get on!
Love to nessie and all down your part of the country ;0)
Lucy x

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:50 PM

bring the stick with you George, you'll get doors opened & seats on the bus! Tho maybe not a sword stick, you might just get removed from the airport & sent to Guantanamo!

There's a lot of standing & walking at Festivals & a support for your healing leg is a very good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Arnica
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 08:04 PM

One of those very English 'seats on a stick' thingies that were used by racegoers, etc should be the thing George.