BS: Why are Folkies so critical?

Subject: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:03 PM

At Mudcat at least, we seem to spend an inordinate amount of time criticising each other, or third parties such as radio programs etc.

Would it not be better to focus on the good things?

Fetivals aren't perfect, the BBC isn't but come on!!!! Positive is good.

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:05 PM

"Fetivals aren't perfect, the BBC isn't "

Oh, yeah? Post one and it's already got criticism in it. Sheesh . . . .

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:07 PM

(I was kidding, Ed.)

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:07 PM

Because folkies are perfect, therefore everything else pales in comparison and must be criticized!

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:09 PM

Critical ? We're absolutely vital!

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:10 PM

"Fetivals aren't perfect,"

You spelled festivals wrong. What is your problem???















just teasing!!

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:10 PM

I think this thread need go no further as Ed himself has defeated the purpose of it with his very first post.*LOL*

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Slag
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:19 PM

Criticism is an important tool for advancing in any field of endeavor. It is a chance to learn how what you are doing is being perceived. It is a chance to learn from others who are knowledgeable in your field. If you don't clash ideas together and see how well they stand up you may just wind up being an audience of one! Or living in a house with a weak foundation!

I have belonged to artistic groups who have performed or read their original works to that group and then we had a period (in one group in particular we called "Brickbats and Bouquets")of criticism where you had to balance each negative comment with a positive comment. It worked great.

True, some folks can get downright nasty with their criticisms. It seems as though they must throw in a personal attack with their opinions. But try not to get ruffled and look for the thing that may have fired their emotions. Sometimes it is just a difference OF opinion; a personal preference and nothing more and sometimes you might learn something from their comments in spite of their spite!

Cheers! Never quit learning!

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:20 PM

"Those that can, do..."

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:22 PM

Besides - Ed is a guest and we don't trust "guest" postings. If he cared about this topic he's join. He probably thinks that Peter, Paul and Mary sing folk music......

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:24 PM

...and you're telling me they don't?? LOL

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:26 PM

They don't?

One school of thought might argue that PP&M are not true folksingers, but that the material that they choose to perform is indeed folk music, or, at least, composed largely of folk songs.

Who sez we're hairsplitters?

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:28 PM

"Besides - Ed is a guest and we don't trust "guest" postings. If he cared about this topic he's join. He probably thinks that Peter, Paul and Mary sing folk music...... "

what a snotty nosed attitude!

Charlotte (hands Wesley a hankie for his snotty nose)

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:29 PM

Well, GUEST Ed, I suppose it all boils down to: what do we mean by "folkies"?

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:29 PM

Split Ends Anonymous?

Out of which grew Crowded House, I believe.

Neil Finn- Now THAT'S what I call a folksinger!!

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: GUEST,KissMe Slow Slap Me Quick
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:32 PM

....and, of course, Guest Ed is no stranger to being critical or abusive.

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:36 PM

this id all beginning to sound suspiciously like a

What is(fill in the appropriate genre)music thread

"and, of course, Guest Ed is no stranger to being critical or abusive."

hence the nullifying of this thread

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:38 PM

To be serious for a moment, Criticism, I think, is very often a projection of unwanted self-criticism onto others. For example, x (a man never known to crack a smile in public), will chide y for being a miserable bastard, or "only singing miserable songs", etc.; all the while being only too aware deep down that his words are merely a projection of his own misery.

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:41 PM

...well, yes, Charlotte, that's true. And yet we always come across you on those threads...:)

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:43 PM

we aren't critical...we 'critique!

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Slag
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:48 PM

...and then there's just the plain silliness...

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:49 PM

So x being a mudcatter who doesn't like a certain band, tells y that band is really crap. This of course means that x really deep down does like that band?

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:52 PM

No, it means deep down x himself is crap...er...

OK, so the analysis doesn't work every time, but do you expect perfection? This is a FOLK forum! Stop being so damn critical!!

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:58 PM

as "we" always come across you......

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:01 PM

...yes, but I enjoy these threads! Most of the time, anyway...

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:01 PM

Well, Ewan McColl and the Critic's Group might have had something to do with it?

Kitty

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:02 PM

then there are those critical first four letters in analysis.

and if someone doesn't like an artist/singer/songwriter/piece of music/whatever, then they should be free to do so if they choose without fear of recrimination or name calling.

Charlotte (that well known troll)

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:02 PM

so do I, most of the time.....

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:03 PM

Why are people so critical? Well, one reason is that they do it to enhance and strengthen their own sense of identity. By saying, "I don't like this!" they are helping to solidify their own sense of who they are, by focusing on whatever they think they are not.

You see this on the part of not just folkies, but practically any group of people whom you could care to mention.

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:07 PM

"then there are those critical first four letters in analysis."

Absolutely! And we all know now I'm an ARSS (grin)

Never called you a troll, BTW.

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:12 PM

WTF is BTW?

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:14 PM

By The Way. Why, what were you thinking of?

...snicker...

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:15 PM

BY THE WAY

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:15 PM

Thank You Dr Little Hawk, much appreciated...now...in our next news item...a folk was threaten with being torn apart at a local folk club when he dared perform 99 Bottle of Beer On The Wall..

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:16 PM

IMO, all these OTT acrynomes/accrynims/accronymes/ abrevviations/abbreeviations/abrreviations short ways of saying things have GTG.

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:17 PM

"a folk was threaten with being torn apart at a local folk club when he dared perform 99 Bottle of Beer On The Wall"

Must have been an English-language pedant who insisted on the pluralization of beer.

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:17 PM

Que?

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:20 PM

This is descending into a BS thread, I think.

But the Critic's Group were based on the principle described in Slag's 5.19 post, and the membership included Ewan McColl, Peggy Seeger, Frankie Armstrong and Sandra Kerr.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:24 PM

"This is descending into a BS thread, I think."

no think about it, it is...a typo once in awhile is allowed. Piece

Charlotte (non-pendantic)

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:26 PM

Wasn't a criticism. In North America the term 'beers' is used, too.

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:28 PM

However, if they sang it twice, would it be the same as singing "198 Bottles of Beer(s) on the Wall" once?

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:30 PM

Humour, insight and... from ....oh wait, sorry...I was thinking about something else...and like I said, it was a typo, nothing more nothing less..

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:32 PM

. . . or "396 Bottles of Beer(s) on the Wall" if they did it four times?

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:37 PM

Which Tyler, led the Pedants' Revolt?

Kitty

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:39 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:46 PM

The Pedants are revolting, Sir.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 07:03 PM

Hmmm, that's odd, following Bruce's statement about the Pluralisation of Beer I followed up with a playful (and of course devastatingly witty) discourse confusing plurals in language with political pluralisation to comic effect...which seems to have been mysteriously zapped. Is there an over-eager elf in the vicinity?

Sorry, but THIS clone just checked and there are NO posts that have been removed from this thread. Are you sure you hit submit without the preview box checked?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 07:08 PM

Shane's favorite song is "99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall". Many people are critical of Shane.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 07:20 PM

Well actually I agree, I never criticise anybody.

Even if a folk festival has booked people whom I know will bore the living shit out of me. I am the very soul of tolerance. I merely smile and say - well done, where do I purchase my extremely expensive ticket, because even though I don't have the good taste and requisite amount of intelligence to appreciate this excruciatingly dull nonsense - there might be a beer tent, I might bump into old pals and we can talk very loudly and annoy the fuck out of people who are trying to listen. There might be a cd stall selling stuff that I hadn't thought of getting, but I can come home and get it cheaper on Amazon. And with a bit of luck I might be able to get a new corn dolly, as my old one has worn out through improper use.

Think not what you can do you for your local folk festival, think rather, think what it can do for you in terms of innocent merriment.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: gnu
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 07:26 PM

Didn't read the whole thread (sorry). But, 50 posts in two hours? That's critical.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 07:27 PM

Myself, I like to pop into one of the singing sessions of my local festival with a mate, stand at opposite sides of the bar to one another and exchange text messages saying stuff like "Talk over this bloke's song-he's a wanker!". With the keypad tones switched on and at full volume. Good, clean fun- and free (until I realise I'm blocked in with no escape route until the end of the session and feel compelled to buy a drink out of decency). Doh!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 07:30 PM

Yeh Allo Moto! they don't like that!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 07:41 PM

Another good one is deliberately walking right through the middle of a morris team performance on the pedestrianised bit of the high street...only to realise you've gone the wrong way and then retrace footsteps back through said morris team performance. Most effective if done with a cheery self-deprecating grin and none-too-apologetic wave of the hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 07:43 PM

Yell out, "Rock and Roll will live forever!"

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 07:45 PM

"Hey hey, My my
The Folk Police will never die"

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 09:23 PM

"Are you sure you hit submit without the preview box checked?"

Er..no, sir. Oh wait, hang on (looks nervously around)...is this a trap?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Slag
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 10:15 PM

What the Hell does this have to do with Anchoies?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Beer
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 10:45 PM

99 Bottles of Beer on the wall. The worst Rock "n" Roll song ever written.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: number 6
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:01 PM

Anyone have the lyrics and guitar tabs to 99 Bottles of Beer on the wall?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Beer
Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:57 PM

That's a real tough one biLL.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 12:41 AM

It's a standard 3 chord song. The lyrics are almost endless, but they are also entirely predictable, and that is why the song has remained popular with generations of really stupid young men.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 01:25 AM

Perhaps they/we are so critical because they/we are literate, intelligent, experienced, and talented, or some of the above. In 50years, I've never met a stupid folkie

To turn it around, why are some people so uncritical? do they like being fed rubbish?

I'll vote with BillD (was it?) and say we critique.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Ernest
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 02:16 AM

I don`t like this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 02:34 AM

If you really want to gouge your mark on a folk festival, heres a tip:-

Try and spot anybody who has paid about two grand for a guitar - Martin, Lowden something tasty like that. Ask to 'have a look'. To achieve the maximum effect, you need a sharp belt buckle - American Eagle with sticky out wings is perfect.

Its amazing how few of these folk people have never tried to play Roll Over Beethoven with a really sharp pick. When using an old sixpence for this purpose - smile ecstatically and murmur, 'I just love Brian May!' or 'You could get a really great sound doing Stairway to heaven with this box, man - d'you do that one, man?'. Always finish off with Wild Thing. I have found an amazing number of folkies don't know these simple traditional melodies and have never heard their guitars played in this fashion.

Soon you will be able to spot your handiwork on all the main stages of England, and at every singaround in the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 02:48 AM

People who do that should be beaten to death with a blunt object...

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 04:51 AM

Now THAT'S being critical.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 05:25 AM

I suppose on reflection. About the original question. There is much that we are at odds with in this quick fix world that we live in. Our music is, for the main part, assembled painstakingly and the few technological aids that help - don't really seem to speed up its creation.

Also on the mudcat, continually we find ourselves taken to task by people who are quite old enough to know better. It is quite obvious, that we occupy the same space spiritually - on the mudcat we are like wolves that meet in a forest clearing - we damn well KNOW we are all the same species. And yet we get told, what you do isn't folk music - as though its written in stone somewhere what is folkmusic. It isn't - I have checked.

Another area of discontent seems to be aggressive marketing of the young turks of our kind of music. It seems out of proportion to what they have to say artistically. They ain't going to kick a hole in my world like Bob Dylan did in 1964 - but perhaps they would if I were still 15 years old.

And because of this factionalism, we are so much weaker as a movement that we should be. We have our own website - damn it, we should have our own satellite channel. If religious groups who still believe in a flat earth and that God created the world in 7 days can get it together - we should be able to.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 06:51 AM

Gonna struggle to match WLD's last (non-serious) post...but, on the subject of guitars...how about, at the end of a festival session, finding a superficially similar-looking but substantially more expensive case than your own, calmly packing your own axe away in it and sauntering off. Then the following afternoon, saunter back into the same session with your brand new snazzy case; and come face to face with the guy who paid for it...having been confronted, calmly look him in the eye and intone, "But monsieur, where is ze proof?"

Seriously, I did actually manage to do this one time (not gonna say where!) so this is a true story...except the very last bit. The man got his case back, albeit a little dented, breathless and over-exited.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 07:57 AM

Critical ? Moi ?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 09:52 AM

The fact people are making jokes about Wat Tyler shows how far out of touch we all really are--

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:17 AM

It's the mass wot makes it critical, Guv!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Green Man
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:50 AM

Critical? Me no I have too much fun playing the box.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:52 AM

...and I have plenty of fun bringing folk music OUT of the box!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 11:21 AM

I find it difficult playing 99 Beers in the 3 chord structure and trying to memorize the lyrics.

I gonna play it in 2 chords and just hum along ... and I don't give a rat's ass what anyone says ... it's just a good ol' folk song.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 11:26 AM

I got a vote! I got a vote! I got a vote!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 11:26 AM

I am critical only when all these dumkopfs and ne'er-do-wells I am surrounded with do things which deserve criticism, which is most of the time, unfortunately. If only they would behave, I would not have to be so critical, but they keep setting me up, goddamit. I wish they would give me a break and evolve into sentient, intutiive, intelligent, articulate, reasonable, balanced beings like Yours Truly, because then I could spare them the criticisms they heretofore have so richly deserved. But it is not me, you understand. It's them. ALL of them. I hope that is perfectly clear, now.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 11:45 AM

Amos ... do you know how to play 99 Beers in a 2 chord structure?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 11:59 AM

Yes. I also know how to jack off in public, spill my beer on the next table over, fall down stairs, play a guitar badly out of tune and mess up the beat on music played with others. But I don't do these things. I know how to do many things the actual execution of which I reserve, in my generous spirit and keen mind, to the responsibility of a-wipes, dog'sbodies, befuddled twits, stunod banderlogs, or half-wit nincompoops who need someone to be critical of them.


AS

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 12:56 PM

You forgot simploid valdersplitz, no offense.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 01:13 PM

Well, critical comes right before flatlining!!!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 01:37 PM

Maybe I should sign up for a Critical Care nurse. Some of them are pretty. Dunno if I could stand being told off every time she wanted to take my temperature, though....



A

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 04:15 PM

MTed

I did actually try a serious post, while this thread was above the line, about Ewan McColl's Critic's Group, which was a critiquing group as described by Slag, and which raised issues that were genuinely above the line. I also flagged up that other people were treating this thread as a BS one. I only posted the Which Tyler contribution to the thread when it went below the line.

Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 04:35 PM

I am sure you'd be positively brill at it, Lizzie. Do you know anything about the Care part, also?



A

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 04:47 PM

In my experience the Mudcat is somewhat at the more worldly end of discussion formus. Ballance is around, people rush to your defence.

There are other formums that seems to polarise around the flickaswitch society and you can't get much if you ask questions outside the communities' interest.

Here I can joke and on other threads I can get useful erudite answers.

Try that on the BBC message boards - and come back and tell us how it works for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Slag
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 05:04 PM

Yes HK. I haven't really looked at it since so much leaden "humor" sank it below the line. I've been accused of not reading or posting above the line and it is true to some extent. I read quite a bit up there but I know I'm out of my league with most things "folk" so I mainly listen. Gee, and when I do post up there, look what happens! Right to the bottom!

Footnote, and footnote only as I really don't want this thread to enter the debates that are going on in other thread, however since WLD opened the door with his 05:25AM post, God is described in the Book of Job as "...He that hangeth the world upon nothing." Pretty advanced for its day and time ( and yes I know about the Babylonian astronomy, spare me). And It also says that One day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day (i.e. an indeterminate amount of time). Another point; the order of creation is pretty much the same order as Evolutionists have used. Coincidence? Perhaps. I always try to keep in mind the audience and their mode of understanding in the day those words were penned. It matched their ability to comprehend. There was no science as we know it. I don't have much tolerance for the Seven Day Crowd either but that's not the point is it? You delight in getting your digs in when and where you can. I've had my say in response to your ridicule and will not respond again in this thread as I believe it should remain on topic. I know it will eventually lead to anchovies at some point regardless, so critique away!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 05:05 PM

While enjoying the badinage...there is a more serious point here.

Some threads do get...now what's the word I'm looking for?.....populated? Yes! Populated by those who may be a trifle over-enthusiastic about ensuring that their point of view is carefully considered by the assembled multitude. (I'm trying to be polite here, folks. In chatting with other folkies about Mudcat, I often find that such threads are the reason they have dismissed Mudcat and, thus, missed out on all the good things that this site has, does and will achieve.


Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 05:12 PM

Dare I suggest that folkies don't tend o be critical at all. They do bitch a lot, and are partial to using words like "great" or "crap", but performed folk music has suffered greatly from a lack of real criticism. I don't know of any other performing field where performers can get away with so little preparation, stage presence or
fundamental performing technique.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 05:37 PM

I couldn't agree more Dick.

I'm with FR Leavis on this one - the critic's job is to isolate quality. Not tell you what folk music is.

Mind you Leavis was pretty bloody wrong on novelists - all that stuff about being 'morally earnest'. As CS lewis said, I'd rather play cards with someone who simply doesn't cheat - rather than someone who is 'morally earnest' about not cheating.


And that's the whole fucking game really. You give your life's work to this music and it should be enough. Your best shot. Some dimwit should not be questioning its validity, because of some vapid theory. Your life's work should have bought you serious consideration - if only out of decency from one human being to another.

As Eugene Delacroix said, to be a poet at twenty is to be twenty - to still be a poet at forty is to be a poet.

As I said, to still be kicking ass artistically at sixty is a bloody miracle.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 05:46 PM

"...but performed folk music has suffered greatly from a lack of real criticism."

Amen to that, Mr Greenhaus!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 06:45 PM

This is so true.. Just recently I saw a guy called Brian Peters that I hadn't seen for about thirty years. And of course he was SO improved from when I remembered him.

Brian and I probably wouldn't agree about anything regarding the nature of folk music.

But in a way that is an irrelevance. For these are just ideas - mere abstractions.

I could see that there was substance in what he was doing and I think the feeling was mutual.

What we need is someone who can actually understand the substance, The nature of artistic endeavour - rather than a load of bollocks about what some kat thinks is valid folk music and what isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 07:10 PM

Oh hell I should not have ignored this thread as a vapid witticism. There is much of substance here and I don't know in what order to treat it.

First, Kudos.

Kitty, great crack about Wat Tyler. My local hero, the man from Dartford, lured into a trap under flag of truce and murdered.

Mr Red - right on. Both on Beeb and the land of the one-legged flautist. Don't go above the parapet.

Gene - we often see things in the different directions, but yes, bring folk out of the box. Arrange it. Rock it. Electrify it. Ram it up the arse of the ignorami that this is the primordial soup from which they evolved (or maybe in sone cases devolved). But remember what is folk and what is not.

Poppagator – 20th, 0526 – exactly right.

Second, Brickbats/

Perhaps top of the list. Dick Greenhaus (and Shimrod): rather to my surprise, not among the usual suspects). Folk music is not simply (indeed perhaps not mostly) a matter of performance. It is not about vapid entertainment. It is not about the faking of sincerity. It is not about how WELL you can play it. Go back, and consider what the folk arts are. Slick (apart from maybe Grace Slick) we don't need. Got enough politicians to do that.

I am ignoring 99 bottles of beer(s) but reserve the right to return.

Close – Gene on walkthrough. Two stories. Two Hells Angels tried to ride through (mumble mumble) Morris. They found that longswords or border sticks will stop bike wheels, and they were outnumbered about 50:2. Second, a "yoof" (this is a young person with no education) tried to walk through Bishop Gundulf at Broadstairs last year. Val, the squire, lifted his beer and drank it in one. Never did I see a yoof look so scared of a woman before.

WLD – you know better. The expression "folk music" has been defined authoritatively. For some reason, although you do not like folk music, you want to call the music you play (and play so well) "folk music. You would not, I am sure be so disrespectful of a guitar. Try it on mine and we WILL fall out, no matter how tall you are. And, as you know perfectly well "Roll Over Beethoven" is Chuck Berry, not Brian May.



Third, synthesis: Why are we critical? Every other bugger shoots at us. We cannot defend ourselves??

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:36 PM

richard-
Read what I said. I was referring specifically and ONLY
to performed folk music. You may consider this a contradiction in terms--I wouldn't want to argue that one. Should I have said performed "folk" music?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Slag
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 03:27 AM

In regards to art of any sort, once you put it out thereit is no longer yours. I'm not talking copyright. I'm saying that it belongs to the audience and to the ages. They will ultimately determine its meaning and quality. For example, consider Van Gogh. He had some peer review/critisim, some favorable some not, but he never sold a painting. He always considered himself a student of oils, always learning. His landlady burned hundreds of his works after he died.

But when his work finally reached the public, the audience...WOW!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 04:25 AM

Well let me tell you Richard Bridge, last weekend I went on the Folkus weekend and Alan Bell was doing the songwriters workshop.
He asked me to do a couple of my songs, and he's asked me to do a spot at Fylde Festival.

So I must be a folksinger, if I'm going to sing at a real folk festival. Perhaps I wasn't one at the start, but I've evolved into one. Like Hairy Mammoths become elephants.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 10:41 AM

This thread'll make 100, or I'm not a folksinger...

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 07:21 PM

...or am I?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 03:39 AM

Now now WLD. You know perfectly well that although there is a measurable and determinable difference in the derivation of folk songs and other songs, we pedants do not deny the right of folk festivals to host and people to perform other songs. I sing some non-folk songs and even a couple I wrote, myself.

The similarity between mammoths becoming elephants and songwriters becoming folk singers intrigues me though. Is the main similarity that as they get older the hair falls off?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 04:21 AM

Richard ask not what the pedants can do for you, ask what's in it for them?

The only reason they bother about this bollocks is to inflict their parsimonious views on the community - usually from some position of power or influence they have done nothing to deserve.

Seriously, have they EVER done anything for you that you feel in the slightest bit grateful for.....come on think about it. Given you a gig, a plug on the radio, a friendly review, brought to your attention a decent song......they are to a man and woman, self serving miserable gits. Its an ego trip for them, limiting the success of artists, who work harder at what they do everyday, than these buggers have ever done.

The elephants migrated to Africa - that bit worries me a bit. Whereas the hairy Mammoth was once a common sight in the country byways of Derbyshire. They dug one up in Cresswell Crags - he was heading south at the time of his demise, by the look of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Melissa
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 05:46 AM

I grew up in a rural area, largely uninfected by mainstream recording influences. As a very young child, I spent a good deal of time listening to very old musicians who sang/taught me songs they had learned when they were young from people who were old.

It amazes me that according to the general opinions at mudcat, I do not 'fit' anywhere in the Folk category although I haven't strayed far from my foundation.

Wooly Mammoths might have been able to keep their hair if they hadn't been moved to the cities.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 07:30 AM

101! 'Tis proved! I DEFINITELY is an folksnigger.

"...have they EVER done anything for you that you feel in the slightest bit grateful for...." (WLD on the f*** pedants)

As a young (ish) man, I am grateful to them, if nothing else, for providing me with textbook examples of what I DON'T want to become like 20 or 30 years hence. When I see the way they conduct themselves both on forums like this and in the course of their professional lives; I think to myself, if ever become that sour and embittered, dear God let somebody shoot me. We all have our issues when we're young; but you'd have hoped most people would've resolved the worst of theirs by the time they hit middle age...pretty depressing when you have to watch damaged people seeking to project their own misery on to others.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 07:48 AM

Getting lulled into complacency or being required to believe and behave as everyone else in the clan do, are requirements for the religious conservatives.

As I learn how limiting ego can be and as I divest myself of its worst trapppings I have found that people are not nearly as critical as I had formerly thought.

While self regulation and self criticism are importatnt developmental tools sometimes a swift kick in the ass from the the outside is a postitive thing.



so ed, why do you feel so threatened and criticised anyway...
was your father distant and your other co.....(just kidding)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 09:53 AM

It wasn't climbing the steps in tower blocks that killed off the wooly mammoths, or negotiating the one way system in Loughborough.

They probably died of hay fever after trying to shelter under haystacks out in the country, or some bloody farmer put DDT on their tusks.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 11:43 AM

Folkies critical? What kind of bloody stupid question is that..?

:-P

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 12:19 PM

Well, I am so critical because I am one of those naturally superior people endowed by either God or Nature with the inherent qualities of nobility and perfection that set me far above the common herd. I gaze with lofty disdain upon the general public, particularly upon those people (and there are so many of them!) who do not have any appreciation or any understanding of folk music. Such types are really beyond help. The world would be far better off without them. Hopefully, science will one day come up with a means to genetically weed out these wretched philistines and degenerates, the greater part of the human population, those who do not appreciate folk music. They are worthless rabble. May they all be exterminated, I say!

;-)

By the way, I got the above worked out by parsing through a copy of Margaret Thatcher's unpublished memoirs and I just altered the odd word here and there. The essential spirit of the text remains the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 12:48 PM

LH, this is one problem you can't blame on ole Maggie Thatcher, I am afraid.

Very different origins indeed, I would submit.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 02:43 PM

Yes, well, I could say the same about your lamentable taste in aftershave and your various adventures in vanity publishing... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gurney
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 05:53 PM

LH, would that be a taste in aftershave, or a taste FOR aftershave?

I thought Shane had that fetish sewn up.







If it is for, how do you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 04:28 AM

Slag wrote:
"Criticism is an important tool for advancing in any field of endeavor. It is a chance to learn how what you are doing is being perceived. It is a chance to learn from others who are knowledgeable in your field. If you don't clash ideas together and see how well they stand up you may just wind up being an audience of one! Or living in a house with a weak foundation!"
SHOULD BE FRAMED AND HUNG ON THE WALL.
This is part of an interview we did with MacColl in the eighties when we asked him about criticism and self-criticism - still makes sense to me.
Jim Carroll
"Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that's the argument that's put to me from time to time, by singers who should know better.   
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it. Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening. And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it's hit or miss. If you're training it can happen more, that's the difference. It can't happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it's something to fall back on, a technique, you know. It's something that will at least make sure that you're not absolutely diabolical
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself, she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song".

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Slag
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 04:41 PM

Wow! I guess I've reached pedant stage at last. Why, it is a pretty lofty view from up here LH! I can see for miles and miles! I shudda copyrighted that post as is will now be framed and hung in every creative person's living room.

WLD how do you hold two drumsticks in that proboscis and manage to play the drums?!!!

I heard Kristofferson at a concert long ago in Bakersfield (CA) and it was pretty terrific but when I talked with him afterwards he was nothing but apologies because he felt he had messed up on his harmonies. His band members were reassuring as was I but he knew what he was capable of and felt he had missed his mark. The man is an artist. I know he loves whatever he is doing and tries to put his all, his best into it. That is to say, he works at it which means practice, which means getting it right. Self criticism is probably the hardest master but it is not the only master. You have to find out how you are being perceived and that means listening to your critics, whether you like them or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 06:22 PM

'WLD how do you hold two drumsticks in that proboscis and manage to play the drums?!!!'

genetic engineering, it will save us all......

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 06:26 PM

LH:

You are an unprincipled scoundrel, an immoral varlet, and a fetid kipper, sirrah.

For one thing my taste in after-shave is impeccable--usually, fresh water.

For another, I have never indulged in vanity publishing, except by posting to this forum -- a sin for which you are as much to be faulted as am I.

Pfui.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 06:53 PM

LOL! I knew that would get you going, Amos. Heh! Heh! (chuckling evilly)

I have watched with increasing distress the mounting avalanche of florid prose, overblown poetry, and didactic intercourse that pours forth from your keyboard to this forum, Amos, and I see a mind and ego veering out of control. I ask myself, "Where does he find the time? Does he have any time left to eat, to sleep, to attend to bodily functions? How does he earn a living? Is he perhaps confined to a sealed upstairs room in some mouldering Victorian mansion, like some bizarre half-human creature in an H.P. Lovecraft novel, typing madly away on his computer while frightened family members slide a tray of food under the triple-locked door? Flecks of foam upon his lips, fingers feverishly pounding the keys? Whence cometh his perpetual doggerel? What nameless impulse or dark demonic influence hath brought forth this ceaseless flow of Amosian codswallop? And what will ever bring it to an end???"

Yes, I ask myself these things. Then I have another cup of tea.

Earl Grey, hot.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: meself
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 08:55 PM

'Didactic intercourse'? Howdya do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: meself
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 10:24 PM

"As Eugene Delacroix said, to be a poet at twenty is to be twenty - to still be a poet at forty is to be a poet."

I suppose that takes care of a whole passel of dilettantes, then: Burns, Byron, Shelley, Keats, Rimbaud, Rupert Brook, Wilfred Owen, Dylan Thomas, Sylvia Plath ...

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 02:43 AM

"Wow! I guess I've reached pedant stage at last."
Why spoil a good statement with a piece of nastiness
Shame
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 04:37 AM

Rupert Brook?

Well, if you read some Rupert Brook, you might come to the view that his death (due to a mosquito bite on the upper lip during his service in the navy, which must have made it pretty stiff, boom, boom) was a saving from more nationalistic rubbish...

"If I should die, think only this of me
That there's some far corner of a foreign field
That's for ever England"

or

"In the grey tumult of the after years
Oft silence falls, incessant wranglers part,
And less that echoes of remembered tears
Hush all the loud confusion of the heart".

With the benefit of hindsight, he wasn't great was he?

Or are you smitten my the meretricious introduction of some classcal Greek into "Grantchester"?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Slag
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 05:43 AM

Gee, Jim C! Can't I have a little fun too? At my own expense? ala Little Hawk, et al? That was nasty? Oh, well... I guess I need to learn to take criticism also. Thanks. I'll consider what you said and try to figure out what nastiness was involved. Cheers!

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:01 AM

Donuel

As I learn how limiting ego can be and as I divest myself of its worst trapppings I have found that people are not nearly as critical as I had formerly thought.

Oh how apt. the Folk fraternity, IMNSHO, by and large ignores egoes. Which makes them quiet or slink away. When you read about the myriad ceilidh bands that are happy to slave away at their "hobby" for little more than break-even financially, and are happy with the reward of smiling faces - it fair makes you well-up.

On Saturday at Bath ceilidhs (3rd Sat in Combe Down) I saw a lot on unfamiliar faces as well as the regular suspects, all smiling. Mind you, the Old Swan Band would create such pleasure with their experienced line-up.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:53 AM

Slag,
"pedant!!!"
Get tired of people who substitute invective for argument - sorry.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:34 AM

Way back in the early days of this thread, some bright spark said "Those that can, do..."

God, I'll probably puke if I hear this patently rubbish truism one more time. It gets said on Mudcat at least once a week.

It says two things:

1. You are forbidden any opinions on anything unless you can do that thing yourself. Forgive me if that slips my mind next time someone makes a pig's ear of some job or other... Want to take some shoes back to the shop when they split after wearing them once? "Well... can you actually make shoes yourself, sir? No? Then, sorry, I can't help you."

2. None of us need ever use any discernment of any sort when going to concerts or buying CDs. If absolutely everything is above criticism you can just go into that record shop, shut your eyes, do a twirl and buy the first thing you crash into. It doesn't matter if it's not to your taste, because if you couldn't make it yourself you can't criticise.

Of course, the very people who say "Those that can, do..." usually rely on the rest of us, who, because we can't presumably shouldn't, to buy their CDs, attend their gigs etc.

I suppose the correct reply would be "Just shut up and sing, dammit!"

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 09:57 AM

Take a pill, Nigel. You'll live longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 10:01 AM

Critics are self-inflated balloons of what? You are a listener by your own admission. One who has excellent taste by your own admission. So criticize all you want. No one is trying to take that right away from you. However, neither do you have the right to be the last word--other than in your own head. If that's what you're saying, good.

Critics damage the careers of others. They do so for good lines in a review. You are not the last word on folk, what constitutes folk, what folk means or does. You are but another voice in the chorus.

Speaking of bright sparks: Want a flick of my Bic?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 11:47 AM

What's it all about Alfie? Its got bloody convoluted.

I'm a bit cheesed off cos people keep saying what I do isn't folkmusic - mainly cos that was the intention.

They've all got terrific reasons for saying its not folk music.. But ideas change - like onetime everybody thought the earth was flat. you can't subordinate what you want to do, to the fact somebody has an IDEA.

supposing you said, oh I won't do that, because this bloke has got an idea. And then afterwards he changes his mind. You would have stopped doing what you wanted to do for nothing.

I hope my position is clear.

al

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:09 PM

Here's another reason we are so critical. For a brief, wondrous, shining time...we ruled the world.

Then it ended. Those damned British rockers brought it all crashing down with their moptop haircuts, their screaming audiences of hysterical teenage girls, their idiotic onstage behaviour, and their excessive lifestyle choices.

We've been a bit frustrated ever since that happened, so we take it out on the world by being critical. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 06:34 PM

The severest critics are the non-folkie audiences, who vote with their feet. Hasn't anyone noticed the shrinking audience for folk and folkish music?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 07:38 PM

perhaps they are the folkie audience but they don't agree with 1947 codicil about what constitutes folk music.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Slag
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 11:06 PM

You raise a good point Peace. There are critics and then there are CRITICS. That is, those who are quite knowledgeable, have been or are related to the art/industry in some way which would give credence to their word and who pontificate in some way or some forum which carries the weight of influence effecting the financial aspect of the endeavor. Those CRITICS have a responsibility to the integrity of whatever their subject is. They also have a moral obligation to be honest and not contentious or demeaning or engage in personalities. Their job, strictly speaking should be for the promotion and preservation of the art.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 03:09 AM

Why are Folkies so critical?
They're not - or nothing like critical enough.
I have never heard anybody say 'near enough for opera', or 'football - it's only a game!' (I come from a city where, if you said that after your team was defeated, you'd be found beaten to a bloody pulp in some back alley).
The pervading attitude in too many quarters seems to be that standards in folk song don't apply; anybody can sing and it's just a bit of fun.
While we take the piss out of our music, we can't complain when outsiders do the same (just been watching the 'Have I Got News For You' re-run where the panel tell the world that the Abbots Bromley Horn Dance is performed by eccentics who are there to be laughed at.
Genuine criticism is an essential yardstick by which we measure our abilities. Too often it is bland and anodyne, which may be good for our egos, but it does nothing for our music.
I can remember very few critics (a couple), who used their position as critics to further their careers or get their own back; most said what they said because they believed it.
I find myself in total agreement with the slag again; you'll be getting yourself a reputation!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 04:51 AM

"Take a pill, Nigel. You'll live longer."

Now, I wouldn't say something like that to you or anyone else on Mudcat. Even if I did think they were talking shite. But thank you anyway. You're too kind.

I go to a writers group. We each read extracts from our works-in-progress and them we all criticise what we hear - some positive, some negative, but all intended to help each one of us get better at what we do. And you know what? It works. The end of my recent (unpublished) novel is far, far better written than the start.

Unless I've misunderstood, by your logic Bruce, there should not be a review section in any magazine or paper. Fine, if you don't want the publicity. Because if we censor the reviews that say such-and-such an album is a waste of good vinyl, we should also censor the ones that say "you've got to hear this fantastic record". To have the one without the other invalidates the whole process... and you can't tell me no-one ever in the history of recorded music has made a bad record.

Slag - unless I've misunderstood you, you seem to be suggesting there should be no independent opinion, just cunningly disguised advertising. Not sure what use that would be to anyone, including, ultimately, the artist.

And Bruce (again!), the thing about having far better taste than anyone else was a JOKE - yer good ol' English irony... I was 'pretending' to be as arrogant as some of the other posters on that thread. I actually don't think I'm the 'last word' in anything... and I don't believe I've ever said this, so please don't accuse me of it, ok? All I do is state my opinions. Too bad if you're offended by them - that's not what I've ever intended.

FINALLY... Here's an example (by lil ol' me) of criticism: Subway Review ... I'd be intrigued to discover in what way something like this is a heinous crime against music or musicians.

I'm out of here. For now.

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 05:42 AM

Well all I can say is you've been fighting a different war. I'm attracted to exciting people with talent. Sometimes, not all that likeable. But their talent biffs you on the nose. I never hear them on folk radio, or see them on the festival circuit, and they never get a serious review of their work in the folk press.

One thing is quite certain, the best songs that came out of my generation never got heard.

How about this for criticism - you've lost the interest of the English public, you employ your mates continually - most of whom couldn't fill a telephone kiosk without you banging a drum for them, the broadcaster scouting for gigs (playing the residents attempts at folkmusic) and forgetting to mention the folk clubs that don't book him....oh don't get me started!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 05:56 AM

Who's this 'you' you keep referring to, WLD? Is it those rascals 'they' wearing a cunning disguise?

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Slag
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 05:56 AM

No, no Nigel, I used words like "honesty" and "integrity", promoting the ART and not necessarily any one artist. At least I hope I did.

Jim, here is something you may disagree with me on. To the world at large what you do is "entertainment". To them, the audience, you and your art are a distraction, something clever, cleverly done. You give them a tune to remember and whistle or hum when they are happy or mull over when they are sad. They may remember the words or the "cause" the words represent, whether they agree with the cause or not (A nickle for every time I've heard someone say "Yeah, I like the tune but disagree [or completely disagree] with the lyrics."). And who is to say they are wrong about it being entertainment? Don't you entertain yourself when you sing or play an instrument? Paint a picture or write a poem? Design a killer building or write a play? Your attitude and degree of seriousness is different because of the side of the stage you are on but (hopefully!) there are more of them out there than there are on stage. So who is to say they are wrong? There are some serious fans who study the art(s) or even dabble in it (as me self does) but most are casual observers even if they are simpatico with your message.

So what does this mean? Well, for one it means to not take yourself too seriously. If they are there to be entertained, entertain them. If they say you stink, don't take it too seriously (maybe it was the extra Guinness speaking!) or honestly find out what they didn't like about your performance and take it from there. Your peers are the ones who are mostly likely to give you good feedback. We, in the arts, ARE entertainers, so entertain!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 07:12 AM

Slag - You're right. I did misunderstand your post. I was thrown by the 'You raise a good point Peace' at the start (joke! joke! ok?)... So (deep breath) people who may be percieved to be in a 'position of power' in the folk world(s) shouldn't express potentially contentious opinions in public forae that may be damaging to the music and/or 'folk community'? Or something like that?

I think I agree, in that case. As long as its not about stifling valid and constructive debate. And friendly piss-taking for that matter.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:06 AM

Slag,
Of course it's entertainment - but much, much more - that's what makes it unique.
Listen to Joe Heaney talking about what he expects out of his singing; or Paddy Tunney, or any of the great stylists. Listen to the incredible standard reached by some of the most 'ordinary' (for the want of a better word) people on Bert Lloyd's 'Folk music Virtuoso'.
Read what Sharp's singers had to say about the songs in Fox Strangeway's biography (chapter on collecting). Read gypsy woman, Phoebe Smith's moving statement on singing on the sleeve of her LP, or the introduction to Sheila Stewarts biography of her mother Belle, 'Queen Amang The Heather' where she talks about learning the ballads.
Conversations we've had with traditional singers, particularly Walter Pardon bear out that the songs went far beyond entertainment, and the demands that the singers, at their best, made on themselves, were far higher than many revival singers' expectations.
We've seen (and recorded) singers breaking down in the middle of a song, because of the level of involvement in what they are singing about.
I have never understood why 'art' and 'entertainment' should be contradictory objectives.
Doesn't a good painter, writer, musician, singer - whatever - 'enjoy' being skilful and producing something so beautiful that it might be considered 'art'? If you believe that traditional singers had no critical standard, you should listen to some of the West Clare singers talking about the 'greats' of the area, Tom Lenihan or 'Straighty' Flanagan.
On the other hand, aren't there bad and good entertainers?
Do we really believe that folksong, in the words of the early collectors, was as as "natural and instictive as birdsong".
I repeat MacColl's point:
"The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where, when he starts to sing, he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself, she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song".
can't gainsay that one - can you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:54 AM

"Here's an example (by lil ol' me) of criticism: Subway Review"

Good review, Nigel. Well-written and it's the type of 'criticism' anyone could stand. Thanks for sharing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:59 AM

Cheers, Bruce, decent of you to say.

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:02 AM

Nigel, you are a helluva writer, imo. I hope some company gets off its buns and publishes your prose. You have a neat way with words. Cheers back to you from the frozen north.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:11 AM

I reckon hell will freeze over before I get a deal... but I'll keep strugglin' on. Thanks for the thumbs up, though.

If you have fifteen minutes on your hands this or this might be something you'll enjoy.

Or not...

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:24 AM

I have things to get to just now, but I will read it over the lunch hour--which has become 30 minutes--and I think I will enjoy it very much (from a quick skim). THAT--the writing of prose--has got to be the most difficult area to 'break' into. Hang in, Nigel. Really. Please don't get disheartened.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: GUEST,Interested
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 12:44 PM

'I can remember very few critics (a couple), who used their position as critics to further their careers or get their own back; most said what they said because they believed it.'

Name and shame, Jim! Let's hear more about these two daft ha'porths, please!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 02:09 PM

dick greenhaus

Hasn't anyone noticed the shrinking audience for folk and folkish music?

Well in the UK at least Folk Festivals are not shrinking. The real problem is that they are pulling-in larger audiences
audience more used to Rock and it has to be LOUD. And they don't give a toss about participation like sessions etc. The folk ethos of caring and sharing is being lost.

You try pointing that out to organisers and you may not get mere criticism - you get invective, insult, total humour by-pass. And they don't stop on the Cat - meet them in person and you have hurt them so badly they have to announce it to anyone around you.

Truth is - you may have hurt their wallet. Now that ain't FOLK.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 02:51 PM

"Name and shame, Jim! Let's hear more about these two daft ha'porths, please!"
Sorry,
Have aired this at length and have recently been warned off when one of them complained to the site administrator.
However - the answer lies out there (Captain Kirk - or was it Mulder and Scully?),
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: GUEST,Interested
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 03:14 PM

OK Jim but space is a pretty big world (Captain Kirk) so where do we start looking?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 03:43 PM

Hello,

"And they don't give a toss about participation like sessions etc"

Sessions are well popular round our way!

IMHO

There is a problem using the word critical.....it means more than one thing and isn't always helpful :0)

We hear a lot about the "critical friend", when perhaps we should be talking about appreciative assistance or having a developmental partnership with someone whose grasp of the music we love, we trust.

BTW

Given the recent furore about 1954 and horses.....does this put the cat among the pigeons? (Or the mares among the crotchets?)

Just a bit of fun....honest, guv!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 04:39 PM

The last couple of folk festivals I went to were very well attended. But if you wanted to hear traditional music, you had to make your way up into meeting rooms in the extreme northwest corner of the Seattle Center grounds. Everywhere else, it sounded like more like a rock festival. When I first went onto the grounds, the first thing to hit my ears was "Duke, duke, duke, Duke of Earl, Earl, Earl—" and I wondered if I'd come to the right place. Yeah, it was well attended all right, but I'm not sure all these people were there to hear folk music, however you want to define it.

I have to agree with Dick Greenhaus (21 Feb 08 - 05:12 p.m. and 25 Feb 08 - 06:34 p.m.).

Among "folkies," Richard Dyer-Bennet was not everyone's cup of tea, but then he wasn't targeting his performances for folkie audiences. Although some folkies understood and appreciated what he was doing, his main appeal was to general audiences, particularly classical music audiences, and especially those who were into early music. Patterning himself after Swedish minstrel Sven Scholander, he never referred to himself as a "folk singer." He considered himself to be a minstrel, continuing a tradition that dates back more than a millennium. Different countries had different words for this kind of traveling self-accompanied singer:   trouvere in southern France, troubadour in northern France, minnesinger in Germany, skald in the Scandinavian countries, bard in Wales. . . .

In that a minstrel was a professional musician, i.e., he made his living by being paid to sing, it behooved him to have a repertoire of songs that were interesting to his audiences, and to be able to sing them and accompany them well. With that in mind, Dyer-Bennet makes the following point:

"No song is ever harmed by being articulated clearly, on pitch, with sufficient control of phrase and dynamics to make the most of the poetry and melody, and with an instrumental accompaniment designed to enrich the whole effect."

I maintain that if a person is going to appear in front of a paying audience, or even one that isn't paying but is investing their time, that person has taken on a certain obligation to that audience. Not only do you owe it to the audience, you owe it to the music—and to yourself.

Don Firth

P. S. Am I being sufficiently critical?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 04:57 PM

Let me take it a step further. If you're performing in public, it's nice if people can understand the words. It's not nice if you take half the show with inane drivel while you're trying to tune. It's not a good thing to follow a long ballad in Em with another long ballad in Em.

Folksingers don't have to act or sound like anything but folksingers. But it would be nice if they looked and sounded like goodfolksingers.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 06:37 PM

Amen!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Slag
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:54 PM

...or as that great folk lyricist and song writer put it, "You can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself!" 'Garden Party' by Rick Nelson, ca ? 1980 or perhaps earlier, can't remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 07:34 AM

Please yerself and you get the audience that will accept it. And it may not be to your liking either.

In the Bobby Darin biopic that was sort of addressed. How much it represented his actual experience is moot but I trust Kevin Spacey.

Basically as portrayed - Bobby tried a civil rights message song in cabaret and it bombed. Then he took it to Las Vegas and he got a mega Gospel Choir to back him coming down a massive flight of steps, all in brilliant costume. Same song, same message. Different reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 10:07 AM

Tony Capstick used to tell this story, I wish I could do it like him:-

I'm walking through Sheffield, and this bloke comes up, he sez - Hey! It's Tony Capstick!
And I said, that's right
And he said, you sing and play the guitar abit...tell jokes - make peole laugh....
I said, that's right
He sez, can you take some constructive criticism? Honest constructive criticism.....
I said, all right....
He said, You're crap mate!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 03:40 PM

Is it a really difficult question???

No-one who has posted has gone anywhere near an answer. I think the question is a valid one.

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 04:00 PM

give us a chance, which answer would you like, we'll get as near to it as we can.....

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 11:40 AM

What answer did you have in mind?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:55 PM

dick greenhaus...you said: "It's not nice if you take half the show with inane drivel while you're trying to tune. It's not a good thing to follow a long ballad in Em with another long ballad in Em."

Bloody hell, dick! You've just trashed my whole act, you insensitive sod! I hope you drop your blasted banjo on your foot, you prat!







Just joking, dick... I take great care not to follow any Em ballad with another Em ballad. For instance, just throw a capo on at the 2nd fret and PRESTO! You're in F#m, all set to go...and with a whole new sound. ;-) This is what all the real pros do.




GUEST, Ed - Yes, just tell us exactly what you want us to say about why folkies are so critical and we'll say it for you. We are folkies, and we're very obliging, you see. Our only real desire is to please you in any way we possibly can.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:56 PM

"RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?"

The thread premise is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:04 PM

Parlant seulement pour me, je critique seulement la stagnation de la scène folklorique britannique courante, qui est en grande partie le défaut des critiques de non-performers/art de l'auto-portrait-appointed qui ne tirent jamais les cordes d'autres interprètes, pour qui je prends le plus grand respect (il est dur hors de là !)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:05 PM

Yes. ;-) It should probably read, "Why am I so critical of Folkies?"

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:08 PM

Vous obtiendrez les critiques fâchés.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:19 PM

Oui, mais les critiques ne prospèrent-ils pas d'être gêné ? Je n'obtiens pas l'impression qu'ils sont en particulier motivés par le plaisir... Je vois mon rapport avec des critiques pendant qu'un un symbiotique leur opprobre me met le feu vers le haut, tandis que je leur fournis la raison continue d'être critique !

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:20 PM

Quand ils se fâchent ils sont idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:24 PM

Oui, mais involontairement hilare ! ! ! C'est un phénomène bien observé qui ceux qui font tendre les la plupart des avis à être ceux avec la moindre connaissance...

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 08:41 PM

Nom de Dieu! Il s'avère que l'ennemi calomnieux a été conduit par le champ de la bataille par la puissance de la langue française. Périssez ainsi tous les tyrans!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 08:51 PM

VIVA ZAPATA!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 08:52 PM

VIVA ANN CHOVY!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 08:52 PM

VIVA PAPER TOWELS!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are Folkies so critical?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 10:57 AM

Viva Fidel!