BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 10:10 AM

I think that the Canadian Health Crae system is great. I have never waited in line at the Dr.'s office, I have never waited more that an hour or so in emerg. All of my health needs are paid for except dental and I have a personal plan for that. Universal health care may not be perfect but it sure beats having none at all, or only having coverage for those who can afford it.
   When something is free, people will, and do sometimes, abuse it. This drives up costs. Is there a funding problem, yes, is there the waiting times problem, in some cases yes. But my experience and observation is that those who are in need of care get it.
   You have to admire any country that believes that all of its people are entitled to health care. I can't understand why all countries, particularly wealthy ones, do not share the same committment to the citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:27 PM

Canadian healthcare isn't perfect but it is adequate. The government needs to stop thinking that the 'cure' is privatization. Its always going to need more tax dollars and in order to make the system better, we need to increase those tax dollars. I hope we never allow privatization. It will be the beginning of the end.

Like any form of 'social' system, it is the rich who do not want to pay for the poor. The rich would rather spend those tax dollars on their own healthcare. If we strive to become a compassionate nation, privatization would be a step in the wrong direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: number 6
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:35 PM

"The government needs to stop thinking that the 'cure' is privatization. Its always going to need more tax dollars and in order to make the system better,"

I certainly agree with that dianavan ... but rather that tax more, I think we should divert more of our tax $$ from military spending, and what is wasted on squander ... with better management of our tax $$, and changing many priorities I'm sure we could maintain and improve our Health Care system.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:31 PM

Alberta already has a dual public-private system for some services (e. g., MRI). If one does not wish to wait, a private clinic is available- an MRI at one of them is about $900, as I noted before.

A number of specialists here charge up front; if the treatment is covered by Alberta health, the portion covered is refunded by the government. Fees are not wholly reimbursed- my last specialist's fee was $400 and I was refunded only about $100; for the examination, the treatment (removal of bothersome, itchy keratoses) being considered cosmetic. Also, the basic fees charged by some of these specialists exceed the health care allowable.

Some specialists here accept patients from the United States and abroad; especially opthalmologist-surgeons who replace corneas, etc. The province has a quota system limiting the number of operations that they will pay for in a given time period. The specialist accepts foreign patients rather than playing golf or twiddling his thumbs when the quota is filled.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:55 PM

I wish to make two comments..one, I am fairly well off and I have no problem whatever paying into social programmes that benefit all. I think that accusing the rich of not having compassion for fellow citizens is a gross over generalization.I would gladly pay more tax for health care and education, so would most of my colleagues.
Secondly, Secondly, many people do abuse the system. I know this from first hand experience and I feel that we need to stop the kinds of abuses that are so costly. Emergency rooms are not consulting rooms and should not be treated as such. A change in this attitude alone would save millions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 05:34 PM

But sometimes going to the Emergency room is the only way a person can see a doctor - my doctor's surgery list is full, the only way onto it is dead people's boots and there are always 100 applicants for every 1 place available. Many people cannot get onto a doctor's list because they have no fixed abode, have recently moved into the area or fall between catchment areas.

I agree that people should only use the A&E for genuine accidents or emergencies - but with the best will in the world, that is not always possible.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:31 PM

Funny how our elected officials who have friends in the pharmaceutical industy and health care inducstry always seem to be talkin' about the benefits of privitization. Just can't figure out why that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 12:32 PM

I am a big fan of the Canadian system to which I belong. I have watched many people (including Mudcat's own Rick Fielding) having vastly expensive treatments which would bankrupt anyone -- even people with some levels of private insurance -- for nothing. Nevertheless, it is probably slightly less responsive than the French system. I have always felt that some small user fees would work: I know of doctors who find that their time is often taken up with useless multiple hypocondriacs. On the other hand, one of the great benefits of a free system is preventive care: no one worries about going to a doctor about costs early on, which I believe cuts down on later costs dramatically. But our system could do more with preventive care generally.

The big problem with which the Canadian system is not coping very well is the elderly -- the provision of home nursing care is pitiful, and this is an area where Britain and other countries shine.

The American system is completely and totally pathetic.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: GUEST,ALBERT
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 12:55 PM

The NHS is defended by health care workers and ordinary people in the UK because access to it does not depend on wealth but is still mainly free at the point of use.
It has many problems including chronic underfunding [healthcare is about 7percent of national spending in the UK whereas in Europe in countries like France it is more like 13%.
Another big problem is that New Labour has copied the Tories in pushing Private Finance Initiative [PFI ] deals in the NHS which are both grossly expensive in the long run and run contrary to the whole ethos of the NHS. Cleaning teams in the NHS are now mainly provided by private contractors who pay poor wages and impose shabby conditions of work on their demoralised and demotivated staff.No wonder the cleaning of wards has become one of the great medical scandals in our hopitals.
As a previous writer has said the National service is being localised and run by managers and business types who are undermining the NHS itself
But it is still a massive force for good in the UK and well worth defending as Karen Reissman and her mental health nursing colleagues have been doing in Manchester this year.
ALBERT

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:00 PM

the provision of home nursing care is pitiful, and this is an area where Britain and other countries shine.

Well, it's all relative, but I'd hesitate to say that Britain exactly shines in this respect. Sometimes it does - I could cite the way services responding to the situation of my father-in-law, who is 96, to enable him to continue to live at home after he had a fall last year.

But on a wider basis it is pretty patchy, and under strain as we all grow older. Nothing that can't be fixed, but the will to do so has to be there, and good services cost money, and raising that money can cost votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:06 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: gnu
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 03:05 PM

What's wrong Art? Ya got me very worried about ya lad. Never seen you without somethin ta say.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 07:47 PM

I am an enormous fan of the war in Iraq. If we got all these young teenage tearaways in uniform or making bullets and that sort of thing. They would all be paying tax. We could afford better hospitals than and we could have another war - perhaps another two or three more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: bobad
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 10:29 PM

Comprehensive comparison of Canadian and American health care systems at Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 11:02 PM

I've lived under both -- give me National Health anytime....

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 01:15 AM

Thanks, bobad. very interesting that the US spends 15.3% of GDP on healthcare, while Canada spends 9.8. Value for money seems to favor the Canadian system.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 04:05 AM

And UK about 7. Something to be said for single payer systems.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: DougR
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 05:35 PM

My experience, and it was considerable when my first wife was alive, with the US health care system has been excellent. The cost of one of her hospital stays in intensive care for 12 weeks totaled more than a million dollars. Our HMO covered everything. It cost us nothing.

From what I have read on this thread, I would prefer our system to the one in Canada or Great Britain.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 05:50 PM

Would you prefer our system if you didn't have any insurance, DougR, or if your insurance wasn't as good as what you had when your late wife was alive?

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 06:04 PM

HMO - that's "Health Maintenance organization", I see. Made my head spin trying to make sense of that article.

Glad it came through for you, Doug, and that you were in a position to be able to rely on it. But I'm so glad I'm living in a country, and indeed in a whole continent, where we can rely on getting decent health care for without ever having to worry about whether our payments are up to date, or that we have employers who have made the right arrangements or anything like that. And to know that all of us here have those same rights.

Even stuff like my digital hearing aids.

Come on in, the water's lovely...

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:22 PM

Even conservative projections show US health care costs doubling in the next 5 years as baby boomers begin to retire. Reform of the US Healthcare system is imminent, whether Doug R thinks it's great or Barry Finn thinks it's horrible. The fact is, with status quo, costs will be unsustainable. If we don't make a wise choice, a Hobson's Choice will be forced on us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:59 AM

Did anyone watch 'Sick Around the World' on last night's Frontline? T.R. Reid comparison-shopped health care systems in the USA, the UK, Switzerland, Japan and Taiwan (there may have been one or two others).

(It struck me as very strange that he didn't visit Canada)

For the first time I have hope that universal health care will come to the US in the near future. What kind it will be is more problematic but I have hope. As I've said many times before, there is no need to re-invent the wheel; cherry-picking elements of the various systems is the way to go. That is what Taiwan did.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Bee
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:51 PM

DougR, unfortunately your experience is not universal. I have a raft of relatives, mostly in Florida, who mostly work low paying jobs where employers do not provide good (or any, for most of them) health insurance. They can't pay for insurance and still have food and shelter. They are always putting off medical care until their health is seriously compromised, and they are frequently (especially the older ones) in debt to medical facilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:04 PM

>>It occurs to me that here at Mudcat we have a generous number of Brits and Canadians who could give us first hand observations as to how well "socialized medicine" works for them.<<

After all the grief I've given you on the other thread I think you deserve the best answer I can give on this one.

I can compare the systems here and in Canada pretty well.
As a worker is Canada, I barely noticed the deductions. I could go to the doctor I wanted. appointments could be made within a week. I rarely had to wait. I had emergency room care a couple of times. I rarely had to wait more than an hour or two. The offices and clinics were well staffed, but sometimes the nurses seem frazzled over the load.

In the States I have had HMO through United Health Care, PPO form another big company, the name escapes me, and HMO from Blue Cross Blue Shield. Two of these plans were corporate, from huge companies to my knowledge, they were the best plans available to me at any price, and the price was high. Appointments could never be had that week, usually they had to be more than three weeks out.

My dad, who was in Georgetown, Ontario, Canada at the time and I (Columbus, GA, USA) had a colonoscopy about two months apart. We both had to wait two weeks for our procedures we both had polyps removed, we both followup appointments the following week. We both were treated expertly courteously and prosessionally. I paid about $50 in deductibles. My Dad paid nothing.

While Carol and I were on Blues Cross our doctor had to drop us as patients because of red tape, inadequate payment and general poor treatment from blue cross and we were paying an obscene about of money for that coverage.

I would not only rather have the Canadian system than no coverage, I would choose it head up over any US health "insurance" company I have dealt with.


BTW, In Canada the medical insurance system does not pay for drugs. But drugs are way less expensive than here because the government is not in bed with big pharma.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:26 PM

Jack said: "BTW, In Canada the medical insurance system does not pay for drugs. But drugs are way less expensive than here because the government is not in bed with big pharma."
While that is still true about drugs being cheaper, the federal government has twice in recent years changed the patent act to block generic drugs. They were acting on behalf of the drug corporations and not the populace. Today we have arseholes running things in Ottawa anxious to impose a USA system of medical care. Privatization and Harper go hand in hand. I worry what the bastards will do if they ever get a majority!

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:11 PM

Australia - universal health cover by Medicare. Private Health coverage for those who want it (or feel they need it).

examples - 2006 my heart was racing a lot & I made 2 trips to the Emergency department at my local hospital, one of Sydney's biggest teaching hospitals with a great reputation.

The first trip I had to pay for the ambulance (2 reasons - I don't have Private Health cover nor am I a Pensioner who is covered by a Healthcard that allows free treatment), second trip I took a taxi as I knew I wasn't dying. All my treatment in Hospital each time was free - hooked up to heart monitors, blood tests, lung x-rays etc. Second trip diagnosed me - a very occasional & irregular heatbeat that didn't show up the first 10-hour visit, but was finally caught the second time.

Subsequent visits to a heart specialist does cost me. Medicare covers part of the bill - they pay out what they calculate a visits costs, & Health care professionals are not bound to that cost, & can & usually do charge more (their Associations always says it's not enough!) For pensioners Medicare covers all the bill. My tablets & many other medications get a Govt subsidy.

I also had a trip to the Eye Hospital one night where I waited 1 hour (bloke ahead was heading for the table to have a piece of metal removed from his eye so I didn't mind waiting!) Neither of us paid anything for our treatment, tho the follow up trip to my eye specialist cost the usual amount & I received the usual rebate.

All Australians (single & family) are covered by a Safety net - if they spend over a certain amount in a year (& most families do), they get a lot more back for their bills & medications.

My eye specialist has me on his list for free cataract operations when I finally need them. My thyroid specialist will also remove my thyroid (if it needs removing) for nuffin' in the Public hospital system, (cross you fingers for me the the biospy results will be good as she thinks they will be when I get them on friday). The biopsy cost nearly $500 & I received about half back.

There are lots of problems in our State & national health systems - Google Australia gives 80,900 references for "waiting lists & elective surgery", massive staff shortages in many systems, horror stories of people with ghastly conditions waiting for a long time for emergency treatment, but on the whole our universal health cover works well considering our population size & finances.

Aust Bureau of Stats 2008 yearbook re Australian health system

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:14 PM

IMO, anyone wants to slag Canadian health care, try doing without it for a few years. It'll look pretty good after that. Pretty darned good.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:20 PM

However, if there was a way to separate the drug companies from the picture--man, wouldn't THAT be nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:27 PM

There's good and bad aspects of PCs of various kinds and Macs, and sometimes things can go wrong and they can really piss you off. But the idea of doing without a computer and relying on a manual typewriter and traipsing down to the library to check stuff doesn't bear thinking of.

That's more of less how I see the relationship between the health care we've got in the UK and in most parts of Europe and in places like Canada and Australia, on the one hand, and what you currently seem to have in the States, on the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 02:00 AM

We just watched Sicko it was a great movie. Light years ahead of his previous ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: GUEST,john f weldon
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:53 AM

I'm Canadian, I'm old enough to remember the days before medicare, when you could die for lack of cash.
I've been suffering from pneumonia lately; when I realized I was sick, I was given an appointment by the my doctor in just two hours; three hours later I had antibiotics in hand.

In the last few years I've had a CAT scan, an MRI, several XRAYs etc, all with very little waiting.

Drugs are covered at 80%, everything else, 100%.

Everything that American right-wing politicians say about the Canadian system is a lie.

It works well, and can truly save your life.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: GUEST,john f weldon
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:02 AM

Sorry, but I really have to continue this rant, but it's important for Americans to understand.

A few years ago, a friend, a penniless farmer, managed to mangle his right hand in a piece of farm machinery. His friends quickly picked up bits of detached fingers from the mud; an hour later he was racing to Montreal in an ambulance with finger-bits in an ice-filled plastic bag.

The operating room was waiting for him when he got there, and a top-notch surgeon put him back together.

It may seem like a snarky joke to say that two months later he was playing the guitar as well as ever, but it's quite literally true. And it didn't cost him a cent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 01:57 PM

I'll be damned, Jack! I agree with you. Sicko was undoubtedly Moore's best film, but many of the people who would most benefit from the information probably won't see it. We have a huge bureaucracy in the States with a vested interest in seeing things continue as they have. But I believe that the AMA is even starting to show signs of coming around. It will take a clear vision and a firm hand to change the system, and I'm hoping that either Obama or Clinton, who both advocate National Health Care, possess the qualities needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 04:24 PM

You are more optimistic about that and me. You saw "Sicko" so you know where Hillary's bread is buttered now.

I think there is a chance Obama can nudge the country in the right direction. I think he will try his best. That is one reason I am working for him. The other is that he has the right ideas about foreign policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:48 AM

10 myths about Canadian healthcare.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 06:27 AM

"You can wait four hours in line in a doctor's office for basic treatment! You can wait months or years for necessary surgery! And the treatment, if you can get it, is far below American standards. And you have no control over who treats you!""

The thing about having no control over who treats you: from what I remnember, isn't that how an HMO works?

One of the things that's probably evident from this thread so far is that, in the UK, it really depends on where you live whether you experience the shortcomings of the NHS or not.

Liz says she has had the 4 hour wait for basic care, but I believe she lives in London. I've lived in villages for most of my time here, and I have to say the care I've received has been first class. From having my caesarean when my daughter was born to a breast cancer scare last year, I've never been left feeling I could have received better care if I'd been paying for it. In fact, when it came to the breast cancer, my doctor said to me, "Don't be tempted to go private - this is one of the things the NHS does better than anyone." He was right. I was on holiday in Greece when i found my lump, and rang my doctor for an appointment while I was still over there. I went in the day after I got back, and had been fast-tracked into the specialist clinic within a few days. At the clinic they treated me with kindness and respect and informed me exactly what was going to happen. Everything was there in one place - it wasn't a case of going here on this day for one test and there on another day for the next one - they did all the tests on the day, and even analysed the results while I was there - I was given the all-clear within a couple of hours of arrival.

Brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:12 AM

"And you have no control over who treats you!"

If your GP is in a group practice with others - which most of them are - you can decide which of the GPs you want to see. (Of course you may have to wait longer to see them than if you just go for the first in line, but that's true in any system.)

And if it comes to needing to see a specialist in hospital you can specify which hospital you want your GP to refer you to.

And it is possible to mix and match - get a test done privately, which can be quicker, and then use that as a basis for NHS treatment.

If anything it seems the NHS gives us more choice in practice than going private, especially if that involves relying on private health insurance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: Alice
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:35 AM

Don't know if this has alread been posted.

Within the week I have watched reporter T R Reid on Charlie Rose and seen the documentary on Frontline.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

Sick Around The World
Comparing 5 capitalist democracies and how they have universal health coverage for all their citizens.

"In Sick Around the World, FRONTLINE teams up with veteran Washington Post foreign correspondent T.R. Reid to find out how five other capitalist democracies -- the United Kingdom, Japan, Germany, Taiwan and Switzerland -- deliver health care, and what the United States might learn from their successes and their failures."

Watch the Frontline documentary. Other countries consider it a human right that a person get medical care without going bankrupt, without losing their house, without being expected to pay when they cannot pay.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:18 PM

"Watch the Frontline documentary. Other countries consider it a human right that a person get medical care without going bankrupt, without losing their house, without being expected to pay when they cannot pay."

I have to say, Alice, this and the free higher education system were two of the main things that made me think that the UK really had it together when I moved here almost 20 years ago. You look after people's health, and you make sure that everyone is entitled to the best education appropriate to their abilities - what they make of themselves then is up to them.

Of course, it's not nearly that simplistic in practice, and several important fundamental principles have been eroded since i've been here. But that basic human right is one that a LOT of people in the UK really take for granted. You really can't understand how important the NHS is until you've had to live without it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: GUEST,Sandra Green
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:29 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:33 PM

Selecting a doctor.

When we extricate people from crashes, and the ambulance guys and gals do their thing, the patients seldom specify the doctor they want to be examined by at the hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:40 PM

I was watching some of the extra features in the Sicko DVD last night. They gave a figure of 18,000 people who die a year because of not having any health insurance. We went to war in Afghanistan and Iraq to the cost of trillions of dollars of tax payer money, because 3,000 people were killed. But we can't afford to put a much smaller amount of money into making sure all people in the US have enough health care to stay alive? We need to change this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 06:51 PM

I watched the Frontline piece. I don't trust it, frankly. I think they're trying to push a market based solution. They didn't say anything at all about the systems in Canada and France. I would have liked to see that.