BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful? US,too?

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 02:55 AM

I should make it known that I'm in the US, home of the undead where there's no national health plan or system at all for the unrich.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 02:52 AM

If it weren't so cold up north I'd probly move to Canada but I'm contemplating Cuba if it gets better there. My wife pays into the family insurance through work & I pay additionally as a disabled on SS for Medicare. So I pay twice. My medicare is far better that the private but both suck. When private my highest monthly med was $175 my lowest was $30, I take 6 different meds per day my monthly bill was killing me, I did better on Medicare but only by half in general & my monthly bill is still killing me but I'll last a few days longer now. Then both have denied me drug coverage because they claim it's not one they cover, that's it flat NO. So I bought one, it cost me $17 a pill , ONE PILL, so I fill it 4 at a time & only take it when absolutly nessary. I've come across this a few times, where the insurance provider decides what they'll cover no matter what the doctor says or how necessary it might be.
Also in this same line is trying to get appointments. I call for me or my kids, if it's something that I believe needs to be addressed right away I have to fight to get an appointment with the office manager whose's telling me that it doesn't sound very importan & we'll see you in a few days to a week when it's a matter of they need to be seen right away. Where's they're medical training come from, she's an office manager, not even a nurse. I have a hospital down the street from the house, within 400 yds. My son called an ambulance when we were out, pains in his chest, he's 17 at the time. The insurance provider flat out won't pay because it wasn't per-authorized (pre-authorize an emergency???), we keep getting a bill for the $500.00 ride. I keep tossing the bill in the trash & tell in hospital to fuck off, call the provider. Who keeps telling them NO.
If you'd ask me, this counrty's health policy is better for animals than humans. They won't let a dog die, from sickness, accident, hunger or cost but they'll turn a poor person from their door if they can't find a dollar in their pocket or an medical insurance card in their wallet or purse. I'm furious, after yrs of paying into a health system, not only mine but people that have been in my employment, I end up scratching for food because I end up paying for meds that I need to keep me alive. Now if only I could find a way to pay for my kids college education! Don't ask about my dental or eye coverage, I can't see my eye teeth through the fumes.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 01:18 AM

gnu, have your brother get another specialist. Have him talk it over with his family physician and tell him why another specialist should be contacted.
I had a spinal problem, and the second specialist (of course after a few months wait) finally made a diagnosis, based on the MRI and x-rays, that led to some treatment that helped.

Physiotherapy, however, is poorly supported here in Alberta; I don't know about other provinces.

If you think a practitioner is bad, get another.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: number 6
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 12:26 AM

Bee ... it's not nonsnese to believe the system is running out of money ... we are at a crossroads now on how long the current system can be sustained ... if we do not arrive a reasonable solution now healthcare will absorb a large majority of government funding in 10 years ... so much so other social programs such as education, care for the elderly will be severely jeopardised.

The country currently is suffering from lack of doctors, shortage of hospital space and lack of funds for maintaining the quality medical infrastructure.

Case in point regarding shortage of hospital space right here at the New Brunswick regional here in Saint John ... "recently an 86-year-old man had to spend the night in a shower room at the Saint John Regional Hospital in the midst of its continuing bed shortage" .. they have also had to put adults up in the pediatric ward.

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not proposing that privatization or even part-privatization is the route to go ... but we can't be fooled and we must be aware that a solution has to be arrived at soon or before we know it our beloved health care system will be gone.

With that, I post a quote from Tommy Douglas, the father of Canada's Health care system ... "Courage, my friends; 'tis not too late to build a better world."

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Bee
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:44 PM

There are bound to be a few bad doctors, a few stupid doctors, a few greedy doctors, in any system. They are human, after all, and just scraping by through med school does not necessarily make a good doctor.

Our family's doctors have taken us through pneumonia, kidney infections, thyroid tumours, hysterectomies, hepatitis, heart disease, diabetes, asthma, peritonitis, drug allergies, and a hundred other afflictions since the beginning of medical insurance in Canada, and only once did one of them make a terrible mistake, one corrected just in time by another doctor - a foriegn one, at that.

I believe we have to be proactive when interacting with health care, asking questions and getting a second opinion if you don't think you're receiving good care.

As for the system in Canada running out of money - it's nonsense: we have a surplus, and politicians must be persuaded to use it where we citizens want it, not where Stevie or his follower want it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:09 PM

Hey, Art, almost the ONLY significant medical expenses I've had in the last 40 years have been for dental work...and it's NOT covered by Canadian medicare! How ironical. The one thing they haven't covered me for is the one thing I've needed.

However, they did take care of my mother with diabetes and my father with liver disease...and either one of those situations would have probably bankrupted my parents without Canadian medical coverage, so I'm grateful for what we have in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 08:39 PM

Not guilty gnu .... I can feel your frustration .... I think it exhibits that not all is that well with our healthcare system here in canada .... though in many ways i feel we are bettr off than our friends south of the border, we do have our faults with the system, and i fear it will only get worse. The money will eventually run out to carry it on.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: gnu
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 08:32 PM

Guilty as charged! My sincerest apologies. I was WAY out of line. I guess I am just upset with our system.... that treats my Bro so poorly.

Maybe if he had decent doc who knew the difference between a dollar sign and a Satanic nerve, he wouldn't be in hell right now. I guess it's the system that is creating this problem.

BTW, his doc sent him for blood tests ($25 she charges to Medicare, over and above the visit charge) and an MRI ($??). Which means he still is not getting the physio he needs. She just doesn't know anything about this common "back problem". She seems to know how to milk Medicare, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 08:30 PM

For my wife and I (both over 80), we are reasonably happy with Canadian health care. Drugs so far have been reasonable in cost (Alberta).
Had to wait for MRI and orthopedic surgeon, but not too bad. If I had wanted the MRI immediately, private clinics here in Alberta would cost (the quote I got) $900 or so. Routine medical with our family physician is quick, about two days for an appointment. Specialists are in short supply, two or more months wait- some patients with money go out of country.
New lenses for our eyes required a wait of about four months; the province limits the number per month.
Just got a hearing aid, needed mostly because I was losing high frequencies. Alberta Health paid half, which isn't bad.
Emergency treatment at the hospitals is hectic because of short staffing; if triage assessment is that it can wait a bit, be prepared to sit for a few hours. There is the odd horror story when a wrong assessment is made, but that happens anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 08:16 PM

gnu .... I don't want to rattle too much here but our doctor is Canadian born, who just happens to be an ex Colonel in the Canadian Military (doctor) who has a list of xtra (out of pocket charges) on her office wall ... one such charge for handicap parking authorization

Regardless, she is an outstanding doctor, and equally on par with our Indian immigrant doctor we had in Toronto ... who never xtra charged for any such service.

I have no problem with immigrant doctors ... I do have problems with incompetant, unqualified doctors whether they are Canadian or from away.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 08:13 PM

There ARE problems with the U K National Health Service - The Main one being that it is no longer National , but Local - Hospital Trusts are totally self governing , so the efficient ones are Great , and the innefficient ones are CRAP ! this is where the horror stories come from , with Cancer patients being refused the drugs that will help their condition . ( The Post Code Lottery)
But for Routine problems , it works ! I had a Strained/pulled chest muscle ! Painful weekend , to the local Doc Monday AM , Appointment Monday 1630 PM Prescription for Painkillers (FREE as I am over 65) from local chemist at 1715 PM , and home at 17.ro PM - Cost ?
£ 0 .00p . I rest my case .

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Bee
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 07:33 PM

I can't find it at the moment, but I read that 2006(or '05?) was the first year that more Canadian trained doctors returned to Canada than left.

Speaking for my Nova Scotia family and friends, most of us would be dead or disabled if it weren't for the Canadian health care system. We've always been mostly low income working rural people. Over my fifty plus years, I've seen a couple doctors make a few mistakes - not a bad ratio, I think.

Wait times are vastly exaggerated, in my experience, though others may have different experiences. The biggest wait complaints seem to be around the issue of joint replacements, which are being ordered up by doctors earlier and more frequently because they now work so well in terms of improved quality of life - well worth waiting for.

My Florida relatives aren't better off financially - less so, in fact. They have a lot of health problems and poor or no insurance with their jobs. My very elderly aunt finally moved home to earn her residency back in order to take care of a minor medical problem she couldn't afford to have done in Fla. A procedure done here at outpatients, home the same day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: gnu
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 07:32 PM

Oh... my Aunt did get sorted. But, Medicare still got billed $25 each for the prescriptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: gnu
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 07:29 PM

sIx!!! TWO hours? So, I could drive to Saint John and back and get in and out faster than driving two minutes from my house to the Moncton Hospital?

BTW... immigrant doctors? My aunt was told by her immigrant doctor that she could only renew one prescription per visit. Had to make four appointments for her four prescriptions. My Bro just had to pay $15 to his immigrant doctor for her to fill out his handicapped parking form... she stamped it and signed it! Ten seconds, tops. She arrived from Africa a few months back. My Bro did 35 years on call 24 hours a day and served in war zones. He does not deserve that crap. And neither does my Aunt.

We have medical schools and we have CANUCK kids that cannot afford to go to them. Fuck the immigrant doctors... send them all home and educate our own.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 06:46 PM

LH, I pay more for my dental insurance than I do for my medical insurance!

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 06:37 PM

It's a pitiable situation when drugs cost more than doctors, in'it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 06:22 PM

What I can say about Canadian health care is that it seems to be quite good going by what I've seen. The only problem is that dental work is not covered. I've not had any notable health problems that required much health care, but my parents both have, and the system here did very well for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 05:20 PM

Well I do believe that one of the biggest costs a doctor has in the US, is insurance. It is such a litigious society that insurance is both mandatory and very expensive.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 05:18 PM

The average cost of health care in the US is about $7000 per capita. I'd guess that if the UK or Canada had that much to spend on health care, the NHS would provide fantastic care.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 04:36 PM

I have health insurance through my retirement from the Fish & Wildlife service, and my part costs me almost $500.00 a month. I don't know what the government pays for me.

However, I have had some serious health problems throughout the last 7 years, and without that insurance, I would be dead broke and homeless.
My latest visit to Mercy Hospital in Portland Maine was for strep throat and a mild heart attack. The bill? $8,700.00.
One item was billed at $400.00 for medication two or three times. I can't imagine what kind of meds cost that much.

Of course, we have to pay not only for ourselves, but for the indigent too. Those millions of poor people who have no insurance at all. When they are stricken they have to seek treatment in the ER where the cost is triple what it would have been if they had insurance. Talk about pennywise and pound foolish!

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 12:06 PM

There should be plenty of spare doctors from the UK and India. After many years of under- recruiting nationally, due in port to the hidebound medical schools, they became reliant on doctors from abroad, many from the Indian subcontinent. Then they radically expanded medical training. Thousands of extra students were recruited, prepared to pay the fees and living costs of years of university. Then last year, the first fruits of this appeared- a glut of junior doctors unable to get jobs in their speciality. To make more jobs available, they reversed policy on overseas doctors abruptly, making it almost impossible for them to get jobs here.

So Canada, recruit away, they're well trained and even if they only stay a few years they'll be worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 11:42 AM

The one major problem I find with the Canadian Health system is the lack of doctors. It seems many of them emmigrate south of the border. The explanation given by the ones (many) who do pack up and leave is that they want what they feel is the big $$ offered by the U.S. non-socialized system.

People who move to New Brunswick from out of province are on (at least) a 1 year waiting list to get a family doctor. If you feel sick you head to your emergency ward of your local hospital and wait 2 hours to see a doctor. There is also a drastic lack of qualified doctors in many of the rural regions of Canada.

Solution I guess is pay doctors more, increase the quota of doctors from our medical schools, make it easier for immigrant doctors to get their licence. Anway, that's my 2 cents worth.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: billybob
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:58 AM

Art,
if I use my private health cover (it costs me about£50 per month to the Insurance company)then I go to a private hospital and any medication is very expensive however we still pay National Insurance which goes toward the NHS.As I said before the NHS treatment Bill had was fantastic.
Some years ago my daughter needed an operation and waited for months for a bed, in the end we paid for her to have the surgery, she had no private health care and it cost about £7,000. Most of the fee went to the hospital for her room etc at £350 per night!It was worth it to get her healthy again.
Most private hospitals do not have an A&E department so if you have an accident you go to the NHS hospital.
wendy

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:39 AM

One of the things that appeals to me about the UK's and Canada's systems is that they seem to be relatively uniform. That is not true in the US - insurance fees, additional payments, prescription charges and so forth are all over the place (for example, I pay much less than Lonesome EJ's example for prescriptions - generally $3 for a 90-day supply). I'm curious how it works for those who choose to go into some kind of self-pay mode; do they pay for additional or faster services on top of what NHS covers, or once they opt out, are they entirely on their own?

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:36 AM

Lonesome EJ - that is complete bollocks. If you are loaded, you can go to Harley Street, get a private prescription, and pay the private cost.

The government will not approve drugs it hasn't trialled as safe. Quite right too.

The government will not pay for drugs that it says have not been proven to be effective - a different issue. The rich can get them, but if the government pays the price the patent-protected drugs companies want, there will be less money for other undoubtedly necessary drugs. The particular issues at the moment are (1) a breast cancer drug that might (some say) save more lives if given earlier. It is given in later stages and the goverment view is that the case for giving it earlier has not been made on medical grounds in view of the cost and (2) a drug alleged to relieve alzheimers, situation totally ditto.

Maybe the wiseass (translation, knee jerk economic fascist) who wrote it ought to check how to spell "free rein" too. I guess it proves you can't buy brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:25 AM

Prescription charges are £6:85 per item prescribed. If you have a long term problem you van pre buy a certificate which entitles you to a reduced charge for a given period.
Certain chronic illnesses are entitled to free prescriptions, as are all people over 60 years of age.
Other charges vary, and cover all sorts of things from wigs to teeth, and surgical supports.

G

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:16 AM

It is time that people were surcharged according to their ability to pay, with those who earn most paying most.

They used to do. It was called supertax. Remember the Beatles, "one for you, nineteen for me"? And society was a LOT better when the rich paid their share.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:14 AM

PS,

I'm a Canuck in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:13 AM

The approximate cost for a family is $1000/year. That will cover darned near everything except drugs--wouldn't want the drug companies to have hard economic times. You may have to share a room after surgery (with one or three others. Depends on the surgery. The surgery doesn't cost. I had a hip replacement and it was about $75. That was because I could afford the $75. Had I not, they'd have replaced the hip anyway.

There can be waits. I waited six months for the surgery--but that was after 10 years of pain, so six months was zip.

You may end up waiting in the emergency room if someone needs the attention more than you. (Had a piece of glass sticking in my arm. Some people from a car crash came in. The medical staff saw to their injuries before mine, which only makes sense.) I suppose I could bitch about them not having enough staff, but I didn't and don't. There are matters of perspective.

NO ONE does not receive treatment if it's life-threatening. Regardless of whether their health care is paid up. There are problems with the system, but that aside, none egregious enough to make me EVER want to see it replaced with private health care programs. That's just a fast-track for rich folks.

IMO

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:10 AM

I don't generally like to cut and paste to threads, but this short article summarizes the Conservative position on a National Healthcare System for the US

British Health Care has Extreme Form of Rationing
Sunday 16 December 2007, by admin



Issue: Want to see the face of government controlled health care, look towards the British system. Cancer patients not allowed to privately pay for needed drugs. Government would rather you die.

1. If you don't think this could happen here, look at our government theft of private property, massive deficits, failed schools, stopping use of BBQ's, fireplaces and lawn mowers. Courts are stopping one third of water coming to Southern California and criminal illegal aliens having free reign on honest U.S. citizens.

2. We have already seen that due to refusal of government to pay for Medi-Cal, hospitals are closed and patients turned away.

3. The only way a system of government health care works is by rationing. In this case, the British government prefers that a woman die of breast cancer, than allow her to pay for drugs to keep her alive. All because they don't want the rich to have good health care, the poor must die.

Why hasn't the Bee or the Times reported on this aspect of government health care. Instead they tell us about lack of coverage for illegal aliens and those who can't afford private insurance (but could get public assistance for health care).

Our health care problems are because of government not the lack of government.

What do you think. If this was your mother or sister, would you be angry at the doctor or the government. Would you say, "OK, let me die, government knows best."

Pass this on, let your friends know what will happen to them under government medicine.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 10:05 AM

I'm curious as to how prescription medications are handled in Britain and in Canada. Here in the US, we generally pay a set fee deductible, 20 or 25 dollars, and the costs of medications can be as hig as 300 to 400 dollars for a 30 day course of treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: redsnapper
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 09:16 AM

The British system is not as good as that of most European countries, e.g. France, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, that have a different administrative system but, on the whole it is still pretty good.

I think Richard Bridge has nailed the main problems with the NHS fairly squarely on the head.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 09:12 AM

The NHS in the UK is wonderful, and I have had reason to be grateful on several occasions for their good care. People complain about all sorts of things, from the food to the slowness of the nurses in dashing to their summons, but that's petty.
True it is creaking at the seams a bit now, but it is under funded, and that comes from two sides, lack of government funding, and an unexpectedly large increase in customers. There are so many people benefiting from it's care who have never paid anything in to the system. I know there is a mechanism for levying charges on those who do not actually qualify, after they have received their car, but I believe it is not invoked very often. So the government is in a double bind, an inability to forecast the numbers that will require treatment, and under contributing from the users of the service.
It is time that people were surcharged according to their ability to pay, with those who earn most paying most.
I mean a 3 tier system where an over night stay will cost either nothing for the less well off, something like £5 for the better off, and £10 for those with deeper pockets. A&E and ambulance services continue to be free at the point of delivery as the jargon has it.
I've been in Greek hospitals, and I know where I'm better off health care wise!
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 08:57 AM

I would like to agree but when I had pleurisy in 1984, it took 6 months to get a diagnosis. Everyone has their horror stories and there will always be success stories - where someone has gone that extra mile... the staff at St Barts in London, where I was in the coronory care unit for a while were fabulous... but the horror stories are the ones you remember.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: billybob
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 08:19 AM

Billy and I have private health care paid for by my company ( so do all my staff)this ensures if any of us need non urgent treatment in hospital it can be arranged to fit in with the running of the business at quiet times for example.
However when Bill's appendix burst last November our GP sent him straight to Colchester hospital with a letter, he was admitted to a ward ( not A & E) and was operated on the next day.The staff were fantastic,the care he was given was professional and the wards were clean!
When he came home he developed a high temperature . I phoned National Health direct and spoke to a nurse who asked lots of questions and decided I should phone our GP and ask for a home visit which I did. The doctor arrived at our house 10 minutes later,he stayed about 30 minutes, was really helpful ,it turned out that he was a surgeon before becoming a GP so explained in depth how complicated the operation had been and told me to ring him if I was worried and he would come out again.
I saw the same GP when I had Pleuisy, Phoned for an appointment at 8.30 AM , saw him that morning, antibiotics and a week in bed , recovered! National Health service worked for us, are we just lucky? No I think if it is a serious problem you usually get treated quickly and very well.
Wendy

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 07:50 AM

The movie "Sicko" answers all of Lonesome EJ's questions. It is available on DVD for rent or sale and is excellent!
Trailer here:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/dvd/trailer.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 03:34 AM

There can be occasional waits for NHS treatment, but for most people the experience is excellent most of the time. For example, when I went to casualty in early January I was seen withing half an hour, X-rayed 20 minutes later, and out of the hospital, knowing I was in the system for follow-ups within an hour and a quarter. My follow up visits have been well organised and efficient.

On the other hand, I have known of incidents where people have not had necessary treatment, incorrect treatment, or have been forgotten by the system. In one case it was because of a pig- headed consultant who could not admit that he was wrong. Another incident was caused by a doctor who changed a friend's medication (probably to a cheaper alternative) and destabilised his condition. A third incident was a GP surgery trying to shuffle off costs onto the local hospital, resulting in a paperwork mess.

Where they do have problems is when treatment is seen as non- urgent. This can include plastic surgery for those damaged in accidents, or treatment that could improve quality of life for a patient, but would be expensive in the short term. Such treatment can be delayed for years, simply by putting up barriers to such people entering the system.

Much of this is caused by the rise in the cost of treatment as technology and medicine develops. But one result of this has been that the government has spent billions on reorganisations and business "experts" instead of on healthcare. In particular, the semi- privatisation of many hospitals has led to a ballooning of administrative costs which are contracted to private (often American) companies for up to 30 years ahead.

No system is perfect. The British NHS works almost all the time, even for very poor people, which is a big plus. It is hampered by the enduring British desire to get something for nothing. Although our health service is much cheaper than most alternative models, and voters consistently claim in opinion polls that they would like to spend more on it, when it comes to the ballot box they will almost always take the tax- cut bribe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 03:33 AM

A system that provides necessary medical help without direct cost to the patient must be a fairer system that rations the necessary by ability to pay.

If (this is not a concession, it is a hypothesis) the US system can deliver medical help of a higher quality and faster it is only better for those who can afford it. It is worse for the rest.

In general, the NHS does deliver prompt help for real need. There are some lacunae.

There are four principal problems with it:

1. Rich bastards who don't want to pay tax and would rather see others suffer than become less rich (and politicians who are scared of them, and doctors who are in it to get rich rather than help their patients).

2. A particular rich doctrinaire political bastard who thought that imposing a layer of unnecessary bureaucracy to create an "internal market" would do anything other than waste the cost of that layer of unnecessary administration.

3. Waste on unnecessary medical help for people who want bigger/smaller tits dicks stomachs etc.

4. Stupid "cost savings" by outsourcing cleaning that (with a little help from religious nuts who say that muslim nurses and doctors need not wash their arms as well as hands because it means baring thier forearms in public) have resulted in ever bigger costs from hospital acquired infections.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 02:48 AM

Can I just point out that it is not the professional healthcare workers (doctors, nurses, osteopaths, dentists, therapists of all kinds and everyone else who actually speaks to and actively treats patients) that are dragging the system down, it's the middle managers who soak up all the money for not a lot of actual output.

I've had my share of 4 and 8 hours waits in surgeries, but I've also had prompt, expert and sympathetic care when it was urgently needed.

All systems have good and bad things. Our system is very open to abuse, but it also means that people in Britain know they can get healthcare without bankrupting themselves or paying out additional health insurance.

At the moment, the NHS is balloting GPs (General Practitioners - the ordinary doctor you go to see first of all) for a response to the proposal for extended working hours. Most will decline the offer, because they make only a set amount of money treating NHS patients and top up their wages with private patients or clinics. Gone are the days when Doctor Finlay would sit up all night with a poorly patient - now you're lucky if they set foot out of the surgery, house calls are a thing of the past.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Ernest
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 02:18 AM

Have you guys learned nothing from the threads about Fidel Castro?

Emigrate to Cuba!

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 01:14 AM

I can't speak from my own experience, but my Canadian husband, who has experienced both systems, dearly wishes we had a system here in the US like the one they have in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 01:07 AM

I'd rather wait the 4 hrs (if that's even true) & get treated than wait until the "12th of never" to be treated cause that's when I could afford to pay, even with coverage from my wife's employer (which covers one tooth extraction & a half pair of glasses & fuck all for meds & all the other blood work & etc that I need to stay alive) & with Medicade. This system's gonna be the death of me yet.

Barry

Subject: BS: Brit /Canadian Health Care Awful?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 12:55 AM

Here in the US, our Health Care system is becoming increasingly expensive and ineffective, with more and more people unable to afford even basic insurance. Insurance companies are deciding who and what they will treat, and even those of us with reasonable coverage are all a major hospital stay away from financial disaster. Emergency rooms are overloaded with the uninsured. And yet there are those, particularly of the Conservative bent, who keep repeating the old saw "we here in the US have the best health care system in the world...look where 'socialized medicine' is being used. Take England, for example..You can wait four hours in line in a doctor's office for basic treatment! You can wait months or years for necessary surgery! And the treatment, if you can get it, is far below American standards. And you have no control over who treats you!"
Now, we hear less about the Canadian System, but still not much positive. It occurs to me that here at Mudcat we have a generous number of Brits and Canadians who could give us first hand observations as to how well "socialized medicine" works for them.

So, how is it working? What are the problems, and how can it be improved? How about other countries like Germany, Russia, Australia?