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Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???

DigiTrad:
KATY CRUEL
KATY CRUEL (2)


Related threads:
Chord Req: Katy Cruel (7)
Lyr Add: Katy Cruel (2) (11)


Jim in Silver Spring 12 May 99 - 10:42 AM
katlaughing 12 May 99 - 11:23 AM
LEJ 12 May 99 - 11:46 AM
Art Thieme 12 May 99 - 11:59 PM
Sandy Paton 13 May 99 - 12:23 AM
Roger the zimmer 13 May 99 - 05:08 AM
LEJ 13 May 99 - 05:02 PM
Art Thieme 13 May 99 - 05:41 PM
Sandy Paton 13 May 99 - 05:49 PM
katlaughing 13 May 99 - 07:17 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 13 May 99 - 08:18 PM
katlaughing 13 May 99 - 09:02 PM
GutBucketeer 13 May 99 - 10:50 PM
Sandy Paton 14 May 99 - 12:13 AM
SINSULL 02 May 05 - 12:07 AM
The Borchester Echo 02 May 05 - 02:44 AM
Bill D 02 May 05 - 10:22 AM
Pete Peterson 02 May 05 - 10:41 AM
michaelr 03 May 05 - 12:42 AM
Hamish 03 May 05 - 05:13 AM
Hamish 03 May 05 - 05:25 AM
Notferjo 03 May 05 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,corey 26 Jun 07 - 02:25 PM
Bill D 26 Jun 07 - 02:47 PM
The Borchester Echo 26 Jun 07 - 03:41 PM
oldhippie 26 Jun 07 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,LGrey 05 Feb 10 - 02:54 PM
Jack Blandiver 05 Feb 10 - 09:06 PM
GutBucketeer 05 Feb 10 - 09:25 PM
MGM·Lion 05 Feb 10 - 09:44 PM
GUEST 06 Feb 10 - 09:14 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 13 Sep 10 - 09:10 AM
Paul Davenport 13 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM
mayomick 13 Sep 10 - 01:33 PM
judyac 13 Sep 10 - 08:57 PM
12-stringer 13 Sep 10 - 11:59 PM
12-stringer 14 Sep 10 - 12:04 AM
Old Vermin 14 Sep 10 - 08:59 AM
Desert Dancer 14 Sep 10 - 11:56 AM
mayomick 15 Sep 10 - 09:39 AM
mayomick 15 Sep 10 - 09:44 AM
Lighter 15 Sep 10 - 10:26 AM
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Subject: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Jim in Silver Spring
Date: 12 May 99 - 10:42 AM

I came across a song in an old song book called Katy Cruel. It has a chorus that really resonates with me:

Oh that I was where I would be
Then I would be wehre I am not
Here I am where I must be
Where I would go I can not
O diddle little day, Oh the little lio day

So I am trying to learn it (I have already found it in the database with slightly different words).

Does anyone know/sing this song? Should it be sung fast or slow? Where does it originate from? Is there a story behind it?

Except for the name Katy Cruel it is pretty gender neutral. Do guys sing it, or is it more of a women's lament? Thanks

Jim in Silver Spring


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Subject: Lyr Add: KATY CRUEL
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 May 99 - 11:23 AM

Hi, Found this at Bruce O's "Scarce Songs" site. Here's the link so you may go listen to the actual tune. Hope this helps:

Scarce Songs

American: "Katy Cruel," said to date from before the Revolutionary War, and to be 'native' American in The American Heritage Songbook, p. 14-15, 1969, with a tune. Text only and citation of original source. Rosa S. Allen's Family Songs, (1899) in Flanders and Brown, Vermont Folk-songs and Ballads, pp. 123-4, 1939 (reprinted 1969). I am grateful to Lani Herrmann for information about the book and note of its present location at The Jackson Homestead, Newton, Mass. Is Katy a prostitute? See "Fancy Lad" following.

Katy Cruel
They called me the "Roving Jewel,"

Now they've changed their tune,
And call me "Katy Cruel"
Oh, diddle lully day,
Oh, de little li-o-day,
Oh, that I was where I would be,
Then should I be where I am not;

Here I am where I must be,
Where I would be I cannot.
Oh, diddle lully day,
Oh, de little li-o-day,
When I first came to town,
They brought me bottles plenty,
Now they've changed their tune,
And bring the bottles empty.

I know whom I love,
I know who does love me;
I know where I'll go,
And I know who'll go with me.

Through the woods I'll go,
Through the boggy mire,
Straightway on the road,
Till I come to my heart's desire.

Oh, that I was where I would be,
Then should I be where I am not:
Here I am where I must be,
Where I would be, I cannot.

Eyes as bright as coal,
Lips as red as cherry;
And 'tis her delight
To make the young folks merry.

Play: S1, KATYCRL For the chorus see the Opie's Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes, p. 231. [A poetical piece commencing identically is in Bodleian MS Malone 19, p. 119, but unfortunately it is not available on microfilm.]


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: LEJ
Date: 12 May 99 - 11:46 AM

Pick up the 1995 CD from Cordelia's Dad called Comet . There is an excellent version of Katy Cruel on it.


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Art Thieme
Date: 12 May 99 - 11:59 PM

Absolutely the BEST version of "KATIE CRUEL" is ever heard is the one done by our SANDY PATON on his 1959 LP on Elektra ( # 148) __THE MANY SIDES OF SANDY PATON__

The late Ken Goldstein said in the liner notes to that album "American soldiers are said to have marched to this sprightly tune during the Revolutionary War, although it's tough to imagine hard New England fighting men singing "diddle lulley day" as they prepared to meet the redcoats. The version sung here has been handed down through many generations of an old Massachusetts family."

This great album (although Sandy says differently) contains the first appearance of "Wild Mountain Thyme" in the U.S.A. Elektra left off one verse of the song (prompting Sandy's dismay and legitimate anger) because of flimsy & contrived time constraints.

Three fine photos of Sandy grace the cover. Hard to find, but worth the effort.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 13 May 99 - 12:23 AM

Jeez, Art! Don't egg 'em on! Your kind words are much more gracious than the album deserves. However, it did contain some good songs, didn't it?

I believe it was Dorothy Canfield Fisher who told Eloise Hubbard Linscott that her family tradition said that her ancestors marched to the song in the American War for Independence. I try not to sing it as fast as many seem to want to take it, trying to find a more "marching" pace. I just heard a tape of Sam Hinton's Library of Congress recording of it, couched among many songs from his west Texas boyhood. I don't know where Sam learned it.

There was a thread about this song family awhile back. Was it about "I Know Where I'm Going" (a version usually considered to be Irish)? Anyway, I connect the song to the Scottish "Licht Bob's Lassie" and "Aye Waukin' O." These are primarily textual relationships, although the "Licht Bob's Lassie," as Isobel Sutherland used to sing it, was sung to the same tune as "I Know Where I'm Going." I consider "Katy Cruel" to be an American member of this extended song family.

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Roger the zimmer
Date: 13 May 99 - 05:08 AM

Sandy, does Art mean fine photos of you are hard to find? Surely not!


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: LEJ
Date: 13 May 99 - 05:02 PM

Just curious, Sandy. What do you consider to be your best work on CD or LP, and where can we get it?...LEJ


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 May 99 - 05:41 PM

Roger, Fine photos of sandy are NOT hard to find at all. Lately, young fine photos of Sandy are in short supply. As Rick Fielding once said in a thread, a younger than now Sandy "looked like a Greek god." I remember. I heard/saw him in '59 at a Sunday afternoon "hoot" at the Gate Of Horn in Chicago.

Art


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 13 May 99 - 05:49 PM

Maybe I'll send one of those 40-year-old photos to Bill D. and let the magic of the internet work (we're all young and handsome on the 'net, aren't we?). My best CD offerings are of other people (like Rick Fielding, Ian Robb, Gordon Bok, Bill Staines, etc.). I didn't start Folk-Legacy to be a vanity press.

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 May 99 - 07:17 PM

I think SandyGramps is being a little modest, phoaks. When I spoke to 'Spaw the other day, he specifically mentioned how he suffers from acute insomnia, even in the hospital and how the only thing that helped him to get to sleep was a cd Sandy sent him, called the Golden Circle Reunion, on which he said Sandy sings and that he could listen to him forever.

I will toot your horn, Sandy! The Golden Circle Reunion is CD 121. You can get it and any other cds of people Sandy mentioned, including our own Rick Fielding at:

Folk Legacy Records

Have fun!

katlaughing


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 13 May 99 - 08:18 PM

I, too, will toot- Sandy still has a voice from heaven, and I would give almost anything (hear me Sandy?) to hear that early recording Art keeps talking about! Allison


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 May 99 - 09:02 PM

Allison,

How was your concert? Wonderful, I'll bet!


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 13 May 99 - 10:50 PM

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.

Again I am amazed at the depth of knowlege The Mudcat draws upon!

I have never heard Katy Cruel sung, but it seems that I will have to speed up how I was learning it. I was singing it rather slow, almost like a lament.

Sandy, I know some of the sound tapes can be listened to at the Library of Congress. Are the field recordings of Sam Hinton accessible? If so, are they in the Folk Life Center? I sometimes go over there during my lunch break.

Jim in Silver Spring


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 14 May 99 - 12:13 AM

I got the tape of Sam Hinton from a fellow who is doing an oral history type of biography of Sam. Sam is now (would you believe!) 82 years young, looks great, and did about 90 school programs last year! The original recordings are in the Archive at the L of C, but I don't really know the process required to obtain copies, but you could certainly ask to hear Sam's recording. You might also go to Jane Keefer's "Folk Index" (you'll find it in the Mudcat links) to see who else might have recorded it. I remember hearing Peggy Seeger sing it, years ago. Carolyn Hester learned it from me when we sang together at the old Gate of Horn in Chicago, and I think she may have recorded it,too. In other words, there ought to be several recorded versions available, even in these latter days.

Allison (with two Ls): Trust me, you don't really want to hear that old record. I was scared spitless in the presence of such as Jac Holzman and Freddy Hellerman. It was a session for a potentially major label (Holzman had a very fancy, walnut-lined office, etc.) and I had recorded previously only for some small labels in England. I felt rushed, intimidated and tense. Everything was sung too high, too fast, and I didn't feel comfortable with Hellerman's concept of appropriate accompaniments, but, since he was "musical director" of Elektra at that time, I was too awed to question his judgement. The record sucks, regardless of what my old friend Art says, bless his everlovin', cotton-pickin' heart.

I'm extremely pleased if my dulcet tones might have helped our beloved Catspaw get some rest when he badly needed it. I sent him that CD because I sing a song on it called "For All the Good People" (written by Ken Hicks) which says: "This is a song for all the good people, people I'm thanking my stars for tonight." And that's what I was feeling about ol' Catspaw. I also invited him to listen to Bok, Muir and Trickett singing "The world is always turning toward the morning," a thought I wanted him to share with his dear Karen, the kids, and his mom-in-law (Clarence?!!) when things looked particularly bleak. I also included the tape Caroline and I made a few years ago titled New Harmony because it closes with the revision I did of the old Irish blessing. These are the words I came up with when working it into a song:

May the roads rise with you,
May the winds be gentle where you stand.
May the Lord smile upon you,
And hold you safely in His hand.

May your friends be many,
May they share your joy through all your days.
May the sun shine upon you,
And warm you on your wandering ways.

May your dreams be peaceful in the night;
May you wake to welcome morning's light.


May the roads rise with you,
May the winds be gentle where you stand.
May the Lord smile upon you,
And hold you safely in His hand.


At least that's what I was thinking, and now that he's having to fight the illness again, I'm still praying, in my own way, that the Lord will hold him safely in His hand.

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 May 05 - 12:07 AM

Just came across this while trying to find lyrics to Katy Cruel
(inspired by Judy's Katie Kane).

I can say this without offence to Caroline 'cause she knows, Sandy is on the Mudcat "ToyBoy" list and at the top of mine. Those early photos were only a teasing preview to the sparkling eyed wonder we all love to cuddle...more a Zeus than an Apollo now but still very sexy.


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:44 AM

Damien Barber does an excellent (and very fast) version of Katy Cruel (interspersed with two tunes The Grumbling Old Man and Tom & Jerry) which he says he adapted from Cordelia's Dad.


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 05 - 10:22 AM

I first heard Katy Cruel in about 1962, in Wichita, from a girl who was traveling from Chicago to New Mexico. I think everyone in our small circle grabbed it and learned it, recognizing the intrinsic power of it. Those were heady days, in which songs which were, in fact, old were just being re-discovered on the fringes of the "folk scare". (especially in the hinterlands of Kansas) We didn't know exactly what we were collecting, but we could spot a gem.

Gee...maybe I'd better see if I can still sing it...I'll bet it's been 10-12 years since I tried.


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Pete Peterson
Date: 02 May 05 - 10:41 AM

I suspect that most of us learned it, directly or indirectly, from Peggy Seeger's 10" Folkways LP "Folksongs of Courting and Complaint." (my copy is obviously the 2nd edition because the accompanying booklet says "copyright 1955, 1962").
Charles Seeger's notes say "A California singer has traced this somewhat nonsense song back to Oklahoma. It is fragmentary and its stanzas, divided into two groups of two stanzas, tell no story. A few of them seem to be borrowed bodily from other songs."


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: michaelr
Date: 03 May 05 - 12:42 AM

I first heard the song on the excellent Bay Area singer Sylvia Herold's CD "A Bowl of Crystal Tears" (Tuxedo Records, 1997). Sylvia plays swing rhythm guitar in a band called Catz'n'Jammers; plays and sings in Guinness-cum-LSD faves Wake The Dead; and is an acomplished Irish music accompanist playing in DADGAD tuning.

Sylvia's liner notes: "This mysterious song is Appalachian, with strong echoes of the Old World. I borrowed the last verse from a related song called "I know where I'm Going". The chorus evokes a sense of futility and longing. Who this Katie is and why she is cruel are questions left unanswered."

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Hamish
Date: 03 May 05 - 05:13 AM

Yep: I do it. I nicked it off Sylvia Herold, who had it on Folk Roots summer 1997 cover CD. She does a lovely, thoughtful and rather wistful version. My version turned out rather more in-yer-face and was for many years a staple of my set. There's an MP3 extract on my site: if it grabs you I can e-mail you the full CD track. It's on my personal page, here.

I've heard The Demon Barbers' version, which is also very fast, and even agressive, but with a strange time signature (I can't recall it now, but it might even be in 7/8). Worth checking out. But try tracking down Sylvia's version if the wistful idea grabs you: it seems to me to suit the words better that way. But sometimes I can't control the way songs turn out! ;-)

p.s. wow! I just did a Google on Sylvia Herold Katy Cruel and there it is: a very truncated bit, but gives you the idea. It's here

Enjoy!


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Subject: Jim in Silver Spring
From: Hamish
Date: 03 May 05 - 05:25 AM

Well I don't guess Jim will be any the wiser. This is his history of messages on the 'Cat:

1 RE: Songs and Tunes for Autoharp?   14-May-99 - 02:18 PM
2 Katy Cruel History/Info???   12-May-99 - 10:42 AM
3 Update of Audio Folk Music on the Web   06-Jan-99 - 11:58 PM

Jim! Jim? Jim?!?!? Can you hear me?!?!?

Well, the offer is open to all you other lovely CatPeople out there: PM me if it's of interest. Even morbid curiosity of the car-crash variety: all welcome!


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Subject: RE: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Notferjo
Date: 03 May 05 - 10:07 AM

I have a copy of "Folk Songs of Peggy Seeger" (Oak Publications 1964)and the book includes this song. She makes the following comment:

"There is hardly a vestige of this excellent song in print, although Cazden includes a curious combination of it with "Devilish Mary" in his ABELARD SONGBOOK. It was supposed to have been a marching song used by the American troops in the Revoltionary Army, but it has covered its tracks admirably in print."

The time signature is very weird: 2/4 3/4 and changes every second bar. Suggested speed is "moderately fast" and I find it easiest to sing fast.

Rosemary


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: GUEST,corey
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 02:25 PM

I don't know much about the history of the song, but you can see a lovely version, sung by Shannon Russell, and watch a neat-o molly dance written by rick nagler on youtube search "Katey Cruel" or click here


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 02:47 PM

That was nice...I never thought of dancing to it, but it worked well....and that is very close to the version I learned way back when...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 03:41 PM

I know not a lot about traditional Molly, only what the revivalist sides tell me, which is that it is an East Anglian custom associated principally with Plough Monday - which is the first Monday after 12th Night - on which the farmworkers get a bit rowdy and rampage about demanding money with menaces.

It's only once a year, penny for the ploughboy (© Colin Cater)

sort of thing.

So hopstepping to an American Civil War song (possibly derived from the 100 Years War and Mutter Courage, though that's only a personal theory) seems slightly odd.

These Minneapolitans (taking it at about half the speed of the Demon Barbers) look as if they might break into a polka any minute and their arms are, well a bit floppy. Though I suppose you Murkans will think I'm nitpicking . . .


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: oldhippie
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 03:46 PM

Katy Cruel does not appear on any of Carolyn Hester's 45s, LPs or CDs. If she recorded it, it would have to be on a compilation such as a Kerrville recording.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: GUEST,LGrey
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 02:54 PM

Karen Dalton does a lovely & haunting version on her album
"In My Own Time". Quite spooky on the banjo.

* * *


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:06 PM

Also worth checking out is Karen Dalton's version on Green Rocky Road.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:25 PM

Damn - All of these old posts are re-surfacing. I started this one almost 11 years ago. Even before I had a login. WoW!

JAB


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:44 PM

Sandy Paton often sang this during his time in London 1959 during which he became a close friend. I have been singing it ever since: was always particularly popular at Sawston folk club near Cambridge which I ran late60s-early70s. The 'Oh that I was' verse served always as chorus. Both the lilt of the tune & the relationship to I Know Where I'm Going have always suggested Irish origin to me.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 09:14 AM

The Northern English song, 'Hexhamshire Lass' has verses and tune in common with 'Katy Cruel'. I don't know how old it is but suspect it predates 'Katy' by a bit. Just thought I'd mention it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 09:10 AM

Searching for this song brought me to this old thread. Refreshing for dear Sandy's sake!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

The song 'Hexhamshire Lass' certainly contains elements which place it in the 17th century (assuming they are synchronous with its origin) The tune is similar to 'Katy Cruel' but not identical and although verses are shared this is not to say that they are related. The chorus is not that common in versions of the 'Hexhamshire Lass'. Still, my gut feeling is that they are linked.
Paul


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: mayomick
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 01:33 PM

I think katlaughing missed line one :
when I first came to this town ,they called me the ramblin' jewel

Would people agree with Mike Seeger's " somewhat nonsense song assessment" that Peter P mentions above ?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: judyac
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 08:57 PM

The first time I heard the song "Katy Cruel" was at the University of Toronto production of a folk opera of the same name. It was 1960, I believe. It was written by David Helwig and Michael Rasminsky. I have no idea what their sources were.

The title track was sung by the female lead. You can hear another song from "Katy Cruel" called "The Black Sailor" at

http://www.davidhelwig.com/gallery.htm

http://www.davidhelwig.com/gallery.htm


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: 12-stringer
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 11:59 PM

Holloway and Black, "Later English Broadside Ballads" (U of Nebraska, 1975), is a collection of ballad sheets from the Madden Collection at Cambridge. Included is this piece, which is annotated "Northern Ireland" and "a very fine ballad":

A New Song, Called Harry Newell

When I came to this town
They call'd me Harry Newell
Now they've chang'd my name
And they call me the raking Jewel

Fal,lal, etc [sic]

They put me to bed
Thinking I was weary
Sleep I could get none
For thinking of my deary

All the night awake


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: 12-stringer
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 12:04 AM

G*ddam*ed tab key!

Holloway and Black, "Later English Broadside Ballads" (U of Nebraska, 1975), is a collection of ballad sheets from the Madden Collection at Cambridge. Included is this piece, which is annotated "Northern Ireland" and "a very fine ballad":

A New Song, Called Harry Newell

When I came to this town
They call'd me Harry Newell
Now they've chang'd my name
And they call me the raking Jewel

Fal,lal, etc [sic]

They put me to bed
Thinking I was weary
Sleep I could get none
For thinking of my deary

All the night awake
All the day am weary
Sleep I can get none
When I think of my deary

Her cheeks are ruby-red
Her lips are like a cherry
Her eyes as black as a sloe
And her hair as brown as a berry

She is a lovely lass
She has my heart in keeping
When I go to bed
She hinders me from sleeping

I'll send my love a letter
And I will entreat her
In Belfast-town with speed
I will be sure to meet her

Down by the Ropery
All thro' mud and mire
Down by Hampster-Place
There liv'd my heart's desire

She was a beauty bright
There's no one can excell her
She was my heart's delight
I know not what befell her.

Reference is to volume 5, slip-sheet 1325 in the Madden Collection. No date given or estimated.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Old Vermin
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 08:59 AM

There's some Hexhamshire connection in our contemporary singing of it. It's now in the repertoire of Guildford Vox. , directed by Anna Tabbbush. Her parents are Carolyn Robson and Paul Tabbush. Paul was first Squire of Hexham Morris in 1976. Carolyn comes from Northumberland and has recorded the Hexhamshire Lass.

I may remember to ask Anna wherre Katy Cruel came from.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 11:56 AM

mayomick -- that was Charles, not Mike, Seeger, Peggy and Mike's father, referred to above ("somewhat nonsense song assessment").

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: mayomick
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:39 AM

Thanks Becky. It does make sense to me -leaving aside the diddle i bits.
The song messes around between the conditional and aspirational meanings of the words would, could and should .

Oh, that I was where I would be,
Then should I be where I am not:
Here I am where I must be,
Where I would be, I cannot.

I would thought that the sense is :

If only I could be where I would like to be
then I wouldn't be here
I am here where I must be
where I would like to be I cannot be


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: mayomick
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 09:44 AM

Should I have written what I would in my last post then I would have included the word "have" .



I would have thought the sense is:


If only I could be where I would like to be
then I wouldn't be here
I am here where I must be
where I would like to be I cannot be


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Subject: RE: Origins: Katy Cruel History/Info???
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:26 AM

There's no doubt about it, mayomick. That's what the words mean here in America too. The syntax is poetic, which in this case means no longer common.


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Mudcat time: 16 July 8:51 AM EDT

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