Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Tech: Equipment for new band

Mo the caller 03 Mar 08 - 10:17 AM
Richard Bridge 03 Mar 08 - 11:39 AM
Mo the caller 03 Mar 08 - 11:41 AM
GUEST 03 Mar 08 - 01:12 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Mar 08 - 01:42 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Mar 08 - 01:48 PM
wysiwyg 03 Mar 08 - 01:54 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Mar 08 - 01:58 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Mar 08 - 02:09 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Mar 08 - 02:14 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Mar 08 - 02:26 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Mar 08 - 02:28 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Mar 08 - 02:33 PM
Wesley S 03 Mar 08 - 02:57 PM
redsnapper 03 Mar 08 - 04:09 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Mar 08 - 04:57 PM
Mo the caller 04 Mar 08 - 05:54 AM
Marilyn 04 Mar 08 - 06:24 AM
pavane 04 Mar 08 - 06:58 AM
Richard Bridge 04 Mar 08 - 07:04 AM
GUEST,baz parkes 04 Mar 08 - 07:28 AM
Mo the caller 04 Mar 08 - 07:35 AM
Mo the caller 04 Mar 08 - 07:47 AM
Leadfingers 04 Mar 08 - 07:52 AM
Marilyn 04 Mar 08 - 08:05 AM
Marilyn 04 Mar 08 - 09:21 AM
bill\sables 04 Mar 08 - 12:13 PM
Marilyn 04 Mar 08 - 12:39 PM
Grab 04 Mar 08 - 12:42 PM
Marilyn 04 Mar 08 - 12:52 PM
treewind 04 Mar 08 - 01:41 PM
Mo the caller 04 Mar 08 - 02:03 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Mar 08 - 02:20 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Mar 08 - 02:21 PM
Leadfingers 04 Mar 08 - 03:05 PM
Richard Bridge 04 Mar 08 - 05:29 PM
Mo the caller 05 Mar 08 - 05:03 AM
GUEST,Richard Bridge 05 Mar 08 - 06:48 AM
Mo the caller 05 Mar 08 - 08:25 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:







Subject: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Mo the caller
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 10:17 AM

We are setting up a new barndance / ceilidh band and I need some advice about equipment. We want to keep our prices down to start with, so I want to use what I've got as much as possible, not set up a sound system that would fill the Albert Hall.

I have 2 Coomber boxes that play tapes, they each have 2 microphone and one aux sockets. One is 65Wmpo 30Wrms and claims to be suitable for area of 1 badminton court. The other is 160Wmpo 75Wrms, suitable for 2 badminton courts. They can be linked together.
There is a separate volume knob for tape and input, also bass/treble controls for each, but no way of balancing the different inputs.

We went out last week, I plugged my radio mike into one box, the two other mikes into the other box, and balancing the 4 players was a matter of moving their chairs nearer or further from the 2 mikes! (It was a small room, we hardly needed amplification)

I think we should do better than that so I'm planning to buy 2 more mikes and stands, and a cheap mixer. What should I look for? I don't want to spend a fortune, but I don't want to waste money on something unsuitable. One of the mikes (a Coomber) I've got is very noisy if you hold it or switch it on and off. How can I avoid this?
How much will it cost me (UK)

I've got Bernard's advice on setting up a sound system just need a sound system now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 11:39 AM

Where are you?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Mo the caller
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 11:41 AM

Cheshire


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:12 PM

Twice as many channels as you think you need.

Stu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:42 PM

Funnny, the system just ate my last post. I'll prepare something off line and be back.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:48 PM

The Coomber stuff (I found their website) looks way underpowered and wholly unsuitable. The prices on their website are also from another planet.

I recommend having twice as many input channels as you need and two spare would be the barest minimum

What is the maximum number of instruments you will ever, ever, have?
Plus what is the maximum number of vocal mics you will ever, ever, have.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:54 PM

Mini-mixers to add channels can be gotten cheap to tide you over, until you can get the biggest mixer you'll want, and let's face it-- no matter how many channels you get, really there are still never "enough" channels once you factor in guest players, the number of instruments people like to bring along and leave plugged in, etc, the occasional big event you'll want to be able to handle, etc.

That's where the "sound" game gets you-- the "etc"s.

Also, label each and every piece, plug, cord, etc. as it arrives, including date of acquisition. You'll wish later that you did.

~S~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:58 PM

Can any of the instruments plug in directly without a mic? Too many mics on stage makes for a muddled sound.

Here is an almost unbelievable deal for 4 mic stands - £55 all in delivered with mic clips. Not my favourite mic stands and maybe not all that durable, but CHEAP!

a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4-X-Pro-Microphone-stands-c-w-clips_W0QQitemZ310026405330QQihZ021QQcategoryZ47063QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQ">http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4-X-Pro-Microphone-stands-c-w-clips_W0QQitemZ310026405330QQihZ021QQcategoryZ47063QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQ


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 02:09 PM

GET THIS SET OF MICROPHONES!

I like the AKG D880s better than the Shure SM58 and this looks like a god-given chance to snap up a set for a bargain. You should bid readily up to £150 and maybe up to £200.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AKG-D880-Microphones-with-case-x-5_W0QQitemZ320223296691QQihZ011QQcategoryZ29950QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQc


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 02:14 PM

Buy 4 of these mic leads (and when you get them colour code them with coloured tape)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/XLR-to-XLR-Mic-Signal-Lead-6M-Long-BLACK_W0QQitemZ310025890561QQihZ021QQcategoryZ23783QQssPageNameZWDVWQQr


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 02:26 PM

This mixer-amp and speaker system is stupidly cheap. Only 4 mic inputs but surely you can plug in some of your instruments. Only 2-channel EQ too, but it WILL be better than the Coomber stuff for your purposes.

RCL stuff is usually pretty poor, and the speakers inefficient, but it is SO cheap

I'd take the chance.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PA-Power-Package-Karaoke-Powerd-Mixer-Amp-Speaker-500W_W0QQitemZ180219757636QQihZ008QQcategoryZ47094QQssPa


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 02:28 PM

2 reasonable speaker stands


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 02:33 PM

But if you cannot afford to get a cheap powered system and want to stick with the Coombers, here is a really good little mixing desk at present at an absolute bargain price

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/yamaha-MG16-4-Mixing-Console_W0QQitemZ260215316358QQihZ016QQcategoryZ23785QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZVie


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 02:57 PM

"Too many mics on stage makes for a muddled sound."

Agreed. That's why a lot of bluegrass bands are going back to the single mic arrangement. You stand in a semicircle around the one mic - then if you have a solo you move a little closer. Our trio has started working that way and we've noticed a big improvement in our performances.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: redsnapper
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 04:09 PM

I've had good results with my 300W Yamaha StagePas 300 for ceilis. Small, mixer and leads pack away into enclosures, and highly portable.

RS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 04:57 PM

Most Yamaha stuff is OK (although I am not a fan of thier speakers) but it is nearly twice the price of the JCL I linked to.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Mo the caller
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:54 AM

Thanks for all the links. I've passed them on to our nominated sound man.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Marilyn
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:24 AM

Nominated sound man's wife here (because he can't get to the computer at the moment and I'm a player in the band anyway!).

Richard: none of our instruments can be plugged in directly; our line-up is melodeon, concertinas and whistles/recorders so we have to use mics I think. We're unlikely in the future to have any instruments that can plug in (even with the guest musicians who are likely to join us) so need to allow for all mics.

Might be a stupid question (but we're very, very new to this) - how many mics before the sound starts to muddy noticably?

Rookies question no. 2 : how feasible is it for two instruments (the two concertinas, say) to share a mic?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: pavane
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:58 AM

Just a note:

Pickups can be added to many (most) instruments (including accordion, melodeon, fiddle etc)

Trying to balance the different instruments just using mics can be tricky. And unless you get GOOD mikes, you will always have problems with feedback howl.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:04 AM

I've seen pluggable button melodeons. Problem here is that to mic a free-reed instrument with buttons on both ends you really need two mics, one at each end, and then the player has to stand very very still. I reckon 5 mics on stage is where you really really start to lose clarity unless you have a huge stage and can put the mics miles from each other. But with rock bands I used to have to put up 7 on drums, 1 for each of two guitar cabs, and 3 vox so that made 12, but the guitar mics were down low so they were not too much of a problem. But you got the guitars on the drum mics, and everything on the vocal mics. Using gates helps, but then you are into extra cost and complexity.

Whistles and recorders are sods to mic well too, because of wind noises and the sound comes out of the whistle block or fipple, not the end and you need an expensive space echo on recorders to get them to ring nicely anyway.

2 threepenny bits sharing one mic will make it almost impossible to separate who is doing what, and you will tend to get one player's left hand and the other's right hand, and with a cardiod mic there will be a tendency for each to slip off the edge of teh pickup pattern. I really don't like the idea.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:28 AM

And dont' forget to get it PAT tested...many halls won't let you in unless you can show your certificate.

Baz


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Mo the caller
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:35 AM

Should we stick with only playing in small enough spaces to do it unamplified then?
This is starting to sound expensive, and I wanted something to fill the gap between the price of me doing a tape gig (which I don't enjoy anyway), and an established band.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Mo the caller
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:47 AM

My existing stuff is PAT tested.

Then of course there's Public Liability. I'm a member of EFDSS, so am covered. Do the others need to be insured separately?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:52 AM

Mo - As we dont know what instrumentation OR numbers in band , its a bit of a 'How Long is a Piece of String' question . For MOST Ceilidh / Barndance situations you shouldn't need more than two or three Hundred Watt , with a seperate channel on the mixer for each mic or instrument , ideally with a couple of spare channels . A Radio Mic for the caller is a distinct advantage , especially if you want to be 'On The Floor' rather than on stage ! Pick Ups on instruments are a lot easier than microphones , and dont need satnds either .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Marilyn
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 08:05 AM

Thanks Richard - your answer was very informative.
And thanks Baz - I hadn't even given PAT a thought.

So, for four musicians (we're not likely ever to have more) we need four mics plus the radio mic for Mo (the caller).   Perhaps, with this number, the sound won't be muddy enough for us to worry unduly.

The recorder will be difficult to mic anyway but that's the musician who isn't likely to be there very often so perhaps it isn't something we should lose any sleep over.

Neither of my melodeons is pluggable although the Saltarelle has velcro stuck on both sides which suggests that it's previous owner used two mics with it.

I have to admit that I'm seriously wondering whether we need amplification. My late brother in law had a dance band with a line up of piano (said brother-in-law), saxophone or clarinet, double-bass and, occasionally, a guitar. They played in some very big halls for dances with 150-200 people (I know cos I was there) and were never, ever amplified. It didn't seem to be a problem so what has changed that makes amplification so necessary these days? A melodeon, two concertinas and a recorder can make a hell of a lot of noise. Is it just that people expect amplified music and feel cheated if they don't get it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Marilyn
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 09:21 AM

Pavane: Pickups can be added to many (most) instruments (including accordion, melodeon, fiddle etc)

That's interesting. The melodeon I use in the band is a lovely 3-row Castagnari. If I had a pickup fitted do you think it would lower the re-sale value of the instrument? I have a Saltarelle Irish Bouebe too but that isn't so useful for 'banding' so there wouldn't be much point in having that one modified unless I started using it in the band more.

It sounds a little bit like vandalism to me and I would be awfully reluctant to butcher my Castagnari without very good cause, but if it didn't (a) damage the melodeon in any way and (b) affect the re-sale value then it would be worth considering.

The next question, of course, is where or by whom would I get this done?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: bill\sables
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 12:13 PM

You can get melodeon and concertina and recorder/whistle pick ups from Microvox they don't harm the instrument in any way as they are stuck on with velcro. The melodeon and concertina pick ups amplify both right and left hand with only one imput into the amplifier, and they have a knob to ballance between left and right.
Bill


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Marilyn
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 12:39 PM

Bill: "You can get melodeon and concertina and recorder/whistle pick ups from Microvox they don't harm the instrument in any way as they are stuck on with velcro."

Thanks, Bill - will Google for Microvox and see what I can find.

I had thoughts of someone drilling a hole in the Castagnari and wasn't too keen on that idea at all!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Grab
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 12:42 PM

On advice from Richard and Anahata, amongst others, I bought some Sennheiser e835's and they're lovely for women and higher-voiced blokes. They sound much, much better than SM58s, and you can pick them up for around £40 on eBay. (Beware that there are fake e845 mics going around on eBay - I got ripped off on that. Don't seem to be fake e835's around though, and buy from a decent place for safety.) They don't seem to work as well for deeper and rougher voices, being too transparent, so an SM58 (or PG58 which is cheaper) might be better for deep-voiced blokes.

You stand in a semicircle around the one mic - then if you have a solo you move a little closer.

Presumably though you'd need an omni mic, thereby stopping you using foldback because it guarantees feedback, and potentially opening the door to feedback anyway when the sound from the main speakers hits the back wall and comes back again. And getting close to a single mic with a squeezebox will actually *reduce* the sound reaching the mic, since their noise is coming out the ends instead of out the middle.

Marilyn, your point about "do you need amplification?" is worth considering. If you're only playing pubs, it's quite likely that you wouldn't, except maybe for the recorder which is generally a bit weedy - remember that the recorder player's mic wants to be pointing at the player's mouth (or technically at the fipple, but getting them to aim their gob at it is a good start). You *will* need amplification for the vocalists though.

To see how it's all going, it's worth spending £20 or so on renting a local church hall that's about the same size as where you're going to be playing, and have a trial run. That'll give the sound-person a chance to try stuff out before doing it for real, and it'll let you find out whether your music really is filling the room enough. If it's only particular instruments that aren't carrying (most likely the recorder and whistle) then you can get mics for those and leave the noisy ones (squeezeboxes) to their own devices.

If you can get a mixer with built-in FX (ie. built-in reverb/echo) then definitely get that. Reverb is the single best thing you can do to improve sound, especially for voices, and you'll really miss not having it.

For leads and mic stands, Thomann take some beating. http://www.thomann.de. Also Digital Village at http://www.dv247.com are cheap. Between the two of them and eBay, you're going to get the best prices for stuff. Thomann have own-brand gear which is OK, as well as the usual branded stuff.

The question no-one has asked yet: How much were you thinking of spending, and how long do you want this gear to last you? £400-500 should be enough for some decent-quality kit that'll last a while. But if you were thinking more in the £100-200 region, you'd want to be checking eBay for deals and doing a lot of web research.

Graham.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Marilyn
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 12:52 PM

Graham : thanks so much - a lot of very useful information there.

We won't have any singers at all and the only 'vocalist' will be the caller (Mo) so I just wondered whether we might only need the one mic for her. But you're right, although the squeezeboxes would be heard, the whistle or recorder might disappear!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: treewind
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 01:41 PM

Mo, You will need a PA. It's not about the size of the room, it's about the amount of noise you get from people talking/shouting. You might get away without it at your local dance club but as soon as you have the excited atmosphere of a wedding, family or student party you'll be drowned out by the noise.

Insurance: your personal PLI won't do, but you can have the band join as an affiliated member of the EFDSS and get PLI that way, covering whoever is in the band + caller even if it's different people each time.

Sharing mics: don't. One concertina needs two mics, one on each side. If you want lots of small, cheap and perfectly serviceable mics, get some Behringer C2s. Barely over £40 a pair - your mixer will need to be one that supplies phantom power to the mics. I used a pair of C2s for my boxes and cello at the Frodsham concert with Jez Lowe - you were there, Mo : did they sound OK? Get them from Digital Village or Thomann, good places to shop around for the rest of your gear too.

Anahata


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Mo the caller
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:03 PM

Yes indeed they (you) sounded very OK. We were near the front, I don't know if we were hearing 'you' or the sound system.
I've got my radio mike for calling, will look at those for the instruments.
Grab, the answer to that one was, as little as I can get away with, in case we don't get many gigs. But not so little that it's wasted on rubbish.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:20 PM

Bargain bargain Yamaha mixing desk


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:21 PM

And for pity's sake buy those AKG mics I linked to above.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 03:05 PM

I was going to suggest Microvox , but Bill beat me to it

And Richard - That link doesnt work for me .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:29 PM

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Yamaha-MX12-4-Mixing-Console_W0QQitemZ320221449885QQihZ011QQcategoryZ23785QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Blickifier must be screwed up


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Mo the caller
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 05:03 AM

I looked on the Yamaha page and couldn't find a mixer with that code, and all the description are gobble-de-gook to me. What would that one be worth new / second-hand?
This all seems far more complicated the more I look at it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 06:48 AM

MX 12-4 (since discontinued) perfect for your needs (but has no power amp so you will have to use teh Coombers until you get something better). If you get it for £100 you will have a bargain.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Tech: Equipment for new band
From: Mo the caller
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 08:25 AM

Obviously other people thought so too. It went for £135.
I'm waiting till I've digested all this info before I plunge in and buy bits and pieces that may not be compatible.

Thaqnks for all the advice, we've got lots to think about.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 13 November 1:37 AM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.