BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God

Subject: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:33 AM

I really would.

Surely 'He' could make it easier???

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:40 AM

Ed, go to the zoo and rattle your walking stick along the bars of the tiger cage if that's the sort of fun you want.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:43 AM

No one is preventing you.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 08:07 AM

Surely 'He' could make it easier?

Sounds like it's not God you need, more like vaseline.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 08:54 AM

Oh, I don't know. I went through a long adolescent-angst period of wishing I could believe in some god, but I just couldn't take that step of actually having faith. I went to houses of worship and I think that if any HUMANS working there had actually shown any compassion for an angst-ridden and occasionally hysterically weeping teenager, I might have been convinced that they were following some higher power.
Now, I can see that what I really needed was that human compassion, but at the time, I thought whatever was bothering me was hopelessly beyond the reach of human aid.

Of course, the antidepressants of adulthood don't hurt, either.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 09:12 AM

Just use your imagination!

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Shaneo
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 09:30 AM

The first step would be for you to read the bible, give us a shout when your finished. [the catholic one]

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 09:36 AM

Gosh - it's been several days since we had an anti-religion thread here at the Mudcat. I was beginning to wonder. Let me guess - all the same people are going to show up and say all the same things they've said in all the other threads. For about 5 or 6 hundred posts. Thanks "Guest Ed".

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 09:58 AM

In what way is "I'd like to believe that there is a God" please, "Wesley S"?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 10:04 AM

Sure, Ed. You have my permission. Go ahead and start.

Ther good part is you get to design him according to how you want his impact on the world to seem. And you can always write a second edition if the old one seems to extreme one way or the other.


And, yes, belieiving in a God will "make it easier", no question, at least in the short-term.


A

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 10:21 AM

When one reallly wants to increase one's faith, the internet is not the environment from which one generally can do it. It's about relationship.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 10:29 AM

You have nothing to say, Ed? You just want others to create several hundred posts for you to read...with the same result as last time?

No thanks....

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 10:31 AM

Is there some motive or justification in your yearning?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: mack/misophist
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 10:39 AM

If you want to believe, try this logic quiz to discover what you want to believe. You may surprize yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 10:41 AM

Mudcat is not the place to come for solace or a friend. Cruelty, criticism, debate and one-upmanship, yes. Kindness, no. Sorry Ed

I don't believe in a god that can make everything better. You look for that with loved ones, and if you don't have any of those, you try to figure out what you can do for yourself. Find out what you love and focus on that, because, in my opinion, external things, religion and other people, can and will let you down. It doesn't even mean they did anything wrong.

Ignore this or post on topic. I swear, if someone came in here and said they were thinking about suicide, a semi-regular Mudcat regiment of sanctimonious, knee-jerk offended, judgmental, know-it-all assholes would egg him on. Either that or bitch about the fact he posted.

I miss compassion...
I miss people being able to shut the fuck up when they don't have anything positive to say. Then again, I don't think Mudcatters were ever any good at stifling the urge to attack when they smelled blood.

---

I Think It's Going To Rain Today    (in the DT)
© Randy Newman

Broken windows and empty hallways
A pale dead moon in the sky streaked with gray
Human kindness is overflowing
And I think it's going to rain today

Scarecrows dressed in the latest styles
With frozen smiles to chase love away
Human kindness is overflowing
And I think it's going to rain today

Lonely, lonely
Tin can at my feet
Think I'll kick it down the street
That's the way to treat a friend

Bright before me the signs implore me
To help the needy and show them the way
Human kindness is overflowing
And I think it's going to rain today

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 10:57 AM

Ed:

Being slightly stung by Jeri's rematrks, I woud like to add this small thought: you have in you whatever you need to make "it" easier. You will do this on the path that is most suited to your own deep well-springs of knowing.

I wish you joy and good fortune.

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:00 AM

Thank you, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:09 AM

"Read the Bible" someone says. The point has been made by people wiser than myself that part of the problem is too many people only look at the Cliff Notes version, if even that. Most simply follow the leader down whatever bigotted path they want to travel. Critical thinking is rarely a major feature of organized western religion, especially christianity.

Ed, you have to decide what is important to you, and what is sacred to you. It may or may not be in the context of an organized church or in the company of others.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Arkie
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:29 AM

Ed, if you are serious in this desire, belief will come to you, but Mudcat and other internet sites, as has already been suggested are not the best places to find encouragement. Belief in God is the developing of a relationship and that is best found in a community of believers but one might have to do some experimenting since not all communities of believers are equal in terms of nurturing. I would also suggest reading the Bible and you might start with Paul's Letter to the Romans and the Gospel of John. Belief and trust in God is a relatively simple thing and does not require acceptance of a multitude of dogmas and laws. Beware of communities that attempt to inflict them upon you. They can be helpful as explanations but are not to be considered conditions of faith. Belief in God does not make life easy. It will help in handling the difficulties of life, but they do not go away. Faith does sometimes come with a struggle. This was certainly true for Augustine and many other great teachers and leaders in the Christian tradition.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:37 AM

Nonsense about Mudcat not being a place to find a friend, or solace. Both are available here in abundance.

And I was very serious in my desire, when I had it, and belief did NOT come to me. Now, I'm not sorry, but at the time, I was. How do y'all do it, really? How do you take that leap, if you didn't have faith as a child?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:43 AM


Mudcat is not the place to come for solace or a friend. Cruelty, criticism, debate and one-upmanship, yes. Kindness, no.

Unless under certain and specific circumstances, i.e. Here, HERE, or, HERE with the latter two being heavily laced with humour.

I know those types are in the minority, but Mudcatters do come through, sometimes.

Ignore this or post on topic. I swear, if someone came in here and said they were thinking about suicide, a semi-regular Mudcat regiment of sanctimonious, knee-jerk offended, judgmental, know-it-all assholes would egg him on. Either that or bitch about the fact he posted.

On the other hand, I agree. We've seen way too much of this, imo and I miss the compassion, too. A whole bunch! I know it never comes down to just one person, but I sure don't remember the nastiness being so prevalent when Rick was still here. I miss him.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:44 AM

The man didn't ask for the Mudcat to make it easier for him to believe in God. He asked for God to do it. In the context of this thread the only way I could see that happening would be a good old fashioned smiting. So I'm outta here, looking over my back for lightning bolts the whole way.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: autolycus
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:55 AM

i Subject: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Ed - PM
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:33 AM

I really would.

Surely 'He' could make it easier???



   There is another way to look at that. Ir may not be a God making it difficult for you. It may be you who's making it difficult for you. Which would put you in the majority.

   If we are not prepared to be true to ourselves, then everything gets skewed as a result. The struggle is how to get from where we are to the place of being true to ourselves. There are, after all, many pressures to do otherwise.

   And the opening words of "The Road Less Travelled" are ,'Life is hard'. It's just that we are liable to make it harder. And if we can find another to blame for our travails, well, that lets us off the hook.

   the words 'light' and bushel', never mind 'talents' and 'parables', spring to mind.

    The massive advantage of 'God' is to relieve us of a load of responsibility. However, I've said stuff like that before, and peoiple tend to make for the exit post haste. Which I understand.    Often, I-I-I-I would rather someone else took responsibility for more of me, too.


   Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: MaineDog
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:56 AM

Well,
Think about where you might have come from.
If you beleive that you are a product of slime and time, then I hope you ennjoy it.
I prefer to see myself as a child of the Living God, and enjoy the benefits He promises. As others have said, YOU get to choose. Surprise!
MD

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:58 AM

Right you are, Ivor. It all comes down to our own free will and what we create with it, our words, and our thoughts and actions.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 12:10 PM

ANd there is a third option, not to be overlooked; where you may come from is not just slime and time, but your own profound spiritual nature using "slime and time" as am eans to communicate. In the Hindi greeting, "Nemaste", the thought is "The god within me celebrates the god within you". We may be, ourselves, the dance of a million gods. If so, one wonders who the musicians are... (just kidding).



A

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 12:14 PM

If we are the dance of gods, can we not also be their musicians ala John Hartford and others?:-)

Namaste.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 12:51 PM

I hate these religion threads. I tell people I'm a believer because that is what I am; but I've found that when most people hear I'm a believer, they then pigeonhole me into whatever their understanding of belief is - in many cases, that seems to mean they think that I'm some sort of rigid automaton, marching to the drum of some demagogue. I can't even clap my hands to a rhythm somebody else sets, so I certainly can't march to anybody else's beat. I feel far more comfortable in a nebula, not tied to some rigid system of doctrine. I like to ponder things and see truth and beauty wherever it exists, and I'm not so sure I believe in Absolute Truth.

Or maybe I do, but my Absolute Truth can't be confined to words. The closest thing to absolute truth I know is the towering Ponderosa Pine on the edge of our ridge. It frames and enhances our sunsets, and it's the edge of our world - beyond that pine is the Coast Range, well over fifty miles away. I can ponder that pine forever, I think. There are other things of a more religious nature that I ponder, but those are things I can't share in this environment.

I can sing gospel and some other religious songs in any setting, because those songs are not sacred to me. For some reason, I can't sing that ones that are sacred to me unless the environment is right, and that doesn't happen very often in a folk music setting. I don't want anybody to feel that I'm imposing something on them (we did suspend the rules and had a wonderful hymn sing from the Quaker hymnal at Camp Harmony, though).

That being said, there have been some very good things said in this thread, from believers and nonbelievers alike. I especially appreciated what Arkie had to say.

For me, faith is a means of exploration, not a code of answers. Many people don't have that understanding of faith, but that's what it is for me - more questions than answers, more pondering than pontificating. That, and Ponderosa Pines (and an excuse for alliteration...)

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 12:56 PM

Point of clarification: by suggesting that people don't read the bible or that they have internalized an abbreviated version of the bible, I wasn't implying that it is in any way helpful to finding your god or anyone's god. I meant that people decided to believe in what they think it is about, what their leaders tell them, what suits them. It is a document with accounts and stories that have been so heavily modified and mediated by religious power brokers and heads of state that wise people might consider the document unreliable. Better use it as a source of literature. If you are interested, dig up the discussion of reading the bible by Julia Sweeney.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 01:09 PM

my Absolute Truth can't be confined to words


There you have it in a nutshell; this is the closest thing to an absolute any of these threads has been able to spark up, and the only statement that makes permanent sense, IMHO.


A

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 01:29 PM

A simple understanding of ths problem is that a person can't be made to believe anything that he cannot "see," or somehow otherwise sense and accept. On one level, that's certainly true. If I've never seen Santa Claus, and have been given all kinds of evidence that Santa Claus is nothing more than a charming fiction, then I certainly cannot be made to believe that the jolly old elf actually exists.

On another level, however, after living through a process of doubt and questioning and settling into a stance of profound agnosticism ~ when a person comes to the realization that neither the existence not the nonexistence of a God can be proven to one's satisfaction ~ it is possible for one to simply decide to believe, to decide to live one's life in the light of faith and hope, not in the shadow of doubt and cynicism.

A good first step is to discard all earlier notions of what God is, while remaining open to entirely new ideas of what God might be.

I suppose that you, like me, find it impossible to believe in a God who is a white-bearded old man floating on a cloud, kinda like Santa Claus except meaner. Anything you've ever been told about God that you find unbelievable, simply discard every such notion. If you can't believe in a creator who is essentially a grouchy old man, don't believe in that notion of God, but keep the door of your mind open to belief in another, more plausible and more sophisticated vision of the Divine. If you find it impossible to believe in a Supreme Being who makes everything easy and right for you, by all means reject belief in that very superficial notion of God, too, but reserve judgement on the existence of a God whose ways are beyond your understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 01:29 PM

If you're being serious, Ed, then "seek and (perhaps) ye shall find", but try to put aside your prior expectations about the precise nature or attributes of this "God" you say you'd like to believe in. (For instance, why would it have to be a "He"?)

If you're not being serious, well, have fun in whatever fashion suits you, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 01:58 PM

Why at www.addall, I saw an interesting quote:

Faith is not belief without proof, but trust without reservations.

~ Elton Trueblood ~

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:06 PM

Excellent.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: autolycus
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:19 PM

Joe, People pigeon-hole each other constantly, on every subject, not just religion. And there's nothing one can do about that.

I csnnot make another see anything the way I see it. The whole contents of any of the world's libraries prove that,[never mind 'net discussions.].

And Joe, believe it or not, other people think that you and I, severally, have got them dead wrong. ck! (How wrong can they get    :-) ).

And then there's how different sects of various religions think they're right and the other sects wrong.

people need to have patterns of understanding to get along. An interesting question might be why more people don't say more often,"I don't know."

hence - Q.Why did the children of Israel spend so many years wandering in the desert?

          A. Because the leaders wouldn't ask for directions. (No doubt they just kneeeew where they were going.)


   Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:44 PM

I suppose you're right, Ivor. It's too bad, though, that we seem to have this human compulsion of reduce each other to no more than just a paragraph, a sentence, or sometimes only a word. We dismiss each other as "conservative," "liberal," or maybe "idiot" - and then pay no further attention to a person unless he or she thinks exactly the way we do.
I'd like to think folkies are better than that. They are --- sometimes.

I've found a good many Mudcatters who don't agree with me, but still take the time to listen and to appreciate what I have to say.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Partridge
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:49 PM

I believe that god is our consciense. There is a god and its within you.

Do as you would be done to
Pat xx

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 03:04 PM

" A. Because the leaders wouldn't ask for directions. (No doubt they just kneeeew where they were going.)"

Remember Golda Meir's famous quip? "Our people wandered the desert for 40 years...then settled in about the only place in the Middle-East without oil!"

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: autolycus
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 03:29 PM

I spent years in my therapy training partly on this exact point which amounts to really knowing that even the simple 'other' with you is a person as real as you

It was in the process of getting to know myself that others became more and more real, too. And how many are willing to follow the edict of many religions, the Oracle at Delphi, the words of many wise people from e.g.Socrates on ,and others, to "Know Thyself"?

We learn many ways to manipulate the environment (which includes others) to get what we want. Much of commonsensical daily life runs counter to treating others as real, flesh-and-blood,feeling people. It can be a lot of hard work ro start to 'get'/have that experience. Really hard work, sometimes. I suspect if we really made that effort, our existing social set-up would break down. That depends on us pigeon-holing and manipulating each other a lot for its very functioning. It's one thing to truly relate with those closest to us. With everyone,on the other hand, is a whole other ball of wax.

Course we'd all be better in terms of functioning and living with each other - being truly responsive, caring, loving, real, present, with each other - having that as the foundation of our society. Tho' how the 'ther(s)' might respond to that 'treatment' is yet another matter. They might not be able to handle it. But......

I dunno.


   Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:01 PM

Amos, thanks for your kindness above. I sometimes get frustrated with the way things seem to be here.

I don't believe in deities and I don't believe in religions. If I did, I'd probably be a pagan. Things aren't inherently good and evil, but simply have power.

I believe we can all be better than we are, myself included, and the only thing that keeps us and our situations from being better is that we stop trying. In this world, hope is the great good and despair the great evil. That's what pisses me off here sometimes: we can be better, but we don't try. It bothers me when I do it, and it bothers me when others descend to whomever's level instead of trying to climb above it.

Sometimes, you actually win by turning the other cheek.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:03 PM

I disagree, Jeri. My Ponderosa Pine is inherently good, as are the mountains I see behind it.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:52 PM

"I'd like to believe that there is a God - Surely 'He' could make it easier?"


Of *course* there is God! :-) xxx

But you'll excuse me for not calling 'Him' or 'Her' and I therefore apologise for the repetitiveness of 'God' in what follows, (which is purely my opinion by the way, reached through many years of ups and downs)

I'm not at all religious, for all that palava belongs to 'Mankind'.

God is not to be found in 'holy' books, nor inside the rules or regulations which lie within them. God is not in churches or mosques, nor in wars or politics. God is not in hatred, or rape or murder. God is not there to be used for 'control' or to pour guilt down upon innocent people. God is not there in riches and jewels. God is not there as our young people vomit up their souls night after night, in drunken stupors, trying to stagger through a world that has turned its back upon them and upon God, leaving them with such an aching 'emptiness' inside.

God is in the eyes of the Big Issue Seller though, and in the cry of a newborn baby, in a mother's first look. God is there at the moment that a Love so deep is created, God is there when finally peace becomes stronger than war. God is in Joe's tree and in every animal that climbs it, every cloud that rises above it, every raindrop which falls upon it, every sun that sets behind it.

God is the souls of the dying, as they take their final breath, bringing them peace. God is around all who have already passed on, those who are 'in the process' and those who are left behind. Even those who choose to think they may not believe. God is there in every struggle overcome and in those that sometimes overcome us. God is there when we feel so alone and God is there when we finally start to open our eyes.

God is to be found when we least expect to find anyone. Sometimes God simply comes to us from reaching out into a terrifying, all-encompassing, heart-stopping darkness, when suddenly you find yourself being held so damned strongly, by hands you never even knew existed.

All you have to do, is invite God in, then watch the eyes and souls of those you begin to touch.

For God is catching! :-)

And right now, we need God more than we have ever done before, to bring back compassion, kindness, empathy, wisdom and understanding, because for way too long now so many of us have shut all thought of God out.

God is no colour, nor race, nor sex, nor name. God simply 'is' and why should God make things easier? That part, my friend, God leaves entirely up to us to do.


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr.

God Matters - We have been silent too long.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:53 PM

And, just to sum up the real deal behind all this, please remember:

God is a verb

A

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Slag
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:58 PM

"...", and you may quote me.

Joe! You are worshipping a tree now? Well, Ok! As you are peering off into the West, that's me over there on Cow Mountain, about 1/3 the way up waving at you! Worship the Creator, not the creation! Cheers! God bless.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Peace
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:06 PM

"Surely 'He' could make it easier???"

Ed, would you explain "it", please?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: John Hardly
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:12 PM

I just logged onto an internet forum I hadn't visited in quite some time. I'd even forgotten my password. Anyway, I couldn't help but notice that it gave the option to stay logged on for anywhere (anywhen?) from 6 hours, up to (and I quote), "forever".

Cool.

So, you know, for me clicking "forever" was just an unexpected change of future address. For agnostics, though, it would be totally mind-blowing.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: john f weldon
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:19 PM

The concept of God is not merely wrong, it is despicable. God does not exist, but if he did, it would be necessary to destroy him.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Peace
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:23 PM

"God does not exist, but if he did, it would be necessary to destroy him."

And the converse is . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:31 PM

Converse

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:34 PM

john - The despicable and vicious "God" that you would wish to see destroyed is simply the bizarre version of "God" that you have made up in your own imagination...based on your impression of whatever the heck kind of weird, twisted thing it is that you have convinced yourself that somebody else out there is imagining.

As such, you're tied to your subjective version of someone else's hypothetical fantasy life and are imagining that it is all there is to be said about the matter. You're reacting to a mental boogeyman that you yourself created out of thin air. That makes you at about the same level as the people you're so upset about....a fanatic who is complaining about another fanatic's fanaticism.

If someone hadn't bit you on the arse in some manner connected with religion at some time in the past I doubt you'd be worrying about it now the way you are.

WHAT concept of God?

Hell, there must be 100,000 different concepts of God out there. Most of them have probably never even crossed your mind.