Tech: Free Software Selections

Subject: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 07:11 AM

For the gadgeteers – and others.

We have a number of people who like exploring anything that's free. This list, from PC Magazine, suggests several "old standards" and perhaps some that may not be familiar. For those, like me, who take a fairly conservative attitude toward "exessive extras," these offer the possible advantage of being recommended by people who are - at least in name and payroll - fairly professional users. (?)

The Best Free Software

ARTICLE DATE: 02.08.08
By Eric Griffith and PC Magazine Staff

"We did the math: If you bought popular apps instead of trying their gratis counter-parts, at the manufacturers' list prices you'd be out $5,183 and change! Why spend money when you can get what you need for nothing? Sometimes, you do get what you don't pay for."

"Best" is a matter of opinion, but this list includes quite a few things that may be of interest to our "gadget infatuated" members. There are even some things that might be useful for real people, and possibly some "more modern" alternatives to some of the utilities that a few people have been complaining about. …

The link is to the opening page, The Best Free Software Hall of Fame where you'll find things like Adobe Reader and other "standards."

There is a Table of Contents in the left margin of each web page, with links, if any of the following ones don't work (I refuse to preview and check all of them). They claim 175 freebies but they're split up on 17 separate web pages (next button at the bottom of each page, or use the TOC). Some probably will be familiar, but there may be some new ones.

You can use the "print" button at the bottom of any page to get a "printable" copy of the whole 17 pages in one shot, and if you copy and then Edit|Paste Special|Formated Text in Word there's not too much trash to be reasonably readable, and links to the free stuff should be intact in the Word copy so you can click to what you're interested in directly from Word, without going through all 17 web pages. The pasted copy probably will NOT KEEP live links to the reviews that have appeared in the magazine for some of these items, so you'll need to go to the web page if you're interested what they've said about them in reviews.

Other categories:

Operating Systems

Antivirus/Anti-Malware

Firewalls & Security

Finance & Office

Calendar/PIMs

Backup/Sync & App Launchers

Utilities

Downloads & Interface Enhancement

File View/Conversion & Networking

Blogging, RSS Readers, & Instant Messaging

Communication & Audio

Video

Graphics

Browsers & Browser Add-Ons

Games/Fun

and a slightly deviant:

Free (Okay, Cheap) Hardware

Have fun.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 07:15 AM

Thanks for the info, John - as always. Great stuff (except that I really ought to be doing some work...)

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 07:24 AM

Thanks for pointing that one out. Among other things it's got some good advice on free anti-virus software. As one who's sick to detah of being ripped off by Norton, I'll be looking to change once my present subscription expires.

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Grab
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 08:16 AM

Thanks for the links, John.

Incidentally, I notice the absence from those lists of the old standby programs: Audacity, Gimp and OpenOffice. The first two sadly fall into the category of "what monkey thought that UI was a good idea?!" - they do the job, but they'll do your head in. And OpenOffice works *mostly*, but has some flaws in compatibility with MS which limits its usefulness.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Newport Boy
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 08:30 AM

Thanks, John - a good reference.

One personal favourite of mine is Microsoft's free Powertoy, SyncToy. It's a superb file backup programme. Developed originally for use with digital photo files, it is excellent for files which may be used on more than one computer.

I'm still using v1.4 - the v2 in the list is a beta, but should be reliable.

Phil

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 12:15 PM

Interesting list, and includes some old favorites, but leaves out a lot and has some strange categories. It also seems to promote 'online' programs where you don't actually own a copy.

(for example, in the 'graphics' category, I can barely believe they left out the various free programs offered by FastStone)

To supplement those ideas by PC Mag, I suggest this list, maintained by volunteers who frequent the alt.comp.freeware newsgroup.

Pricelessware

Here is an explanation

From these pages, you can also access lists of programs for several years back which were mentioned as good by folks, but weren't voted
'best in class'.

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 03:20 PM

Grab, I noticed that the programs you mention are on their Hall of Fame list.

Do you have a sound editor you like better than Audacity?

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 03:50 PM

Grab - Audacity, Gimp and OpenOffice are all on the Hall of Fame page!

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 04:13 PM

I've gotten a lot of my freeware programs via recommendations from Bill D; did they think to consult him? ;-D

Under Utilities, I love FileZilla. I've successfully used that for a couple of years now. I don't know much about the RSS programs, but this is a good start, because whatever it was that Earthlink was providing was eliminated (probably because there are so many good free ones. . . )

Eudora stopped being run by Qualcomm, handing it over to Firefox. I looked last week for updates, and none were listed, but supposedly one is in the works that will be substituted for the Thunderbird software. I use both programs, so don't have a problem with it, but I wonder--does anyone use one program to manage several email addresses and IDs, and how well does it work for you? Can you switch accounts and have your incoming mail stay there and go back out under the correct account, or is it all lumped together? (I tried setting Pegasus up to handle a couple of accounts some years back and it was not successful.)

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:09 PM

Can't say I've a problem with the Audacity UI and the program has met all my needs.

The Gimp again meets all my needs but I must admit I haven't found their interface over intuitive though I wouldn't want to spend money on something else for that reason. An article on the Gimp's interface here

As for OpenOffice, I think the biggest weakness is Base. It's IMO a long way off being like Access. It's not much of an issue to me as I can knock up something in say php/mySQL reasonably easily but it might be a gap for some.

As far as document formats go, I'm a believer in open standards.

SRS, I stopped using Thunderbird a couple of weeks ago because of IDs and accounts. I can't remember exactly what my problem was but when I changed the way my own email works (my accounts are pop3 - I'm now pulling it in using fetchmail and using an IMAP server - a bit better for having my laptop and desktop email in sync) and I couldn't set Thunderbird up as I wanted. I'm a bit undecided at the moment but evolution will probably win.

---
The best free software of course is Linux.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:31 PM

here's a link for the Windows beta of evolution. Not sure what it will be like.

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:41 PM

SRS...Pegasus is the one I'd have suggested. I had it once configured to access several different email addresses, including one that required a different protocol..(involved relaying a web mail address to my home POP3 mail box, and filing stuff in a different folder under a different profile. I no longer use that, and it's been several years)
I personally still use the last Eudora issued under Qualcom, and it serves me fine. Perhaps I am prejudiced because my mother's name was Eudora!

I have used FileZilla for several years, and when my wife decided to do a web page for us, she tried it, and mentioned the other day what a fine program it is!

I do know that I 'could' use Agent newsreader to handle email, and that it is well-designed to deal with multiple identities...but it is not free. (I allow it to 'check' my main mail profile, but do not send from there.)

(no - PC Mag never seems to ask my opinion...*grin*)

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:51 PM

Jon...as a matter of fact, I recently downloaded and created a bootable CD and a DVD of Knoppix version of Linux, to begin getting the 'feel' of the system.
I am impressed with a lot of stuff, but am having to wade slowly and haltingly thru their file system. They just don't bother to name stuff in easily discernable ways. It took me 3 tries to even find how to access the files on my Windows C: drive! And the desktop is ...ummm... 'different'. I suppose that regular use will/would get me past that, but there is much to be done making Linux easily navigable by newbies.

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 07:23 PM

Bill, I guess a sort of "conversion" booklet could be useful.

Re the drives: I prefer the Linux system where the drives/partitions names don;t really come into play in "normal" use. The Windows way of having something say located at D:\myfiles and then have the system get itself confused because you've changed things round and Drive D has become drive E is stupid and inflexible. Much better at a lower level to be able to say I will mount my drive D (perhaps /dev/sdb on Linux) as /myfiles and when the hardware changes, just change the mount points. Of course it does take a bit of getting used to though...

Possibly 2 of the most useful directories for someone using a system at first are /home, ie. the users personal directories and /etc where the system configuration files are. There are differences between Linux distributions but most of the directory structure and what goes where is reasonably consistent.

You can't really have a Linux desktop as such as users make different choices. The "heavyweights" are KDE (which of hand, I think Knoppix uses) and Gnome (Ubuntu uses this) then there are others such as XFCE. Additionally, different distributions may "customise" these desktops a little.

My own choice is KDE on OpenSuse (live CD here. I also like the Yast configuration tools with this one. Personally, I find it makes things much easier for me than using the distributions such as Ubuntu which are often touted as the just run/easiest versions but it's horses for courses...

One thing I do think... You can spend a LOT of time trying different distributions and software packages in the process of finding out what suits you the best!

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 07:36 PM

Before I click on it, is the "live CD" you mention, is that the way that you can take Linux for a spin without installing it? I always meant to take a look at it but lost track of the link. (Do you burn a CD and boot with it, or is it a demo at that link?)

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 07:42 PM

You burn a CD and boot with it. Once loaded, you can choose to install from it (I think there is a link on the desktop) but you don't have to.

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Bert
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 07:57 PM

...but there is much to be done making Linux easily navigable by newbies...

Hey Linux gives you a command line. You can do what you want. What more do you need?

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 08:22 PM

SRS..you download the ISO...then you burn the ISO to a CD as an image. It is important to find that option in Nero...or whatever you use to burn.
Then, you put the burned CD in and restart and it 'should' boot into Linux.

here is the link for Knoppix, which I got.


and for the DVD just in case..*grin* (they have a HUGE amount of files on the DVD)

I may just try the KDE OpenSuse Jon mentions...just to see.

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 08:24 PM

and Bert...I hate 'command line'! I am new to all this, and programmed to see GUIs. (Dick Greenhaus keeps trying to tell me how easy DOS is.....HA!)

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Bert
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 08:29 PM

Ha Bill. It isn't a computer if it hasn't got a command line.

How the F**k else are you supposed to tell it what to do.

Take the time to learn shell programming and your computer will take on a whole new life.

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 08:34 PM

I doubt I shall ever totally give up Windows, as I have come to depend on some odd little programs and versions of programs which do some things specifically as I like. Linux may do everything any reasonable person ever needs....but I never claimed to be reasonable.

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 08:39 PM

Oh, Bert! I suppose mine HAS a command line trick buried in it somewhere. I just don't relate to lots of /,,,| chng dir: a cld WTF code. My good wife does DOS in her sleep..(or used to...she WROTE code 35 years ago)...but not me.

Now, *I* am the local guru for getting by in the GUI universe.

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Nick
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 08:41 PM

>>Do you have a sound editor you like better than Audacity?

I like Audacity for some things but think Reaper is far superior for multitrack recording. Non crippled shareware rather than freeware so depends on your conscience

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 08:48 PM

Wow...Reaper is obviously serious software....but for me, it's like a Lunar Lander when I wanted a bike!

I may experiment with it sometime, but I have not needed anything beyond Audacity..yet.

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Bert
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 08:56 PM

Chacun à son goût Bill.

Problem with Unix is that it was written by idiots who believed in the premise of 'contrived guruism'. Once you get over that, you can go in and alias anything you like, to make it more intelligable to real people (real people meaning YOU).

The real benefit is that the operating system has its own built in real programming language (actually two or three languages). That -(coupled with the alias file) allows you to make it whatever you want.

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 09:00 PM

Take the time to learn shell programming and your computer will take on a whole new life.

That's something I must take a proper look at some time. Last couple of scripts I needed on this PC - I used perl - something I guess is pretty much a "standard feature" on many linux distributions - must learn a bit more about that too, and python...

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Nick
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 09:13 PM

Bill

Reaper is a wonderful bit of software. I use Audacity for all sorts of strightforward bits on the computer when I need to edit bits of sound but use Reaper if I want to record something more complex including using a midi keyboard to play along etc and the potential to use a load of effects and plugins

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Bert
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 09:26 PM

'perl' is great for simple stuff and it''s perfect for optimised searches. But after using it for a while you will eventually find the need to resort to a REAL programming language.

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 08:14 PM

I've found Wavepad to be pretty useful. It's more intuitive than Audacity and there is a freeware version (which is what I use).

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 08:24 PM

Sorry; forgot to include the link for Wavepad. Here 'tis:
http://nch.com.au/wavepad/index.html

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 09:27 PM

I used to know a lot of DOS at one time. I don't particularly miss it until I need to make something work right. You call the techies at some company and they take you in the back way and have you do DOS commands--a whiff of the old system comes back for a few minutes.

Anyone else write their own batch files? ;-D

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: momnopp
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 10:05 PM

Anyone weigh in with their favorite Web authoring tool?

I have used Nvu but I understand Komposer is 'better'. Mozilla? Anyone had good results with taking over a site that someone built using Dreamweaver (and convoluted code) and managing it well with an Open Source application?

I'm trying to save my condo association the cost of purchasing Dreamweaver, but maybe it's worth the couple hundred bucks in saved aggravation fee (although it's no guarantee there will really be less aggravation, maybe just different aggravation...)

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 10:22 PM

Anyone weigh in with their favorite Web authoring tool?

Eclipse

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 06:38 AM

"favourite Web authoring tool"

EditPlus - http://www.editplus.com

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 12:47 PM

Command line functions have been very useful, in fact essential, in Windows. The ability to run all Control Panel functions from command line "scripts" is what allows a system administrator to download, install, and edit programs consistently without having to "visit" each individual computer. This has been "greatly improved" in Vista(?).

Quoting from O'Reilly:

"The bad news is that under the hood, the Control Panel is something of a mess. It's made up of a collection of category pages and applets that have accumulated through various versions of Windows. As you'll see shortly, in "Command-line usage," in some cases you can run an applet directly from the command line by typing the name of the applet itself. In other cases you can run an applet by typing in Control and then a keyword, such as telephony. And in yet other cases you can't run an applet from the command line at all.

"Making matters more confusing is that in some instances, running an applet from the command line leads to a traditional dialog box (such as main.cpl for the Mouse Properties dialog box), but in other instances it leads to a subcategory that is actually a folder along the Control Panel bread crumb¹ path (such as powercfg.cpl, which leads to the folder/subcategory (Control Panel | Hardware and Sound | Power Options). The upshot? Like it or not, it may he easier to use the Control Panel itself rather than the command line for running applets.

"Note that you cannot launch all applets from the command line; see the upcoming "Notes" section for a workaround. Control.exe supports two command-line methods (see "Usage," at the beginning of this section). but no method covers all applets."

¹ "bread crumbs" is a new "feature" in Vista. There is NO DEFINITION of what a "bread crumb" is, anywhere in Vista help, although multiple places tell you it's "new," it's "helpful," it's "useful," and that you are supposed to be "impressed." For those who may not have figured it out, the "bread crumb path" is the familiar files/folders Path, e.g. "C:\Programs\This Program\This File" etc, except that the "\" has been replaced by an "arrow" to divide the "steps" along the path. HOW CAN WE NOT BE IMPRESSED!?

[For some reason, with the fonts used by O'Reilly, when I scan a page and run it through my OCR, "Control," when adjacent to "Panel," is interpreted as "nut rot" in almost all instances. I wonder how O'Reilly managed to make it do that(?).]

But the command line can be exceedingly useful in Windows, for many things that can't be done as easily by any other methods. If you don't need it, that's fine; but if you really want the best out of the programs you have it's often very helpful.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 04:48 PM

re: Web authoring tools.
Nvu was discontinued. Kompozer is a revision built on the same basic code. I gather some folks got permission to take over the project and decided they could improve the old Nvu, but wanted their own name. Komposer does get good reviews.

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 07:16 PM

I forget what I started out using on my own website (http://jeremiah.ca), but switched to Mozilla Composer at one point. The calendar page files were around 300K - a far improvement from Microsoft Front Page with its overly complex and extraneous code. Then a friend passed on a slightly older version of Dreamweaver. In very short order, those 300K pages were less than 100K in size. (I'm very sensitive to 'loadtimes', being on a fairly slow dialup connection myself.)

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 09:15 PM

There seems to be quite a bit of interest here in website design.

I get lots of "news notices" about what's going on with the web and with website design; but not having a website, it's a little tough to tell what's really significant.

From recent "news" I've received:

A List Apart Magazine: Articles may be of interest. This is "a magazine for web developers," and from what I can tell as an "outsider" not involved with web design it has some pretty good stuff up.

Of particular interest – maybe – an article at List Apart that was recently cited by "someone else" – down about a page at the above link – is at:

Beyond DOCTYPE: Web Standards, Forward Compatibility, and IE8, by Aaron Gustafson, January 21, 2008

I found this last article helpful in thinking I've figuring out some of what's going on with the web, and why some of it is so thoroughly messed up. Maybe some of you who design websites will find something there too.


Microsoft is currently distributing the "final beta" of Internet Explorer 8. This "final beta" is apparently significantly different from the previous "final beta" IE8, and website designers may find something interesting in the babble that's now out:

Microsoft rolls out test of Internet Explorer 8 This is essentially an independent (MSNBC??) news report about some of the "features" of the coming(?) IE8.

Compatibility and IE8. This is a Microsoft "Developer Net" blog about IE8, by a "leader" at Microsoft.

The "promise" is that IE8 will have a default mode that is "fully standards compliant." That won't eliminate the few million users of earlier deviant versions, but may be of interest.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 02:30 AM

"run it through my OCR, "Control," when adjacent to "Panel," is interpreted as "nut rot""

It's Windoze, John. 'Nut Rot Panel' makes sense to me... :-)

I suggest performing it TTO "Nut Bush City Limits" :-P


"IE8 will have a default mode that is "fully standards compliant." "

ROFLMAO... Oh stop it John - I've got tears in my eyes... it's not April 1 yet, is it?

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 04:01 AM

Foolestroupe -

Check out that blog that I linked to up above. The "double-speak" there is apparently a transition language to help people learn the new "kiddy speak" that's required to run Vista.

They never once mention that they just got the bill for:

EU fines Microsoft record $1.3 billion

for not being standards compliant????

Nah. They're just doing it to help everybody out.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 05:37 AM

It's nice to think MS might be doing a bit more to work to standards, John. As far as I understand it, they have been one of the worst, trying to come up with (non standards) ways to ensure web sites only work with IE...

It can be interesting trying sites out in the w3c validator and looking at the errors that turn up. Even many big (eg. BBC) sites that you would think would pass fail it though perhaps they have reasons(???) - I guess others either don't give a sh*t or are not aware of standards existing.

Sometimes I do wonder how the web works as well as it does...

---
For better or worse I am one of the ones who does try to validate everything* with the w3c tool but I seem to be in a minority and it doesn't strike me that people care that someone might actually be bothered enough to take that little bit of extra time to run the pages through the checker and fix anything that turns up.

* I do have a problem with user input on a dynamic site. I can fix some things, eg. standardise a url with a pair double quotes just in case they are needed or ensure & is & in contexts where & is illegal but I can't do a lot of parsing/"correcting" on the html input I allow...

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 05:39 AM

( & is <)

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 07:52 AM

Oh JiK,

My sides still hurt - so now MS is going to put out a product that is NOT ass-backwards compatible with their previous crap?


hahahahahhaha!

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Grab
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 09:43 AM

Hmm, so they are! I was looking on the "categories" sections underneath, but they weren't in there. Doh!

Audacity isn't set up for multi-track recording, which is one problem. It's a bit of a disk-hog, which is another problem. You can't use VST effects with it - or rather, you can use the effects but you can't control them because Audacity doesn't support interfaces for VSTs, so all you get control-wise are a bunch of sliders with meaningless default names. And AFAIK you can't do on-the-fly modifications to the sound while a track is playing - Audacity seems to only be set up to do off-line modifications, which isn't very helpful when you're trying to tweak your reverb or EQ settings.

I started using Mixcraft for multitrack stuff a little while back. It's extremely user-friendly, but it's a bit lacking on features at the moment - no facility for multiple sends to an effect or for bussing, both of which are essential for me. I need to try out some others which are a bit more fully-featured - Reaper is one to try, n-Track Studio is another. If you want something simple, I'd recommend Mixcraft over Audacity, although clearly Audacity has the advantage of being free.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 02:52 PM

Linux weakness

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 03:02 PM

Just spent an hr or more looking at VST. The Steinberg licence doesn't seem to make things as easy as they could be for open source and I (on Linux) had to download their SDK before I was able to compile the Audacity VST enabler. Now the references I see for using VST plugins point to using wine (to run Win programs on Linux). I give up...

On Linux, Audacity will work with LADSPA and I seem to have quite a range of (I think reasonably named) plugins to chose from. They don't offer the on the fly editing you mention Audicity lacks though.

I guess if I was looking for something more advanced, I'd try Ardour (OSX and Linux but no Win).

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 03:06 PM

I love it, Bill.

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 04:01 PM

I think I know this guy

Subject: RE: Tech: Free Software Selections
From: Beer
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 05:40 PM

Thanks John,
Beer (adrien)