BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 02:36 PM

I can't imagine anything more likely to break up the United Kingdom than trying to make people swear loyalty to it. So I suppose I should be in favour of the attempt...

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 07:44 AM

I think the problem may be the queen, lord goldsmith and what they stand for. Could be wrong though.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 04:42 AM

I can't see the fuss myself. I've been a republican for as long as I can remember, but had no difficulty in attesting when, if I remember rightly, I declared that I would obey and defend her Maj, her heirs and successors (small ray of hope for republicans there!) and the officers appointed over me. Is the problem with the wording or with the concept that with rights come responsibilities?

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 06:01 PM

"We hereby swear to uphold the values of William Wilberforce. We swear to continue his work, to bring honour, truth and integrity back to this land and to guard against, and speak out about, injustice, wherever it may be happening in this world.

We swear to bring about the return of compassion and gentleness. We swear to ensure that all young people will have free University education, decent jobs at the end of it, instead of debts, homes they can afford to buy and families who have time for one another again. We swear to get our young people off drugs and drink by showing them that they live in a country where they are cared about, supported and loved.

We swear to rid this country of every lily-livered, lying, twisted, money-grabbing, self-centred, selfish, dictatorial politician. We swear to rid this country of every member of the royal family who does not pay their own way and who has no compassion for 'their people'.

And we swear, William, to make Lord G*ldsmith understand these words of yours, that it is important that we "continually find it necessary to guard against that natural love of wealth and grandeur which prompts us always, when we come to apply our general doctrine to our own case, to claim an exception."

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:35 PM

"If thou must swear, swear by thy precious self, which is the god of my idolatry."

Anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:14 PM

I'm English, and I wouldn't swear allegiance to the British flag or the country because what that means, in fact, is that I'd be swearing allegiance to whoever is in power!

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 04:55 PM

Just got an email from the 'Republic' group urging me to join, which I will. This must be the best thing ever for their recruiting drive. It'll be more than faith she'll have to defend soon - it'll be the monarchy itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Slag
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 04:54 PM

"But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the Earth; for it is His footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black." Matthew 5:34-36

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 03:28 PM

True. The music credits are normally the last, so I generally sit tight until the whole film is finished. The credit music is sometimes worth listening to anyway. What's the rush? The credits are part of the film we've paid to see.

Actually I suspect the rush is just a carry over from when The Queen was always played - maybe the punters think it still is...

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 03:20 PM

There would still be one or two folkies waiting in the dark to see if the credits will mention who was playing that tune written ca. 1810, on an 1880s' style flute, in a scene set in 1772 ...

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 03:08 PM

The irony about "Fidei Defensor" is that it was a title given to Henry VIII by the Pope, for putting his name to a book attacking heretics.

People did indeed rush to get out of the cinema before God Save the Queen. But if they didn't make it they would generally freeze where they were till it was done. These days, of course, the end credits on most films are so long that the cinema has virtually emptied before they have finished, so it wouldn't make much difference if they did play the National Anthem then, or anything in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:16 PM

Ind Imp = Indium Imperator (Imperatrix) - Emperor (Empress) of India.

It isn't found on LSD coins after 1948, when India gained Independence. Georgie 6 was the last one.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:54 AM

'I think it is high time, we bought back the times when we stood to attention at the end of every show/match/film etc and listen to the National Anthem.'

What I remember about those days, in the cinemas, was a sort've mad, frantic stampede at the end of the film to get out before GStQ started!

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:46 AM

Old half- crowns used to have DG OMN BRIT REX FID DEF IND IMP round the king's head (usually Georges, occasionally Edward or even Victoria- when it was REG instead of REX if you could read it).

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:30 AM

The Loyal Toast in the Red Rose County is and has always been

"The Queen (King), Duke of Lancaster".

(Palatinate Jurisdiction of John o'Gaunt - the King's son, not the Morris side).

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:12 AM

From Wikipedia...

'In her capacity as queen of the United Kingdom, Elizabeth II is styled, "Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith".

The title, "Defender of the Faith", reflects her position as the Supreme Governor of the Church of England and she is thus formally superior to the Archbishop of Canterbury.

The original Latin phrase - Fidei Defensor - is referred to on all current British coins by the abbreviations, F D or FID DEF. This reference was first added to British coins in 1714, during the reign of King George I. The decision of the Royal Mint to omit reference to the phrase (and other parts of the monarch's style) from the Florin (a pre-decimal British coin) in 1849, caused such a scandal that the coin was replaced.

In most Commonwealth Realms the phrase does not appear in the Monarch's full style, while maintaining the initial By the Grace of God'

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:07 AM

Where "Defender of the Faith" and "Duke of Lancaster" come in are under the following circumstances:

The full flowery version - "Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith".

"Defender of the Faith" if used is only used in UK, Canada and New Zealand

The Queen also has other titles by which she is known in different parts of Britain:
- In the Isle of Man, she is Lord of Man;
- In the Channel Islands, she is Duke of Normandy;
- In the land of the Duchy of Lancaster, she is Duke of Lancaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:57 AM

Sorry - No Defender of the Faith - No Duke of Lancaster

Since before her Coronation the following was agreed:

Following the Queen's accession, a decision was reached by Commonwealth Prime Ministers at the Commonwealth Conference of 1953, whereby the Queen would be accorded different styles and titles in each of her Realms, reflecting that in each state she acts as the monarch of that state, regardless of her other roles.

Traditionally, Elizabeth II's titles as Queen Regnant are listed by the order in which the remaining original Realms first became Dominions of the Crown:
- The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (original dominion);
- Canada (1867);
- Australia (1901);
- New Zealand (1907);

followed by the order in which the former Crown colony became an independent Realm:
- Jamaica (1962);
- Barbados (1966);
- Bahamas (1973);
- Grenada (1974);
- Papua New Guinea (1975);
- The Solomon Islands (1978);
- Tuvalu (1978);
- Saint Lucia (1979);
- Saint Vincent and the Grenadines (1979);
- Antigua and Barbuda (1981);
- Belize (1981);
- Saint Kitts and Nevis (1983).

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:05 AM

I'll look it up but I think it starts "The Duke of Lancaster, Her majesty the Queen......"

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 09:54 AM

Teribus - you forgot 'Queen, Defender of the Faith'.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 09:39 AM

The Official Title of the Queen

'Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 08:38 AM

I'm fairly sure that Her fist title is the "Duke of Lancaster" and "Queen of England" comes second.
Just thought we'd get the priorities correct:)

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: eddie1
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 07:34 AM

Does anyone remember the good old days when the main form of exercise was rushing out of the cinema during the end credits of the film before they played "God Save The Queen!"?

I don't get so much exercise nowadays but I might if they tried to get me to swear an oath of thingy!

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 07:03 AM

I was going to refer to the cartoon in today's "Times" but a certain Thatcher-fancier beat me to it.

My son-in-law is a Mick. I can just see and hear him persuading the grandbrats to swear allegiance to Our Sovereign Lady, Elizabeth, or her successor (?)HRH the Wingnut, Heir Apparent !

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 06:55 AM

Always comes down to the same thing, find everybody jobs and they'll be happy enough and get on well together.

England is founded on pragmatism rather than idealism. And strangely enough, we are idealistic about the freedoms that taking the pragmatic view involves.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 06:38 AM

Wesley S, no. British kids do not have to make any kind of pledge like US school kids.
As Gurney said, recruits to our military do.
As everyone says, making such a pledge would be very un British.
The government is desperate to heal the divide between England and Scotland, and to integrate our immigrants.
They must be bankrupt of ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Stu
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:16 AM

The American Pledge of Allegiance has always puzzled me - I suspect it illustrates a fundamental dichotomy between the people of the US and the people of the Isles.

Do Native Americans have tp pledge allegiance to a flag that represents the horrors visited upon them by people carrying it?

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:09 AM

This I think is about the stamp of it:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/cartoon/

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:06 AM

A Leveller, swearing allegiance to a monarch - you must be joking!

I think fondly back to 27 January 1649 when the monarch was found guilty of treason against the people of England.

A suggestion as stupid as this could only have come from a 'lord'.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 04:16 AM

Wesley raises a nagging question in what's left of my mind: what happens if an American child doesn't make the pledge of allegiance?
I think we should be told.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:33 AM

Well, I did that thing, long ago. When I joined the army, it was a requirement, and I swore and signed an oath of allegiance to the Queen as head of the armed forces. It never caused me any loss of sleep. Nor did the fact that I lost the right to vote, being a soldier.
Later on I embraced republican ideas (that's English, not American, republican) But there is a lot to be admired about a benevolent monarchy. You don't get daft presidents, for one thing.

I would swear an oath of support to a country, but not to a head of state, now.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Greg B
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:18 PM

Why anybody would promise allegiance to Freddy Mercury, I do not know.

He had an incredible voice, was a great arranger, but he's dead, man.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 09:29 PM

I have no problem with an oath of allegiance to a nation, but I would slit my own throat before I'd swear an oath to a person.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 08:36 PM

...former Attorney General Lord Goldsmith The man who made a U turn, and gave a legal fig leaf to the British Government to cover the war on Iraq (in the teeth of virtually all legal experts who said it was plainly illegal). And later called a halt to prosecutions against a British arms company for secretly paying £1bn to Saudi prince as a bribe.

Just the man to consult about what kind of "British values" are seen as worth encouraging...

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 08:17 PM

Wesley - on the subject of what to call 'the Queen', we can usually manage with 'the Queen'. I should be able to call her 'cousin', 'cos my grandma's maiden name was Windsor. But we've had that name a lot longer than her family has!

For those few people who don't have her someway involved as 'Head of State' you could call her "Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith", or you could call her Mrs Mountbatten (the name that her husband changed his to (he must have been getting writer's cramp writing Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg). By another of those strange anachronisms that we seem to do so well, you could call her Duke of Lancaster (yes she's a female Duke), Lord of Man (in the Isle of Man) or Duke of Normandy (in the Channel Isles).

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 06:35 PM

No, Magrath, Act of Union 1707 still in force.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 06:29 PM

You mean South Scotland, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 06:02 PM

We will get you back to England yet Les. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:47 PM

It ought to be Queen of Scots anyway rather than Queen of Scotland anyway - they only dropped that title with the Act of Union in 1707, and that doesn't apply any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: fat B****rd
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:46 PM

Keep your greedy paws off my subsidies, Les.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:42 PM

Well the way the Welsh and Scots get all the privelages that the English do not get, it might just as well be Queen of England. Then we can stop all subsidies to the above mentioned places.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: fat B****rd
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:22 PM

You'd think with the state of the UK that MP's would have better things to get steamed up about.
PS Lovely legs, Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:08 PM

No, Les, Bush is President of Florida, where his brother was Reichsfuehrer.

CC

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:04 PM

Well, there's some history to calling the British Monarch "King/Queen of England"; they've ruled over England dating back to the days before the UK (before the K was U).

The office of President of the US, on the other hand, was never attached to any single state, New York or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 05:04 PM

What should she be called? And be nice....

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 04:55 PM

Why do you lot keep calling her 'the Queen of England'? It's a bit like saying Bush is President of New York!

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 04:54 PM

I'd say Freddie Mercury probably did swear at lesions ...

... and he remained loyal to queen till the very end ...

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 04:39 PM

I will neither bow nor curtsy to the Queen of England. As an American citizen I don't gotta. Instead I would make a slight nod, grab her hand, and while shaking it ask, "So, how's it hangin', Queenie?"

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: PeadarOfPortsmouth
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 03:55 PM

I was a guest at my first Robbie Burns Night this year and I couldn't help but notice a glaring contradiction:

All night, the speakers would make jokes about "aye, be on guard, for there may be an Englishman about"...and yet they toasted the Queen.

Of course, I joked that my mum's family is Irish and there was never any ambiguity about where the Queen stood when I was growing up. ;-)

(Then again, my dad's family is English and he used to playfully taunt my grandparents that he was the "fruit of Cromwell's loins." It's good to laugh.)

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Swearing an oath to the Queen
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 03:42 PM

I know this has been proposed - but what's the chance it will actually become law? And how would it be inforced?