BS: Shannon found- alive!

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:30 PM

Now where I did hear people described as 'human rats' before?

Oh yes........ I remember

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:26 PM

You know there are families who will never work and produce second generation scroungers. Of course. Typically people with a lot of money who avoid paying taxes by employing crooked accountants to work out clever ways of cheating.

They aren't the only ones - but sorting out the rich cheats should be the priority. That;s where the big money is being stolen.

I take it "Guest, Guest" is not the same as "Guest, guest".

Have you seen that vigilante man?
Have you seen that vigilante man?
Have you seen that vigilante man?
I been hearin' his name all over the land.

Nasty people, vigilantes...

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:01 PM

Emma, at least they worked to earn it. McG, stop splitting hairs. You know there are families who will never work and produce second generation scroungers.

All they are is human rats. Anyway I have made it my business on more than one occasion to telephone the Social Security office to inform them of someone either making a false claim for incapacity benefit, living with a partner while claiming single parent housing benefit or working and claiming unemployment benefit.

I have a contact I keep in touch with who has informed me of several successful prosecutions or suspension of benefits of those I reported.

It's your duty man.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:41 PM

a wealth of benefits - now that's a phrase to ponder on.

The benefit system at times is so complicated that the only way to avoid desperate poverty traps can be to bend the rules. For example if someone on benefit gets a few days work and informs the benefit agency of this the result can be that, when the temporary work is gone, they may have to wait for many weeks before benefits are restored. The effect is to push people into fiddling the system, or to discourage them from making any effort to get back into working. Either way they are liable to be seen as scroungers.

This is thread drift - but clearly there is an appalling lack of knowledge about how the system actually works on the part of some people.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:15 PM

Tax evasion illegal, tax avoidance, legal.

G

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:09 PM

'Tax avoidance by UK's super-rich 'worth £13bn'

'Tax avoidance by the super-rich costs the British taxpayer £13bn a year - enough money to increase old-age pensions by 20 per cent.'

The Observer, Sunday January 27 2008

Some reports put it higher....

'HMRC say tax avoidance could be costing every household more than £1,500 a year
In a document published late on budget day with no publicity, HMRC has said that the cost of tax avoidance in the UK could run as high as £40 billion a year. This tax avoidance could cost every household in the UK more than £1,500.

The HMRC admission, contained in the report 'Measuring the tax gap - an update', estimates that in 2005 tax avoidance was between £10b and £40b. This figure is even higher than the £25 billion a year estimated by the TUC in it's 'Missing Billions' report'

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:50 PM

Social security fraud costs the UK taxpayer up to £4 billion a year.
The level of fraud is unacceptably high and something must be done to weed out fraudulent housing benefit claims.

£4 billion is much too high but that is only 3% of what is given to people in social benefits.I believe fraud is theft of money which many people who are sick and disabled really need.

Do you know you can get housing benefit without a national insurance number ?

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:31 PM

Get your head out of the clouds Richard. Are you saying it is fine to steal money from the government ? Listen benefit thief does go on and if anyone is in receipt of someone making false claims it is their moral right to report them.

Too many these days decide to opt out and enjoy a wealth of benefits including Housing benefit, Mobility car and Incapacity benefit when they are fit to work but choose not to.

Clearly we are people with differing values.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:07 PM

What's the matter Gigi, not getting any? It seems you can't count so if you can get anyone to screw you, better not use the rhythm method. Maybe you should try to bring up children on benefits before you call it the easy option.

Leveller, you are not using the expression "underclass" correctly. I don't mean the bottom rank of the working class. I don't mean those who are excluded from working by some or other part of the system. I mean those whose position and economy is anathema to the values of society.

I know a number. If they eat goose it is swan. They earn - here and there - by ducking and diving. Property is theft - or at least theirs is (save as far as those they know). By and large they do not claim benefits (some do) often because they have no fixed abode. Some are dealers, some informers. They eat by the longbow or crossbow. Arson is met with arson. They have no capitalist aspiration or puritan work ethic. They are not part of "society" as we know it. Some are my friends.

To borrow the words of Tom Robinson "I'm a middle class kiddy, but I knwo where I stand"

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:34 PM

Oh my God another guy with a blanket over his head concerning leeches.

Leveller (the self appointed saint of mudcat), Do you never ask yourself when are the politicians going to get a grip on our benefits system?

They have created this madness where people like these can have as many children as they like and not go out to work, and then claim – quite rightly – that they would be poorer if they did. This woman had even children to six different guys.

One solution would be to put a belt around their ankles.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:35 PM

Richard - Do you mean sexual repression or sexist oppression?

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:24 PM

I'm sorry, guest, I simply don't follow your argument. What embarrassing words do I explain away as expressions? Every post I make is an expression - of my beliefs. I love to 'cross swords' with people if they have intelligent, rational (sometimes even irrationa)and heartfelt opinions but you just talk shit; in which case, the best response is a metaphorical slap. As I once pointed out, my rhetorical skills were first honed in the dockland pubs of Hull and I still have the scars on my knuckles to prove it (Ah, happy days!).

Richard, I wouldn't assert that there is no truth save in an underclass but, then, I don't believe there is an underclass - merely a downtrodden class. Their faces may be in the gutter but a great many are looking up at the stars.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:33 PM

Gigi, I have had disagreements with many. Happily there are few with whom I have allegorically crossed swords. Mostly they fall into three categories: -

1. Horse definitioners
2. Inverted snobs
3. Fascist bastards (including those who apply the fasces to the cause of sexual repression)

The Leveller has a point of view, but I don't think he would assert that there is NO truth save in the underclass.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 12:10 PM

Oh come on Richard, if anyone has crossed swords here with these guys it's you.

I have always enjoy reading your comments, but this one is a little below par.

"The Leveller's comments are usually considered and rational"

Oh come on, he usually tries to explain away his embarrassing words as mere "expressions". your post comes across as pandering.

Yes there is a fleeting enthusiasm in some of his comments, but really who could agree with everything he says.

Yet he has his defenders do their best to ignore the facts of this case. The subject of the thread is the wonderful news that the child has been found alive, but personally I do not think she should be returned to the situation which I saw on television on Monday night.


Would I say The Levellers comments here are rational ?

Sorry no Richard, not in this case.

I agree MacGrath is consistent and on occasion he can be reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:51 AM

Thanks for your support, Richard. You opinions carry great gravitas.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:33 AM

The Leveller's comments are usually considered and rational, and well rooted, as his handle shows, in an ancient and necessary UK political tradition. When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?

MacGrath, however, is consistently one of the best informed and most constructive Mudcat posters.

Anyone who wants to produce an cheap sneer at the two together really does need to engage brain before putting mouth in gear.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:27 AM

I'm not a 'type', my anonymous friend. Nor is it up to me how other people live. If by 'do-gooder' you mean someone who, in the course of their job, tries to improve people's lives and help them fulfill their potential, then 'yes', my wife does that. You and Yorkie condemn people for the lives they are forced to lead, then condemn them for wanting to better themselves - you make me sick, you nasty crew. What have you ever done to help anyone except yourselves? I wonder from your ignorant comments if you even have the brains to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 09:07 AM

theleveller is clearly the type that allows children to live under such conditions as their "Do gooder" attitude shows. It makes me sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:49 AM

What has the family's position on the 'social scale', or their attitude to work, their appetite for alcohol, or the mother's appetite for sex got to do with anything?

The thread is about a child, repeat CHILD, who disappeared for three weeks, and was found alive and well, thank God.

The police and social services will get to the bottom of what happened to her and, hopefully, she will recover from the ordeal.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:13 AM

"What's a prig ?"

As I anticipated, your ignorance knows no limits.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Yorkie
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:59 AM

Thanks Emma. So why doesn't McGrath of Harlow use it as his handle ?

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:26 AM

Seems spot on in this case. There are other words which would fit as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:21 AM

Yorkie, The Penguin English Dictionary defines a prig as

'one who is sure of his moral superiority to others and quick to condemn them; conceited pedant'

Hope that helps.......

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Yorkie
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:19 AM

theleveller, maybe they could become classroom assistants and teach kids how to mix cider, Redbull and lager ? and maybe you could open both eyes and live in reality once in a while.

What's a prig ?

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:52 AM

"The media called the family "Working Class" well believe me, NONE of the family work, without exception. Unless you call living of Incapacity Benefit or Disability Living Allowance and scrounging of the Welfare State working"

Yorkie, your comments are grossly offensive. What do you know about the lives these people lead? My wife works amongst them, teaching parents who want to become classroom assistants, and there is a real desire for self-improvement and a pride in what they do. What these people need is a chance, not snide remarks from a smug, self-satisfied prig like you.

I suggest you read this.

ttp://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/03/19/shameless-to-sneer-at-shannon-s-family-89520-20355532/

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:45 PM

Unfair to dinosaurs!

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:33 PM

Emma B, may I agree with your view of the sexism in the use by idiots of the word "promiscuous".

Fionn - go somewhere else and try to reduce someone else to chattel status. Dinosaur!

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Yorkie
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 12:29 PM

While the relevant authorities are investigating the case maybe they could team up with the Social Security Benefits Branch and ask why this extended family are all work-shy. No one in the family have worked within the last decade and this poor child has witnessed daily day time drinking binges and in-house family brawling.

Social Services are dealing with a nightmare here.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 12:03 PM

I seem to recall that BB King has 15 children by 15 different women. Has he been called promiscious? No ? Hmmmmm........

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 11:55 AM

I understand very well that family cirumstances are important to the police in investigating any crime and in the court detirmining where care and welfare of children should best rest.

My 'complaint' is that the prurient style of interviewing of Ms. Matthews on Radio 4 was inappropiate in the circumstances and the prominence given to the fact that she has her children by 5 (FIVE! please get it right!) fathers and repeated (inaccurately again) in the second post here wholly disproportionate.

As to the question of promiscuity...

'In some cultures, the term is applied to any man or woman who has more than one lover at a given time. In some industrialized societies, it is likely used only, and derogatorily, in describing women who have many sexual partners' - defn from wiki

In fact there is no evidence that Ms Matthews was promiscuous in the first sense just that she had children by a series of relationships, personally I condemn the sexism inherent in the more derogatory usage of the word.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 11:28 AM

Charming post from henryetta. It'e easy to see how rumours take root, with that kind of mentality abroad.

The mother went on that radio programme specifically to deal with those issues on which she was challenged, and which had been widely thrown around in the print media. Emma B, with her experience, should know that family circumstance is highly relevant in all investigations into crimes against children. Nine times out of ten the answers are within the family. The McCanns, after all, are suspects in the disappearance of their daughter. (And as such they sail pretty close to the wind, circulating on their own initiative, and against police advice, descriptions of others they claim to be suspects.)

Kat: Shannon's mother, who is 32, has seven children by six guys. Even if that's the limit of her sexual adventures I regard that as promiscuity, though I know a lot of people don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 11:25 AM

The defendant is charged with two offences, unlawfully kidnapping the schoolgirl and imprisoning her against her will.

Isn't that enough?

Yes I would say it IS purient curiosity to question why the police should request just an additional 24 hours in order to obtain the evidence they would need from a young girl described frequently as 'timid' and questions are being allowed to occupy only two hours a day.

As Sir Norman Bettison, the chief constable of West Yorkshire Police has stated
"Talking to a nine-year-old isn't a question of sitting them down with a pen and piece of paper and getting that information,"

'Shannon's story, which is slowly unfolding over several days of specialist questioning, has satisfied detectives that they are dealing with a genuine case of abduction.

Police insiders have also poured scorn on a theory that Shannon's disappearance was a hoax staged by one or more members of her family in the hope of gaining the reward money offered for her safe return. "Don't be in any doubt. This is an incredibly serious case," a police source told The Times. ....

Almost all the medical tests have been completed, but some forensic science work is continuing.'

From Time on-line yesterday

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:58 AM

'appen. Note no child abuse charge. Curiouser and curiouser.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:43 AM

It is just prurient curiosity, but you have to ask why the delay in charging the man who was holding her.
The police had to ask for extra time before charging him with kidnap and imprisonment.
So, on what grounds was/is he denying the charge?
Consent of the parent?

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:44 AM

"He was hiding in the other drawer? Was he a midget?"

No idea, I wasn't there. Maybe it's another case of the Journos stirring it up as usual. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 06:22 PM

Those last few posts would seem to indicate what I meant about "It can rapidly turn into a kind of mob feeding frenzy..."

There's no need in the world to hurry to make judgements about this. The motives of people who do feel that need are themselves pretty suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Yorkie
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 02:59 PM

There is one hell of a bad smell about this whole case. Voices on the ground say it was all a scam and family members are openly laughing at which newspaper will make the highest bid for their story.

The media called the family "Working Class" well believe me, NONE of the family work, without exception. Unless you call living of Incapacity Benefit or Disability Living Allowance and scrounging of the Welfare State working.

It is a relief that the child is safe. Many of us living here hope the child who is still in the care of Social Services remains there and never returns to that home or that family.

There is a television series in that family, and it wouldn't be a comedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Happy Tapper
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 01:52 PM

He was hiding in the other drawer? Was he a midget?

HT

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 01:17 PM

"Was she 'hidden' in the bed drawer, or 'hiding'?"

Dunno, but her Step-father's uncle was reportedly 'hiding' in the other drawer. I'd say that sounds very suspicious, if she'd simply run away from home, why didn't he either march her straight back or, if for some reason he didn't want to do that, alert the police?

And the fact that she's being kept from her family is surely to ensure that she's able to answer questions without her story being 'massaged' by other (adult) influences.

And surely what has to "take precedence over all other concerns" is to ensure that the person responsible for her abduction doesn't get the chance to do it again with some other child.

This looks like a can of worms that's barely been opened yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 01:14 PM

Speculation is pointless in regard to all this. It can rapidly turn into a kind of mob feeding frenzy, with nothing real to base it on.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 01:01 PM

That's a very peculiar procedure. You'd think a small child would be traumatised at being removed from her parent, and that restoration to normality would take precedence over all other concerns. I suspect that she has asked not to be sent home, but the police aren't saying that for fear of making the redtops go bananas. The whole thing looks like a runaway rather than an abduction. Was she 'hidden' in the bed drawer, or 'hiding'?

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 12:05 PM

'Mrs Matthews, 32, was allowed to see Shannon for just two minutes - just enough to whisper: "My baby, my baby, I love you" as she gazed at the daughter she had feared she might never see again.

A police source explained why Shannon will not be allowed to return home for some days                              
"There is the forensic evidence we need to take first, then the slow interviewing process," they said. "Only when this is completed can we look at sending her home" '

From today's newspaper reports

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 11:59 AM

Does anyone know why she hasn't been allowed to see her mum?

Sal

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 10:53 AM

It's important to distinguish the attitudes and behavior of the media from those of real people. I've learned here that the media were not much interested in Shannon because she was not well-off and was not photogenic. Real people, however, have been looking very hard for her and are rejoicing in her return.

Always remember that a newspaper, a TV news program or a magazine is just a business, and its goal is profit.

As for Shannon's photogenicity, I bet a good photographer could make her look pretty cute. Nobody's bothered.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 08:00 PM

If you were filming what was going on, you'd have to be pretty thick not to have missed it when the news came through.

Remarkable what you can do in the way of malevolent insinuation just by inserting quote marks round a word...

"...need I go on?" Preferably not.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Happy Tapper
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 07:52 PM

I agree it's great that she has been recovered, and hope that she does recover from it all.

What I want to know is how come ITV were exclusively filming the story, and had been 2 days before and were coincidently present when she was 'discovered'? I think there is much more here than we have been told. This family are going to be rewarded by magazines, sleazy tabloids, worldwide tv interviews, morning telly, Richard and Judy... need I go on?

HT

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 06:56 PM

Different circumstances. Different cases. Different outcomes. Different eveything apart from the ones who would still castigate the McCanns for the disappearance of their daughter. Amazing the lengths to which some poeple will go to justify their own previously ill thought arguments.

Sad really.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: GUEST,Guest. who also hopes.
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 06:43 PM

Emma..
I think you misunderstood Scooby's post.
Her comment did not refer adversely to the mother's serial relationships. She simply pointed out the fairly obvious fact that there were several men friends of her mothers that she would know well enough to go away with.
I think the hope that the girl was not "sexually hurt to be scarred for life" was the more important part of her message.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 08:26 PM

On the maps I've seen the Tapas bar does look quite literally round the corner. But aside from that I can't see that what you wrote there in any way differs from what I wrote - there was different opinions expressed about the level of negligence, but no one disputed that the McCann's had behaved foolishly.

Rushing to judgement in these kind of cases, without the kind of detailed knowledge that would be required, is indeed always a mistake. There is often a tendency to do so, and parents of any kind can be the target.

Subject: RE: BS: Shannon found- alive!
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 06:55 PM

Kevin as a professional Child Care worker I have criticised the McCanns for spending several hours drinking in a Tapas bar with friends every night of their holidays (which was not 'round the corner' as the media choose to repeat) and not because they were 'middle class', although they could well have afforded the cost of a baby sitter.

I have also criticised the way that the buisness fund was set up so that the money that ordinary people donated was not able to be used at all to assist in the search for Shannon or indeed any other child.

I replied to scooby's post because it not only brought up the totally irrelevant issue of mother's serial relationships but couldn't even get that accurate!
It seemed all too indicative of a pernicious attitude to what people 'were' rather than anything that they had done.

In this case mother, and the rest of this large, rather 'chaotic' family appear to have done nothing but to act as any other parent would in these circumstances, calling in the police immediately and assisting them at every stage of their enquiries.

As eanjay said - a positive outcome and hopefully a happy recovery for the child too.