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BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least

Jim Lad 19 Mar 08 - 12:52 AM
Gulliver 19 Mar 08 - 12:26 AM
PoppaGator 18 Mar 08 - 05:44 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Mar 08 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,leeneia 18 Mar 08 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,leeneia 18 Mar 08 - 10:43 AM
wysiwyg 18 Mar 08 - 09:58 AM
MMario 18 Mar 08 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,pattyClink 18 Mar 08 - 08:58 AM
Jim Lad 18 Mar 08 - 04:14 AM
Thompson 18 Mar 08 - 03:41 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 08 - 09:13 PM
Sorcha 17 Mar 08 - 09:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 08 - 08:46 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Mar 08 - 07:51 PM
Amergin 17 Mar 08 - 07:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 08 - 06:12 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Mar 08 - 06:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 08 - 05:30 PM
open mike 17 Mar 08 - 05:25 PM
Liz the Squeak 17 Mar 08 - 05:16 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Mar 08 - 04:11 PM
PoppaGator 17 Mar 08 - 03:55 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Mar 08 - 03:45 PM
PoppaGator 17 Mar 08 - 03:30 PM
Peace 17 Mar 08 - 01:56 PM
gnu 17 Mar 08 - 01:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 08 - 01:23 PM
Wesley S 17 Mar 08 - 01:19 PM
Rapparee 17 Mar 08 - 01:15 PM
SINSULL 17 Mar 08 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Mar 08 - 01:12 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 12:52 AM

Catholics are instructed to fulfill their Christmas & Easter duties.
i.e. Holy Mass on Christmas Day & Easter Sunday.
Miss it and you lose your parking spot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: Gulliver
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 12:26 AM

Whatever about the religious side of things, here in Dublin the whole weekend was taken up with events--in fact I'm all partyed-out. Certainly nothing dismal about the music, and our Sunday session was packed with tourists from about six different countries who wouldn't let us stop playing (so we must be doing something right!). Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:44 PM

mg is right; Jim Lad was using the term "Holyday of Obligation" in a very fast-and-loose, and indeed incorrect, manner. (On the other hand, he was right on the button in observing that "I'm sure Paddy doesn't mind stepping aside for the boss. He's done it before and he'll do it again.")

As serious as the liturgies of Holy Week may be, Catholics are not obligated to attend in the same way that they are on Sundays and on the small number of designated Holydays of Obligation. Not even on the supremely solemn occasion of Good Friday, which incidentally is a day on which Mass is NOT said.

I think mg has the list about right, except that the Epiphany (Jan 6) is not included; rather, it's the Feast of the Circumcision (New Year's Day) that is a H of O.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 03:05 PM

Well, dioceses etc. differ but I have never in US heard of SPD being holy day of obligation. I think it is in Canada and Ireland. I have never heard of a Holy Week of Obligation...you should go to church and must of course on Easter but it is Sunday..but I can't think of an official Holy Day there..could be wrong..Holy Thursday maybe...but I don't think so.

Holy Days..

Christmas

Aug 15
Nov 1
Dec 8
Ascension
Epipheny?

Must be a couple more. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:49 AM

And here's the police view of this supposedly religious day:

"Indeed, the rain presented some advantages.

During the parade, police responded to only one disturbance, and it didn't produce an arrest, unlike the violence that marred the parade just two years ago.

Officer Bill Johnson also said parade attendees were quicker to follow police directions when it came to the flow of both foot and motor vehicle traffic. No one wants to stand and argue in the rain.

"It actually avoids a lot of the trouble and the hassle," Johnson said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:43 AM

Oh, please! A date on the calendar has no significance at all. It is just a number.

Kansas City, where I live, is said to have the second-biggest parade in the U.S. Yesterday, at the time of the parade, a hard, cold rain was pouring down. In fact, it poured for hours yesterday. March is such an unpleasant month here that it could have been snow or freezing rain. It could have been bitterfly cold. Instead we got rain. There were lightning and thunder as well.

People put much time and money into floats and units for this? People risked lightning for this?

Why don't they have the parade in a month with nicer weather?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad day for Irish in parts of US at least
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:58 AM

As I had a few minutes on my hands last night for the first Mass of Holy Week, I read through the Episcopal Church's "precedence" customs. Saints' days were mentioned as a group, but there was no wagging finger pointing out St. Patrick especially, and no dire warnings of what would be done to parishioners who chose a private celebration for their favorite saint ON the actual day.

I guess if one WANTS to look for occasions of upset, as a way of honoring a saint of their choice, they can.... but it doesn't seem particularly a Patrick-ish attitude. Nonetheless, if a good Catholic is so bothered by having to choose between Jesus and Patrick, they are free (whether their priest says so or not) to choose as they wish. :~) Or, of course, they could go ahead and choose BOTH.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: MMario
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:21 AM

People - moving the "official" observation of a Saint's day is a normal thing; and it is to ALLOW celebration of the Saint's Day when other (moveable) feasts take precedence.

Since *MOST* people in the US celebrate Saint Pat's as a secular holiday - it doesn't make any difference - it is the RELIGIOUS observation that moved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 08:58 AM

How bizarre that The Church couldn't find a way to dignify St. Patrick's day properly. The guy was one of the greatest evangelists who ever lived, everything he did had everything to do with Holy Week.

When it fell on Sundays when I was little, it was an excuse to have a big corned-beef dinner with all the relatives and have a more 'family' day than a 'party' day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:14 AM

St Patrick's day always falls during lent. This is Holy week and that's where the difference is.
Where I was raised, most of the men gave up drinking for lent but almost all of them stopped for Holy Week. I still do.
Celebrating during Holy Week is a big "No no" to me and to most of the folks I grew up with.
That being said... St Patrick's day is first & foremost, a Holy Day of Obligation. Holy week is a Holy week of obligation. St Patrick gets one day and Jesus Christ gets the whole week.
I'm sure Paddy doesn't mind stepping aside for the boss. He's done it before and he'll do it again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 03:41 AM

Ahem, small point: Patrick was a *Christian* saint, not just Catholic. The holy man is commemorated for spreading the Christian faith in Ireland, and is so remembered by all Christian faiths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 09:13 PM

"They were trying to get people to not celebrate St. Patrick's Day on the day itself." If you've actually got clergy in your part of the world discouraging people from celebrating St Patrick's Day as normal, you've got some pretty deviant clergy. Not quite heretics maybe, but tending that way...

Our parish there was a Hoolie on Saturday, advertised for weeks in the newsletter, to raise funds among other things. And Saint Patrick's Breastplate for a hymn on the Sunday. And we haven't even got Irish clergy (they are Poles).


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 09:02 PM

mg, if you want to let a church run your life, feel free and stop moaning. Either your church is right or it's wrong. YOU get to decide.

Me, I don't deal with all that blather. Just wear a bit o' the green on the Day, hoist a few and call it good. NO church is going to run my life. I decided. So can you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 08:46 PM

Now for me it's the sad songs that cheer me up, and the jolly ones that tend to depress me. (And that's just as true when it comes to hymns, since this threads has a liturgical connection.)

When you're down, the only way is up, and when you're up on the other hand...


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 07:51 PM

Also at least where I am from, we don't sing sad and dismal songs..they are somewhat chjeerful like McNamara's Band and Dear Old Donegal....or at least they have cheerful tunes. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: Amergin
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 07:47 PM

Lts you asked: Did God really give us saints as an excuse to go and get reeling drunk and sing dire, dismal and dreadful songs?

The answer is yes in fact he did....he told me so just last night.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 06:12 PM

Big parade in London today - here's a clip of one of the floats, from Montserrat in the West Indies, where a lot of Irish were transported as slaves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 06:01 PM

I don't know how many of the people at parades and pubs and private homes today are reeling drunk. Some to be sure. Most probably not. Some like myself would have been stone cold sober, with the possible exception of an Irish Coffee....had one last year at T.S. McHugh's....mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:30 PM

Well, tell them if they repeat this in 2160 you will be very cross, mg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: open mike
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:25 PM

this says millions are celbrating, so i guess it has not slowed down much http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iTq6K6kn_ggV1MfJofKgU6qTeImA


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:16 PM

I'm not so sure about that... Did God really give us saints as an excuse to go and get reeling drunk and sing dire, dismal and dreadful songs?

St Patrick's day seems more like Saturnalia every year.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 04:11 PM

Contraire Pierre. They were trying to get people to not celebrate St. Patrick's Day on the day itself. Has precious little with what liturgy is being celebrated that day. They don't want the parades etc. on that day, which often would be the day before on a weekend anyway. But it still sucks. I guarantee you that unless it was Good Friday itself, and possibly Holy Thursday, God would not mind. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 03:55 PM

Monday of Holy Week, and indeed Tuesday and Wednesday as well, are not especially dramatic. The Passion doesn't really heat up until Thursday, night of the Last Supper and Gethsemane. However, the liturgical calendar includes masses for each of these days of "early" Holy Week, and they always supercede whatever saints' feast days would normally be celebrated. None of us notice or care when St. Whatizname of Poduck loses a feast day once every decade or two, but when it's Patrick, well then, lots of folks sit up and take notice.

The whole week is supposed to commemorate Christ's final week on earth, spent in Jerusalem at Passover time and starting on Palm Sunday, when he paraded into town as a hero, being cheered by the same crowd that would be shouting "Crucify Him!" later in the week on Friday.

But nobody's stopping you from celebrating outside of church. And even in the church itself, if you wanted to go to weekday Mass early this morning, no one would have or could have stopped you from saying a few words of prayer to Patrick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 03:45 PM

Skip it? It is worse than I thought.

I apologize for the idiocy of my spiritual leaders, as others have had to recently. The Monday of Holy Week is not an especially important day to Catholics. Good Friday, yes, and I would tone it down that day etc. But not on Monday. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 03:30 PM

St. Patrick's Day almost always falls during Lent, Rap, and the Church has always allowed a "dispensation" for celebrating this feast. What's unusual about this year is that Easter is about as early in the year as it can possibly be, putting March 17 at the beginning of Holy Week, the final week of Lent, which is sort-of "Super Lent," a much more serious concern than the previous five weeks.

While the Feast of St. Patrick is off the liturgical calendar this year, with the church advising all the parishes named for St. Pat to hold their name-day celebrations a couple of days early and for other churches to just skip it, secular observation of the day is going ahead as usual just about everywhere. (I'm still sober at 2:30 pm CDT, but I can't afford to take the day off work. Just wait another few hours, though...)

Peace, about those long-distance calls in 2160: Jesus is on the mainline, tell him what you want!


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: Peace
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 01:56 PM

They will be long distance, that's for sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 01:55 PM

Damn! I was planning a big party for 2160! Guess I have some calls to make.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 01:23 PM

So far as I'm aware, shifting the liturgical celebration of St Patrick to a later date, because it falls in Holy Week this year, isn't doing anything to stop celebration of the 17th in all other contexts. And it's still a Bank Holiday in Ireland.

I don't think there's much need to worry about this. The next time Easter falls this early is in 2160. (Here is a list of dates, just so people can be ready in time...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 01:19 PM

The way most people celibrate St Patricks Day { getting blotto and singing Danny Boy } has nothing to do with the church anyway. So does it matter?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 01:15 PM

In, I believe, 1939 St. Patrick's Day fell during Lent. People pretty much ignored the RC church's moving the celebration to April 2.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 01:13 PM

Didn't take much, did it? Do you need the church's approval to celebrate the day?
Mary


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Subject: BS: Sad dayfor Irish in parts of US at least
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 01:12 PM

The grinch that stole St. Patrick's Day...our own church. Something to me has been irretrievably lost...it was under pressure to die but now it has died I think...for me. can't speak for anyone else. mg


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