BS: The London Mayor Election

Subject: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 09:38 AM

At last, some good news for those of us in London who are fed up with the wretched Mayor:

"Boris Johnson has soared ahead of Ken Livingstone in the race to be Mayor, an Evening Standard poll reveals.

The most detailed survey yet puts the Tory candidate 12 points ahead, suggesting many Londoners feel it is time for change."

Hooray

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 11:19 AM

Turn again, Whittington, Lord Mayor of London. That is all I know about London Mayors...

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:18 PM

History of it all.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:50 PM

You may be fed up of Ken,

But come on!

Boris?

I wouldn't trust him to get me a pint!

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:02 PM

The history of the Evening Standard's '
'relentless pursuit' of Ken Livingstone

'Boris is posh, right-wing and clearly the man the Evening Standard are pinning their hopes on to topple Livingstone. Which is fine. They can back whoever they choose to back. But then this is a paper published by the Associated Group, a company which at times during the proprietorship of Viscount Rothermere in the 1930s was openly sympathetic towards Oswald Moseley, Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler. Is today's Standard a good judge of character?'

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 02:15 PM

I must confess I was a bit surprised - living in London I don't generally encounter that many people who would choose Boris over Ken.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 03:31 PM

Emma B. I really must take issue with you. The London Standard may well have supported all these people in the past, but Livingstone has associated himself with some of the worst elements of the left wing, including various Trotskiests who wished to impose a communist dictorship on the whole of Great Britain, not to mention various Islamofascists whose anti-semitism undermines Livingstones own alleged anti-racist stance. Don't let us forget the cronyisim that Livingstone has created. Anyway, I doubt if the Evening Standard is capable of changing people's minds. If newspapers really had that power, we would never have had a labour Party elected in London, parliament or elsewhere.

Lox. If you have not met people dissatisfied with Livingstone, that probably means you associate mainly with people of your own way of thinking. Anyway, if Boris came into my local, I would buy him a pint with my own money.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 03:57 PM

It has always been the habit of those in power, and their supporters, to decry and call for the closure of people and organisations who disagree with them.
I think Boris has a good chance of getting in, on the same basis as this government got elected on an 'anybody but the Tories' landslide, he is likely to get in on an 'anybody but Ken' one.
Ken got a sympathy vote in the first place, but he has wiped out most of the charitable feelings in his erstwhile supporters with his doctrinaire socialism.
Ken is Labour's Maggie Thatcher, he was a good and a needed thing at first, but his inability to moderate his lunacy has lost him his credibility.
G

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:07 PM

It is perhaps not coincidence, Rockin Reeler, that the Sun became more scathing of the Tories and supportive of Labour around the time of New Labours first big win, and Murdoch generally encouraged a more pro Labour spin.

Underestimating the power of the tabloids to influence ppeoples voting is, in my view, a little hasty.

I associate with parents, being sole carer for my 3 year old. They make up a complete cross section of society.

And while they may be dissatisfied to a greater or lesser extent by Ken, they would in general rather him to Boris.

Which I think was my point.

So when you've finished reinterpreting my words you can choose whether or not to address them.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 04:37 PM

Lox. I dont think that I was reinterpreting your words and I did address the issues you raised. However, to repeat, although politicians suck up to the press barons in a most disgusting way, I often wonder if politicians, press barons, and you, are not over-estimating the power of the press. If I read something I profoundly disagree with, I just disagree with it. As, I am sure, you do, and everyone else does. We should be wary of the Press Barons, but let's not get too paranoid.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:48 AM

Ken does seem to have developed a habit of over-reacting to criticism and being bull-headed when criticised - but the very idea of an idiot like Boris Johnson running London is wholly alarming. I don't object to him on class grounds - after all Tony Wedgwood Benn is of upper class - but that he is another of those "small government" idiots who will destroy destroy destroy all of the things in London that assist those who need assistance.

The Standard has been after Ken with lies and half-truths and a terrifying single mindedness for years now, and the merest glance at any of its pages will show you its extreme right-wing agenda. It demonstrates again the danger of press and media power in the hands of megalomaniacs.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:35 AM

Boris Johnson is far from the bumbling idiot he likes to portray. He is an intellectual with various weighty tomes to his name, an ex-editor of the Spectator, and an MP with Ministerial experience. He is just what London needs.

Down with Livingstone and his Trotskiest anti-semites whose sole object is to set Londoner agaisnt Londoner, to treat London as if it was a city state with him as the president, and to help burden us with the wretched Olympics.

Boris for Mayor.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:35 AM

The least said about the bendy buses, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Gervase
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:11 PM

Boris Johnson?
A yes, the man that refers without irony to black kids as 'piccaninnies' and who offered to perjure himself and provide money for a hitman to help the absurd Old Etonian criminal Darius Guppy. His ministerial experience is minuscule, and much of his time at the Spectator was spent shagging Petronella Wyatt and then pleading with her to have an abortion.
The same BJ who, as MP for Henley, sounds off in his local paper about how disgraceful it is that the Met should try to woo promising police recruits from his patch, and as mayoral candidate bangs on about the Met having the right to recruit the best from wherever they can.
Hypocritical? Opportunistic? Dishonest? Racist? Adulterous? Hmm, the chap's got so much going for him!
I'd much rather Ken, with his eight years of solid experience and a proven track record. I'd even like to see a couple of his "Trotskiest" mates rather than Boris. Is Trotskiest redder than Trotskier, by the way?

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:17 PM

If you want to condemn someone as a Trotskyist or Trotskyite, it may be wise to learn to spell it.

Boris Johnson would be as bad as that ghastly Porter woman, still on the run from a surcharge upheld at every level of the courts and still hiding her millions from justice behind family trusts.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:57 PM

Which is why I never shop at a well-known supermarket.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:03 PM

I wouldn't trust the Evening Standard.

I don't think any of the posters (so far) apart from lox, me and Rockin' Reeler actually get to vote on this...?

Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:06 PM

I haven't made up my mind whaat I want yet, but I would rather try out my new hand held blender in my underpants than vote for Boris!

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:33 AM

Am i the only one who sees Livingstone for the danger that he is? He has burdened us with that great white elephant of a three week over bloated sports day that is the Olympics; he has embraced identity politics for the most cynical of reasons - to get people to think of themselves as a group - gay, Irish, muslim - and then encourages that group to dwell on past, present, real or imagined grievences - in order to gather i their votes - and then embraces representatives of those groups, which very often do not represent the views of that community, anyway, being very often too extreme on the left or, if Muslim, too far to the right; treating the capital as if it were a City State, when in reality London relies on ALL its wealth on being the capital of Britain, with out which London would wither away; and finally, inflicting on all of us those bendy buses, which are so dangerous. The cronyism is out of control: he has surrounded himself with extremes of all types: Trotskyites (or however you spell the damn word); fasciest Islamic clerics who want to execute Gays, apostates, and Rushdie; and general crackpots who find an audience with Livingstone but with no-one else. NO NO NO. Do not vote for Livingstone. Vote for Boris. The alternative is deadly.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:15 AM

But, R/R, even if what you said about Cuddly Ken were true, it would still be better that the fascist loonie who is the only alternative. Do you really want EVERY service that London provides slashed to the bone by a "no tax" idealogue?

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:25 AM

Less than Cuddly Ken embraces real extremists, real fanatics. Boris, on the other hand, maybe on the right, but he is not a fascist and not a loon. He attracts other Conservatives, not BNP types. No. Ken must go. Anyway, he wants to cut spending, not do away with it. He has costed his budget. His 30 minute speech is somewhere on YouTube, so services will not be slashed, but some of the more questionable junkets and dubious "causes" that the mayor presently funds from our rates will disappear.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Gervase
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 06:33 PM

So, why does Ken suddenly want to do this after eight years of running London pretty successfully? Is he in the control of some weird purple lizards who always wait eight years before putting their fiendish plans into operation? I voted for Ken twice, and if I still lived in London I'd vote for him again.
And I don't thing the Oympics was entirely Ken's fault - I seem to recall Seb Coe having a lot to do with it, and he's a Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 06:51 PM

Johnson was on the news again tonight. He of course has no answer to the charge that since he was in Parliament he has had nothing to say about London - until now. So he counterattacks by saying that Ken wasted £425million by litigating against the public-private partnership for Metronet funding.

Er - stupid Johnson, I guess time proved Ken right on that one, and the courts wrong.

Just like it did on the Fare's Fair policy.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:57 PM

So Ken surrounds himself with people of the far left and the far right, with homophobes and gays, with extremes of every kind ...

How partisan of him.

... oh no ... that's not the word ...

That's when you decide you'll only listen to the people you think have sensible opinions ...

So let me think ... listening to representatives of people of every side ... involving them all in the debate ... being inclusive ...

what's the word again ... oh yes,

Democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:23 PM

Lox. It is not the case of surrounding himself with representatives of every side, it is a case of surrounding himself with the extremes of every side and thinking that they represent the genuine voice of the people of London. The only "minority" group who don't have a voice in the court of King Ken are British white people. If they did, you can bet Livingstone would invite in the BNP. As odious as the BNP are, they are no worse than the far left and militant islamists that he now surrounds himself with. He has taken on a warped view of London. He is someone who has spent his whole life on the fringes of the far left, a group who have their own very unrealistic view on life.

This is not democracy, this is madness. I call on Londoners to shit Livingstone out of our body politic.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 04:52 AM

I'm starting to feel a little uncomfortable about what you are nearly saying in your first paragraph RR.

But if the alternative to Ken is Boris Johnson? Oh dear.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 05:09 AM

Enlighten me, Mr Bridge, what did I "nearly" say.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 06:26 AM

He surrounds himself with militant islamists?

So he's in cahoots with the bombers eh?

And they haven't seen an opportunity to do spmething silly to the mayor of london?

Oh of course - I see your point - he's not like other white people - they don't mind him cos he's an extremist too - and the office of mayor is actually an al quaeda protectorate.

He has religious immunity.

But no - sriously - those extremist like to flock together don't they, no matter what side they're on.

Kens with the commies, then there's the islamists, and the homophobes ad the homophobics, all working together to think about ways of sabotaging the lives of us moderates.

Wonder why they never thought to get together like this before ...

Imagine if Orthodox jews got together with hamas in the middle east - or the "real" IRA got together with some extreme prods in northern Ireland,

or moslems and christians in lebanon got together.

How much damage could they really do then?

I see - by bringing all thes people together round the table and making sure their voices are listened to red commie ken is encouraging terrorists to blow us all up.

Just like the north of Ireland in fact.

erm ...Only that talking actually brought an end to violence there ... erm ...

No but of course - back to the point - talkking and negotiation put us at risk while exclusion and ) tolerance will make us safe.

Well thanks for helping me understand that better.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 06:27 AM

"No but of course - back to the point - talkking and negotiation put us at risk while exclusion and ) tolerance will make us safe."


should have read "exclusion and intolerance"

lox

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: folk1e
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 05:07 PM

"Am i the only one who sees Livingstone for the danger that he is? "..... RR

Erm ...... YES! Apparently you are!

btw it might not be a bad idea to write(right .... is that a pun?) some of your arguments down and look at them again after you have calmed down a bit. Even trying some of them on your mates could be a good idea! Probably the best media for writing some of these down on can be found in a handy roll at the side of the loo!

Power to the people!

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 06:29 AM

Er...No. Apparently I'm not. Boris is ahead of Livingstone in the polls.

lox. I think you are seriously missing the point about Livingstone. He doesn't bring disparate extreme groups together to build understanding between them. He does it to build a power base. An extremist himself, he builds alliances with people with views as extreme as himself. As someone who has a hatred of the society he was born in to, he aligns himself with others who feel the same way. Mostly, these are on the left, but because of Palestine and the Gulf War, he has also aligned himself with extreme radical right-wing anti Semitic wife beating clerics such as Qaradawi, a fucking fascist in everything but name and whose favourite toilet reading is Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. This goes down well with a lot of young Muslims who feel alienated, which is the point.

If Livingstone really wanted to being disparate groups of people together, then he would bring Irish Protestants and Catholics, Jews and Muslims, Homosexuals and Homophobes, etc. together, but he doesn't. He is selective and if you are selective, you are hardly going to bring people together, and anyway, that is not his agenda. His agenda, which is an evil one, is to play on grievances, give these grievances a platform, milk them for all that they are worth, and build a power base.

I hope now you understand where I am coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 06:35 AM

...and just to add. How would you feel if Livingstone decided to build on the resentment of a lot of white people and brought on board the Ku Klux Klan and the BNP? Pretty pissed off, I should imagine. I know I would be.

It seems to me lux that you have built an image of Livingstone in your head which doesnt match the reality. In other words, you have fallen for his line. Open your eyes.

...and I didn't even mention the bendy buses.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: folk1e
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 08:29 PM

"he has also aligned himself with extreme radical right-wing anti Semitic wife beating clerics such as Qaradawi, a fucking fascist in everything but name and whose favourite toilet reading is Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. This goes down well with a lot of young Muslims" .....RR

Yes ... Well you didn't take my point about calming down a bit did you?
I assume you have some proof of this statement! Realy I feel some congratulation are in order here ....Semitic wife beating clerics and Mein Kampf linked together ..... like WOW!

"Boris is ahead of Livingstone in the polls." .... RR
Yes right .... these are the polls that are reprisentative of whome?
Do a little straw poll with yourself and your reflection? or are we readind the same right wing paper already discredited above?

"I hope now you understand where I am coming from." .....RR

I think the concensus would be "Not on this Planet!" ..... but I havn't taken a poll pn that , it is just my opinion!

"...and I didn't even mention the bendy buses." .....RR

??? .....You dont go around in a Purple Shellsuit do you?

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 10:18 PM

It was a MORI poll and MORI polls are pretty reputable. The information about Qaradawi,the scumbag whom you may admire but I don't, came from the book by Nick Cohen, "What's Left," a book I recommend to everyone in Britain on the disastrous course taken by the left in recent times.

The rest of your comments, folk l e, are just insults, unworthy of the good faith assumed by most in Mudcat, so fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 07:32 AM

Gosh you are an angry little fellow aren't you ...

I paid more attention to your mention of "mein kampf" and "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

I haven't read the latter, but it does sound kind of Jewish - not the kind of thing you'd expect someone to have next to "mein kampf" on the bookshelf - much less a moslem.

Thank you RR for the entertainment.

I haven't witnessed such an authentic display of paranoid frothing in a while.

I'm off to find out more about this protocols book (perhaps it's an IT manual for the israeli government)

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 07:37 AM

OK - back after 2 minutes ...

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about the Protocols book.

______________

""The Protocols" (the most brief title by which the text is known) is an early example of contemporary conspiracy theory literature,[1] and takes the form of a speech describing how to dominate the world, the need to control the media, finance, replace traditional social order, etc. It is one of the best known and discussed examples of literary forgery, and a hoax.[2]

The text was popularized by those opposed to the Russian revolutionary movement, and was disseminated further after the revolution of 1905, becoming known worldwide after the 1917 October Revolution. It was widely circulated in the West in 1920 and thereafter. The Great Depression and the rise of Nazism were important developments in the history of the Protocols, and the hoax continued to be published and circulated despite its debunking.

____________________


ok - very interesting.

Now to go and find out about Qaradawi and livingstone - and perhaps even about Qaradawi's toilet routine.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:21 AM

I've tried twice to post links to Livngstones response and to Qaradawi's website, but both times I've been unsuccesful.

Don't know why.


There is no evidence that Qaradawi holds the views or reads the books you claim he does.

Please provide evidence (not unsubstantiated articles but evidence)

Meanwhile, I'll try posting the links for the third and last time.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:22 AM

one of kens responses (scroll down to find it)

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:23 AM

another response from ken

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:25 AM

Qaradawi's website

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:27 AM

As I said before, I got it from Nick Cohen's book, "What's Left." It's worth reading.

However, look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CWvmqDrItI

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:27 AM

who is he?

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: redsnapper
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:35 AM

At least two of us Londoners here like Ken Livingstone...

RS

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:39 AM

I looked at it here

And heard peter tatchell call him homophobic and antisemitic.

And didn't see any evidence provided to support these accusations

The pope is homophobic according to the same criteria as he sees homosexuality as being at odds with catholicism in the same way that Qaradawi sees it being at odds with Islam.

You won't find any catholic or moslem saying that homosexuality is ok - it's against their religious teaching.
And likewise their is no evidence of him advocating violence against homosexuals.

Should the pope be denied entry if he wants to come to the UK? should ken refuse to see him?

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:48 AM

Nick Cohen hopefully provides verifiable sources?

If I'm going accept accusations as serious as the ones you are making I will neeed to see some kind of evidence, if not that they are true, then that they have been recognized to be true by some accredited arbiter - like the courts.

as in the case, for example, of Abu Hamza. Evidence wasprovidedand he was convicted.

What do you have on Qaradawi.

Ok lets go check out Nick Cohen.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:58 AM

"I suspect how people react to this book will depend quite a bit on where they stand politically. I have noticed on blogs and messageboards that it has enraged the Trots and Trot-lite fellow travellers in the anti-war movement. It's also had enthusisatic approval from those you might expect it from - Christoper Hitchens, John Lloyd etc. Whereas I imagine some on the Right will (wilfuly?) misread the book as "all Lefties are soft on terrorists". (Although having said that Peter Oborne wrote a very fair-minded review)"

Interesting.

A review of the various reviews. And they do differ.

The general consensus seems to be - a good attempt with useful ideas, but also self indulgent and misguided.

I still need enlightenment on what he has to say about Qaradawi and more importantly HOW he supprots his claims.

That's you job.

Glad you enjoyed the book.

Read any others?

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 11:10 AM

This is a reply to the Mayor's report that the Gay and Lesbian Humanist Associaiton put out:

http://www.galha.org/briefing/qaradawi.html

Sorry I cannot do the blue clicky thing. Some times it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 11:11 AM

I'm reading Fear of FLying by Erica Jong at the moment, which is an extremely well written book.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 12:22 PM

Ok, I read the refutation and then I followed the links and then I read the whole of each link leading to each cited bit of source material.

There are things there that I don't agree with, especially to do with circumcision, but when you bear in mind that men are ritually circumcised in the US and in Israel, the question must be asked - who has the right not to be circumcized and who doesn't and if we all share that right then all perpetrators of such a crime should be held equally accountable.

On the question of domestic violence, I read about how a mistreated wife has the right to divorce her husband and how those men who are violent towards their wives are "less than the rest of us".

As is the case with the archbishop of canterbury, Qaradawi is a scholar who writes lengthily on topics and does not just say dogmatically "this is good" or "this is bad", but explores issues in depth and considers all the arguments. In his case it comes down to interpreting the Quran specifically.

His efforts are an attempt to interprtet the Quran in as relevant a way as possible to the worries and needs of everyday people and their worries.

I'm not seeing any attempt to mobilize men to go out and murder gays or beat their wives.

I do see (and for the record I disagree with him)that he is partisan in his support of the palestinians in what he perceives to be an armed conflict between them and what he sees as the occupying state of Israel over territory and resources.

But I know many white English people who share that view, so it is probable that someone from Qatar will have sympathy for the palestinian cause.

I have to go despite wanting to stay and write more.

But my view in a nutshell is:

Taking selective quotes of an islamic cleric out of context to prove that Ken Livingstone is a threat to our security is a sequence of logical jumps that I am far from being persuaded to make.

Subject: RE: BS: The London Mayor Election
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:29 PM

No. I have looked at the links, as you have done, and it hasn't changed my mind about Qaradawi.

For a start, female circumcision is not the same as male circumcision, where only the foreskin is removed. Female circumcision is more akin to mutilation.

Qaradawi has also ruled that a grown up Muslim who decided to convert to another religion or become an atheist "is a traitor ...and thus deserves killing."

Yes, beating your wife is the last resort, but he does condone it. Well, I ask you, in these post feminist times, if you would like to call it that, is this acceptable for a so called progressive like Livingstone?

You say that English people also support the Palestinian cause, which is fair enough. [You can be English and muslim.] But to support the murder of young children? This is a step too far. This is the voice of hate.

Do you see Livingstone inviting a Jewish rabbi from Israel over to London to put their case while drooling obsequiously over them?

He recently attended a rally, organised by the Muslim Council, to defend the freedom of worship - as if freedom of worship was in danger in this country - but have you heard Livingstone defend the right of writers to speak freely against religion, such as Rushdie? Livingstone, so vocal in voicing his opinions, was, at best, mealy mouthed on this; but vigorous in supporting Qaradawi.

Livingstone's actions belie someone who will say anything to garner the support of alienated Musims, say whatever to win them over, and if it is at the expense of another group - the Jews- then so be it.

There are worse clerics than Qaradawi, but he is still bad. (I'm still hunting for his approval of Mein Kampf and Protocols, although these books are popular within a hard line circle of Muslims throughout the world. I shall find them.)

If Livingstone is so progressive, why has he not, in terms, unequivocal, condemned the murder of Theo van Gogh; the murder of Israeli citizens, including children; female mutilation; and come to the defence of Rushdie and that teacher in the middle east who named a teddy bear after Muhammad which resulted in thousands of Muslims to come out on the street and demand her death? Mealy mouthed mumbles at the best of times: accommodation of these people at the worst of times. For example, when Qaradawi was over here, why didn't our Mayor ask these questions of him? Because it was not in his interest to do so.

People have got wise to Livingstone and hopefully democracy and our personal liberty will be well served when the people of London throw him out.