UK betrayed too.

Subject: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:58 AM

On another thread Peace makes a good point that this election in the USA is a defining one for the USA. If it cannot at this stage rout the forces oppression that have ruled with lies and self-interest for so long it may well never be free again.

Unfortunately it seems something similar may threaten the UK. The conservatives now have an opinion poll lead over Labour larger than any since the conservative landslide that put the evil dictator Thatcher in power. I had hoped and believed that the Thatcher experience would for ever make the conservatives unelectable in the UK, but it seems it is not so.

Cameron, alas, seems set to out-Bliar the bullshitting Bliar, and worm his way into acceptablity with cosy belief utterances that deceive by vagueness and image.

Cry, England. If the bastards can recover so soon from the wilderness, never again will you have a national health service, a national transport infrastructure, a welfare state. Everything we have valued will be sold to the highest bidder and run into the ground in the name of profit, or priced so that only the rich can afford it.

It is time, again, for that petrol emotion.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:59 AM

Damn, sorry, that should have been BS. Can an elf please move it?

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:18 AM

Richard, I share your concern. The tory b*****ds will probably legalise fox hunting again, as well.Problem is, As the Oysterband song says, "whoever you vote for, the government gets in".

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GRex
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:23 AM

I do hope that we can keep the Tories out of power.
I'm in my eighties and the only times in my lifetime that the Tories have been 'pro Joe Public' is when they were in opposition. Not that I consider the New Labour to be much better.

         GRex

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:03 AM

We've had the Tories in power since 1979. We thought we had kicked them out in 1997, but all we got was a different set of Tories. I can't see that changing whoever gets elected.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:24 AM

Reasons for preferring the present Labour Party over the Tories are getting fewer and fewer.

It's still possible to argue that the Labour Party out in the country is often a lot nicer than the Front Bench, and that the Tory Party is often a lot nastier than its Front Bench. But the possibility of the decent parts of the Labour Party taking back control are probably even slimmer while they stay in power than if they get chucked out.

The best hope may be that a hung parliament results in electoral reform that will enable a new party lineup to develop, so we can vote the way we prefer, rather than just trying to keep out whichever bunch of politicians looks the most unpleasant.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:55 AM

Interesting!
G

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: kendall
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:44 AM

A dear friend of mine once described the political fiasco as: Bread and Circuses. As long as the people have both, they have no need to think or act.

In this country, we have the same problem. Celebrity worship. Never mind the issues...attack the other guy. If he/she has no skeletons in his/her closet, invent one! Do or say anything to get elected.
In my opinion, Dennis Kucinich would have been the best president, but he didn't get to first base. Why? he is short and could use a charisma transplant.Hillary has name recognition, and little else. Obama is an unknown, possibly an empty suit who speaks well. But, so does Tony Bliar.

Most of us wait until the choice is down to two, and by then it's just too damn late, and there is no real choice.
We should get involved from the start and support the candidate that would be the best suited for the job, not the one with the most money!
Someone said we get the kind of government we deserve. Right on brother, right on.Pissing and moaning after the deed is done has never changed anything.
Hermann Goering was right.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: kendall
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 08:55 AM

"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.
It works in any country."

             Hermann Goering

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 01:55 PM

Evil dicator Richard? Using hyperbole like that I wonder if you are in the real world.
As for new Labour being Tory, no, they are not. They have simply tried to give Socialism an acceptable face and failed miserably.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:19 PM

Yes, evil dictator. I wasn't on the picket lines, but now in my heart I know I should have been. As a lawyer for 30 years I know when justice is not on the government's agenda.

If you think there is much socialism in New Labour, it is you who need a reality check. But the only thing worse than the conservative bastards back again would be the BNP or National Front (who largely are illiterate as well as evil).

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:27 PM

An interesting take on what might happen if a socialist government were elected is in Chris Mullin (now M.P.)'s novel A Very British Coup.

People say a champagne socialist is an absurdity; I think just as absurd, tho I know a few, are working-class tories. They are poor and still think Thatch was wonderful.

Lots of w-c. tories are like those privates with a field mardhall's baton in their knapsacks. certainly I've been unwilling to represent working people vis-a-vis management at work because half of them are on managements' side.

The working-class are brought in conditions of severity and punishment, just the stuff to give the troops to encourage their conservatism. And many of them wouldn't say boo to a goose, never mind the supervisor, the boss, the rich, the Queen. They prefer to live on their knees and just complain.

They also have no problem never hearing about stuff that would shake their conservatism. Tell them about tax evasion, the size of the profits made by major corporations, how long it takes Bill gates to earn what takes them all year (i.e., the time it takes to drop a piece of paper and pick it up again), the size of city bonuses - note, not salaries, bonuses, how society works, and such like, and their eyes/brains glaze over. Too frightening (?) to even think about.

An insight into why people imprison themselves thusly is Listen, Little Man! by Wilhelm Reich.


I don't know why tories get so exercised by it all. Maybe they're easily frightened. maybe they're control freaks. maybe they never do anything for the first time.(One definition of a conservative). I don't see they have much to worry them; there's not going to be anything drastic done here.


    Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:02 PM

A lawyer knowing about justice? There is a strange thing!

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:10 PM

I'm not sure social justice is on the agenda of any of the political parties at the moment. Maybe it's an impossible goal but that's no reason not to keep striving towards it and I'm damn sure that the only parties who are further away from that goal are the BNP and UKIP.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:23 PM

And why shouldn't a member of the working class support the conservatives?
Despite the delusion of the Socialist movement, the Labour party has most certainly NEVER been the party of the working class! all it has been is the party of a self appointed middle class elite riding on the backs of the working class.
And why am I a Conservative supporter? The '70s. When the UK was nearly brought to it's knees by bloody minded Donkey Jacket Trades Unionism and incompetant Socialist government.
At least, thanks to Mrs Thatcher, we only have the current incompetant Socialist Government to put up with and not the Donkey Jackets!

Richard, for one so concerned with "justice," your wish to have prevented workers from legally going to work seems rather strange. Did you really want to overthrow a legally elected government? Or perhaps you believe that such a legally elected government should have rolled over and died in the face of a viscious attempt to impose "Socialism" on the majority of the population who had voted against it?
I never ceases to amaze me how many embittered and frustrated Socialists, knowing that they will never get their way by fair democratic means, would have supported, and would probably still support a violent revolution in this country, despite the plain lessons of history vis a vis the USSR and communist China.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:14 PM

Rule from the barrel of a gun, Sapper?

I'm old enough that when I qualified I was asked to tea at the Law SOciety to see if I had the necessary personal qualities to be a solicitor.

Why do you want to be a solicitor?"

If you answered "Because I want to be a filthy rich bastard" you were not enrolled.


Now tell me, why, oh Sapper, did you want to join the army, to travel overseas, to meet fascinatingly different foreign people of varied and colourful cultures
(roll down)



















And kill them?


Befehl ist befehl seems to be your motto.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:42 PM

This country needs John Tams in charge of it!

And, her people need to look to Crazy Horse, for some wisdom in how to love their land.

Get rid of ALL politicians and put it in the hands of people who care. However, the people have to demand that first. Apathy has brought us to this sorry state, both here and in the US, and until we raise our heads up and start to find our voices once more, we ain't going nowhere.

"ALL IT TAKES FOR EVIL TO TRIUMPH IS FOR GOOD MEN TO DO NOTHING"

We've all been doing nothing for way too long and look what has happened.


'The Return of Crazy Horse' by Dan Britton

"We need leaders, not self-serving fools
Hanging out with rock stars to make them look cool
They're dealers, just shadows of men
Bringing down bad karma, again and again

"We need leaders, people to trust
Someone to look to who cares about us
We need healers, the medicine men
It's too late for 'if', it's got to be 'when'

"Lily-livered goons, red necked baffoons
Masquerading as leaders of men
They'll be swept aside
Nowhere left to hide
When Crazy Horse rides again
When Crazy Horse rides again

"We need leaders not jobs for the boys
Playing war games like a kid with his toys
They're feeders with vampire eyes
Attracting others like shit attract flies


"Lily-livered goons, red necked baffoons
Masquerading as leaders of men
They'll be swept aside
Nowhere left to hide
When Crazy Horse rides again
When Crazy Horse rides again

The Return of Crazy Horse

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:12 PM

Wasn't it Crazy Horse who rode into the trap at the battle of little Big Horn? Not such a good plan.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 02:33 AM

Because workingg-class people, in voting Conservative, are voting against their own interests.

Nor apathy, Apaloosa, but fear, ignorance, impotence, masochism


   Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:17 AM

I know nothing of British politics except Blair was a smooth talker and that he liked George Bush alot.

autolycus - Are you talking about the uneducated masses? They've been around a long time and they have been known to rise up when living conditions are so dismal that they have to take action.

After reading this thread, it sounds as if there is little or no hope in Britain.

Maybe you'll get lucky and a charismatic, woman of colour will appear on the political scene and win the heart of a nation.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:54 AM

Little Big Horn was one they won. Custer's Last Stand and all that.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:12 AM

Iam with Richard, here, and not just because I am a fellow lawyer.

I was on the picket lines :

Clay Cross rent strike ; Tower Hamlets rent strike ; Minrers' strike 72, 73, 74 ; antiNF rally, Hyde, 1975 -

(where we learnt to fight back - cricket boxes protected lads' nuts ; fencing protectors protected lasses' breasts ; wellies were stuffed with newspaper against back-heels from bogies ; and hat-pins dipped in dogshit retaliated. Oh, and Anderton nearly got his head kicked in cos he was in civvies.)

Grunwick picket line, 1978.

The Romans did it (social control) with free bread and free circuses.

This lot do it with unlimited football ; unlimited Corrie ; unlimited ale and unlimited nookie.

Weep, England, weep.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 07:30 AM

Oh dear Richard! Such a well worn old cliche.
However, my time in the Army left me with several qualities, amongst which is a willingness not only to put forward my own point of view, but to allow others to do the same.

So, which of the picket lines would you have been on?
The Builder's Strike, where Trade Union thugs, including a former NF thug called Ricky Tomlinson, tried to impose compulsory union membership onto an unwilling workforce by the use of violence and intimidation?

The same was attempted at Grunwick where the majority of workers in a small company, who did not wish to become union members, were terrorised by more socialist thugs in an effort to force a Closed Shop onto them.

Mrs. Thatcher's one overwhelming sin, so far as the Left is concerned, is that she, for a short time at least, turned back the tide of creaping Socialism, delaying it long enough for the empty shell that was the Worker's Paradise of the USSR to collapse under the weight of it's own beaurocracy, and thus show that Socialism is still the empty promise it always was.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 07:49 AM

Bryn, I do not doubt your sincerity and do have some respect for it, but at the time of your political activism, what was your opinion and that of your compatriots, of the USSR and Communist China under Chairman Mao?

Some of my abiding memories of that period were the number of Left Wing activists who were so fond of quoting the works of Mao whilst trying to overthrow Western Democracy. Was it at the LSE or North London Polytechnic where a student claimed on TV that she had no need for further study as she had studied the Thoughts of Mao Tse Tung and thus knew the truth?

It never ceases to amaze me that intelligent and compassionate people were so taken in by the Communist system, even after the truth became known about the oppression in the USSR during the time of Stalin. Even after the illegal crushing of the Hungarian uprising in '56 and the suppression of the Prague Spring in '68.

At the time your compatriots in the Left were lauding Mao and subscribing to his personality cult, his Government had already instigated the first Tiananmen Square massacre and were still slaughtering their opponents as the Cultural Revolution dragged on towards it's close.

Maggie may be criticised as the person who unleashed a huge tide of personal greed on the UK, but one only needs to look back 10 years beyond her, to the Snouts in the Trough attitude of the Donkey Jacket Trades Unionism then prevelant to see the falsity of such accusations.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:10 AM

Sapper, you want to read some history if you think that was Grunwick. A bunch of fascists opressing Asian women.

Look at the injury rate in building work now.

If workers are going to get fair wages and conditions, they must have the powers to balance those of the bosses. The problem with the shift in the Phillips curve (presumably, as a keen economist you do know about it?) in the 70s was that both sides could only ratchet up.

Is there any reason workers should not be fairly paid? It seems to be one of your central tenets that they should be kept in poverty and follow orders. Since they are human beings I cannot go along with that. There is no justice in the disparity in wealth that we see today. The only defence is strong (but fair, and by and large they are fairer than capitalists) unions.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:20 AM

At Grunwick only about 1/3 of the workforce went on strike. Should the other 2/3 have been forced to join a union to satisfy that minority?
Did the strikers have the right to prevent the 2/3 who wanted to work from doing so?
If only 1/3 of the workforce were on strike, were the conditions REALLY that bad, or is it yet more Left Wing rhetoric and propaganda?

Why do you get the impression that I believe workers should be kept in poverty and should not be allowed to form unions? As a Tory I strongly believe in the right of free association and as such not only accept, but fully support the right to belong to a Trade Union. But equally, I also strongly believe that membership MUST be voluntary and not coerced as it was in so many industries during the '70s.

I also believe that, during an industrial dispute, those who wish to take strike action should be free to do so. However, this must also be ballanced by allowing those who wish to work and ignore the dispute to go to work without fear of intimidation or violence.

Do you disagree with that right?

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:28 PM

"Weep, England, weep."

England has been weeping for way too long. The United Kingdom has too, or the Disunited Kingdom, as it now is. The hatred that has been raging through this country for over 20 years now, needs to be turned into something far more positive.

We've *done* the hatred.

Why don't we now start to try love instead?

Not only that, but whey don't we all stop bleating about our politicians, and simply recognise, albeit with great sorrow, that they're mostly a bunch of completely selfish bastards, no matter which 'team' they are in...and start to demand honour from those who seek to lead us?

We should have been out on the streets years ago.

I recall a few years back, hearing an interview with a French journalist. She lived over here at the time, and she was dumbstruck at how much we 'put up with' over here. She said that in France the feeling is very different. They elect their politicians to lead their country, to do the best they can for their country, and if they don't, then the French people take to the streets in protest.

I think we have a great deal to learn from that.

Way past time to stop wailing "It's all Maggie's fault!" or "Bloody Blair!"

It is *our* country and we are its Keepers and Protectors...

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:45 PM

No, Sapper. The Grunwick management refused to recognise the union. It wanted to keep wages down and discriminate against union members. The workers who wanted to go in were not in the majority, and those who did want to go in did so because of wage slavery. Where were you when it happened? Writing the right-wing propaganda, or reading the Sun? Grunwick was an indefensible example of union-bashing.

Appaloosa Lady - love a conservative, get fucked by a Cecil Parkinson clone.

Aux barricades! It is surely time.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:49 PM

I know Wikipedia is not always right but this seems reasonable

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:52 PM

"Richard, I share your concern. The tory b*****ds will probably legalise fox hunting again, as well."

They don't need to. Every hunt in this country is carrying on as normal because of a loophole in the (completely useless) legisation which means that as long as they have a bird of prey with them (and the bird does not even need to be flown), the hunt is legal.

Sapper, what about the employers who actively discourage union membership?

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:55 PM

"Appaloosa Lady - love a conservative, get fucked by a Cecil Parkinson clone."


Richard, who's 'loving' anyone on here?

All I see coming from you is hatred.

When I listened to John Tams talking about the Miner's Strike, all I heard was sorrow, a deep compassion and a strong determination within him to explain the terrible hurt that was caused to so many. But John teaches through gentleness and intelligence, not anger and hatred all the time.

It's time to move on. The Militant Left, to me, is as bad as the Militant Right.

It is time for a Militant Middle, one that no longer sees 'class', but people. One that has no 'side' but is purely interested in this country and her people...and whose Militancy is purely channelled into a determination to keep hatred far away from this country. We've had way too much of it for over two decades.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:09 PM

Gosh what a lot of bile and hatred there is in this thread!
Why do so many idealists live in the past? All busy blaming those that went before, and not one new idea amongst the lot of you.
Yes we've all suffered under various hues of political leaders, and we will do again, we are doing so NOW, and big time too. However none of them were ALL bad, and certainly none of them were ALL good.
What you gain on the swings, you lose on the roundabouts, it can't be all swings, or all roundabouts.
As for all the hot air that has been wasted on fox hunting, well! Why on earth does this silly pastime attract such energy and bile from people? If half that energy was put into something constructive, the world would be a better place.
You may as well save your breath to cool your coffee folks, only unless and until we come up with a better form of government than we have now, will anything change.
More to the point encouraging people to have less children, at least that would reduce the drain on this world's finite resources.

G.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:14 PM

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Ruth Archer - PM
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:52 PM

"Richard, I share your concern. The tory b*****ds will probably legalise fox hunting again, as well."

They don't need to. Every hunt in this country is carrying on as normal because of a loophole in the (completely useless) legisation which means that as long as they have a bird of prey with them (and the bird does not even need to be flown), the hunt is legal.

Good. Well done the hunters!!

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:21 PM

Wrong, sapper (again!). I know a couple of hunts round us that have packed in. Hooray! I've nothing against dogs catching things you can eat on a one-to-one basis, especally the local nob's pheasants (oh, alright, poaching - don't do it myself, of course!!!!!) but I just hate 'the unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable'.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:27 PM

there may be a couple that have packed it in, leveller, but in Leicestershire/Rutland/Northants, the strongest hunting counties, they've all carried on.

Some hunts have bought birds such as Golden Eagles and didn't know how to handle them, and flew them during the hunt - only to watch the bird be torn to pieces by the hounds, along with the fox.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:33 PM

The majority of workers Richard? What was it, about 180 on strike out of a workforce of nearly 500? Oh, but I forget. non-Socialist do not count and their opinions are to be ignored!

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:38 PM

'Giok', as well as the bile, there are some arguments here, too.

I answered a questiion of Sapper's, enlarged on why working people just aren't going to do anything, explained their attitude at length with no hatred, just sadness.

The consequence? Whay I usually find when one makes decent, level, maybe unanswerable points outside normal agendas - nothing.

I usually find if you make difficult points, a standard "response" is to ignore totally.

As us therapists think, ah, not ready to hear that yet.

See, no hatred. Not even needed. Just a load of waiting.


   Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:42 PM

I'm still waiting to hear from Sapper what he thinks of employers who actively discourage union membership (as in, if you want a job, you'd better not joing the union). There are a lot more of these about than there are unions "intimidating" employees into membership.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:51 PM

Taken from another site:-

"Over the succeeding days they were joined by others until by the end of August there were 137 strikers out of a workforce of around 480. The strikers duly formed their own Grunwick Strike Committee (GSC) and announced that they would not return to work unless and until Grunwick recognised their newly adopted trade union. In response George Ward declared that the strikers should consider themselves dismissed and simply hired some more workers."

So when did 137 out of 480 become a majority?

The problem is that, because the Left suffered a well deserved defeat at Grunwick, ANYONE concerned with the other side must be demonisedand made to appear sub-human if possible. I think Richards ealier hyperbole about the fascists opposing the unions says it all.

However, when one does consider the true fascists like Franco's Spain as well as Nazi Germany and the failed Socialist state of the USSR, it does make me wonder what the difference is between them.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 02:10 PM

Ruth, you really must take off those Socialist blinkers and actually read what people write.
A quote from an earlier post:-
"As a Tory I strongly believe in the right of free association and as such not only accept, but fully support the right to belong to a Trade Union. But equally, I also strongly believe that membership MUST be voluntary and not coerced as it was in so many industries during the '70s."

So obviously, if an employer were so crass as to sack anyone simply for union membership, then I would hope he gets taken to the cleaners via the Industrial Tribunal for unfair dismissal.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 02:34 PM

After all every worker unionised means more funds for the Labour [sic] Party. What organisation worth it's salt would turn it's back on more income? I mean anybody that would accept a donation from Bernie Ecclestone when a ban on smoking advertising was in the wind, wouldn't baulk at the money from someone who is a member of an organisation because he/she has to be, rather than wants to be.
No I'm not against trade unions, but I am against hypocrisy, which habit appears to be the besetting sin of all governments, but more so the present occupiers of the government benches.
G

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 02:53 PM

Just dropped by to look at what "Appaloosa Lady / madlizziecornish" was up to (blathering tripe as usual) only to find someone else spouting the usual 30-year-old lies about exploited film processing workers and building trade unionists fighting the lump.

Before "sapper" drops himself down an even deeper hole, let me explain that I covered (in shifts with other reporters) the Shrewsbury 24 trial at Mold Crown Court and that I took the newsroom call from Jack Dromey who was down at Brent Trades Council advising the Grunwick strikers and subsequently was present on many an early morning picket.

Each of these workers' actions in the cause of decent working conditions were lost because employers hung on to what they had at the expense of working people about whom they gave not a toss.

Asian (and other) women are still brutally exploited at dismal workplaces the length and breadth of the land. And building workers are still subjected to dangerous and inhuman conditions for a pittance. Neither have the option in most instances of fighting back for their rights because these have been ever more eroded and the power of unions stamped on.

Ever considered WHY it's not always a majority that is able to stand up and fight? They're too scared, and they can't, in most cases, afford to. Victorian children in blacking factories or up chimneys had more rights and opportunities to speak out for improvement and justice.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:07 PM

so Dianne, who was the worker who lost an eye when attacked by the thugs in the flying picket? We know the person who organised the attack, but not the victim.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:56 PM

"
After all every worker unionised means more funds for the Labour [sic] Party. "

This isn't necessarily true. When you join a union, you're given the choice whether to pledge part of your subs to the Labour Party or not - at least you could with my union, which is a very big one.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM

Warning. Yet again no bile in this post anyway.
As I say elsewhere, the unions have been cowed and submissive for a quarter of a century, and look what's happening to the economy.

We'll take off our socialist blinkers, if you take off your conservative ones, sapper.

Deal?

Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:06 PM

Autolycus, the UK ecconomy is in shite state because of the mess the Socialist Labour party has got us into.

as for wearing blinkers, I am not the one trying to rewrite history!

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:22 PM

"UK ecconomy is in shite state because of the mess the Socialist Labour party has got us into."

You what?!!!

One would have to be pretty far to the right to consider New Labour the "Socialist Labour Party".

Surely it's the American economy which is currently dragging the rest of the world down with it. Any dodgy practices replicated by UK banks were certainly not committed in the spirit of Socialism.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:24 PM

"Socialist Labour party"

When was that then? Somehow missed that.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:30 PM

"One would have to be pretty far to the right to consider New Labour the "Socialist Labour Party".

Why? Just because it is not "Your" sort of socialist party does not make it less socialist. Given that the Left has always been renowned for it's internicene warfare, this is only what one would expect.

I suppose you will now try to tell me that the USSR, despite over 50y of support from the British Labour Movement until it's demise, was not really Socialist!

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:31 PM

Must admit Ruth that the current mess the Socialists have got us into has been exacerbated by the US.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:34 PM

I don't remember when they changed the law, but it wasn't awfully long ago that it was changed to allow a union member to ask that the part of his/her dues that go to the Labour Party should instead go to a charity, or some such organisation. However I believe that he may NOT elect to send that part of his dues to another political party.
So that's all very fair and equal then isn't it?

G

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:50 PM

Autolycus, the UK ecconomy is in shite state because of the mess the Socialist Labour party has got us into.




Oh, so nothing to do with the US sub-prime fiasco, Northern Rock's selling practices, and the domino effect consequent upon a closely-interlocking system then?

Everything to do with dastardly unions then? Or immigrants? Or benefit cheats?

Nothing to do with the estimated $17 TRILLION currently in tax havens thru tax evasion ?


I think it would be gentlemanly of you to give chapter-and-verse aka evidence, for saying the UK economy is in a shite state. ( I mean, anyone can make assertions)


   Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:53 PM

Goik, The law is that a menber of a trade union is assumed to agree to pay a "Political Levy," in effect a donation to the Labour Party, unless he signs a declaration that he wishes to "opt out."
After signing such a declaration, it can take up to a year before it takes effect.

There is no necessity to donate the levy to charity.

As the member has to be a positive "Opt Out," there are a lot of members who do not support the Socialists who are still paying simply because they have either not been advised or simple inertia.

At least the situation is better than it was during the period of the now gone and very much unlamented Closed Shop when belonging to a Trade Union was often a condition of being able to get a job in the first place.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:57 PM

"Oh, so nothing to do with the US sub-prime fiasco, Northern Rock's selling practices, and the domino effect consequent upon a closely-interlocking system then?"

Whilst exacerbated by the sub-prime fiasco, the Northern Rock farce was allowed to develop by the policies of our current Socialist Prime Minister.
I just that God that Maggie clipped the Unions' wings otherwise we'd be in an even worst mess than we were in in '79.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:16 PM

No evidence then. You're not a gentleman, then, sir?

The unions used to be the whole problem, Maggie clipped their wings, and we still have problems. Conclusion?

Your last was a manifest attempt to re-write history.

The responsibility for the present crisis is with the banks, and their greed. Even they aren't saying it was the government's fault.

And , true get-the-government-off-our-backs conservatives as they are, they're expecting the dreaded government to come to their aid. The useless,useless government. Suddenly it has a value. Hurrah.

Angry? Me? Nah.


Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 06:59 PM

Wrong again Sapper - the counts you have do not include the workers who got sacked.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 07:01 PM

Oh, and wrong again Sapper, the "New Labour" party has not even been nominally socialist since losing Clause 4.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 07:02 PM

Hatred? You betcha! I grew up in a wonderful country in the 50s and 60s, and I saw capitalism destroy it all.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 07:39 AM

Richard, yet again you have it wrong. The workers who went on strike WERE the one who were sacked.

Click here

"Over the succeeding days they were joined by others until by the end of August there were 137 strikers out of a workforce of around 480. The strikers duly formed their own Grunwick Strike Committee (GSC) and announced that they would not return to work unless and until Grunwick recognised their newly adopted trade union. In response George Ward declared that the strikers should consider themselves dismissed and simply hired some more workers."

So when did 137 out of 480 become a majority? Or don't a majority, when they go against the Socialist dogma of the day, count?

As for New Labour NOT being Socialist, surely is this another case of "Socialism is what the Socialist says it is?" There are even so called Socialist who, despite over 50years of mutual support, now try to deny that the USSR was even Socialist in the first place!

I believe the theory goes, "Socialism is the perfect state. If true Socialism were to be implimented, then it could not fail to succeed. Therefore, ANY so called Socialist state that does fail, could not really have been Socialist in the first place."

As for the '50s and '60s being destroyed by capitalism, bollocks! Donkey Jacket Trades Unionism destroyed more jobs than any capitalist. In the face of competition from overseas many of the heavy industries had to reorganise or go under.
A prime example of one that didn't being the shipyards, destroyed by demarkation disputes that saw walk outs over issues as trivial, as in the case of Cammel Laird, as who "twanged" the chalk string when marking out a piece of steel plate!

I am not trying to say that Capitalism is perfect, far from it, there have been some horrendous mistakes made. But the relationship between workers and bosses must be one of mutual respect and trust. This relationship can not be built up in an atmosphere poisoned by Marxist lies and dogma.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 12:08 PM

Nor by bosses
not giving a shit about workers,
thinking them all to be near-layabouts who the bosses have to treat like children,
stealing their good ideas about work,
thinking their employees are inferiors or idiots (who it's no use explain stuff to),
highly unwilling to let them share in improvements in the business (employees being thought of mostly as merely costs on the balance sheet, to be kept down),
not nurturing and bringing on ability

et cetera.

Not that I think any of this is universal. It's not negligible either.


And stiiiiiiiiiiillllllllllllllll no evidence, hard scientific evidence for the state of the UK economy. None.

A conservative is someone who a) tries to frighten you, and then b) rells you who's to blame for it.

Your "definition" of Socialism is bleedin'-obviously a conservative, non-objective definition. Try the dictionary. Gives a different one from yours. Wonder why. Perhaps those people at Oxford and Chambers and Websters and all the others are misbegotten commies

Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 11:25 AM

i Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82 - PM
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:06 PM

Autolycus, the UK ecconomy is in shite state


On Any Questions (BBC radio, 4 public figures answering questions from the audience),
Ruth Lea, the well known socialist - sorry, that should have read "the well-known conservative economist, now at the Institute for Directors" (obviously socialist), said that consumer spending was currently rising, unemployment falling, and she didn't expect a recession in the UK economy, just a slowing.

   Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 08:38 PM

And just what hard evidence did she adduce, Ivor, to convince you that her interpretation was of greater merit than Sapper's?

After all it was you that rubbished his opinion without adducing any hard evidence yourself, then had the cheek to say he was not a gentleman.

Don T.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 05:43 AM

Way too much hatred in this thread, same as out here on the streets of the UK.

We truly need to find another way to get this country back on it's feet. And I'm talking spiritually here, not politicially, because until the divisive hatred is turned into non-divisie love, it won't matter WHO is in 'power'.

The British people have to heal themselves first, before they can heal their country. And we can't do that whilst we continue to see each other as 'class' or 'them and us'

There is only 'WE' and 'WE' need to move forward, together.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 05:10 PM

i From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 08:38 PM

And just what hard evidence did she adduce, Ivor, to convince you that her interpretation was of greater merit than Sapper's?

After all it was you that rubbished his opinion without adducing any hard evidence yourself, then had the cheek to say he was not a gentleman.

Don T.

Well, Don, I don't know what you know about Ruth Lea. I know from oft hearing her on the Beeb that she is fairly off to the right, and has been Chief Economist for Lehmann Brothers and similar, and is currently at the Institute of Directors (i.e.the Directors of large companies and corporations.)

If anyone is going to disparage the state of the UK economy, she'd be an excellent choice to do so. As I said, she said otherwise; and thereby took the Labour government member of the prog. panel by surprise with her optimistic view.

Consequently if someone in her position is not sharing Sapper's view of the economy when I would expect her to, no problem, then I'm led to believe that she knows stuff I don't.

As for 'rubbishing' Sapper's view, I was pointing to situations we're all aware of (sub-prime, Northern Rock etc)to explain the difficulties some people are in. So I offered evidence for the difficulties). I was expecting Sapper to counter with evidence for his own assertion. There was none except to say that my evidence was really down to the government. And he offered no evidence, data, prooof at all for his opinion of the state of the UK economy.

So i think I have offered evidence for doubting the truth of his statement.

Guest Appaloosa Lady,

I don't hate anyone here or anywhere.

i can be annoyed by what someone says without disliking that someone in the slightest. I distinguish between the view and the opinion-holder, no prob.

I look forward, too, to a time when it's "WE". A situation I, too, look forward to.

While we have separate organisations for directors (IoD), business (CBI), and working people (TUC); and when there are tax havens and tax exiles; and other things; then we might start to be able to talk of "WE". And when we don't have a party-for-businee and a party-for-working-people.

While we all have international investors who move their money about the world in a way independant of the interests of any but themselves (no "WE" there), then I, alas, see little prospect of "WE".

Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 05:51 PM

Fair enough Ivor, I wasn't getting at you personally though, so please forgive me if it came across like that. I was simply commenting 'generally' on some posts in this thread.

I just feel sad at times that this country seems to be hellbent on staying so divided, that's all.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 07:18 PM

No problem. At heart I'm with you.

What I'm trying to get at is that the divisivenesss is sort of inherent in the socio-political system, is compounded by our history, and is seemingly quite immune to being affected deeply by the spiritual.

it is also a blame culture, it's alsways someoneelse's fault, because taking one's responsibility is too daunting, frightening, misunderstood, just plain uncomfortable.

The whole dispute runs so very deep. And the people of the UK are a no-nonsense, earthy, practical, pragmatic people who change at the speed of a glacier.

And every few years, people ask about any given matter 'We were arguing about this years ago, and we're still having the same argument.

The great spiritual leaders don't seem to have made vast progress in 2500 years.

   Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:13 AM

Unfortunately, we still seem to be suffering the Thatcher 'There's no such thing as society' syndrome, people seem to have taken it to heart!

The sooner people wake up to the damage we are doing to this planet a seriously try to live sustainably, the better!

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 03:40 PM

PS

A representative, not of employers but of British manufacturers, said on radio 4,BBC, this am, that British manufacturers are feeling things getting better in a way they didn't two or three years ago.

Manufacterers. Think things improving. Here in UK.

An ex-member of the committee that sets the bank rate said this morning that, despite the fact that the oil price has shot up 2 (or 3?) times recently, inflation is being maintained at a pretty low and steady level.

The UK economy in the shit. I dawnt fink saw.


   Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 10:36 PM

Heard on Irish radio this morning that 1/4 of population living below poverty level, wouldn't mind betting that things not much different in UK!

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 02:38 AM

I agree, Jim.

That's one method for keeping the economy healthy - reliing on vast numbers in 'putting-up-with-it-meekly' mode.


Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 05:49 AM

I should like to put on record that I have never read, nor ever wished to read, the thoughts of Chairman Mao ; any works of Lenin ; any works of Marx ; or any work of any "recognised" 'Left Wing philosopher or writer, with the sole exception of Gramschi, which I read for pleasure, not political education.

My actions as a much younger man derived from my conviction that

"This isn't fucking good enough and it's time and well time that ten thousand times ten thousand people said so !"

Sorry, Sapper, I had, and have, no 'Socialist compatriots'. My actions came from a gut feeling that what was on offer was nowhere near good enough.

May the gods help us - no-one else can, and I'm too old for active demonstration, these days. The writing was on the wall when I was hissed at Folk Club for singing "The Band played Waltzing Matilda" at the time of the Falklands thingy.

That said, my BA dissertation was on 'Worker Directors and the Bullock Report'.

Does that satisfy you as to my Left Wing credentials ?

While there is enough ale to keep us addled; enough football to keep us away from the barricades ; Coronation Street every night and twice on Sunday, and plenty of nookie, the Right will hold the reins as it always has.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 06:47 AM

'Autolycus'. if things are so great, how come so many banking institutions are in deep s**t?

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 02:57 PM

Jim, I didn't say things were great; I suggested that the UK economy is not as Sapper made out.

You might address your question to the Institute of Directors (or at least Ruth Lea there - she's no friend of the Labour Government) or to the Manufacturer's organisation. They seem to know things that you, Sapper and I don't.

I'd say, what the evidence that "so many banking institutions are in deep s**t? "

And that a big reason currently why all is not dire is that the Government won't allow a major bank to go under, as they've demonstrated with Northern Rock. Despite the run on it, it's still worth billions.

And another coupla questions.

How come a financial blue chip can lose nearly all its value built over 80+ years in 40+ hours?

how come banks have all of a sussen become too suspicious of each other to lend to each other?

No wonder people in the mainstream are so mistrustful, period. A set-up to drive people into me versus everybody. Tho we curiously have to trust each other for safe food, regular safe water, et cetera. Thank goodness.


    Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 04:21 PM

Sapper - the ones sacked did not get counted in the figures for the workers in favour of and opposed to the strike. The figures only included current employees. Do you understand?

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 04:52 PM

Corrigendum (?) [I did german not Latin].

Not 'sussen'; 'sudden'.

Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 08:53 AM

I had a thought last evening which put the shits up me :

Ted Heath was to the Left of Blair and Brown.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 09:49 AM

Sorry, Bryn, most of us (on both sides of the divide, apart from good privates who believe what the officers tell them) knew that already by 1998.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 10:38 AM

Don't remember you telling me, though.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 05:38 AM

I'm still looking forward greatly to the evidence that the UK economy is allegedly in poor shape.

Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:05 AM

Haven't you seen the cost of flour/oil/mortgages in the last year?

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:19 AM

And now, I see on another thread, rice and cooking oil are under severe pressure.

Is it the same people who have manipulated the banks/mortgages into a global crisis?

Maybe David Icke has an answer?

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:20 AM

well, after a bloody knackering week of nights up in Scotland (why do cleaners in hotels make so much noise doing the rooms next door???) earning the taxes to pay for all these unproductive Government employed drones, I'm feeling awake enough to come back to this.

autolycus
"And stiiiiiiiiiiillllllllllllllll no evidence, hard scientific evidence for the state of the UK economy. None."

Since when was ecconomics a bloody science? Mind you, considering Socialists seem to believe in the snake oil of something called "Political Science" it is only to be expected.

Incidently, the Phillip's Curve, since it failed to predict or account for the '70s "Stagflation," one of the results of the policies followed by Wilson's Socialist government, has largely been discredited.

My opinions on the state of the ecconomy lie in my own, personal observations. These include the farce of Northern Rock. not just the collapse, but the borrow and spend conditions this Labour Party, socialist government have allowed to develop.

They include the lies, twisted truths and doublespeak of claiming they have reduced the basic rate of income tax whilst forgetting to mention the increases in tax paid, particularly by those workers who can least afford it, caused by their abolition of the "starter" 10p rate.

My observations include the so called low inflation rate that includes the expensive "once in a while purchases" imported from low cost ecconomies but seems to ignore the effects of energy and food inflation. True inflation is probably 2 to 2½ times the figure spouted by this current Socialist Government.

From my observations I am certainly not confident that the UK's ecconomy is in a fit state to weather the impending likely collapse of the Dollar.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:37 AM

Jim, you have obviously never read the interview with Woman's Own magazine in which Maggie used that phrase.

Click here to read an extract from the interview.

One of the themes she was developing during that interview was "What is Society?"
As part of that theme she was trying to dispell the idea that "Society" is a is some huge, monolithic structure, but rather that Society is us.
She was explaining that how well it works depends not only on how much PERSONAL responsibility WE are willing to accept for our own actions and wellbeing, but how much personal responsibility we take to assist those less well off than ourselves.
The use of that little snippet is a prime example of the way Socialists seem to delight in twisting words and using distorted truths to tell lies.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:40 AM

i how much personal responsibility we take to assist those less well off than ourselves.

I trust Mrs.T. took full personal responsibility for all those she assisted who were less well-off than her.




Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:51 AM

If interest rates rose into double-figures, if unemployment rose to 4 or 5 million, if we had to have a 3-day week, I'd regard those as hard evidence examples of the economy in trouble.

it's not THAT difficult.

It's also not that difficult to chuck assertions around, based merely on personal observation (mixed with a tiny smidgeon of prejudice). I do it all the time :-)

Not to mention obviously politically skewed "definitions"; a thought worth bearing in mind by anyone who thinks definitions are non-political.

Ivor



   Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:50 AM

"The use of that little snippet is a prime example of the way Socialists seem to delight in twisting words and using distorted truths to tell lies."

Something which a right wing reactionary would, of course, never ever do - like using sweeping statements. LOL!

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:57 AM

The way things are going, it wont be that long!

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:05 AM

Anonymous guest above was me.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:33 PM

In half an hour on 2 (UK), hour-long prog asking if the super-rich are bleeding the rest of us dry.

   Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 08:35 AM

See this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2008/03/we_lose_in_greed_game.html

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 10:18 PM

Don't you get it? Like Peston's analysis of the greed game, the only people who suffered in Thatcher's game were people who were not like her.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 06:20 AM

What goes around, comes around.

The second dose of "negative equity" in property in 35 years.

Anyone still want to assert that the UK economy ISN'T shite ?

Two friends bought for £90K in May 1992.

In August 1992 they couldn't have sold for £60,000.

What goes around, comes around.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:00 AM

I want a lot of solid evidence, a lot, that it is shite, because British manufacturers are more upobeat than 5 years ago, and Ruth Lea, solidly on the fairly far right, doesn't think it is shite.

Evidence.

Not thinly substantiated assertions.

Which is dead easy to do.

Historians, philosophers, even le most people wouldn't find what's been offered so far any thing like proof.

Ivor