UK betrayed too.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:00 AM

I want a lot of solid evidence, a lot, that it is shite, because British manufacturers are more upobeat than 5 years ago, and Ruth Lea, solidly on the fairly far right, doesn't think it is shite.

Evidence.

Not thinly substantiated assertions.

Which is dead easy to do.

Historians, philosophers, even le most people wouldn't find what's been offered so far any thing like proof.

Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 06:20 AM

What goes around, comes around.

The second dose of "negative equity" in property in 35 years.

Anyone still want to assert that the UK economy ISN'T shite ?

Two friends bought for £90K in May 1992.

In August 1992 they couldn't have sold for £60,000.

What goes around, comes around.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 10:18 PM

Don't you get it? Like Peston's analysis of the greed game, the only people who suffered in Thatcher's game were people who were not like her.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 08:35 AM

See this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2008/03/we_lose_in_greed_game.html

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:33 PM

In half an hour on 2 (UK), hour-long prog asking if the super-rich are bleeding the rest of us dry.

   Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:05 AM

Anonymous guest above was me.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:57 AM

The way things are going, it wont be that long!

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:50 AM

"The use of that little snippet is a prime example of the way Socialists seem to delight in twisting words and using distorted truths to tell lies."

Something which a right wing reactionary would, of course, never ever do - like using sweeping statements. LOL!

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:51 AM

If interest rates rose into double-figures, if unemployment rose to 4 or 5 million, if we had to have a 3-day week, I'd regard those as hard evidence examples of the economy in trouble.

it's not THAT difficult.

It's also not that difficult to chuck assertions around, based merely on personal observation (mixed with a tiny smidgeon of prejudice). I do it all the time :-)

Not to mention obviously politically skewed "definitions"; a thought worth bearing in mind by anyone who thinks definitions are non-political.

Ivor



   Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:40 AM

i how much personal responsibility we take to assist those less well off than ourselves.

I trust Mrs.T. took full personal responsibility for all those she assisted who were less well-off than her.




Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:37 AM

Jim, you have obviously never read the interview with Woman's Own magazine in which Maggie used that phrase.

Click here to read an extract from the interview.

One of the themes she was developing during that interview was "What is Society?"
As part of that theme she was trying to dispell the idea that "Society" is a is some huge, monolithic structure, but rather that Society is us.
She was explaining that how well it works depends not only on how much PERSONAL responsibility WE are willing to accept for our own actions and wellbeing, but how much personal responsibility we take to assist those less well off than ourselves.
The use of that little snippet is a prime example of the way Socialists seem to delight in twisting words and using distorted truths to tell lies.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:20 AM

well, after a bloody knackering week of nights up in Scotland (why do cleaners in hotels make so much noise doing the rooms next door???) earning the taxes to pay for all these unproductive Government employed drones, I'm feeling awake enough to come back to this.

autolycus
"And stiiiiiiiiiiillllllllllllllll no evidence, hard scientific evidence for the state of the UK economy. None."

Since when was ecconomics a bloody science? Mind you, considering Socialists seem to believe in the snake oil of something called "Political Science" it is only to be expected.

Incidently, the Phillip's Curve, since it failed to predict or account for the '70s "Stagflation," one of the results of the policies followed by Wilson's Socialist government, has largely been discredited.

My opinions on the state of the ecconomy lie in my own, personal observations. These include the farce of Northern Rock. not just the collapse, but the borrow and spend conditions this Labour Party, socialist government have allowed to develop.

They include the lies, twisted truths and doublespeak of claiming they have reduced the basic rate of income tax whilst forgetting to mention the increases in tax paid, particularly by those workers who can least afford it, caused by their abolition of the "starter" 10p rate.

My observations include the so called low inflation rate that includes the expensive "once in a while purchases" imported from low cost ecconomies but seems to ignore the effects of energy and food inflation. True inflation is probably 2 to 2½ times the figure spouted by this current Socialist Government.

From my observations I am certainly not confident that the UK's ecconomy is in a fit state to weather the impending likely collapse of the Dollar.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:19 AM

And now, I see on another thread, rice and cooking oil are under severe pressure.

Is it the same people who have manipulated the banks/mortgages into a global crisis?

Maybe David Icke has an answer?

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:05 AM

Haven't you seen the cost of flour/oil/mortgages in the last year?

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 05:38 AM

I'm still looking forward greatly to the evidence that the UK economy is allegedly in poor shape.

Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 10:38 AM

Don't remember you telling me, though.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 09:49 AM

Sorry, Bryn, most of us (on both sides of the divide, apart from good privates who believe what the officers tell them) knew that already by 1998.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 08:53 AM

I had a thought last evening which put the shits up me :

Ted Heath was to the Left of Blair and Brown.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 04:52 PM

Corrigendum (?) [I did german not Latin].

Not 'sussen'; 'sudden'.

Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 04:21 PM

Sapper - the ones sacked did not get counted in the figures for the workers in favour of and opposed to the strike. The figures only included current employees. Do you understand?

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 02:57 PM

Jim, I didn't say things were great; I suggested that the UK economy is not as Sapper made out.

You might address your question to the Institute of Directors (or at least Ruth Lea there - she's no friend of the Labour Government) or to the Manufacturer's organisation. They seem to know things that you, Sapper and I don't.

I'd say, what the evidence that "so many banking institutions are in deep s**t? "

And that a big reason currently why all is not dire is that the Government won't allow a major bank to go under, as they've demonstrated with Northern Rock. Despite the run on it, it's still worth billions.

And another coupla questions.

How come a financial blue chip can lose nearly all its value built over 80+ years in 40+ hours?

how come banks have all of a sussen become too suspicious of each other to lend to each other?

No wonder people in the mainstream are so mistrustful, period. A set-up to drive people into me versus everybody. Tho we curiously have to trust each other for safe food, regular safe water, et cetera. Thank goodness.


    Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 06:47 AM

'Autolycus'. if things are so great, how come so many banking institutions are in deep s**t?

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 05:49 AM

I should like to put on record that I have never read, nor ever wished to read, the thoughts of Chairman Mao ; any works of Lenin ; any works of Marx ; or any work of any "recognised" 'Left Wing philosopher or writer, with the sole exception of Gramschi, which I read for pleasure, not political education.

My actions as a much younger man derived from my conviction that

"This isn't fucking good enough and it's time and well time that ten thousand times ten thousand people said so !"

Sorry, Sapper, I had, and have, no 'Socialist compatriots'. My actions came from a gut feeling that what was on offer was nowhere near good enough.

May the gods help us - no-one else can, and I'm too old for active demonstration, these days. The writing was on the wall when I was hissed at Folk Club for singing "The Band played Waltzing Matilda" at the time of the Falklands thingy.

That said, my BA dissertation was on 'Worker Directors and the Bullock Report'.

Does that satisfy you as to my Left Wing credentials ?

While there is enough ale to keep us addled; enough football to keep us away from the barricades ; Coronation Street every night and twice on Sunday, and plenty of nookie, the Right will hold the reins as it always has.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 02:38 AM

I agree, Jim.

That's one method for keeping the economy healthy - reliing on vast numbers in 'putting-up-with-it-meekly' mode.


Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 10:36 PM

Heard on Irish radio this morning that 1/4 of population living below poverty level, wouldn't mind betting that things not much different in UK!

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 03:40 PM

PS

A representative, not of employers but of British manufacturers, said on radio 4,BBC, this am, that British manufacturers are feeling things getting better in a way they didn't two or three years ago.

Manufacterers. Think things improving. Here in UK.

An ex-member of the committee that sets the bank rate said this morning that, despite the fact that the oil price has shot up 2 (or 3?) times recently, inflation is being maintained at a pretty low and steady level.

The UK economy in the shit. I dawnt fink saw.


   Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:13 AM

Unfortunately, we still seem to be suffering the Thatcher 'There's no such thing as society' syndrome, people seem to have taken it to heart!

The sooner people wake up to the damage we are doing to this planet a seriously try to live sustainably, the better!

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 07:18 PM

No problem. At heart I'm with you.

What I'm trying to get at is that the divisivenesss is sort of inherent in the socio-political system, is compounded by our history, and is seemingly quite immune to being affected deeply by the spiritual.

it is also a blame culture, it's alsways someoneelse's fault, because taking one's responsibility is too daunting, frightening, misunderstood, just plain uncomfortable.

The whole dispute runs so very deep. And the people of the UK are a no-nonsense, earthy, practical, pragmatic people who change at the speed of a glacier.

And every few years, people ask about any given matter 'We were arguing about this years ago, and we're still having the same argument.

The great spiritual leaders don't seem to have made vast progress in 2500 years.

   Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 05:51 PM

Fair enough Ivor, I wasn't getting at you personally though, so please forgive me if it came across like that. I was simply commenting 'generally' on some posts in this thread.

I just feel sad at times that this country seems to be hellbent on staying so divided, that's all.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 05:10 PM

i From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 08:38 PM

And just what hard evidence did she adduce, Ivor, to convince you that her interpretation was of greater merit than Sapper's?

After all it was you that rubbished his opinion without adducing any hard evidence yourself, then had the cheek to say he was not a gentleman.

Don T.

Well, Don, I don't know what you know about Ruth Lea. I know from oft hearing her on the Beeb that she is fairly off to the right, and has been Chief Economist for Lehmann Brothers and similar, and is currently at the Institute of Directors (i.e.the Directors of large companies and corporations.)

If anyone is going to disparage the state of the UK economy, she'd be an excellent choice to do so. As I said, she said otherwise; and thereby took the Labour government member of the prog. panel by surprise with her optimistic view.

Consequently if someone in her position is not sharing Sapper's view of the economy when I would expect her to, no problem, then I'm led to believe that she knows stuff I don't.

As for 'rubbishing' Sapper's view, I was pointing to situations we're all aware of (sub-prime, Northern Rock etc)to explain the difficulties some people are in. So I offered evidence for the difficulties). I was expecting Sapper to counter with evidence for his own assertion. There was none except to say that my evidence was really down to the government. And he offered no evidence, data, prooof at all for his opinion of the state of the UK economy.

So i think I have offered evidence for doubting the truth of his statement.

Guest Appaloosa Lady,

I don't hate anyone here or anywhere.

i can be annoyed by what someone says without disliking that someone in the slightest. I distinguish between the view and the opinion-holder, no prob.

I look forward, too, to a time when it's "WE". A situation I, too, look forward to.

While we have separate organisations for directors (IoD), business (CBI), and working people (TUC); and when there are tax havens and tax exiles; and other things; then we might start to be able to talk of "WE". And when we don't have a party-for-businee and a party-for-working-people.

While we all have international investors who move their money about the world in a way independant of the interests of any but themselves (no "WE" there), then I, alas, see little prospect of "WE".

Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 05:43 AM

Way too much hatred in this thread, same as out here on the streets of the UK.

We truly need to find another way to get this country back on it's feet. And I'm talking spiritually here, not politicially, because until the divisive hatred is turned into non-divisie love, it won't matter WHO is in 'power'.

The British people have to heal themselves first, before they can heal their country. And we can't do that whilst we continue to see each other as 'class' or 'them and us'

There is only 'WE' and 'WE' need to move forward, together.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 08:38 PM

And just what hard evidence did she adduce, Ivor, to convince you that her interpretation was of greater merit than Sapper's?

After all it was you that rubbished his opinion without adducing any hard evidence yourself, then had the cheek to say he was not a gentleman.

Don T.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 11:25 AM

i Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82 - PM
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:06 PM

Autolycus, the UK ecconomy is in shite state


On Any Questions (BBC radio, 4 public figures answering questions from the audience),
Ruth Lea, the well known socialist - sorry, that should have read "the well-known conservative economist, now at the Institute for Directors" (obviously socialist), said that consumer spending was currently rising, unemployment falling, and she didn't expect a recession in the UK economy, just a slowing.

   Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 12:08 PM

Nor by bosses
not giving a shit about workers,
thinking them all to be near-layabouts who the bosses have to treat like children,
stealing their good ideas about work,
thinking their employees are inferiors or idiots (who it's no use explain stuff to),
highly unwilling to let them share in improvements in the business (employees being thought of mostly as merely costs on the balance sheet, to be kept down),
not nurturing and bringing on ability

et cetera.

Not that I think any of this is universal. It's not negligible either.


And stiiiiiiiiiiillllllllllllllll no evidence, hard scientific evidence for the state of the UK economy. None.

A conservative is someone who a) tries to frighten you, and then b) rells you who's to blame for it.

Your "definition" of Socialism is bleedin'-obviously a conservative, non-objective definition. Try the dictionary. Gives a different one from yours. Wonder why. Perhaps those people at Oxford and Chambers and Websters and all the others are misbegotten commies

Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 07:39 AM

Richard, yet again you have it wrong. The workers who went on strike WERE the one who were sacked.

Click here

"Over the succeeding days they were joined by others until by the end of August there were 137 strikers out of a workforce of around 480. The strikers duly formed their own Grunwick Strike Committee (GSC) and announced that they would not return to work unless and until Grunwick recognised their newly adopted trade union. In response George Ward declared that the strikers should consider themselves dismissed and simply hired some more workers."

So when did 137 out of 480 become a majority? Or don't a majority, when they go against the Socialist dogma of the day, count?

As for New Labour NOT being Socialist, surely is this another case of "Socialism is what the Socialist says it is?" There are even so called Socialist who, despite over 50years of mutual support, now try to deny that the USSR was even Socialist in the first place!

I believe the theory goes, "Socialism is the perfect state. If true Socialism were to be implimented, then it could not fail to succeed. Therefore, ANY so called Socialist state that does fail, could not really have been Socialist in the first place."

As for the '50s and '60s being destroyed by capitalism, bollocks! Donkey Jacket Trades Unionism destroyed more jobs than any capitalist. In the face of competition from overseas many of the heavy industries had to reorganise or go under.
A prime example of one that didn't being the shipyards, destroyed by demarkation disputes that saw walk outs over issues as trivial, as in the case of Cammel Laird, as who "twanged" the chalk string when marking out a piece of steel plate!

I am not trying to say that Capitalism is perfect, far from it, there have been some horrendous mistakes made. But the relationship between workers and bosses must be one of mutual respect and trust. This relationship can not be built up in an atmosphere poisoned by Marxist lies and dogma.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 07:02 PM

Hatred? You betcha! I grew up in a wonderful country in the 50s and 60s, and I saw capitalism destroy it all.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 07:01 PM

Oh, and wrong again Sapper, the "New Labour" party has not even been nominally socialist since losing Clause 4.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 06:59 PM

Wrong again Sapper - the counts you have do not include the workers who got sacked.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:16 PM

No evidence then. You're not a gentleman, then, sir?

The unions used to be the whole problem, Maggie clipped their wings, and we still have problems. Conclusion?

Your last was a manifest attempt to re-write history.

The responsibility for the present crisis is with the banks, and their greed. Even they aren't saying it was the government's fault.

And , true get-the-government-off-our-backs conservatives as they are, they're expecting the dreaded government to come to their aid. The useless,useless government. Suddenly it has a value. Hurrah.

Angry? Me? Nah.


Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:57 PM

"Oh, so nothing to do with the US sub-prime fiasco, Northern Rock's selling practices, and the domino effect consequent upon a closely-interlocking system then?"

Whilst exacerbated by the sub-prime fiasco, the Northern Rock farce was allowed to develop by the policies of our current Socialist Prime Minister.
I just that God that Maggie clipped the Unions' wings otherwise we'd be in an even worst mess than we were in in '79.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:53 PM

Goik, The law is that a menber of a trade union is assumed to agree to pay a "Political Levy," in effect a donation to the Labour Party, unless he signs a declaration that he wishes to "opt out."
After signing such a declaration, it can take up to a year before it takes effect.

There is no necessity to donate the levy to charity.

As the member has to be a positive "Opt Out," there are a lot of members who do not support the Socialists who are still paying simply because they have either not been advised or simple inertia.

At least the situation is better than it was during the period of the now gone and very much unlamented Closed Shop when belonging to a Trade Union was often a condition of being able to get a job in the first place.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:50 PM

Autolycus, the UK ecconomy is in shite state because of the mess the Socialist Labour party has got us into.




Oh, so nothing to do with the US sub-prime fiasco, Northern Rock's selling practices, and the domino effect consequent upon a closely-interlocking system then?

Everything to do with dastardly unions then? Or immigrants? Or benefit cheats?

Nothing to do with the estimated $17 TRILLION currently in tax havens thru tax evasion ?


I think it would be gentlemanly of you to give chapter-and-verse aka evidence, for saying the UK economy is in a shite state. ( I mean, anyone can make assertions)


   Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:34 PM

I don't remember when they changed the law, but it wasn't awfully long ago that it was changed to allow a union member to ask that the part of his/her dues that go to the Labour Party should instead go to a charity, or some such organisation. However I believe that he may NOT elect to send that part of his dues to another political party.
So that's all very fair and equal then isn't it?

G

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:31 PM

Must admit Ruth that the current mess the Socialists have got us into has been exacerbated by the US.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:30 PM

"One would have to be pretty far to the right to consider New Labour the "Socialist Labour Party".

Why? Just because it is not "Your" sort of socialist party does not make it less socialist. Given that the Left has always been renowned for it's internicene warfare, this is only what one would expect.

I suppose you will now try to tell me that the USSR, despite over 50y of support from the British Labour Movement until it's demise, was not really Socialist!

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:24 PM

"Socialist Labour party"

When was that then? Somehow missed that.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:22 PM

"UK ecconomy is in shite state because of the mess the Socialist Labour party has got us into."

You what?!!!

One would have to be pretty far to the right to consider New Labour the "Socialist Labour Party".

Surely it's the American economy which is currently dragging the rest of the world down with it. Any dodgy practices replicated by UK banks were certainly not committed in the spirit of Socialism.

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:06 PM

Autolycus, the UK ecconomy is in shite state because of the mess the Socialist Labour party has got us into.

as for wearing blinkers, I am not the one trying to rewrite history!

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: autolycus
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM

Warning. Yet again no bile in this post anyway.
As I say elsewhere, the unions have been cowed and submissive for a quarter of a century, and look what's happening to the economy.

We'll take off our socialist blinkers, if you take off your conservative ones, sapper.

Deal?

Ivor

Subject: RE: UK betrayed too.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:56 PM

"
After all every worker unionised means more funds for the Labour [sic] Party. "

This isn't necessarily true. When you join a union, you're given the choice whether to pledge part of your subs to the Labour Party or not - at least you could with my union, which is a very big one.