Mocking tone of 60s folk scare

Subject: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: GUEST,30-button
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 08:58 AM

Thanks to Pandora radio, I've been revisiting a lot of 60s Folk Scare music I haven't heard in decades.

What's surprised me, and what I guess I missed when I was a teenager listening to this stuff, is how so much of it mocked the traditions groups were supposedly helping perpetuate.

You hear it in the live performance recordings, in particular; the studio recordings generally seem to take the traditions more seriously.

Wondering what others think.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:24 AM

Interesting subject - but I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean. I never heard the term Folk Scare before, though that may just be my own ignorance. By "groups" do you mean outfits like the Kingston Trio? Deliberate parodies or unintentional ones? Etc.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:28 AM

>Interesting subject - but I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean. I >never heard the term Folk Scare before, though that may just be my own >ignorance. By "groups" do you mean outfits like the Kingston Trio? >Deliberate parodies or unintentional ones? Etc.

Sorry to be unclear. "Folk Scare" = the 60s folk boom. And yes, the Kingston Trio is a good example. On many traditional songs, they hammed it up to the point of outright mockery, it seems to me. I heard a lot of these groups live in the 60s, and never paid attention to that, but listening to them now, thanks to Pandora, it's sorta slapped me across the face.

Or maybe I'm just getting old and crotchety.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:49 AM

I think we're ALL getting old and crotchety! You have to be, in order to remember back that far ;-)

Trouble is, I haven't listened to that stuff in years - no, decades; and when I did I was only a kid and just sort of liked it uncritically. (And to be fair, it provided a string which pulled me towards all sorts of more serious traditional music - the same with Irish: I started out hearing plastic paddywhackery on the radio because that's all there was in my area, but it enticed me to follow on and seek out the real thing.)

Then the folk-phase passed and moved on, and so did I (though I still love the genre and always will). And now I don't have anything to judge those old performances by, unless I go back to my ancient recordings - all of which are on vinyl, natch, which I can no longer play. But I certainly wasn't aware of deliberate mockery at the time, and just sort of swallowed it all whole, glad of anything that was an alternative to the Top 40.

You could put it down to commercialisation, undoubtedly, but without that there wouldn't have been a Music Biz - which means I wouldn't have been exposed to even the little folk I did manage to hear, coming as I did from a middle-class urban neighbourhood where the influences tended to be whatever you got from radio or TV (though my mother did play classical music on the piano - that was an influence too).   

PS: In spite of my European spellings (I've spent most of my adulthood in England and Ireland) I grew up in a suburb in central California.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: GUEST,John of Elsie`s Band
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:57 AM

Dear Bonnie,
             Completely off the subject. Do you recall doing Elsie`s with Packie umpteen yearas ago?
                                                    John

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 12:00 PM

At least I'm not alone. The Folk boom of the 60s successfully turned me off folk music for a decade.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 12:04 PM

Hi John - I probably will remember if you can tell me where Elsie's was. Are we talking about a folk club?

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: GUEST,John of Elsie`s Band
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 12:12 PM

Dear Bonnie,
            It is our "Sing and Play" nights at "Elsie`s", "The Queens Arms", Cowden Pound near Edenbridge , Kent. Packy as per usual, you on stringed harp.
                                                 John

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 12:41 PM

Cowden Pound - yes!! I sure do. Absolutely brilliant place - is it still going? Think I was also there with Tabster another night (though not as booked guests) and we presented the lucky world with our premiere of Come Write Me Down. Please tell me Elsie's is still there!

To keep this at least remotely thread-related: I first heard of The Coppers (whose song CWMD is) when I was a college student in Boston, playing in the coffeehouses, from another folkie enthusiast. And the coffeehouse thing was a direct result of my having learned to play guitar and sing things like "Tom Dooley" and "Today" from listening to the commercial folk acts during that boom time. (And yes.. I have progressed since then...)

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Beer
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 12:55 PM

Isn't this Mudcat Great!!
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Rog Peek
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 01:18 PM

Don't knock it. I was 15 in 1960 and grew up oblivious to folk music of pretty well any kind. Of course, over the years I have broadened my interest beyond that, but I still enjoy listening to that hammed up stuff and am grateful for the direction in which it pointed me.

Rog

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 01:53 PM

Mocking tone? I wouldn't say it was a mocking tone. Mocking doesn't last. I think some of those early groups were certainly having fun with the music, and were responsible in large measure for the renaissance of folk music from the late '50s to the mid 60s. Of course there was a certain tension between popularizers and the more ethnically pure singers, as the Clancy Bros. ironically noted in their Carnegie Hall album.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Peace
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:00 PM

Mocking tone? IMO, no.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Mark Ross
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:02 PM

The best part of the Great Folk Music Scare was that it inspired a lot of us to go looking for the music from the true vine. Those who did and found it left the pop-folk pap way behind. I got to see Peter Yarrow a couple of months ago in Portland OR. Never having heard him live before, I was impressed by his performance(even if he was a bit anal about the sound, probably drove the sound engineer nuts), but I would still rather listen to Dave Van Ronk. The 1st show I saw at the age of 14 was Rev. Gary Davis, Brownie McGhee & Sonny Terry, Mississippi John Hurt, and Sister Rosetta Tharpe, for 2 bucks at Hunter College. My folks said I couldn't go(we lived in Queens and they didn't want me wandering around Manhattan late at night), I went anyway and got grounded for weeks(it was worth it).
The point being that without the Scare I wouldn't have had a chance to hear people like that at such a young age.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:08 PM

The Clancys were huge hams, but I don't think that they were mocking the music. It's just that musical styles were different from ours.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: topical tom
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 03:16 PM

At the time I did enjoy some of the music of the 60's folk scare.The Kingston Trio's M. T. A. comes to mind.This Land Is My Land, the Canadian version by The Travellers, I also liked, though it was the same melody as Woody Guthrie's.I remember watching the tv show Hootenany, desperately hoping to see some better, less sappy folk music.I came to hate the New Christy Minstrels and The Serendipity Singers.
I found that there was not much substance to most of the music. It was all cheery and feel-good, too much so.It resembled too much the sugary pop music of the day.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 05:46 PM

It was the sugary pop music of the day.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Peace
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 06:15 PM

Ya know, I just re-read the thread title and I have to admit something: I think I musta missed it. When did it happen and how did it present itself? (I'm guessing it was that party in Brooklyn. Anyone know?)

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Peace
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 06:30 PM

I re-read what I wrote and it is unclear. Please allow me to get it right. I went to a party in Brooklyn--or maybe the Easter Townships. The party lasted for 3 1/2 months and I figure it (the folk scare) happened then, thus explaining away my lack of memory with regard to it all, whatever it all was. There. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 07:23 PM

I had the same feeling a few months back as what started this thread - I was listening to one of the earlier Chad Mitchell Trio albums and formed the definite impression that they were mocking the very music they were singing. I guess they figured if they put it over straight, they'd lose their audience - and, as entertainers, their audience was important to them. I think the Trio "grew up" as their audiences did, and the mocking is gone on the later albums. And even the earlier albums introduced me & others to some very good songs.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Joe_F
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 08:32 PM

Somehow, I sang my way thru that whole decade without getting scared. I liked Joan Baez & (for a while) Bob Dylan. I discovered Ewan MacColl, who has worn well. I remember the Kingston Trio with a certain amount of fondness, tho I never bought any of their records. I turned up my nose at The Limeliters. In short, it was just another decade, with a lot to enjoy & a lot more to ignore.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 08:35 PM

Back then folks did what they thought they had to in order to get noticed and, at the same time, make a living. One thing led to another. Sometimes that made tasteful and/or O.K. music----sometimes not. Often it turned into a parody of itself trying to out do what the other one had done. A rather fascinating dynamic me thinks.

Sometimes, in it's outrageousness, that could look mocking.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 08:52 PM

Dick,
I don't know a lot about your involvement in the 1960s, but I am thinking that you, being a manager/agent then, you had to deal with the image of what artists thought it meant to be a folksinger then---and all that that might've entailed. I'm sure it was rather unfair to you then since many, I suspect, following Woody's and Joe Hill's examples, sabotaged your good efforts and best intentions. I imagine it might've put me off of folk music for a decade too---or more.

I'm just guessing, of course, but I'd surely like to hear what went down then for you!!??

With great respect,

Art

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:06 PM

Being very young when 'The Scare' hit, music up until then had seemed like some great calling to be learned by sweating profusely over ancient notation piano books. I vaguely remember someone mentioning one could learn to 'play by ear'....a vastly 'inferior' approach. This kept me intimidated until I heard my older sister's 'Beatles' LP my cousin had sent her from Germany where he was stationed in the Army. WOW! And none of them could read music. So, as I started to learn guitar the sounds of 'The Scare' were the things I started to figure out on my own. I owe a great deal of my approach to guitar playing to guys like Eric Darling, Tommy Smothers, Bob Gibson, Tommy Tedesco(Jimmie'Honeycomb'Rodgers' guitarist). I recall what a HUGE deal it was to find out the intro to 'Walk Right In' was played on a 12 STRING!! I'd spent alot of time trying to do it in OCTAVES ala Wes Mongomery...I didn't even know a 12 string existed! Yeah, I was a LITTLE uninformed in those days.

I'm grateful for 'The Scare' as it made music accessible to me in a way artist's like Frank Sinatra, Ernie Ford, Nat Cole, Ray Charles, etc. couldn't because of all the orchestration. It was 'stripped down' and easily learned. It wasn't until I became an experienced musician in my own right did I come to appreciate the work of those mentioned above.

Now that I think of it Lonnie Donegan had a hit w/Does Your Chewing Gum...I sang it over and over on the playground...like a mantra. His influence was/is greatly underappreciated here in the States.

Sorry, thread drift. It's of late I've come to realize as hokey as some of those 'Scare' songs were, they were my first love in music and will always have a special place in my heart.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Peace
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:13 PM

Guest,Jeff--that was beautiful.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Peace
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:13 PM

Just for you on YOUTUBE.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:23 PM

The mocking tone was an affectation of of the times, and not only in folk music--perhaps a convergence of cold war tensions and post-McCarthy suspicion--there was a tendency to posturing and pretense; people wanted to seem to be part of what was happening, and if it turned out that it wasn't really what was happening, they needed to be able to disown it quickly.

It was a time of feigned sophistication--Being irreverent, and dissmissive gave one an air of sophistication--

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:15 PM

Peace...THAT was beautiful! Can't thank you enough.

The funny thing is I finally came to the realization the song was played in Ab, but put a capo on(one of those old Hamilton pieces of crap)and did the song in G position w/a flatpick. It NEVER occurred to me the 12 string was tuned down a whole step and the lead part is MUCH easier to play in A formation. DUH!! BTW, I've got some woodshedding to do...when I'm done I'm going to post it on my myspace page in your honor. Vocals and all.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Peace
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:21 PM

I was nuts about that song. Thank you for the very pleasant memories.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:39 PM

Art (and anyone else that might be innarested)--my brief stint as a manager/agent (a part of my life I prefer not to dwell upon) was certainly impacted by the pop-folk boom. At the time I was trying to book people who, I felt, were carrying on a tradition that affected and moved me greatly. The shift in demand to more pop acts largely impelled me to chuck the business.

   What really turned me off was that the "folk" music of the day had become very far divorced from the elements that attracted me to the music when I first encountered it in the 40s--honesty and passion, IMO, were being traded for slickness.

    I must confess that my returning interest in the music should probably have occurred a couple of years earlier than it did. I missed out on some of the great stuff that Friends of Old Time Music were producing, and I missed the early days of the British invasion.

    In any case, I'm not sorry, overall, that I left...and I'm very happy to have returned.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: GUEST,John of Elsie`s Band
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 05:59 AM

Dear Bonnie,
             Yes, we are still there. "Elsie`s Band, same pub, same venue format, same "facilities", better sausage rolls. Elsie is still the tenant( 83 now) but has good people to man the shop on her limited opening hours. Look up www.elsiesband.com to see our progamme till August.
                                                      John

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: GUEST,30_button
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 08:33 AM

>The mocking tone was an affectation of of the times, and not only in >folk music--perhaps a convergence of cold war tensions and post-McCarthy >suspicion--there was a tendency to posturing and pretense; people wanted >to seem to be part of what was happening, and if it turned out that it >wasn't really what was happening, they needed to be able to disown it >quickly.

>It was a time of feigned sophistication--Being irreverent, and >dissmissive gave one an air of sophistication--


Yes! That explains a lot of it.

Also Art's explanation that groups did what they needed to do to get noticed, and it sometimes got out of hand.

That said, the commercialization/mockery/parody aspects drove ME to look more diligently for what I regarded as authentic. In my case, that was a dual focus on early and CHicago blues on one hand and dance music on the other -- an interest that continues unabated 40 years after the first and last time I saw the Kingston Trio!

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 09:04 AM

So, one way or another, it was a driving force - some towards, some away. But an impetus all the same -

John - SO glad to hear it! Will try to call in next time I'm in the UK (based in Ireland these days) -

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 11:45 AM

I admit to having used the term "Great Folk Scare" on rare occasion. When I did, as I recall it, it was usually in a conversation with a "purist." Looking back on it, there is a certain arrogance about the term, usually used as a pejorative way. My likes and dislikes of music and performers during the forties, fifties and sixties was eclectic. Folk was one genre I spent a lot of time with, both listening and performing. I took college classes in folk ballads, history of folk music and the like. I enjoyed singers and groups who were a bit raw and unrefined and some who were very much rehearsed and arranged. In the end, I like what I like and apologize to no one if my tastes don't happen to coincide with theirs.

For those who have spent decades researching and performing "classic" folk music, I applaud your dedication and single-mindedness. I understand some of the disdain you may have for those who don't appreciate or take the music as seriously as they do. But, at times, your commentary begins to take on the sound of the intellectuals' rants about the "great unwashed."

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Art Thieme
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 02:57 PM

Dick,
Thanks for that. I think I felt a lot of what you are alluding to. Once, a while ago, I asked in this forum about Pat Foster, whose balladeer style of approaching his found songs always appealed to me in the same way that some of Bob Gibson and Harry Haywire McClintock and Jim Ringer and and Ellen Steckert and Jimmie Rodgers and Vivienne Richman did. Your response to my asking about Foster indicated a less than pleasant experience for you in dealing with him.

It was strange, but maybe not, when I realized I had to separate some of my favorite singers contributions to our folk world from them as personal entities whose feet of clay were all too apparent on way too many occasions once I got to know them. That I could make that separation was always, I thought, a good way to see this world in general. Once again, the paradox. The two sides to every coin! (Every jogger kills many insects as they run...)

All the best,

Art

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Mar 08 - 10:38 PM

Back in the "great 1800's", Live Theatre had a performance style, somewhat reflected in some of the very early silent movies, that today is not appreciated, similar to what was said about the 'Folk Scare'. The world keeps changing.

What M.Ted - 30 Mar 08 - 10:23 PM said is also a part of the then times, too.

I remember well that during that time period, there was the 'surfer music' with the still fondly remembered 'instrumentals' (how many can YOU remember?), and also the 'novelty songs' - often 'one hit wonders'. Can YOY remember 'One eyed, one horned, flying purple people eater', 'Love potion No9', 'The Witch Doctor", etc? :-)

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 12:09 AM

I've heard the "great folk scare" reference any number of times; in my own experience, it has generally been uses as fairly gentle, slightly rueful, humor by veterans who started out in those days. I've picked up at least a couple of apparent implications: for one, there were those who really were wound up about the dangerous influence of "commie-pinko" folksingers. For another, folk music was something that "poked it's head up" enough to draw the attention of the general population to music that actually had content, but soon everyone was able to relax and stop thinking again.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Rowan
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 01:04 AM

Can YOY remember 'One eyed, one horned, flying purple people eater', 'Love potion No9', 'The Witch Doctor", etc?

Got them all, and my daughters sing them with relish.

While I was around in the 60s and was keen on Odetta etc (I even helped start MUFolk in '65) I'd never heard of the "great folk scare" reference until reading this thread. Perhaps Melbourne really was a backwater at the time but we didn't think so.

But I can identify with some of the comments posted above.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Judy Dyble
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:27 AM

I don't think I've ever come across that phrase before.
What a sad thing to call a time of the beginnings of a lot of people's interest in music of any sort. Listening to and enjoying music comes from the strangest beginnings, one of my early favourites was 'You're a Pink Toothbrush, I'm A Blue Toothbrush' by Max Bygraves (I can still remember most of it)and from that I went on to all of those bands and musicians mentioned here, (and I really liked The Limeliters' they had fabulous voices)and from there to a whole eclectic bunch of stuff

Look what strange pathways I've gone down since then to end up where I am now. It's the sidetracks and the byways of music that make it all so fascinating, no matter where you start.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: GUEST,30_button
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 07:36 AM

Well, maybe I shouldn't have used the phrase "folk scare" in a subject line with "mocking."

A local (Washington DC) folk DJ used the phrase regularly in the 80s and 90s, referring to the late 50s and 60s folk boom. I still hear it used periodically by local folk performers, never disparagingly, just humorously -- a kind of insiders joke among folkies.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Mark Ross
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 09:30 AM

I think that the "Great Folk Music Scare of the '60's" came from the fertile brain of none other than U.Utah Phillips,The Golden Voice of the Great Southwest(U.U.P, the G.V.G.S.W.). At least that's where I first heard it.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: mike gouthro
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 11:34 AM

I found this link:

http://zipcon.net/~highroad/folkscare.html

I first heard the term "folk scare" in recent years but I remember "folk boom" or "golden era" starting in the late 1960's to describe the early/mid sixties folk period.

I guess "folk scare" implies some mockery of those who thought of activist acoustic music as a major force in turning the tide on civil rights, the bomb, and Vietnam.

Likely, most of the listening public was instead influenced (lulled) by the "folk salve" of the Brothers Four, Serendipity Singers and other Might Wind style music.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 01:11 PM

The first time I heard the term used was on a Martin Mull album in the '70's. "Remember the Folk Scare of the 60's - whew, that was a close one!" - and then he went on to do a parody fo some sort.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 01:17 PM

Personally I regard it as the high point of the folk revival - for its inclusiveness and its creativity. Nearly all my favourite albums are from that era - Frost and Fire, The Blues Project, Freewheelin' Dylan, Bert Jansch's first album, Paul Simon Songbook, Robert Johnson, Sam Charters The Country Blues......If it were all phoney baloney, I'll settle for that. Ireckon half of today's stars would have to run a long mile to catch up with that lot.

Also there weren't people going round telling you - that's not folk music. I think when you exclude great music from our movement because of some idiot's ideas, you weaken the whole. The next thing is that the record companies and radio aren't interested in the idea of folk music and all the 'stars' of folk music are lining up to play in subsidised gigs - rather than it being worthwhile for a promoter to put on concerts or run a folk club.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:21 PM

Upon first hearing the Kingston Trio, I bought a guitar, formed a college trio and became a "Folkie." Yes, the KT and others (Chad M, Limelighters, etc) were commercial and a bit glitzy, but they introduced me to people like Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger. From them I learned what music SHOULD sound like.
   Now, I can stand before my college biology class and talk about Woody and Huntington Disease. Then, when at best, only two student out of 60 say they have ever heard of him, I can run to my office, bring back my guitar and do a couple of Woody (or Pete, or Bobby Burns) for the group. No one should graduate from college without knowning something about folk music!

P.S. Though I've been a mudcat fan for years, this is my first posting. Thanks to all ----

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:26 PM

Great post, Guest. It was the same for me too. Don't be shy about posting more (make up a name of some kind though, so you're not zapped).

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Murrbob
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 03:34 PM

Thanks, Bonnie -- I just did.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Rowan
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 05:02 PM

Welcome to the mob (uncapitalised), Mrrbob.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 06:09 PM

Welcome aboard, Murrbob!

Interesting observation, GUEST,30-button—and "right on the button," I would say. It got me to thinking a lot about those "glorious days of yesteryear" and the following are some of my observations from that time. Pretty long-winded, but since I'm a Geezer, I figure people expect me to ramble on a bit.

The "folk boom," the "folk scare," or whatever you want to call it, did indeed introduce a lot of people to folk music who might not have become interested otherwise, but it was a bit of a mixed blessing to some singers who were already into folk music before, say, late 1958 when the Kingston Trio's recording of "Tom Dooley" was released. This forms a fairly good marker point for the onset of folk music's entry into the realm of "pop music," although the early recordings of The Weavers in the very late 1940s and early 1950s ("On Top of Old Smoky," "Goodnight Irene," etc.), before they were blacklisted, sparked the interest of a number of people.

Although as a teen-ager, I was already familiar with Burl Ives (radio program) and Susan Reed (slightly dopey B movie, good singing by her), I got actively interested (bought my first guitar and started learning songs) in 1952, and soon after, heard a live concert by a local singer named Walt Robertson (television show, two records on Folkways). That's when I got really interested. I met Walt a few days after the concert and hit him up for guitar lessons.

There were about a dozen people in Seattle's University District who were into folk music, including Sandy Paton (later, founder of Folk-Legacy Records), who was living here at the time. There were others, not habitués of the U. District, who appeared a bit later. At the time, folk music was something sort of esoteric, and if you mentioned folk music to most people, they thought you were talking about Country and Western or "Modern Western Swing" (Sons of the Pioneers, Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys, etc.).

By the mid-Fifties I had a fair handle on the guitar, had learned a good batch of songs, and was starting to get gigs playing for groups like "The Overlake Friends of the Library," the Washington State Museum of History and Industry, at a couple of arts festivals, and got hired to do some house concerts, even though we didn't call them "house concerts" back then. Some classical music buffs, especially ones who were interested in "early music," considered a concert by a folk singer in an informal setting (big living room) to be a form of "chamber music." Or like listening to a troubadour or minstrel sing songs and spin stories.

Coffee houses began to appear in Seattle, and I started singing regularly in one of them in 1958, a few months before the KT's record of "Tom Dooley" was released. I moved to another coffee house shortly thereafter, opened by a theater owner who presented art movies and European films. This particular coffee house was a nice, clean place (your elbows didn't stick to the table), more like a non-alcoholic night club with a bit of a "bohemian" atmosphere, and it often drew the after-show or after-concert crowd. Although the audience was mainly college students, later in the evening it wasn't all that unusual to see a few tuxes and formals in the audience.

I frequently read posts here on Mudcat from some people who say that the "pop-folk" groups created an audience for folk music, but my experience tends to dispute that a bit. It most certainly enlarged the audience, but it also tended to change the nature of that audience. Into the pre-existing audience came a bunch of people whose first acquaintance with folk music was derived from the records of groups like the Kingston Trio and The Limeliters.

When they came to the coffee houses to hear local singers such as myself, they arrived with a lot of preconceptions of what folk music was all about. This was where I first noticed the "mocking" aspect of this sudden increase in popularity of folk music. My purpose was to present the songs in an entertaining manner, but I took the songs seriously. My sets were a good mix of funny and serious, slow and fast, loud and soft. But I didn't spoof the songs themselves. I didn't make fun of the material I was presenting.

But this was often what the new folks in the audiences seem to expect. More than once, I'd get a request of a particular song—say "The Wreck of the John B," which I learned from Carl Sandburg's "American Songbag" well before the Kingston Trio's recording of it came out—I'd sing the song, then hear the requester grump that I "didn't sing it right." Which is to say, I hadn't sung it the way the Kingston Trio did.

Here's a graphic example of what I'm talking about. What the Kingston Trio does to one of the verses in "Tom Dooley:"

I met her on the mountain,
'Twas there I took her life.
I met her on the mountain,
And stabbed her with my Boy Scout knife!

Mocking the song. Making a big joke of the whole thing.

The pop-folk groups tended to do this a lot. And/or do a lot of "prettying up" of songs to present them in a popular music style. Interesting to note that when Bob Nelson (Deckman) and I (both of us deeply interested in folk music) went to the San Francisco Bay area in 1959, we learned that the clubs such as the Hungry i and the Purple Onion that presented the pop folk groups like the Kingston Trio and The Limeliters weren't interested in folk music per se, they wanted comedy acts. In fact, Bob and I saw the first professional engagement of the Smothers Brothers at the Purple Onion.

Now some of these groups were darned fine entertainers. But I just couldn't bring myself to screw up a great song—say, a 400-year-old Child ballad—just to get laughs. If that's what fame and fortune was going to cost me, I decided that fame and fortune were too darned expensive. Bob agreed. So we came back to Seattle where we already had an established audience who—like Mister Rogers—liked us just the way we were.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 06:35 PM

Often I have heard it used as a way of dismissing mostly all that went down in an era. I spent the 1960s learning my craft. My recordings were made and issued in the '70s, 80's and '90s. Even if the term was tongue-in-cheek sometimes, I did resent it being used to negate an era that I knew had some serious keepers of the various flames.

Fred Holstein used it for a laugh.It allowed people to giggleknowingly and feel superior. Freddy probably got it from Bruce Phillips--as Mark Ross mentioned. It was a way to set the in-group apart from the out-group. Both of those groups existed for recognition from the other! ;-)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: GUEST,30_button
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 08:03 PM

>Now some of these groups were darned fine entertainers.
>But I just couldn't bring myself to screw up a great
>song—say, a 400-year-old Child ballad—just to get laughs.

Don, you made the point I was aiming for in my original post, but far more eloquently and with the weight of your experience.

I spent my high school years with the CMT, Kingstons and even -dare I say it?-- the New Christy Minstrels. I still get a charge when I hear my old favorites. But hearing so many songs anew, thanks to Pandora, I have started to realize how much of the shtick of these groups was parody, or mockery, or whatever you want to call it. As you said, they were still good entertainers; as I said, I still can enjoy their music. As numerous people have said, hearing them led many people into genuine quests for good folk music.

But I think the mockery issue is real and worth thinking about.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 07:15 PM

The people who popularized folk music such as Joan Baez and Judy Collins as well as The Weavers and many other show biz oriented folk groups were talented singers and players.
They were also talented show business entertainers. Many of them studied hard to pursue their craft. Bud and Travis come to mind. The Limelighters and the KT also.

I see folk music in a larger perspective now. There is a connection between those who
popularized folk music and their traditional sources. In a sense, it was all folk music because the appreciation for the medium was there from the beginning.

Burl Ives was a seminal influence as a singer with a trained voice who communicated
a simple, direct and often informative approach to folk music. The same is true for
Richard Dyer-Bennett and the unique Josh White. They set the standard by which the
ensuing Sixties Folk "Scare" would be judged. Pete Seeger was a trained musician who
hid that admirably. His musical training allowed him to be one of the most prolific
songleaders and disseminators of folk music that ever lived.

There were the Mighty Wind type groups but even viewing that movie, I was impressed
at how well those folks performed even in jest.

Lee Hays used to complain about Lou Gottleib of the Limelighters because he thought
Lou was making fun of folk music. Lou on the contrary had a great regard for it and a
talent for comedy. For a comedian, there is nothing sacrosanct so I think Lee was being
a little fussy here. Why shouldn't the affectations and excesses of those who wear torn blue jeans and scraggly hair and beards be exempt from humor? I think Lou's comment about "the autonomous C chord" had humorous relevancy.

None of the very talented people I encountered in the show business world who sang folk music did so with any intention of mocking but on the contrary, they did what they did
because they really liked folk music and wanted to be a part of it.

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 08 - 07:37 PM

"they did what they did
because they really liked folk music and wanted to be a part of it."

That about says it all for me and, coming from someone who has serious "scare" cred, belies the omphaloskeptics who are seeing something that simply is not there.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 03:28 AM

I would not have known anything about "serious" folk music if I had not first been exposed to "showbiz" folk music during my teenage years.

After that, I went through numerous periods of rejecting and mocking music that I "used to" enjoy, whenever I had the next revelation of something new (or, often enough, something old, usualy more subtle than my previous enthusiasm).

It took a degree of maturity ~ adulthood ~ to admit my own love for all kinds of songs from various genres that I had adopted as favorites during different eras.

Incidentally, I had never encountered the phrase "Folk Scare" until fairly recently, wihtin the confines of Mudcat. I was never particularly frightened, myself...

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 10:11 AM

Let's not forget that the all the clowning around, silly songs, and goofy routines (as well as the matching outfits) became instantly lame when Dylan hit the scene--after that, performers had to be "serious", often to the point of despair--

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 11:41 AM

I get the feeling that there are some who feel that the overlap between comedy and musical performance was a bad thing in the way it mainfested itself back in the "scare" days. (See comments above about the club scene in SF, etc.)

As a counterargument, I'd like to add a positive comment about the Smothers Brothers, who may have been comedians first and musicains second, presenting their comedy routine under the guise of putting on a folk-music act, but who were pretty good musicians and ~ more importantly, to my mind ~ used their popularity and fame to present quite a few more serious folk artists (politically serious as well as musically serious) to a very wide TV audience. The last vestiges of showbiz blacklisting were still alive until their courageous policies pretty much ended that evil business once and for all.

It's also worth mentioning that Noel "Paul" Stookey started his performing career as a standup comic and emcee working the same Greenwich Village clubs where many folksingers started their careers. Stookey, of coure, became a fairly serious and very successful player and singer as a member of Peter Paul & Mary. PPM were either the most serious of the pop-folk groups or the most popular and entertainment-oriented of the serious folkies, and played a critically large role in bringing the work of Bob Dylan, among others, to worldwide attention.

Also, of course, even among the most serious folk performers, both traditional and contemporary, an ability to provide the audience with comedy (or at least amusement) has always helped. Certainly as a feature of between-songs "patter," but also within the songs themselves. "Talking Blues" numbers, for example, have always provided a context for levity.

Even The Bob himself, harbinger of super-seriousness, had to use a bit of comedy to establish himself. If you read his early press, his stage presence was very often compared to that of Charley Chaplin, a grand master of comic performance.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 01:23 PM

being very serious about folk music is very important.

a well knitted brow says as much about a folksinger as his arran sweater....

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 02:03 PM

Don Firth really nailed the nature of audiences of the late '50's and early '60's well. Our group had an agent who wanted us to "liven up the act" by incorporating more humor and banter, etc. It was what audiences had grown to expect along with the music. You couln't simply sit at a mike and perform songs, you had to be an "act."
Dave Guard, who walked away from the Trio at the height of their success, used to speak of the audiences "clinking their ice cubes in 4/4 time." Many of those same people were the young, mostly post-collegiate jazz fans who considered themselves "hip" and frequently saw their performances through the bottom of a glass of scotch.

Most who got into "show biz" through folk music probably liked the music itself - may even have loved it. They found various ways to use it to their commercial advantage. Many people I met in(and after I left)the business, including the Smothers, Pat Paulsen, Randy Sparks, Nick Reynolds, et al, wanted to make a living with the music and found ways to do just that. It was a commercial career, and I mostly commend them for their success. That approach, it turns out, was not my bag.

Though I no longer perform, the best memories are of "personal" music, in more intimate venues like the old coffee houses and with audiences which share a love of, and have a certain reverence for it. It doesn't pay the bills for most who do it, but is transparently a labor of love.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 04:16 PM

The proble for some of us was that there were a lot of performers who took themselves much more seriously than they did the music. But...de gustibus.

Subject: RE: Mocking tone of 60s folk scare
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 10:27 PM

It's all show biz--and people did (and do) what worked for them. There are always things that even the least talented people can do to get a response from an audience, but it is considerable more difficult to do something with real artistic merit and get the same level of response.

TJ--you know that we are all racking our brains to figure out who you are--